The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

I personally think Pac-Man's really close to the point where he wouldn't need buffs, but just needs one more really, really, small push for him to blossom.

Here's Pac-Man's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1w3ufxwnJoVc4C4dT-YlAVqcaNQEqwvUn_nmjrBCLqHY/viewanalytics

Here's Lucario's poll http://goo.gl/forms/Zy5JYfjmFT
And you can vote for these strange specimens Please don't toss any peanuts at them.

I'll vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

really just needs his smash attacks to come out a bit faster and his up B not to headbonk nearly as easily, and he'll be great in my eyes. Oh, and also his up B shouldn't have nearly that much landing lag.

EDIT:
F-smash: Active frames 22-23,24-25 --> 18-19,20-21 || FAF 55 --> 51 (-4f startup, -1f endlag)
U-smash: FAF 64 --> 60 (-4f endlag)
D-smash: Active frames 19-21 --> 17-19 || FAF 55 --> 52 (-2f startup, -1f endlag)

Voting for . (Hey, don't call them strange, that's mean! Plus, only Diddy Kong would like peanuts.)

I think it's worth mentioning that damage is related to knockback. You made the last hit of Pac-Man's Dair have the same KBK and KBG as the last of Kirby’s, but the last hit of Pac-Man's dair does 6%, while Kirby’s does 2%. This causes Pac-Man's dair to be significantly stronger than Kirby’s (for specifics, Pac-Man's would do about as much knockback at 40% as Kirby’s would at 90%). In other words, it would be nothing like Kirby's Dair, in terms of power anyway, which I assume you were trying to do.

Here's a knockback calculator, enjoy.

Whoops, forgot about that! Yeah, the numbers would probably be much lower, then. Thanks for the calulator BTW, that's really helpful!

 

[Zerp]

I don't think I know enough about Lucario to accurately rate him or give any thoughts. So, uh, I guess I'll abstain.
Here's Lucario's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NXpyRcboBx5qe75nm6-Ul0nZYcBkrejbyzfW7qZdumg/viewanalytics

Here's Duck Hunt Duo's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/BXGCGX1w6I
I'm pretty interested in this since he's the only character I can think off the top my head that might be as neglected as Jigglypuff and Dedede.
Also, here's the *ahem* unique individuals you can vote for.

I wonder how many posts it'll take for anyone to notice.

Edit: Whoops, thanks for pointing that out MarioMeteor, I'm a little clumsy at times, lol.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Since I was unfortunate enough to miss Lucario day again, I'll cover him now, along with Duck Hunt.

Lucario is on the verge of being great. Right now he's good, but he could be better. First of all, give his Aura Sphere the hitstun that it lost a few patches ago. Then cut some lag off of his smash attacks, because his frame data is horse **** considering that he can't kill until he's already half dead. Lastly, give him a more reliable combo starter. Be it down throw or up throw or down tilt, I don't care, but give him something to work with.

As for Duck Hunt, I don't know much about him, but if they're going to buff him, they can start by making his smash attacks not ass.

Voting K. Ro- wait... Voting Cloud.

By the way, Zerp , we already did the Doctor.

 

[Eugene Wang]

There are no glaring flaws in Duck Hunt, just a bunch of mediocre moves that combine to form a low-tier character. I'll refer to DunnoBro's wishlist at https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4cn8r6/duck_hunt_patch_suggestions_tip_he_doesnt_need/ , and add my own:

• Make it so that the knockback direction of the can is dependent on which side of the can the fighter is on.
• Make the can explosion angle lower. Increase its base knockback and knockback growth to compensate.
• Make gunmen tangible so they can't simply be run through.
• Make the weak hit of Dair a moderate meteor smash. Make the strong hit stronger.
• Add an autocancel window to Fair so it yields less landing lag if done out of a short hop.
• Increase the size of the Bair sweet spot.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Oh, Duck Hunt...why are you so bad? You're designed to be a zoning character, but your zoning tools are quite lacking, and you have almost no up close tools to speak of. Technically you have good kill options, but up air and kinda neutral air are the only good ones. Your recovery goes a good distance, but it's so slow without a hitbox that it may be the easiest recovery to gimp. Changes:

F-smash: Hit 1 Angle 5 --> 10 (to make escaping with DI down + tech impossible) || active frames 17-18,23-24,29-30 --> 14-15,20-21,26-27; FAF 67 --> 62 (-3f startup, -2f endlag)
U-smash: FAF 58 --> 55 (-3f endlag) || Hit 3 KBG 112 --> 116
D-smash: Hit 1 angle 165 --> 160 (to make escaping with DI down + tech impossible) || FAF 59 --> 56 (-3f endlag)
D-throw: -2f endlag (Kuro doesn't have current FAF)
F-air: FAF 46 --> 42 (-4f endlag)
B-air: FAF 42 --> 40 (-2f endlag) || KBG 90 --> 95
D-air: Angle 270/70 --> 270 (always a spike) || KBG 80/90 --> 90 (stronger spike)
Trick Shot: FAF 46 --> 42 (-4f endlag)
Clay Shooting: active hitbox 17-xx --> 15-xx (can shoot it 2f earlier) || FAF 66 --> 60 (-6f endlag)
Duck Jump: 1.5x travel speed and distance, less landing lag
Wild Gunman: 71,53,65,89,77 --> 66,48,60,84,72 (all shoot 5f earlier) || FAF 45 --> 42 (-3f endlag)


Voting this time.

 

[Zerp]

Duck Hunt's changes so far with patches have been kinda mediocre so far, they didn't help much at all, I think it'd be better if they focused more on the first hit of his smashes so they link together, made his recovery a bit more safe or at least have longer distance, and make gunman useful, somehow.

Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1EJ--d1BYfYdR59nTySd_o9xgiXraAIT3mlzA6rdfpFQ/viewanalytics

And, here's Robin's poll http://goo.gl/forms/yy048c6HQC

Also here's a little fun fact about Robin: In the German version of Smash, Robin's name is Daraen, but in the German version of Awakening, his name's still defaulted as Robin, they apparently mixed up his name over here for the French, Spanish, and Italian versions, where it's actually Daraen, lol.


Also, here's the refined gentlemen and gentlewomen you can vote for.


I vote for

 

[Eugene Wang]

Some people might complain about Robin's run speed, but at least unlike some other slow characters, Robin can sit in one place, force approaches, and stuff them out. (Falco, Ganondorf, and Dedede intensify)

If he/she needs a buff, just make Elwind's autosnap more generous.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is a decent zoner at the moment, and she only needs a few buffs to be great.

1. Make Elwind snap better to the ledge (flip around animation should start later and last shorter to prevent passing by the ledge).
2. Grab FAF 40,50,47 --> 35,45,42 (-5f) (why does it have so much end lag for its pitiful range?).
3. Make the Levin Sword only count as a "use" when it hits something (otherwise it goes by way too quickly, and it doesn't even make sense that it would be "weakened" when it doesn't hit anything).


Voting Mr. GimR & Watch.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh my god, now I missed Duck Hunt because this thread didn't give me notifications....

Starting to give me depression by this point, ugh.......

I'll probably just show up to say whatever I want instead of the current topic if that's okay?

 

[MarioMeteor]

They really should make it so that Levin Sword only depletes if it hits.

Voting Cirrus Cloud.

 

[Zerp]

Oh my god, now I missed Duck Hunt because this thread didn't give me notifications....

Starting to give me depression by this point, ugh.......

Sorry to hear that.

I'll probably just show up to say whatever I want instead of the current topic if that's okay?

Yeah, that's definitely okay, while I'd prefer that everyone at least gives some focus to the current character of the day, that doesn't mean you guys are barred from discussing anything else balance related, you (and everyone else) are always welcome to discuss any characters you feel like discussing.

Although, I'd really like it if you also talked about the current character too along with whoever you wanted to, even if it's only for a sentence.


Anyways, onto Robin. I don't think Robin's great, but I think he's fine as of right now, around upper-mid or so, perhaps he could get a few more buffs, but I'd prefer he'd not. Maybe he should get some more buffs, but I'm probably too biased against him to accept that, it gets annoying when your desperately waiting for a single buff, end up getting nothing while having to watch some guy get something literally every other patch, over and over again. Dude seriously needs to learn how to share.

Here's Robin's buffs https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1g3g8q1ouW-XNhAbW90AXfeDQ5floisw9FVUrC788KEk/viewanalytics

And here's Cloud's poll http://goo.gl/forms/YT3SwAqpWC
Here's the refined gentlemen and gentlewomen you can vote for.


I vote for Bayonetta.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't really see much that needs fixing for Cloud. The only problem is his recovery, which requires Limit Break to be reliable, and even that can run into a brick wall against edge-guarders. Overall, Cloud is quite viable in the right hands, but his poor recovery is enough to keep him away from the top 5 rankings.

 

[Green Zelda]

Cloud's fine, IMO. He has his strengths and his flaws (bad recovery).
Voting for !

 

[MarioMeteor]

I really do think his last nerfs made no sense. Especially the one to his down smash. Why nerf the one reliable KO move he had that didn't take an episode of Dragon Ball Z to charge?

Voting Fox. FIYYYYURR!

 

[FamilyTeam]

I really do think his last nerfs made no sense. Especially the one to his down smash. Why nerf the one reliable KO move he had that didn't take an episode of Dragon Ball Z to charge?

Voting Fox. FIYYYYURR!

Cloud's Side Smash kills quite well, though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Cloud's Side Smash kills quite well, though.

You won't be hitting anybody with it, though. Takes a whole 19 frames to come out. That's slower than Jigglypuff's smash attacks.

 

[FamilyTeam]

You won't be hitting anybody with it, though. Takes a whole 19 frames to come out. That's slower than Jigglypuff's smash attacks.

It's a tad slow, but it's not necessarily impossible. Like,19 frames is as fast as you'll be reacting to anything in this game. If you factor in 13-16 frames of human reaction time and 6-7 frames of input lag, you'll see you might still be hit by it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

It's a tad slow, but it's not necessarily impossible. Like,19 frames is as fast as you'll be reacting to anything in this game. If you factor in 13-16 frames of human reaction time and 6-7 frames of input lag, you'll see you might still be hit by it.

Not necessarily. If you can fight Little Mac online, you can dodge Cloud's forward smash. There's also the fact that Cloud takes a big step backwards before he does it, so it doesn't have subtlety on its side either. Overall, it's definitely not what I would call a reliable KO move.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Cloud's fine after his nerfs. I don't see anything that needs to be significantly buffed about him besides possibly the distance of his non-LB up-B.

Voting .

 

[Wintermelon43]

imo Cloud's lightning power should be nerfed so that it doesn't destroy buildings as much

but srrsly, keep him as is

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't really see much that needs fixing for Cloud. The only problem is his recovery, which requires Limit Break to be reliable, and even that can run into a brick wall against edge-guarders. Overall, Cloud is quite viable in the right hands, but his poor recovery is enough to keep him away from the top 5 rankings.

You don't think Limit Cross Slash is fundamentally insane? That move currently just completely overshadows his other limit options and covers so many options offstage/for ledge getups. I also thought it was agreed that Cloud's recovery isn't actually poor if you use it properly. His frame data + range + mobility is also insane, and while that alone might not be too bad, the fact that LCS makes ending stocks so easy on top of how great he is in neutral causes him to overshadow a lot of characters. His great landing options + a workable recovery when properly utilized do probably make him top 5. I would take 1% of damage off of both Cross Slash and Limit Cross Slash, and maybe make Uair have a bit more landing lag.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Cloud is fine as is. His weaknesses, inferior kill power without limit, one-dimensional recovery, and a lackluster grab game (the joke goes that Cloud's best followup out of grab is limit charge), are a good check to a an agile buster-wielder with wide coverage. If nerfs are needed:

• Reduce knockback growth on Limit Cross Slash so it doesn't kill until 130%.
• Reduce the vertical height of the hitboxes on non-limit Climhazzard so it's easier to challenge.
• Push back the autocancel window on up air so it requires more dedicated air time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Cloud is fine as is. His weaknesses, inferior kill power without limit, one-dimensional recovery, and a lackluster grab game (the joke goes that Cloud's best followup out of grab is limit charge), are a good check to a an agile buster-wielder with wide coverage.

Except none of those things are actual weaknesses in the sense that they're areas where he's subpar. Throw -> Limit Charge is no joke, and is better than what most characters lacking a kill throw/confirm get off grabs at high %. That + LCS basically invalidates his "weaknesses" excepting recovery, which a smart player can work around by going high and exploiting his insane hitboxes.

 

[Fex13]

You don't think Limit Cross Slash is fundamentally insane? That move currently just completely overshadows his other limit options and covers so many options offstage/for ledge getups. I also thought it was agreed that Cloud's recovery isn't actually poor if you use it properly. His frame data + range + mobility is also insane, and while that alone might not be too bad, the fact that LCS makes ending stocks so easy on top of how great he is in neutral causes him to overshadow a lot of characters. His great landing options + a workable recovery when properly utilized do probably make him top 5. I would take 1% of damage off of both Cross Slash and Limit Cross Slash, and maybe make Uair have a bit more landing lag.

no, dont make characters in this game more laggy, just dont. giving more lag to clouds uair would make him considerably worse than he is now. cloud is fine. just buff the 'bad' characters. the only thing i could see, is to take away a BIT more of limit CS' kill power and cloud is perfectly fine. giving more lag to moves is always bad imo, since it makes the characters/the game just more boring.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You don't think Limit Cross Slash is fundamentally insane? That move currently just completely overshadows his other limit options and covers so many options offstage/for ledge getups. I also thought it was agreed that Cloud's recovery isn't actually poor if you use it properly. His frame data + range + mobility is also insane, and while that alone might not be too bad, the fact that LCS makes ending stocks so easy on top of how great he is in neutral causes him to overshadow a lot of characters. His great landing options + a workable recovery when properly utilized do probably make him top 5. I would take 1% of damage off of both Cross Slash and Limit Cross Slash, and maybe make Uair have a bit more landing lag.

Nobody agrees that Cloud's recovery is anything less than trash. It's probably tied with Ganondorf for third worst in the game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

giving more lag to moves is always bad imo, since it makes the characters/the game just more boring.

So nerfing lagless spammable Luigi fireballs made the game more boring? That's an interesting balance philosophy.

Nobody agrees that Cloud's recovery is anything less than trash. It's probably tied with Ganondorf for third worst in the game.

Play better Clouds who actually recover intelligently.

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud is fine as is. His weaknesses, inferior kill power without limit, one-dimensional recovery, and a lackluster grab game (the joke goes that Cloud's best followup out of grab is limit charge), are a good check to a an agile buster-wielder with wide coverage. If nerfs are needed:

• Reduce knockback growth on Limit Cross Slash so it doesn't kill until 160%.
• Reduce the vertical height of the hitboxes on non-limit Climhazzard so it's easier to challenge.
• Push back the autocancel window on up air so it requires more dedicated air time.

These are literally some of... the worst nerfs I've ever seen suggested for Cloud. LCS not killing until 160%? Really?

 

[Fex13]

These are literally some of... the worst nerfs I've ever seen suggested for Cloud. LCS not killing until 160%? Really?

pretty much this.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You don't think Limit Cross Slash is fundamentally insane? That move currently just completely overshadows his other limit options and covers so many options offstage/for ledge getups. I also thought it was agreed that Cloud's recovery isn't actually poor if you use it properly. His frame data + range + mobility is also insane, and while that alone might not be too bad, the fact that LCS makes ending stocks so easy on top of how great he is in neutral causes him to overshadow a lot of characters. His great landing options + a workable recovery when properly utilized do probably make him top 5. I would take 1% of damage off of both Cross Slash and Limit Cross Slash, and maybe make Uair have a bit more landing lag.

I am not very comfortable with off-stage edge-guarding whenever I use Cloud. I tend to stay on-stage with Cloud, because I do know that there are a few powerful ground attacks that can make KOs without putting Cloud at risk of self-destructing himself. Even Blade Beam can be a good attack to use on someone who can't afford to waste time with air dodging.

Nobody agrees that Cloud's recovery is anything less than trash. It's probably tied with Ganondorf for third worst in the game.

You can't really compare Cloud's recovery to Ganondorf's recovery, since Ganondorf's recovery is just poor as a whole if you're not allowed to use Dark Fists and Wizard's Dropkick. At least for Cloud, his poor recovery is fixed up to an extent by Limit Break, but you do need to play smart if you don't want to get edge-guarded to death.

 

[Eugene Wang]

These are literally some of... the worst nerfs I've ever seen suggested for Cloud. LCS not killing until 160%? Really?

You say that like it's self-evident. I say even with this nerf, it still remains a potent damage-racking and option-catching move that can deliver KOs at eariler percents under certain conditions. Like performing it near ledges, or with rage. And even if it doesn't work, Cloud still gets an eternity and a half to get his limit gauge back and perform it again.

That said, now it clicks in my mind how late 160% is. Go check my post, I edited it.

 

[Tizio Random]

I always thought that Cloud was a character that revolved his gameplan around getting his limit break but now I'm not sure anymore. I mean, he can kill early even without it, the difference is just that it isn't as safe. Previously I would have said to nerf his fsmash and dsmash to not kill early but I'm convinced that the only thing he should need is maybe some less knockback on LCS because yeah it is quite too strong especially at ledge. Everything else I think is more or less fine.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Limit Break boosted Cross Slash requires good timing to even land though; you can't just abuse it, since you do need to get in close. If you mess it up, then you've just wasted the Limit Break condition, and have to rebuild it all over again.

 

[Tizio Random]

Limit Break boosted Cross Slash requires good timing to even land though; you can't just abuse it, since you do need to get in close. If you mess it up, then you've just wasted the Limit Break condition, and have to rebuild it all over again.

Yeah, I mean it's not the perfect move but:

• it beats airdodges and this is probably the most powerful aspect about it
• it has intangibility at frame 6
• covers the ledge in a horrendous way against many characters and
• while it isn't impossible to punish its ending lag is not bad at all for such a powerful tool

I'm fine if it won't be nerfed but I think it has a little bit too KO power, in fact it almost overshadows every other Cloud tool.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

At least there's no self-destruct risk if you use the attack on-stage. Off-stage edge-guarding with it is a gambit that could end up backfiring on Cloud, since you need Limit Break to improve Cloud's normally poor recovery, and fighters can air dodge that attack while recovering. In fact, the recovery alone is the primary reason for why I don't like to risk doing off-stage edge-guarding with Cloud.

 

[Tizio Random]

I don't want to go off-topic but you are making it seem like it's something difficult to do when it's really not. Against a character with no hitboxes on his/her/it recovery, and there are a lot of these, you just have to walk off the edge and press side B and he even stops in middle air. You can then jump back on the stage or use up B, he can do it, his recovery is not as bad as Little Mac. I can do it consistently myself and I don't even play Cloud.

 

[HeavyLobster]

At least there's no self-destruct risk if you use the attack on-stage. Off-stage edge-guarding with it is a gambit that could end up backfiring on Cloud, since you need Limit Break to improve Cloud's normally poor recovery, and fighters can air dodge that attack while recovering. In fact, the recovery alone is the primary reason for why I don't like to risk doing off-stage edge-guarding with Cloud.

Cloud can make it back just fine if you know your limits. His DJ and air mobility allow him to do more than you'd think. The low endlag on LCS makes it good at setting up edgeguarding traps. Plus his disjoints cover a lot. Good edgeguarding is important for optimal Cloud play.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I find Cloud to be one of the best, and maybe even the best character in the game due to his excellent mobility, frame data, range, general air superiority, approaching ability and probably the best "come to me" move in the whole game. He does have weaknesses but, they aren't really enough to stop him from being obscenely good and as far as weaknesses go they aren't even that bad. I'd probably nerf him, not because he's bad for the meta or anything like that (he's not), but I feel he's just too strong for his own good, alot like most of the other top tiers. I want the top power level to be lowered a bit, if that makes any sense. I'm not confident at all that every low and bottom tier character will actually get the right amount of buffs to ever reach their level, so I feel like it'd be wiser to tone down the top level characters by a reasonable amount so that there isn't this large gap between the best characters and the worst characters. Still a much smaller gap than it was in Brawl or Melee but it could still be improved in my opinion, but eh, given the results, maybe I'm being too harsh.

Here's his results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1l-NNoUzVnmhbKlY12-Vrf22Hfbfod4EKo4_ubZ9HBiI/viewanalytics
And here's Bayonetta's poll http://goo.gl/forms/jMfxTgDdeK

Here's the votable peeps.


Also, as a friendly reminder, since I've noticed that this topic tends to get kind of heated some times, I'd like to stress you all show restraint and be civil as possible today, even if it's hard, okay? You can debate all you want, just be kind and civil about it please. Thanks.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Cloud can make it back just fine if you know your limits. His DJ and air mobility allow him to do more than you'd think. The low endlag on LCS makes it good at setting up edgeguarding traps. Plus his disjoints cover a lot. Good edgeguarding is important for optimal Cloud play.

I guess for someone who tries to be conservative with Limit Break, I tend to look at other ways to make KOs, such as using the f-smash.

 

[Tizio Random]

Yo my 0.02€ (I'm European ya know) on the Umbra Witch
This is going to be awesome. I think she needs to be nerfed but I don't want to talk too much about why because this would mean take the thread to another direction I sincerely don't want to see. I've thought about her in these days so let's start.

Witch Twist
The major problem with her is her upb, no doubt. This move alone makes her a monster on her own.

• Frame 4, so incredibly safe OOS and not reactable at all
  
• GIGANTIC disjointed hitbox in all directions
• And obviously, combo starter

Do you remember what Sakurai said in her reveal trailer? "However, her combos are a bit slow to start". Now, I mean, is a 4 frame move a bit slow to start? Not in the slightest. Bayonetta needs to punish/go in your face to start a combo. As of now, Witch Twist just s**** upon all of these good premises. So, this is how I would nerf it:

• Grounded Witch Twist is now more or less a frame 10 move, so it can't be always used OOS to escape everything
• Its hitbox is reduced so it doesn't hit enemies that are a miles away
• It drags the opponent less high in the air

I think modify only the grounded version would be fair, so it doesn't damages her recovery (and I have to ask one thing about this because I have a doubt but later on). Hitbox reduction is obvious and Witch Twist bringing the opponent a shorter distance makes her killing on the top to happen far later while retaining the damage output (not at 0%...).

After Burner Kick (downward)
I would just make the ending lag of this move when whiffed just a tiny bit more and that, in some way, it is more difficult to chain two of these in the air. The reason for these is because it brings the opponent incredibly high, maybe even more than Witch Twist does but I'm not sure how. I don't know maybe it sends at a more downward angle or more cooldown?

Witch Time
This is not really a nerf, more an adjustment. Witch Time is fine as it is aside for one thing that bothers me like no other. Why is it not proportionate to the knockback of the move it counters?! I would make that, for example, a jab at 0 doesn't even make you stop for 1/10 of a second but I would gladly compensate for this with much more seconds for a Witch Time on fsmash at 100%, just saying.

This is my opinion. I think that these changes will make her a fair character, as her design was intended: slow start combos resulting in a lacking neutral game with very good advantage and disadvantage.

Also, is it real that has a third jump glitch during her recovery? I heard about that long time ago and now II can't find clear information about it. I think that if that is really helping her to recover from everywhere at anytime I could also see that gone because as of now her recovery is sooooo amazing.