Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
had the opportunity to be a strong mid tier...and then they had to nerf him. Many of the things he does well are now outclassed by other characters, especially Donkey Kong. My suggested buffs:.
.
Many people now underrate him because he's lost his ridiculous factor of down throw to down B, but he's still a very capable character with lots of strengths. He has amazing frame data which allows him to combo many moves into each other for lots of damage and escape tight situations, his kill moves are either really strong or pretty safe, and his neutral game is quite strong due to the aforementioned frame data plus his Fireball. His only glaring weakness is his gimpable recovery (and now his lack of ridiculous kill combo), and so I think he's very well balanced and high tier. spaghetti, that sounds delicious!
.All this can be said about mario and even dr mario. Luigi is straight up inferior to his brother in nearly every way possible. That's not balance. To balance him down throw and cyclone should go back to the way it was pre 1.1.1 but nerf the frame data on his down smash, forward tilt, and down tilt. And nerf down tilt so it doesn't trip anymore.
Luigi would be broken with better airspeed and a better recovery. Luigi's weaknesses should offset his grab game.
You could always increase Luigi's air speed without touching his recovery moves though.
But the airspeed buff is exactly what would break him. Making Green Missile slightly better would be an example of a fine buff, but decent airspeed would not only affect his recovery, but make his combo game totally bonkers, it would make getting out of juggles a lot easier, it would mitigate his needed weakness when it comes to approaching, and would very quickly strengthen him in an unhealthy way.
makes a mess every time he is discussed. It is almost as bad as discussion. Anyways, since we jumped on Luigi all of the sudden, here are my thoughts.is enough.
Not high air speed, just air speed that doesn't suck.High airspeed with Luigi's aerial frame data would be borked. Please don't. I vote
Oh please, it's going to take a lot more than better air speed to break Luigi.
as well
I would think that setting Luigi's air speed to a value that's between 0.9 and 0.95 (preferably 0.92) would at least help with his recovery issues. In fact, even if his air speed is set to 0.92, Luigi would still be faster on the ground than in the air.
So you're proposing an airspeed buff that's more than twice what Samus got last patch on a character with some of the best frame data on his aerials in the game(with good damage to boot)? If he could chase anyone at all in the air he'd have insane frame traps because his aerials have hardly any endlag. If you just want to make his recovery better, make Green Missile better, because then it would just address that issue without breaking him elsewhere.
While one may argue that increasing Luigi's air speed is a bad thing, I can pretty much say that Kirby desperately needs an air speed buff more, because his Final Cutter doesn't really cut it with its weak horizontal mobility.
A .2 air speed buff is not going to turn this character into Meta Knight. It's the least they can do to make up for everything he lost with the down throw nerf.
A .2 air speed buff is really massive. It's basically the difference between Mario's and Doc's airspeed. Luigi's aerials are insanely good, only held back by his air speed and mobility. A .02 airspeed increase probably wouldn't be too much, but a .2 increase is giant and really shouldn't be seriously proposed for anyone outside of an extremely short list that probably only consists of King Dedede.
Kirby says hello there, as he would definitely appreciate a 0.2 air speed increase so that he's not required to have to use up his mid-air jumps too soon. I've already mentioned how Final Cutter barely offers any horizontal movement, and in tournaments that don't allow customs, you can't always rely on Upper Cutter to help you out.
You're really exaggerating. As of now, Luigi has an air speed value of 0.73, the worst in the game second only to Dedede's 0.63. A .2 air speed buff would bring Luigi up to 0.93, still the 12th worst in the game tied with Falco. If Dedede deserves it, I'll be damned if Luigi doesn't too.
Except Luigi was designed to have some of the best aerials in the game and one of the worst aerial mobilities to keep them in check. Luigi is also much better than King Dedede, who is a bottom 5 character. Luigi right now is an average character and doesn't really need massive buffs to anything, let alone a key mobility parameter that affects every aspect of his game.
Kirby probably does merit an airspeed increase, but a 0.2 one is big for any character, and I wouldn't go that far for him. 0.05-0.08, along the lines of ones given to other characters would seem more appropriate. He would be tamer than most other characters with poor airspeed though, especially Luigi.
The problem is, Kirby's recovery is nowhere near as versatile as that of Meta Knight, who really didn't need to have his air speed buffed up to 0.99; all of Meta Knight's special moves can potentially be used for recovery.
You act like Luigi has Sheik's aerials or something. None of them combo into each other except for forward air, and even then you can only get two at most, three with an increase in air speed. I could see if he had aerials like Mario where every single one of them comboed into each other some way, but that's not the case with Luigi, and a minor air speed buff wouldn't change that.
True. Also the ladder wouldn't have been as much of a problem if he couldn't follow DI as easily. In general all of the multi-jump chars except him and Puff have poor airspeed, and airspeed buffs affect those characters' recoveries more than they would with normal chars.
They're almost as fast as Sheik's and far more damaging. Also 0.2 airspeed is not minor at all. It's like giving Falco G&W's airspeed, which would be about as bad as the buffs you're proposing. All of Luigi's aerials come out frame 10 or less, and most of them have little endlag. Plus there's Luigi's Shoryuken, which hit confirms into are a much bigger deal than for Doc/Mario. Also the reason all of Luigi's aerials don't combo into each other as well as Mario's do is because of his awful airspeed.
Who cares if they combo when they can break Luigi out of combos, damage a ton, and potentially kill you? The reason Mario and Sheik are the way they are now is because their airspeed got buffed. In Brawl their air speed sucked.
They do all that now. .2 air speed wouldn't change that.
No they aren't.
Which means they don't combo as well, which is the main reason why Sheik is so stupid.
To the character boasting the second worst in the game it is.
Falco's barely scraping mid tier right now. If you're suggesting that an increase in air speed would break him, you're crazy.
Neutral air has too much ending lag to combo into any thing unless you fall with it, back air has too much ending lag to do anything except kill, and up air is like back air, except it doesn't kill.
Lies and garbage. After the down throw nerf, Fire Jump Punch lost the one confirm it had. Mario has so many ways to combo into SJP I could count them on my hands and feet, and Doc's Punch confirms, while few and far between, are a hell of a lot more effective than the ones Luigi has. Because he has none.
No it isn't. Do you even play this character?
is in the same boat as Kirby in that he has gotten tons of buffs, but none of them really solve his core problems. He's even worse off than Kirby because of his much worse frame data, recovery, and combo ability. I would like to see these buffs:? That's cool, I'd like to see it!
Because it is really freaking strong.
Walk speed: 0.73 --> 0.76 (a bit faster than Ryu)
Run speed: 1.218 --> 1.36 (tied with Dedede)
Air speed: 0.79 --> 0.83 (ahead of Olimar and, at the moment, Kirby)
B-throw: KBG 130 --> 145 (he lacks a solid kill throw, so this would help)
F-air: Landing lag 22 --> 19
D-air: Landing lag 26 --> 23
Warlock Punch: FAF 118/128 --> 108 --> 118 (why does it need both high startup and high endlag?)
Wizard's Foot: Grounded FAF 77 --> 72, Landing FAF 47 --> 42 (slightly improve his approach game)
Your magic box has a
) but not the King of Evil that has the triforce of POWER? He should have one. Those buffs aren't necessary and won't change anything. I got a better idea since you think Green Missle and D-tilt are important moves. Nerf those two moves while luigi's grab game goes back to Pre 1.1.1. Lower the damage and add more endlag of the green missle and and down tilt. Down tilt shouldn't be a free trip
I think you missed the point entirely. Green Missile and Dtilt ARE bad. Making them worse and bringing back DThrow won't make Luigi better. And what is so bad about forced trips?
Not sure I would go that far. He isn't unusable but all of his top 5 MUs are 35-65 or worse, unless you count ZSS as top 5, and she's only slightly better. He definitely warrants at least some sort of grab game improvement if nothing else. Shield also isn't really his problem, as spaced Bair is safe on shield, and spaced Fair usually is if your opponent doesn't have a tether grab. Also crossup DA is pretty safe. Mobility when used defensively is a bigger issue than pressuring opponents who just sit in shield. Most of his worst MUs are ones where he gets rushed down due to his poor CQC and OOS options, so a grab range buff would aid him significantly.
Hey, I get that your trying to get your point across so I'll give you a little slack, but the tone of these is kind of harsh, it's pretty close to what I'd consider being insulting if it isn't already. I'll let it slide this time but I won't again, so don't do that again, okay?
Cornbread would be good to discuss. They've been overshadowed by Cloud and Bayonetta lately and we should show them some needed love.
was considered by many to be pretty flawed and low for, even after his buffs. However, now people are noticing his true potential, and I could see him near the top of mid tier. His combo game is damaging and deadly, he's now much more safe due to his decreased lag on grab, his neutral game is good enough, and his recovery is quite far and harder to gimp than Ness's, if not a bit slower and less powerful. I can see him going far in the meta game, and I think he's a good enough character as of now. is not a pig mask, but I'll vote for her anyway.