The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[MarioMeteor]

Play better Clouds who actually recover intelligently.

Yeah, that totally changes the state of his recovery.

I am not very comfortable with off-stage edge-guarding whenever I use Cloud. I tend to stay on-stage with Cloud, because I do know that there are a few powerful ground attacks that can make KOs without putting Cloud at risk of self-destructing himself. Even Blade Beam can be a good attack to use on someone who can't afford to waste time with air dodging.



You can't really compare Cloud's recovery to Ganondorf's recovery, since Ganondorf's recovery is just poor as a whole if you're not allowed to use Dark Fists and Wizard's Dropkick. At least for Cloud, his poor recovery is fixed up to an extent by Limit Break, but you do need to play smart if you don't want to get edge-guarded to death.

True, but Limit can only save you so many times. When it's not there, Cloud can be gimped with a gust of wind (literally, if you're playing Mario).

Now Bayonetta. A lot of people are calling her the best in the game, and I guess they're right. Obviously, that warrants some nerfs.
- Give aerial Witch Twist more ending lag so that she can't use it to carry you to kingdom come.
- Slightly increase the startup of grounded Witch Twist.
- Overall damage decrease on some of her moves, so she can't take you 0% to 60% all because you whiffed one grab.

Voting for Fox.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Bayonetta is arguably number one, but if patches stopped at this point, I wouldn't mind too much. That said, she could use some nerfs to emphasize her weaknesses, which I assume are supposed to be low speed, bad frame data, and high commitment on kill options, and qualify her strengths, which are an amazing aerial combo game, good range, good burst mobility options, and slipperiness with Witch Time and Bat Within.

• Lower the base knockback on her aerials and specials, and increase knockback growth slightly to compensate. This reduces the ladder potential of Bayonetta's combos at low percents.
  
• Modify her specials so that different parts of the last hit of each move hit at different angles. Design them so that it's possible to follow up on each potential DI/SDI option with a read (but requires quick enough action that it can't be done on reaction). This makes Bayonetta's bread and butter combos more interactive.
• Make the FAF of witch twist frame 8, and narrow its hitboxes.
• Change the hitlag parameters of Bat Within so opponents can bait out and punish Bat Within more easily.
  
• Reduce the knockback that opponents experience under Witch Time. This makes it less of a mid-percent kill confirm and more of a combo starter.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Oh, , how you (literally) twisted what people wanted from a combo character into something borderline broken. My suggested nerfs:

Fair hit 2 (so only hit 1 can combo into other moves), up air (to lessen combos), Bair (so it isn't nearly as safe), and Witch Twist (so no easy combos to the heavens): +3f endlag
Downward ABK angle: more horizontal knockback to restrict followups


Voting .

 

[Furret24]

I'm gonna go ahead and vote for .

 

[Zerp]

Bayonetta's a lot like Jigglypuff when you think about it, they're both designed to be high-risk high-reward characters, except that Bayonetta kinda forgot to bring the risk part, she has pretty good rewards but doesn't have a lot of risk attached to those rewards.
Here's what I'd do to try to fix her up a bit :

• Witch Time's effect now starts on frame 9 instead of 5, no longer activates on unblockable attacks or Pikmin latched on.
• F-air 1 hitbox shrunk to 2/3rds of it's current size
• Witch Twist's hitbox starts up on frame 7 instead of 4, hitbox is reduced to something actually resembling the attack.
• Downward Burner Kick's end lag is extended by 6 frames.
• Bair and Uair's FAF changed from 30 to 40.

Anyways, here's her results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1W0lqyqDUQLL5AuMLNBcVuwPJWXqcn5FwVPPX5sY46bo/viewanalytics

Here's Mr. Game and Watch's poll http://goo.gl/forms/XPykVU0cIl

Here's the characters you can vote on.

I vote for

Also, I want to thank you all for being civil as always yesterday, I appreciate it.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Lol at the one person who thought Bayo was bottom tier and desperately needed buffs.

Anyway, is a character that many people underrate due to his light weight and poor neutral game, but I think he definitely has enough tools to be a great character. He still could use some buffs to really push him to true viability, though. Here are some I'm thinking of:

F- and D-smash: Active frames 17-18,15-19 --> 15-16, 13-17, FAF 43,38 --> 41,36 (-2 frames startup to add two more killing options)
N-air: FAF 43 --> 40 (to help with combo game)
F-air: KBG 86,80 --> 96,90 (why was this nerfed so much?) || Landing lag 15 --> 12 (to help with neutral game)
B-air: Landing lag 19 --> 16 (again, to help with neutral game)
D-air: Active frames 12-13(spike),14-38(late) --> 12-15(spike),16-38(late) (to make spikes a bit easier to land for the risk involved)
Chef: FAF 50 --> 45 (to help with neutral game) || Pan angle 10 --> 0 (to help with edgeguarding, though not necessary)
Oil Panic: Absorbs from frame 7 --> frame 4, FAF 50 --> 45; Attack active frames 2-7 --> 5-10 (rebalancing: easier to absorb, not quite as easy to attack)


Voting for .

 

[Furret24]

Probably just main bias, but I find G&W to be a pretty poor character. He has a few good tools, but his weaknesses really hold him back.

Anyways, i'm going to make a list of changes here and explain my reasonings. Sorry if this ends up being a really big post. I also hope I didn't come off as being too greedy in this post.

- Jab's first hit has higher BKB and removed KBG (5/100 -> 25) and it's body hitbox size slightly decreased (5.0 -> 4.5).
Jab is strangely not notorious at all for not starting it's infinite fast enough to properly connect opponents into it, as the first hit is too weak. Giving the move stronger knockback will help it connect into the infinite better so people will stop breaking out of it. If anyone's wonder about that hitbox size decrease, well, for those who don't know, the first hit of Jab has a hitbox on G&W's body that slightly sticks out behind him, potentially making the move start the rapid jab with opponents behind him, basically giving opponents a free punish on him, which is very annoying.

- Forward and Down smash have increased knockback on both their sweetspots and sourspots (Fsmash 91/100 -> 96/110 KBG, Dsmash 85 -> 90 KBG sweetspot, 30/65 -> 40/80 Sourspot). Their hitboxes also has altered sizes to make landing the sweetspots much easier (Fsmash 5.3/3 -> 6.8/1.5, 5.0/5.0/4.5 -> 6.0/5.5/3.0). Forward smash in particular also has more active frames (17-18 -> 17-22).
The main reasons for these changes is to make them more consistent. The slow startup, in my eyes, indicates that these moves were designed to be read based and therefore, have high reward upon landing them. The main issue with this however is that the moves have huge sourspots with pitiful kill power. With the changes, the sourspots will not only take up a minority of the moves range, it will also be much stronger (for specifics, down smash's sourspot will kill before 150% again like in Brawl, and forward smash's sourspot kill only about 15% later than the sweetspot, as opposed to 25% later). The small sweetspot power buffs are to make them slightly more rewarding on hit. Surprisingly, G&W's smashes are pretty far from the top of their class in power (Fsmash is Top 20 and Dsmash doesn't crack Top 10). I think making them stronger wouldn't hurt, especially when he's supposed to be good at killing.

- Up tilt's first hit has set knockback of 58, deals less damage (7% -> 4%), and has a slightly more diagonal angle on hit (100 -> 105 degrees). The second hit does more damage (7% -> 10%), has a higher angle (110 -> 90 degrees), and has it's sourspot removed. However, it also does slightly less knocback (20/127 -> 15/125) to compensate for it's higher damage output. Both hits also have much more range (5.5/3.0 -> 8.0/5.5 Hit 1, 6.0/3.5 -> 9.0/6.5 Hit 2).
Up tilt as of right now is generally considered to be really bad, as it's poor connecting issues and terrible range limit it a lot outside of combos out of down throw at specific percents. With these changes, the move will not only have respectable range, it will also be better for combos at low percents and can even kill at higher percents (around 145%).

- Forward and Down tilts have decreased ending lag (38/40 -> 35/30 FAF). Forward tilt also lingers more (Frames 10/11-17 -> 10-14/15-24) and has it's completely unnecessary 9% sourspot removed.
These changes are mostly designed to help G&W's spacing game a little and make then slightly safer kill options. Not much to say.

But really, why is down tilt so friggin laggy?


- Neutral, back, up, and down aerials have less landing lag (12/19 (16)/12/28 -> 10/15 (12)/10/20). Neutral, forward, and back aerials also have better autocancel windows (44>/42>/38> -> 32>/35>/34>).
Game and Watch has a nonexistent approach and neutral game. Giving him autocancel aerials will give him ways to get in an advantage safely, effectively also aiding his neutral and approach game, two glaring issues of his.

- Forward, Back, and Down aerials have increased damage outputs (11.5% -> 14.5% Forward, 2%/2%/2%/3% -> 2%/2%/3%/4% Back, 11%/3.5% -> 13%/4% Down). Down aerial has a longer meteor window (12-13 -> 12-15).
Game and Watch is really bad at killing, and one of the reasons why is that he has no good way of killing in the air. Giving his aerials more kill power really gives G&W a little edge in his edgeguarding game, since none of his edgeguarding aerials kill until beyond 150% excluding stage spikes. The spike duration increase was mostly put in because the timing on that part of the move is very strict. I don't think it would hurt to make it a little more lenient.

- Up aerial’s first hit now has an autolink angle and set knockback (of 60). Both hits have bigger hitboxes (4.3/6.5 → 4.8/7.0 Hit 1, 4.3/6.5 → 5.8/8.0 Hit 2).
This move is notorious for having big connecting issues at higher percents. With these changes, it is much more consistent at connecting properly (though, not perfect).

- Forward, back, and up throws have increased knockback (100/40 -> 90/68 Forward and Back, 100/40 -> 100/68 Up). Forward and back throws also send in semispike angles (58 -> 25 degrees).
Game and Watch has a very poor grab game at the moment due to it's laughable range and unreliable setups into it. I think giving him a better throw game would be optimal to make getting the grab more rewarding. Outside of giving his forward, back, and up throws kill potential, forward and back throw now also have much lower angles, giving him guaranteed ways to get opponents offstage. This makes his throws overall much more threatening. It also makes him better at killing, something currently has an issue doing.

-Chef and Oil Panic have less cooldown (50/50 -> 40/40). Chef's pan hitbox also has more KBG (30 -> 65).
Chef and Oil Panic are generally considered very situational. One of the shared reasons between the two is their very high ending lag. Making them less laggy would make them more viable tools. The Chef pan buff is mainly to make the move more viable offstage. As of now you'll never use it to edgeguard because the move is very laggy while also not being very strong (fair and bair outclass it in nearly every way). Buffing the move's startup might make the projectile a little spammable (and is already on par with most projectiles), so I decided making the move just stronger would be a better choice, as now there's a reason to use it to edgeguard over other moves.

I actually had more ideas, but I didn't want to accidentally overtune G&W. All in all, I think this would help with G&W's most crippling flaws (Nonexistent neutral, lack of safe moves on shield and in general, big killing issues) and make him a more viable character. Game and Watch is not very hard to make good. Just some changes on some of his moves and he could definitely being a viable character like Mewtwo now is.

Lol at the one person who thought Bayo was bottom tier and desperately needed buffs.

Anyway, is a character that many people underrate due to his light weight and poor neutral game, but I think he definitely has enough tools to be a great character. He still could use some buffs to really push him to true viability, though. Here are some I'm thinking of:

F- and D-smash: Active frames 17-18,15-19 --> 15-16, 13-17, FAF 43,38 --> 41,36 (-2 frames startup to add two more killing options)
N-air: FAF 43 --> 40 (to help with combo game)
F-air: KBG 86,80 --> 96,90 (why was this nerfed so much?) || Landing lag 15 --> 12 (to help with neutral game)
B-air: Landing lag 19 --> 16 (again, to help with neutral game)
D-air: Active frames 12-13(spike),14-38(late) --> 12-15(spike),16-38(late) (to make spikes a bit easier to land for the risk involved)
Chef: FAF 50 --> 45 (to help with neutral game) || Pan angle 10 --> 0 (to help with edgeguarding, though not necessary)
Oil Panic: Absorbs from frame 7 --> frame 4, FAF 50 --> 45; Attack active frames 2-7 --> 5-10 (rebalancing: easier to absorb, not quite as easy to attack)

Just like to make a few comments on some of these.

Making Forward and Down smash faster would be nice, but wouldn't the mains issues in them, being that they have very big and weak sourspots.

Giving nair a little less cooldown wouldn't really do anything at all. Everything it could do with a FAF of 40 can already be done with a FAF of 43. I mean, it already combos into itself and fair at low to mid percents if you read the opponent's DI, it's not like making it's aerial ending lag would help that.

Bair's landing lag decrease wouldn't help that much, since it would still be rather unsafe on shield, though it would help a little. Also, he's an interesting fact that kinda relates to bair: did you know the move has slightly less landing lag if you connect the landing hit on an opponent (16 frames, as opposed to the normal 19 frames), kinda like Bowser Jr's dair? Just a little fun fact for you all to enjoy.


Also, with the exception of the Oil Panic & Chef endlag changes and the landing lag decreases, I have personally altered and tested all of these changes in person on my copy of Smash 3DS. Just food for thought.

I vote for . I'm curious as to what you all think of him.

 

[Deleted member]

I also vote for Diddy. Want to put down changes I had in mind.

 

[Zerp]

This headache is obnoxious.

Personally, I feel like Mr. Game and Watch would be justified in getting buffs, he's got all these great things about him but they aren't enough to stop him from being mediocre. Gib buffs pls.

Anyways, here's Mr. Game and Watch's poll: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/16kdP7aVuq4gyWXt9nPoHTts71ldH8xESTZJYD2Eal6U/viewanalytics

Here's Diddy Kong's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/gBhGacyKD0

And finally, here's the characters you can vote on.

 

[Furret24]

I think Diddy is fine as is. No need for buffs or nerfs.

Voting for . I'd like to share some changes I had in mind for him.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is fine as he is. He's still a very capable character after his big nerfs, and nothing he has is obnoxious or underwhelming.

Voting .

 

[Deleted member]

Wish fair and uair could have some killing power, (like increase uair's damage to 8% but not give it crazy knockback like it was prepatch) and for nair to be faster/do more damage (it comes out frame 8 and does a measly 6%, so it's pretty poor overall) but that's really it.

Voting for .

 

[Y2Kay]

please don't vote for . People will start asking for nerfs, and then I will lose my sanity.

 

[MarioMeteor]

He's not Hoo-Ha-ing people to oblivion anymore, so he's fine.

Guess I'll be a sheep and vote Mewtwo.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Diddy is fine as he is.

I'm gonna vote because I want to annoy Mew2Chainz Because I want to see what people will think about him.

 

[Zerp]

I view Diddy Kong as top 3, I'm definitely in favor of him getting nerfed, while yes, he already got major nerfs, I never quite thought they were enough and I thought it was inevitable that once Sheik gets nerfed, Diddy will regain his throne, which while I was wrong, I don't think I was very far off. Diddy isn't a bad influence or anything but I still feel like he's just simply too strong for his own good, and if left unchecked will become a problem overtime.

Here's Diddy's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1g2TbsrmhlrUa6rC_kgyJyJUIMdo2g7vhSg0dD4PvoyI/viewanalytics

Here's Mewtwo's poll http://goo.gl/forms/AKXkxoxjFQ

And here's the characters you can vote on.

I vote for

 

[Furret24]

Mewtwo, thanks to his buffs, is in a really good spot right now. I think it's best we leave him unchanged.

I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is in a great position in the meta game, as now his character design is a successful glass cannon rather than a lacking one. As a glass cannon, he has many strengths, and enough weaknesses to be very balanced.

Voting for Sande--oh wait, .

 

[Zerp]

Mewtwo's a perfect example of a character buffed right, I don't see any problems with him. In fact, I wish more characters were like him, wouldn't it be great if all the other low tiers got the Mewtwo treatment?
Here's Mewtwo's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/11lODJxaIJO8dOH9JGCCVjAY9n692W6imch8gToJCnY8/viewanalytics
I like how everyone agrees on Mewtwo
Here's Meta Knight's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Ruy1vyOW46
Fun fact: Meta Knight does not appear in any of the 3 Kirby games with blood in them. Who knows, maybe he's got a phobia?

Also, here's the characters you can vote on.

 

[Deleted member]

Biggest buff would be him getting his Brawl SFX back.

Besides that, down tilt having its hitbox match the sword better (and having better range in general) and up air having a larger hitbox/more active frames is really all I'd want, but he's fine as is.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Perhaps down tilt could use a bit more range and up tilt could have a bit less endlag, but besides that is in a great spot right now. His obnoxious factor was toned down but still exists, and the area he struggled with has been improved, so now I see him as a solid high tier contender that will still get lots of results.

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Biggest buff would be him getting his Brawl SFX back.

Please, yes. Why does Galaxia sound like a piece of construction paper?

I'll vote Ike.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know that this is just aesthetic, but Brawl Meta Knight's eyes move around more often than Smash 4 Meta Knight's eyes.

 

[Zerp]

Meta Knight used to be my secondary, I eventually dropped him, right before he got all hyped up due to Leo's accomplishments if I'm remembering correctly. Anyway, before dropping him I remember hoping that he'd eventually get a slight nerf to his U-air combos since those were kind of stupid imo, and that did eventually get nerfed, so I'm pretty happy with current Metty even if I don't play him anymore. (If your wondering why I dropped him, it's because my playstyle didn't really work out with him and he was taking too much time from Puff, which is a shame, I like the character a lot)
Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1JFaxaNehtsT5CRStA9zzBlsPy5iz08GCTI3RlhbfV3E/viewanalytics

Here's Ryu's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/AcM2kXcsf6

Here's the vertebrates you can vote for.


Edit: Thanks for pointing that out, L1N3R1D3R, I clearly need to start double checking the characters, I keep on making this mistake over and over again, I'm so stupidly clumsy, lol.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

in my opinion is very underrated. You see people not put him in the top tiers simply because of lack of tournament results, a steep learning curve unless you're also good at Street Fighter, or the same reward with more effort than Bayonetta. However, Trela, DJ Jack, and others have proven how insane his reward can be when mastered. I believe he's a ridiculously strong character that is at least top 10 and could be top tier if he had more representation, and I don't want him to be nerfed simply because I want people to be highly rewarded for overcoming his steep learning curve.

Voting . (By the way, Ryu is still in the list of characters you can vote for.) He fixed it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Zerp Question: What way are considering these tiers by? For the polls. Are you going by the incorrect 4BR style, where A tier is high tier and B is mid tier, etc., or the correct methed where A tier is also top, B tier high, and so on? I don't want to vote on the poll when I don't know which methed you're going by

 

[Zerp]

Zerp Question: What way are considering these tiers by? For the polls. Are you going by the incorrect 4BR style, where A tier is high tier and B is mid tier, etc., or the correct methed where A tier is also top, B tier high, and so on? I don't want to vote on the poll when I don't know which methed you're going by

That's a good question, your right, there are different styles. The reason I made it so that the poll says "Top, High, Mid, Etc" instead of "S, A, B, Etc" is because where the tiers cut off as still being high versus being mid is subjective. And since everyone has different ideas of where the tiers become high, I thought it'd be better if we just said whether or not we think a character is high, mid, etc, just going off of whatever your definition of those tiers is. Basically, just vote according to what your definition is of which tier equals which letter or which number, whatever you want really, we're not going off of any model.

Like, for example, if you were to think there's tiers from A to Z, and you thought of D tier as one of the High tiers and the character your voting on is someone you see in "D Tier" then vote for them being high tier, it doesn't matter if it fits the BR or any other Tier List's style.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The way that I've seen tiers is more like this...

• S-tier: The highest ranking, which is for fighters who hardly have any weaknesses.
• A-tier: A ranking for fighters who are very viable, but suffer from weaknesses that are too big for an S-tier ranking.
• B-tier: A high ranking for fighters with above average viability, but their flaws are large enough to keep them out of the A-tier ranking.
• C-tier: An average ranking for moderately viable fighters who are hindered by flaws that keep them out of the higher tiers.
• D-tier: A below average tier for fighters who have flaws that hurt their overall viability more than the higher tiers.
• E-tier: The fighters in this tier have much more cons than pros, and tend to struggle more than the D-tier ranking fighters.
• F-tier: The lowest ranking, which is for fighters who are heavily cursed with flaws, and almost no pros whatsoever.

 

[MarioMeteor]

, and almost no pros whatsoever.

That's pretty harsh. Every character in this game have positives of some sort. Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, everybody. No matter how low they may place in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Tizio Random]

That's pretty harsh. Every character in this game have positives of some sort. Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, everybody. No matter how low they may place in the grand scheme of things.

In fact I think the lowest tier in this game is Tier E and very few characters are in it. All the other low tier characters are in D (such as Little Mac, Palutena, Bowser Jr, Shulk, etc...).

On topic, Ryu is fine as it is. I think he still has many things to be explored.
Voting for

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's pretty harsh. Every character in this game have positives of some sort. Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, everybody. No matter how low they may place in the grand scheme of things.

Hence why I said "almost". Jigglypuff is kind of down there for its lack of long-ranged attacks, and its reach isn't very good either. And of course, a lot of its custom special moves range from situational to impractical (with Spinphony being the most impractical) in the viability department.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Hence why I said "almost". Jigglypuff is kind of down there for its lack of long-ranged attacks, and its reach isn't very good either. And of course, a lot of its custom special moves range from situational to impractical (with Spinphony being the most impractical) in the viability department.

Customs are cool and all, but should we even be considering actual custom moves as an area to determine viability, considering no tournaments at all use customs? Mii's are probably an exception (at least they are in my book), seeing as their specials are all active on "Customs Off".

Also, nice avatar partner

 

[Zerp]

Ryu's pretty darn good imo, he just takes a lot of effort to use which is why he isn't getting a ton of results, I think he's perfect the way he is to be honest.

Here's Ryu's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1d1me-GbP0bkBx5qquNIsqZaJpc7TeL5lMd8XwegTvHQ/viewanalytics

Here's Shulk's poll http://goo.gl/forms/gL6weWFF07

And you can vote for these

Edit: Voting for ehm, Ganondorf.

 

[Tizio Random]

is an interesting case. I think that he has so much potential but he is not too represented because it falls short to be an amazing character and that really hurts. Many people say that the best way to buff him is to buff his frame data but I don't think that's the solution to his problems.
I don't play Shulk competitively, this is not an in-depth analysis, it's just what I feel when playing with him.

Once in this forum I've read an user that said something very interesting about Shulk: he is not a warrior or a normal swordman, he is a scientist that was chosen by the Monado (no spoiler pls I'm still playing Xenoblade ;_; ) so it's natural that his movements and attacks are quite slow. The problem is that he should be really powerful and have enormous range thanks to the Monado but I feel that this Monado is too inconsistent at times: nair sometimes seems to not touch opponents at all and enemies fall out attacks too easily.

I think good buffs could be:

• Slightly buff his range and damage on some moves (nair and bair comes to mind)
  
• Makes other moves like uair connect better
• Lenght the time of his Monado arts but a tiny bit so he can abuse them better (they are his greatest strenght after all)

There's probably more or something completely different than what I've said (I don't for example about throws other than dthrow is good) to be adjusted. I hope someone more expert than me could explain better what feels right.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Just let him autocancel his attacks into each other on a narrow frame window just before he puts his Monado away. This is all.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Hence why I said "almost". Jigglypuff is kind of down there for its lack of long-ranged attacks, and its reach isn't very good either. And of course, a lot of its custom special moves range from situational to impractical (with Spinphony being the most impractical) in the viability department.

Even still, Jigglypuff has her strengths. Yes, her weaknesses outweigh them, but even saying that she almost has no strengths is wrong.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is a character that many overlook because Cloud and Corrin do his job of being a big-sworded character much better. The only thing going for him specifically now is his Monado arts, which really isn't enough to save him from being low tier. To buff him, I would suggest:

~Down and up throws should have less endlag to allow for more followups.
~His aerials and tilts should all have -2 frames startup and -1 frame endlag. His aerials should have better autocancel windows.

Voting

 

[L9999]

Long time no see people. Now, the most disappointing swordfighter of all (unless you remember).

Longer lasting arts: Right now Shulk's arts last a decent amount of time, but some characters can time him out very easily. From 15 sec to 23 sec. I know it is scary, but that is my case, make Shulk scary, make him able to keep the pressure up.

Back Slash: This move needs to snap the edge. Not only to prevent SDs with it, but to give Shulk a recovery mixup. And speaking of mixups, a radical change, but let Shulk cancel Back Slash midways into an airdodge or aerial. It might be predictable, but mixup potential is always good.

Jab: This move in particular bothers me. It's ultra sluggish and the jab combo doesn't connect properly. Why is a PUNCH so slow? Bringing it in line with Ike would make Shulk's CQC much better, without the need to alter his tilts.

Those beams don't connect: Uair, Usmash, FSmash. It is easy to fall out of those, and with the Smash attacks being so slow and punishable it is an insult. I know Uair would be scary on jump mode, but since Shulk has very few options to go with and out BS top tiers, having one BS option wouldn't harm. Another for Uair is some horizontal range.

Dair's hitbox: This thing is misleading, it does not linger and the animation lasts too long doing nothing. Make it linger.

"L9999, WHY NO autocancels!?" Do you really want another ? Shulk's sword is massive, it does not need autocancels. If you really want autocancels, then make the windows as tight as .

As a reminder, Shulk's playstyle is inconsistent due to how hard to play he is and how flexible he can be to anyone playing him, so I go for general buffs.

 

[Zerp]

I don't have nearly enough experience versus good Shulks to tell where he stands and how much fixing he needs, so I'll just abstain.

Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ierggdHljZJ0dapxdKx9LtbNcFDRNHLL4CT3heUNjsE/viewanalytics

And here's Bowser's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/37zyLGBe2G

You can vote for these endangered species.

 

[Deleted member]

Going to put down my changes for Bowser.

Spoiler: Bowser Changes

Jumpsquat frames decreased (8 frames → 6 frames).

Hard landing lag decreased (6 frames → 4 frames).

Walk speed increased (0.858 → 0.95).

Air speed returned to Brawl’s values (1.000 → 1.034).

Air acceleration increased (0.04 → 0.045).

Jab 1 comes out slightly faster (frame 7 → frame 5).

Knockback on Jab 2 weakened slightly to compensate for speed buff. (BKB 50 → BKB 45).

“Tough Guy” mechanic has no percent threshold. Doesn't go into hitlag when Tough Guy is in effect. Armor only appears on certain attacks and animations similarly to Project M. These animations are his crouch, crawl, startup of down tilt, Bowser Bomb until falling hitbox appears, startup of forward smash, startup of aerial Flying Slam, and startup of dash attack.

Forward tilt is slightly faster (frame 10 → frame 9).

Knockback growth on forward tilt weakened to compensate (KBG 83 → KBG 80).

Forward tilt’s cooldown slightly decreased (FAF 38 → FAF 36)

Up tilt startup almost back to Melee speed (frame 11 → frame 9). Has slightly less cooldown which makes it safer on hit at lower percentages (FAF 41 → FAF 39).

Down tilt has slightly faster startup (frame 10 → frame 8).

Down smash startup decreased slightly (frame 10 → frame 9). It also does more damage (16% → 19%) and has more KBG (130 → 140).

Neutral aerial is faster (frame 8 → frame 6). Has less landing lag (20 frames → 15 frames). Bowser’s entire body is an active hitbox instead of just his limbs.

Dash attack sends at a 40° angle now, and has 5 frames less ending lag.

Forward air has less startup (frame 11 → frame 10). Has slightly less landing lag (24 frames → 20 frames). Autocancel window changed (>31 → >25).

Back air has significantly less landing lag (40 frames → 21 frames). It also has a more favorable autocancel window (31> → >25).

Down aerial has much less landing lag (40 frames → 32 frames). Landing hitbox damage increased (2% → 5%).

Up aerial has less landing lag (24 frames → 17 frames).

Down throw deals 1% more damage total, going from 12% to 13% (2% and 10% → 4% and 9%). As the final hit deals less damage, it is very slightly weaker, so it can be used as a move queue refresher, rather than staling his kill throws or combo throw (similar to Mewtwo’s forward throw).

Fire Breath has less startup (frame 23 → frame 18) and slightly less cooldown (FAF 78 → 70) and its flinchless hitbox is removed, letting the move flinch opponents at full range as it did in Melee and Brawl.

Flying Slam’s hitbox now covers Bowser’s entire arm, giving it more range. The move now has invincibility throughout the entire attack, meaning Bowser no longer can be interrupted out of it at any point while his opponent is grabbed. The aerial version comes out faster (frame 17 → frame 12).

Bowser has slightly more control over the slam than his opponent and is no longer percent dependent.