The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Meta Knight has been one fighter where I have mixed feelings about. While he's not as strong as he was in Brawl, he did receive buffs for things that seem to be unnecessary.

First up is Meta Knight's air speed, where in Brawl, he was the third slowest, with an air speed value of 0.752 (tied with Ivysaur). While gliding may be gone in Smash 4, Meta Knight's versatile recovery options (such as Mach Tornado and Drill Rush) can still overcome the poor air speed issues, which made me think that buffing his air speed to 0.99 is overkill (I have it set to 0.8).

As for falling speed, while Meta Knight is a faster faller than before, 1.66 seems too fast for him, so I did decrease it down to 1.56.

I know that these inputs can sound rather selfish, but these are just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Jeronado]

I think that that air speed likely helped MK better follow people's DI during his Uair combos. I guess it doesn't matter much now since the characters ladder combo still works on can't DI out anyway. Airspeed also helps with edgeguarding.

Only change I'd give to MK is to reduce the landing lag on Fair, or give it a better autocancel window. Move is really close to being decent, but not quite there yet.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I forgot to say something when Kirby's part was on apprantatly, I thought I did say something, so I'll just say this right now:imo a better final cutter would be the most helpfull buff, to give him a new, good tool in neutral. Slightly increased air speed would be good too.

 

[Zerp]

I think Meta Knight's perfect now, he used to be too strong imo, I secondaried MK for a while and after he got buffed I was honestly kind of worried that he'd eventually end up being detrimental to the metagame, and while that didn't exactly happen, I don't think my worries were for nothing, so I'm glad that nerf happened, and the best part is, he's still perfectly viable.

Here's Meta Knight's poll: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1cdtcsA9o8fjf1chmIg5dc2_LJ9DE9HKBvoEb2fd5IBw/viewanalytics
Rosalina and Luma's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/TioXxbMDlmJXbUZs2

You may vote for any of these people who may or may not be look after Lumas in their spare time.

I vote for Ryu.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

After all the nerfs that she received in Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update, Rosalina definitely isn't as strong as she once was. However, people have still complained about her being too strong, and yet all that you need to do is contain the Luma, and you've pretty much weakened Rosalina's offensive options for a while.

Anyway, there are some things that Rosalina has problems with, so I did do some attribute modifications on her. The most notable dilemma is her air speed, which is below average when compared to most other fighters. Combine that with the fact that Launch Star can't deal any damage, and you definitely have some recovery issues. And of course, Rosalina is the third slowest faller, so it's not easy for her to make safe landings if her adversary can walk faster than her air speed.

I did raise Rosalina's air speed to 1.25 (tied with Mewtwo) in hopes of improving her recovery issue, but this also makes Rosalina's air game more dangerous, especially when she edge-guards off-stage.

To finish things up, Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs, but her air speed issue can be a problem when your recovery move can't deal any damage, and sadly, Launch Star Attack is even less effective for recovery, as it halts Rosalina's momentum upon ending, and travels a shorter distance as well. On the other hand, making Rosalina faster in the air also makes her air game better, AND improves her longevity as well; you're basically countering one weakness with something that can potentially lead to even more hate.

 

[L9999]

It's Luma rage jank that people complain about, you know, those situational Dabuz vines that will never happen consistently. And if they complain about Rosalina AND Luma, they wouldn't complain as much if they actually bothered to learn the Rosa MU and hunt down Rosa mains (yes I do that). I know I'm no one to talk about Rosalina, but I rather leave her as she is right now instead of nerfing her just for the sake of it (I still dislike GP though).

I vote .

 

[Green Zelda]

Like everyone else so far, is fine how she is imo, but since a large majority of the smash community hates her "luma jank", I guess they could increase the amount of time it takes for luma to respawn (13 seconds > 25)

Voting for !

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

's in the same category as in my eyes, where I want to change things around but keep her the same overall viability. I'm fine with the character being so good, but I'm not fine with how janky Luma is and how weak solo Rosa is. The changes I'll list will probably slightly nerf her overall (I'm not sure), but they will hopefully make the complainers stop and change the character from "Rosalina AND LUMA" to "Rosalina and Luma":

-- Decrease KBG of jab finishers & Luma jab three. I'm sure we can all agree how ridiculous her jab is: it's quite easy to use, it has huge range (with Luma), it's pretty quick, it has many active hitboxes, and for whatever reason it can also easily kill.
-- Slightly nerf range and speed of Gravitational Pull. It's just too easy to use for how good it is.
-- Decrease BKB of certain Luma moves (U-tilt, U-air, D-air). The biggest argument for keeping the BKB so high is that it allows the moves to connect to Rosa's version, but why do they need to when they already have amazing frame data, surprising range, and good enough damage and power for their speed and range?
-- Increase time it takes Luma to respawn (13 seconds --> 15 seconds) to make it more worthwhile to kill Luma, but in exchange:
+ Make Luma have more health and survive more easily to make it harder to kill Luma, perhaps shifting the focus of her opponent.
+ Buff a lot of Rosalina's moves (better frame data, a bit stronger) to compensate for Luma being nerfed, and also to make Rosa not awful for the 15 seconds her Luma is gone.
+ Make Launch Star travel more quickly and a bit farther. Her gimpable recovery is one of her weaknesses, so this can help.


Voting for the psychic boy whose mother is alive, .

 

[Furret24]

Like everyone else so far, is fine how she is imo, but since a large majority of the smash community hates her "luma jank", I guess they could increase the amount of time it takes for luma to respawn (13 seconds > 25)

Voting for !

I don't you realize how long 25 seconds can be in Smash match. This would really hurt Rosalina, and for no good reason. Why not fix Luma's jank instead? I imagine that would fix what people really hate about her, without breaking her. :V

After all the nerfs that she received in Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update, Rosalina definitely isn't as strong as she once was. However, people have still complained about her being too strong, and yet all that you need to do is contain the Luma, and you've pretty much weakened Rosalina's offensive options for a while.

Anyway, there are some things that Rosalina has problems with, so I did do some attribute modifications on her. The most notable dilemma is her air speed, which is below average when compared to most other fighters. Combine that with the fact that Launch Star can't deal any damage, and you definitely have some recovery issues. And of course, Rosalina is the third slowest faller, so it's not easy for her to make safe landings if her adversary can walk faster than her air speed.

I did raise Rosalina's air speed to 1.25 (tied with Mewtwo) in hopes of improving her recovery issue, but this also makes Rosalina's air game more dangerous, especially when she edge-guards off-stage.

To finish things up, Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs, but her air speed issue can be a problem when your recovery move can't deal any damage, and sadly, Launch Star Attack is even less effective for recovery, as it halts Rosalina's momentum upon ending, and travels a shorter distance as well. On the other hand, making Rosalina faster in the air also makes her air game better, AND improves her longevity as well; you're basically countering one weakness with something that can potentially lead to even more hate.

I wouldn't call Rosalina's recovery good, but i'm not seeing it being a notable issue with her. It goes fast and far, while leaving her vulnerable to attack. It seems to get the job done if you mix it up a little.

Her average air speed might be an issue for you, but I see it more as a way to keep her in check. Her mobility is just average overall, slightly limiting all the crazy stuff she can do with her powerful moves. You can't give a character everything you know.

's in the same category as in my eyes, where I want to change things around but keep her the same overall viability. I'm fine with the character being so good, but I'm not fine with how janky Luma is and how weak solo Rosa is. The changes I'll list will probably slightly nerf her overall (I'm not sure), but they will hopefully make the complainers stop and change the character from "Rosalina AND LUMA" to "Rosalina and Luma":

-- Decrease KBG of jab finishers & Luma jab three. I'm sure we can all agree how ridiculous her jab is: it's quite easy to use, it has huge range (with Luma), it's pretty quick, it has many active hitboxes, and for whatever reason it can also easily kill.
-- Slightly nerf range and speed of Gravitational Pull. It's just too easy to use for how good it is.
-- Decrease BKB of certain Luma moves (U-tilt, U-air, D-air). The biggest argument for keeping the BKB so high is that it allows the moves to connect to Rosa's version, but why do they need to when they already have amazing frame data, surprising range, and good enough damage and power for their speed and range?
-- Increase time it takes Luma to respawn (13 seconds --> 15 seconds) to make it more worthwhile to kill Luma, but in exchange:
+ Make Luma have more health and survive more easily to make it harder to kill Luma, perhaps shifting the focus of her opponent.
+ Buff a lot of Rosalina's moves (better frame data, a bit stronger) to compensate for Luma being nerfed, and also to make Rosa not awful for the 15 seconds her Luma is gone.
+ Make Launch Star travel more quickly and a bit farther. Her gimpable recovery is one of her weaknesses, so this can help.
+ Buff neutral and/or side B's frame data.


Voting for the psychic boy whose mother is alive, .

Maybe it's just me, but these changes seem to buff Rosalina and Luma quite a bit instead of keeping them around the same viability. Most of the Luma nerfs were just fixing moves that needed to be toned down. In return, you made Rosalina on her own a lot better, without properly toning down Luma as compensation.

I think the main issue here is that you didn't go into detail with how much more durable you wanted to make Luma and buff Rosalina. How do you plan on making Luma "survive more easily"? How much better exactly do you want to make Rosalina's moves (I mean, she's still not all that bad without Luma)? More clarification on big changes would be nice.

I'll vote for .

 

[Tizio Random]

From a design standpoint, it makes sense that Luma is so overpowered while SoRo is not. Puppet > puppeteer. What I would like to see is maybe to reduce that hitboxes on Luma infinite jab and reduce Knockback on Luma dair and strong utilt.

One thing I would really like, but will never happen, is as soon as the 13 seconds when you have to wait for Luma to respawn you have to use the down taunt to make him reappear like she seems to do in her reveal trailer. So you have to first put you opponent in a positional disadvantage instead of just running away.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Despite being arguably the best character in Smash 4 at the moment, I stand by the belief that Rosalina needs no nerfs. I would completely understand if they nerfed the ridiculous base knockback on some of Luma's moves, though.
What she does need is her grab fixed, because that thing's hitbox is so jank compared to the animation it's not even funny.

After all the nerfs that she received in Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update, Rosalina definitely isn't as strong as she once was. However, people have still complained about her being too strong, and yet all that you need to do is contain the Luma, and you've pretty much weakened Rosalina's offensive options for a while.

Anyway, there are some things that Rosalina has problems with, so I did do some attribute modifications on her. The most notable dilemma is her air speed, which is below average when compared to most other fighters. Combine that with the fact that Launch Star can't deal any damage, and you definitely have some recovery issues. And of course, Rosalina is the third slowest faller, so it's not easy for her to make safe landings if her adversary can walk faster than her air speed.

I did raise Rosalina's air speed to 1.25 (tied with Mewtwo) in hopes of improving her recovery issue, but this also makes Rosalina's air game more dangerous, especially when she edge-guards off-stage.

To finish things up, Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs, but her air speed issue can be a problem when your recovery move can't deal any damage, and sadly, Launch Star Attack is even less effective for recovery, as it halts Rosalina's momentum upon ending, and travels a shorter distance as well. On the other hand, making Rosalina faster in the air also makes her air game better, AND improves her longevity as well; you're basically countering one weakness with something that can potentially lead to even more hate.

I don't think Rosalina has any recovery issues. Her only problem with recovering is that she's really easy to two-frame, although that's more of a problem with her height, rather than her overall recovery. I definitely wouldn't mind an air speed buff, though.

Guess I'll vote Ryu, too.

 

[Green Zelda]

I don't you realize how long 25 seconds can be in Smash match. This would really hurt Rosalina, and for no good reason. Why not fix Luma's jank instead? I imagine that would fix what people really hate about her, without breaking her. :V

You're right, 25 seconds is too long and unnecessary, my bad (and increasing the length it takes for luma to respawn probably isn't the way to go anyway )
They could instead weaken the power of luma overall, but like I said, is fine how she is (imo)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I wouldn't call Rosalina's recovery good, but i'm not seeing it being a notable issue with her. It goes fast and far, while leaving her vulnerable to attack. It seems to get the job done if you mix it up a little.

Her average air speed might be an issue for you, but I see it more as a way to keep her in check. Her mobility is just average overall, slightly limiting all the crazy stuff she can do with her powerful moves. You can't give a character everything you know.

I guess the problem that I have is that when you have to resort to Launch Star to recover high, Rosalina can't defend herself if the Luma isn't present. Having better air speed would at least help Rosalina avoid having to use Launch Star, unless she really needs it. And much like with Mewtwo, Rosalina levitates, though I only made small changes to her ground mobility, which are rather negligible (1.09 walk speed, and 1.65 run speed).

I know that this sounds rather selfish, but like I've said before, I've often wanted Rosalina to have one of the best air speed attributes of any fighter, only being slower than Yoshi and Jigglypuff (along with Limit Break Cloud, Wario-Man, and Giga Mac). Attribute hacking has made the air speed increase possible for me, but it's obviously something that can make competitive players quite salty if it ever saw daylight in a competitive environment.

 

[Axel311]

I think Rosa is mostly fine, but is clearly a top tier character and thus depending on your balance strategy could maybe use a nerf. I think a small reduction of luma base knockback would be warranted, because people dying at 30% off the top to an upair is not okay no matter how rarely it happens.

 

[Zerp]

Rush rush rush.
Here's her results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1G0bAhxr97Yy1_5jErjReCx90Dljbq14ok84IH8qkM6s/viewanalytics
Ness's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/tOObEQu9FRyMn4Gy1

You may vote for any of these new age retro hippies.
Edit: I vote for Ryu.

 

[MarioMeteor]

My opinion on Ness still hasn't changed. Nerf the Ebola Back Throw anything else would be an added bonus.

Voting Ryu.

 

[Furret24]

I still think Ness' back throw should be toned down. As far as kill throws go, it's still undeniably the best in the game by far, being able to kill even the heaviest of characters before 100% (the lightest of characters can die from it around 70% at the ledge if he has rage). I think reducing it's growth from 130 to 120 would make it kill around 10% later. It would still be really strong, but not kill so stupidly early.

While more of a personal thing, I wish up air was a little weaker. How is this scrawny kid swing his head harder than the likes of Bowser, DK, and other powerful heavyweights (to be fair, Ness can't combo into his uair from down throw)? I swear, this move kills lighter characters as early as 80% from center stage. :V

Still voting for

 

[L9999]

is controversial since most people hate him or can't SDI (like me) and because I play Ness you will probably acuse me of bias, but that goes for everyone, so please no double standard.

Double PKT on the left walls now working like the right walls. With it does, why not Ness?

And now the big one. Make Foward Tilt (this move is so bleh), all the hitboxes in Dash Attack and Nair kill Luma in one hit (like dash attack). Why killing Luma earlier? Easy, Ness gets owned hard by Luma, since her silly high knockback gets him offstage on a single touch, makes it hard to approach with his crappy range, and Luma on the edge spells doom. And what does Ness have to kill Luma in 1 hit? Foward Smash, PKFire, PKT2, PKT at the edge? All of these moves are laggy, punishable, and might not even come out. With Luma killed easier, Ness doesn't have to deal with it as much and actually have a chance to exploit Rosalina in the meantime, but the MU would still be garbage because Gravitational Gimp thread is always present and Ness needs to land a Luma 1HKO with his crappy range.

As always, my humble opinion.

I still think Ness' back throw should be toned down. As far as kill throws go, it's still undeniably the best in the game by far, being able to kill even the heaviest of characters before 100% (the lightest of characters can die from it around 70% at the ledge if he has rage). I think reducing it's growth from 130 to 120 would make it kill around 10% later. It would still be really strong, but not kill so stupidly early.

While more of a personal thing, I wish up air was a little weaker. How is this scrawny kid swing his head harder than the likes of Bowser, DK, and other powerful heavyweights (to be fair, Ness can't combo into his uair from down throw)? I swear, this move kills lighter characters as early as 80% from center stage. :V

Still voting for

The best kill throw is undeniably Mewtwo's. That requires no positioning and ceilings in Smash Wii U are a joke. Ness doesn't have a killing Hoo-hah, that's Lucas. Ness has a Hoo-hah at low-mid %, but it stales Uair.

And why does everyone complains about killing aerials? Almost everyone has them. ....

I vote the goddess of all upsets .

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Rush rush rush.
Here's her results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1G0bAhxr97Yy1_5jErjReCx90Dljbq14ok84IH8qkM6s/viewanalytics
Ness's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/tOObEQu9FRyMn4Gy1

You may vote for any of these new age retro hippies.

Um...Ness' dog is named King, Rush is Mega Man's dog.

The best kill throw is undeniably Mewtwo's. That requires no positioning and ceilings in Smash Wii U are a joke. Ness doesn't have a killing Hoo-hah, that's Lucas. Ness has a Hoo-hah at low-mid %, but it stales Uair.

And why does everyone complains about killing aerials? Almost everyone has them. ....

I vote the goddess of all upsets .

I think Ness' Back Throw is more powerful than Mewtwo's Up Throw because in my experience, Mewtwo's Up Throw doesn't KO under 100% on at least most characters unless he is on the highest platform or something (It did get close though). Ness' Back Throw on the other hand, if the opponent is at any high percent, and you are both at the corner, they're dead. Do I think it needs to be nerfed? I dunno.

Also, I don't hear complaints about half of these characters aerials. (In fact, I think the only complaint I've heard was for Cloud and that was because it was the icing on the cake for them.)

Lastly. Get rid of PK Flash helplessness!!!!!!!

 

[Furret24]

Yay, I reached the 3500 posts milestone with this post.

And now the big one. Make Foward Tilt (this move is so bleh), all the hitboxes in Dash Attack and Nair kill Luma in one hit (like dash attack). Why killing Luma earlier? Easy, Ness gets owned hard by Luma, since her silly high knockback gets him offstage on a single touch, makes it hard to approach with his crappy range, and Luma on the edge spells doom. And what does Ness have to kill Luma in 1 hit? Foward Smash, PKFire, PKT2, PKT at the edge? All of these moves are laggy, punishable, and might not even come out. With Luma killed easier, Ness doesn't have to deal with it as much and actually have a chance to exploit Rosalina in the meantime, but the MU would still be garbage because Gravitational Gimp thread is always present and Ness needs to land a Luma 1HKO with his crappy range.

Okay, but how do you want to do this? Do you want to make them do more damage? More knockback? Specifics would be nice.

The best kill throw is undeniably Mewtwo's. That requires no positioning and ceilings in Smash Wii U are a joke. Ness doesn't have a killing Hoo-hah, that's Lucas. Ness has a Hoo-hah at low-mid %, but it stales Uair.

I'm not seeing it. Ness' back throw has the potential to kill much earlier than Mewtwo's up throw (good luck killing with Mewtwo's up throw before 110%). Even if you're on the wrong ledge and have to send opponents away from the blastline you're near, it still kills about as early as Mewtwo's up throw.

Also, I know Ness doesn't have a Hoo Haa. That's why I said he doesn't.

And why does everyone complains about killing aerials? Almost everyone has them.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. What's the point of this bit? :V

Lastly. Get rid of PK Flash helplessness!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, please do this too. There is no reason for this move to put Ness in a helpless state.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Anyway, there are some things that Rosalina has problems with, so I did do some attribute modifications on her. The most notable dilemma is her air speed, which is below average when compared to most other fighters. Combine that with the fact that Launch Star can't deal any damage, and you definitely have some recovery issues. And of course, Rosalina is the third slowest faller, so it's not easy for her to make safe landings if her adversary can walk faster than her air speed.

I did raise Rosalina's air speed to 1.25 (tied with Mewtwo) in hopes of improving her recovery issue, but this also makes Rosalina's air game more dangerous, especially when she edge-guards off-stage.

I'm late I know, but might as well.
I don't mean to challenge you but I highly disagree with you.

The change you gave to Rosa's air speed would make her way more dangerous then she already is.
Since she's is tied with Peach, Megaman and Palutena for the best Air Acceleration, raising up her air speed to match Mewtwo ( The 3rd fastest air speed) would undeniably give her the best air mobility.

Result, a better defense to her already great defensive game, more punishes options, safe offensive tools and a godlike edge guarding.

IMO, she doesn't need THAT kind of a buff.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The change you gave to Rosa's air speed would make her way more dangerous then she already is.
Since she's is tied with Peach, Megaman and Palutena for the best Air Acceleration, raising up her air speed to match Mewtwo ( The 3rd fastest air speed) would undeniably give her the best air mobility.

Result, a better defense to her already great defensive game, more punishes options, safe offensive tools and a godlike edge guarding.

IMO, she doesn't need THAT kind of a buff.

To be fair, Rosalina's air "deceleration" is weaker than that of fighters like Wario, Yoshi, and Mr. Game & Watch, so changing direction would take a while longer for Rosalina than it would for those three fighters, even if their air acceleration is weaker.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Another character that I want changed but overall kept the same viability! Here we go:

-- Make B-throw (KBG: 130 --> 120) and PK Thunder 2 (KBG 80 --> 70) less powerful. They kill unfairly early in too many situations.
+ Make F-tilt have a good use.
+ Make PK Flash not put Ness into a helpless state.
+ Make PK Thunder 2 work properly on right walls like it does on left walls.
+ Buff certain attacks (Dash attack, N-air, F-air) to deal with Luma better so that matchup isn't awful.


Voting THE SUPER FIGHTING ROBOT, !!!

 

[Furret24]

To be fair, Rosalina's air "deceleration" is weaker than that of fighters like Wario, Yoshi, and Mr. Game & Watch, so changing direction would take a while longer for Rosalina than it would for those three fighters, even if their air acceleration is weaker.

Not really. G&W has horrible aerial acceleration, to sorta balance out his great deceleration. Despite his high deceleration, he still has issues turning around midair.. Rosalina would still turn around faster than him. Aerial deceleration in general comes into play a lot less than acceleration due to it's values universally being lower than acceleration (every single character excluding G&W has 0.5 or less). Look as Lucas. He has great aerial acceleration, but just average deceleration (0.1), yet he still turns around midair almost instantly.

While Wario may or may not turn around midair faster than her, she would definitely be able change direction faster than Yoshi and G&W.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In regards to Ness, I only really gave him small changes, but the most notable changes that I made is to his air acceleration and weight, which I raised to 0.1 and 97 respectively. Anyway, I can't really bring up much else for Ness.

 

[L9999]

Mewtwo's Up Throw may be weaker in terms of %, but my point is that once the opponent hits the 100s, which isn't hard for M2, and M2 has rage, M2 doesn't need to lure the opponent to the edge or predict its ledge option for optimal KO%, he can do it anywhere in the stage and don't care much about DI or weight like Ness.

For my Uair point. I assume people complain about it because its fast and hits like a truck, and my response was that almost every character has a similar option. Besides, for Ness, Uair makes up for not having an Up Smash, which is complete garbage.

As for my proposed Luma killers I placed an example. M2's dash attack. I proposed a similar interaction, in which Luma is knocked away on a single touch.

Sorry for not being clear.

And I can't believe I forgot PK Flash helplessness. Its unmemorable for how garbage it is.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Charizard's U-throw is technically stronger than Mewtwo's, but it generally kills later than Mewtwo's because DI affects its angle more. However, it can be used under a platform to get on top of it, allowing it to kill earlier. Also, Charizard's has small BKB but large KBG whereas Mewtwo's has slightly more BKB than KBG, so Mewtwo's will probably kill earlier if he uses it on a platform. Overall I would say Mewtwo's is slightly better because of its consistency, but Charizard's is still amazing.

(Lucas's U-throw is basically a weaker version of Mewtwo's, but it is the third strongest U-throw in the game.)

 

[Furret24]

Mewtwo's Up Throw may be weaker in terms of %, but my point is that once the opponent hits the 100s, which isn't hard for M2, and M2 has rage, M2 doesn't need to lure the opponent to the edge or predict its ledge option for optimal KO%, he can do it anywhere in the stage and don't care much about DI or weight like Ness.

The thing is, Ness' back throw is so powerful, it can still kill about as early as Mewtwo's even with poor positioning. With good positioning, it kills a lot earlier.

For my Uair point. I assume people complain about it because its fast and hits like a truck, and my response was that almost every character has a similar option. Besides, for Ness, Uair makes up for not having an Up Smash, which is complete garbage.

I think you have to keep context. Most characters with a really strong up air are heavyweights or characters designed to be crazy strong (ex. Glass Cannons). I mean, by your broad logic, Sheik's up air shouldn't have got a massive power nerd because other characters have similar very strong up airs.

As for my proposed Luma killers I placed an example. M2's dash attack. I proposed a similar interaction, in which Luma is knocked away on a single touch.

Sorry for not being clear.

I don't think this would be possible, as Ness' dash attack hits multiple times, while Mewtwo's is a single powerful hit.

 

[Zerp]

I think Ness is pretty well off and doesn't need any changes.

Also, I wasn't able to talk about her yesterday, but personally, in a perfectly balanced Smash, I feel like Rosalina and Luma should be the absolute strongest character in game with Luma, and the absolute weakest without Luma, yes, I know, most people dislike Luma jank, but if it mean't getting her balanced as possible I'm actually all for buffing Luma as long as we're nerfing Rosalina, and making it so they're slightly nerfed overall. Honestly, I feel she should be more dependent on Luma, letting Luma die should be a bit more detrimental than it is now imo, I feel like a puppeteer should rely on their puppet, also it would help teach the kiddies good parenting skillz. However, that's extremely unlikely to ever happen, so more realistically, I'd hope for slight nerfs overall, but not anything really big, I don't think she needs much.

Here's Ness's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1d7_Zb62A9mPFghtOygVbPJofgHrYNsrglfYCyNJV8d8/viewanalytics
Here's Ryu's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/tlPvcPAbrtJ0ktK82


You may vote for any of these people who's theme songs aren't as cool as Guile's.
I'll vote for .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ryu's good. Ryu's very good. Ryu just might be a little too good. I definitely think that true Shoryuken should get a little nerf, because it's a bit too strong for how easy it is to land. Other than that, a slight damage decrease would be nice, because it is damn near impossible to mount a comeback against Ryu when all of his combos do 50+%, and that's really not helpful when Shoryuken kills at like 80%. In return for that, maybe they can make his Tatsumaki good and give some of his other normals (forward tilt and crouching medium kick in particular) some more utility. More moveset variety.

Voting for Samus.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can't really say much about Ryu. But what really holds me back from getting him is the fact that you have to input specific button commands to get the best results with his attacks; this is something that you don't ever have to deal with for the other fighters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I can't really say much about Ryu. But what really holds me back from getting him is the fact that you have to input specific button commands to get the best results with his attacks; this is something that you don't ever have to deal with for the other fighters.

The inputs are pretty leaneant though. (almost too leaneant in some cases) But yeah. It can be a bit challenging to use these inputs on an impulse.

Other than that I don't have anything to say about Ryu.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Ryu is like Bidou: lots of potential but few people are willing to put in the work.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

's the one character I would be perfectly fine seeing at "god tier" without being nerfed. He has an extremely high skill ceiling, but if you don't know what you're doing, he's not that good. He shouldn't be nerfed, because he should greatly reward players who put unparalleled time into mastering him (like Trela).

Voting for the character whose final smash made D1 scream, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

I can't really say much about Ryu. But what really holds me back from getting him is the fact that you have to input specific button commands to get the best results with his attacks; this is something that you don't ever have to deal with for the other fighters.

The inputs aren't really that hard to do except for Shoryuken. And even then Shakunetsu isn't that much better than normal Hadouken, and Tatsumaki is trash anyway, so there's no reason to use it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The inputs aren't really that hard to do except for Shoryuken. And even then Shakunetsu isn't that much better than normal Hadouken, and Tatsumaki is trash anyway, so there's no reason to use it.

Last I've checked, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku is useful for horizontal recoveries, so it's not completely trash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The inputs aren't really that hard to do except for Shoryuken. And even then Shakunetsu isn't that much better than normal Hadouken, and Tatsumaki is trash anyway, so there's no reason to use it.

In my experience Shoryuken isn't all that hard to pull off (Although I have been playing MVC3 recently where everyone and their mother has a attack). I actually find that Haduken can be much harder when I'm trying to advance because it keeps reading a Shoryuken attack instead of a Haduken. Also, I'm no expert, but I think Shakunetsu Hadoken is made for mix ups, so if you catch your opponent off guard with the multi-hit instead of the single hit, they take some extra damage.

Last I've checked, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku is useful for horizontal recoveries, so it's not completely trash.

I think he meant as a means of attack, and I may be wrong but I don't think special input Tatsumaki Senpukyaku helps with distance more than regular input Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. You also run the risk of accidentally fast falling when under pressure.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Last I've checked, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku is useful for horizontal recoveries, so it's not completely trash.

Well, that's a given, but the input Tatsumaki doesn't give you any extra distance, so the only thing it's useful for is to maximize the damage for the one combo it has.

In my experience Shoryuken isn't all that hard to pull off (Although I have been playing MVC3 recently where everyone and their mother has a attack). I actually find that Haduken can be much harder when I'm trying to advance because it keeps reading a Shoryuken attack instead of a Haduken. Also, I'm no expert, but I think Shakunetsu Hadoken is made for mix ups, so if you catch your opponent off guard with the multi-hit instead of the single hit, they take some extra damage.

I just don't think the reward is worth the extra effort required to perform it. As a matter of fact, the Shakunetsu is actually WORSE than the Hadouken against fighters with Heavy Armor like Bowser. I kinda wish it had less ending lag so that you could combo after it.

 

[Stu R]

RYU IS SUPER SLOW ZERO STARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

RYU IS SUPER SLOW ZERO STARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um...That doesn't really offer anything to this thread. I mean, if you said why his speed was a bad thing (preferably not in all caps) then it would be much better. An on the fact that Ryu is slow, he isn't all that fast in the Street Fighter games either. Nobody is. I'd be willing to bet everyone is the same speed (or at least extremely close to it.)

I just don't think the reward is worth the extra effort required to perform it. As a matter of fact, the Shakunetsu is actually WORSE than the Hadouken against fighters with Heavy Armor like Bowser. I kinda wish it had less ending lag so that you could combo after it.

After some testing...Yeah don't use Sakunetsu Haduken on Bowser. Everyone else seems to be fair game though. There could be some moves that a character can use to get heavy armour, but I think more often than not you're probably dealing with super armour instead, and either way you could punish players for that anyway, so I'm going to stand by my opinion that Sakunetsu Haduken is at useful enough to put in the effort. (Unless you are afraid of accidentally doing a Shoryuken or a backwards Tatsumaki Senpukyaku instead.)