The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Yoshister]

I've never viewed her as the worst. I at least think she's better than Dedede, Zelda, Palutena, Ganondorf, and Bowser Jr. It's not much better, but it's better than dead last.

Yo.

Bowser Jr. Palootena are definitely better than Jigglypuff.

I could see an argument for her being better than the others tho.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yo.

Bowser Jr. Palootena are definitely better than Jigglypuff.

I could see an argument for her being better than the others tho.

Why are we on all the same threads?

Bowser Jr. maybe, if slightly, but not Palutena. Not with customs off, anyway.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Why are we on all the same threads?

Bowser Jr. maybe, if slightly, but not Palutena. Not with customs off, anyway.

Yea, good point, Palutena doesn't have the results or theory to support being above bottom tier

not

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yea, good point, Palutena doesn't have the results or theory to support being above bottom tier

not

Exactly, she doesn't. See, now you're getting it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Exactly, she doesn't. See, now you're getting it.

Yea, she doesn't when you exclude TLTC, Prince Ramen, and Iceninja's results, two of those players doing work in some of the biggest regions.

 

[Yoshister]

Why are we on all the same threads?

Bowser Jr. maybe, if slightly, but not Palutena. Not with customs off, anyway.

Palootena has good results at least. :V

 

[MarioMeteor]

Palootena has good results at least. :V

"Good" is an exaggeration. Moreso, she has results.

 

[Wintermelon43]

MarioMeteor http://bfy.tw/6ItT

You're Welcome.

 

[MarioMeteor]

MarioMeteor http://bfy.tw/6ItT

You're Welcome.

Congratulations, you've showed me absolutely nothing I didn't already know.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Congratulations, you've showed me absolutely nothing I didn't already know.

So then you know that Palutena has good results.

 

[Yoshister]

"Good" is an exaggeration. Moreso, she has results.

More results than other bottom tiers.

Besides Duck Hunt, but whether they're bottom tier or not is debatable.

 

[Wintermelon43]

More results than other bottom tiers.

Besides Duck Hunt, but whether they're bottom tier or not is debatable.

Duck Hunt's so far away from bottom tier, he's having trouble comphrending what that IS.

 

[MarioMeteor]

More results than other bottom tiers.

Besides Duck Hunt, but whether they're bottom tier or not is debatable.

So then you know that Palutena has good results.

Having more than none does mean that they're good. Jigglypuff has Seryender and CrazieCuban but no one's calling her results good.
At any rate, results neither make nor break a character, so this talk about who has more results than who is pointless, cause in the long run, results or not, Palutena is still bottom tier.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Having more than none does mean that they're good. Jigglypuff has Seryender and CrazieCuban but no one's calling her results good.
At any rate, results neither make nor break a character, so this talk about who has more results than who is pointless, cause in the long run, results or not, Palutena is still bottom tier.

Palutena's is better than "Having more than none". That would describe characters like Zelda and Ganon. Also, she actually has pretty good theory that is defitenly not bottom tier. They don't make her like high-mid or anything, but still, it's ok at least. Her aierals are great, she has good ko power, she has some good combos, she has good throws, etc. Startup and ending lag problems are bad though, and some moves are almost completatly ruined from it.

Also RDR7 has better results with Jigglypuff than those mentioned (Although Sery's is good too). Just thought I'd let you know.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Palutena's is better than "Having more than none". That would describe characters like Zelda and Ganon. Also, she actually has pretty good theory that is defitenly not bottom tier. They don't make her like high-mid or anything, but still, it's ok at least. Her aierals are great, she has good ko power, she has some good combos, she has good throws, etc. Startup and ending lag problems are bad though, and some moves are almost completatly ruined from it.

If theory was really and truly this important, than Roy would be top tier.

Also RDR7 has better results with Jigglypuff than those mentioned (Although Sery's is good too). Just thought I'd let you know.

I keep hearing about this guy, but I never see him play.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If theory was really and truly this important, than Roy would be top tier.


I keep hearing about this guy, but I never see him play.

..........I.............. honestly don't even know what to say anymore.

Roy's potential is not good at all whatsoever

btw, just search up "RDR7" and gameplay of him should show up.

 

[Yoshister]

If theory was really and truly this important, than Roy would be top tier.

I'm pretty sure Roy's theory is considered pretty bad.

I keep hearing about this guy, but I never see him play.

Then actually watch some of his matches lmao.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm pretty sure Roy's theory is considered pretty bad.

I don't know who told you that, but if you think a swordsman among the fastest on the ground and air who can kill you at like, 80% and possesses tilts that hit like smash attacks sounds bad, I think your standards are a bit too high.

Then actually watch some of his matches lmao.

Because I never thought to do that. I can't find anything of him.

 

[Yoshister]

I don't know who told you that, but if you think a swordsman among the fastest on the ground and air who can kill you at like, 80% and possesses tilts that hit like smash attacks sounds bad, I think your standards are a bit too high.

You're forgetting his flaws.
Bad recovery, combo food, getting walled out easily, mediocre combo game, and bad frame data heavily outweigh his strengths imo.

Because I never thought to do that. I can't find anything of him.

It literally took me six seconds of Google searching to find this:

 

[MarioMeteor]

You're forgetting his flaws.
Bad recovery, combo food, getting walled out easily, mediocre combo game, and bad frame data heavily outweigh his strengths imo.

Ignoring the fact that all but two of these are untrue, of course Roy has his weaknesses, just like any other character. That doesn't make his positives any less... positive.

It literally took me six seconds of Google searching to find this:

Well, thank you for saving me six seconds of my life.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ignoring the fact that all but two of these are untrue, of course Roy has his weaknesses, just like any other character. That doesn't make his positives any less... positive.


Well, thank you for saving me six seconds of my life.

.....Only one, maybe two of those are false. Which ones do you think are false.

I don't know who told you that, but if you think a swordsman among the fastest on the ground and air who can kill you at like, 80% and possesses tilts that hit like smash attacks sounds bad, I think your standards are a bit too high.


Because I never thought to do that. I can't find anything of him.

He is in no way amoung the fastest in the ground and air, he rarely kills you at 80% (Maybe forward smash does? idk, either way that would be the only time regardless), and his tilts sren't even close to hitting like smash attacks

 

[Yoshister]

gnoring the fact that all but two of these are untrue, of course Roy has his weaknesses, just like any other character. That doesn't make his positives any less... positive.

So here are your three positives:
1. Among the fastest on the ground and air
2. Can kill you at 80%
3. Possesses tilts that hit like smash attacks

Roy only has two moves that kills before 95% (If we don't factor DI or rage in): Side smash and Flare Blade. Only one of those isn't absurdly hard to land.
His other smashes kill surprisingly late.
Also, his tilts don't hit like smashes. Smashes usually kill before 100%, not 115+%.

He is among the fastest though, so 1 is correct.

Well, thank you for saving me six seconds of my life.

You're welcome.

 

[MarioMeteor]

So here are your three positives:
1. Among the fastest on the ground and air
2. Can kill you at 80%
3. Possesses tilts that hit like smash attacks

Roy only has two moves that kills before 95% (If we don't factor DI or rage in): Side smash and Flare Blade. Only one of those isn't absurdly hard to land.
His other smashes kill surprisingly late.
Also, his tilts don't hit like smashes. Smashes usually kill before 100%, not 115+%.

He is among the fastest though, so 1 is correct.

I was speaking vaguely. Those are far from his only positives, but I'm not getting into a whole essay on why Roy isn't bad for the third time.

You're welcome.

I have to say, I think Seryender is a little bit better.

 

[L9999]

What the hell happened here? I thought we were talking about DHD. For, , I would make his Smash attacks connect better, remove the stupid sourpots from his aerials and make Nair have less landing lag. So, this way he has consistent kill options without changing throws. I have heard that DHD's throws are good for Can jank, so I wouldn't change those. As for recovery, in real life how many people actually gimp DHD or have a consistent option to gimp him? (not counting ) He can protect himself with the can and spikes suck in this game.

Voting .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The problem with Duck Hunt's recovery move is that the duo is completely helpless with no way to defend themselves while trying to get back on-stage. The duo would have to recover low, but since Duck Jump is slow with its vertical ascent, you could fall short if Duck Hunt falls too far below the stage ledge; this is one reason for why I decreased Duck Hunt's falling speed.

 

[420quickscoper]

I was speaking vaguely. Those are far from his only positives, but I'm not getting into a whole essay on why Roy isn't bad for the third time.


I have to say, I think Seryender is a little bit better.

Then how about you tell us how Roy is top tier if theory matters so much?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Then how about you tell us how Roy is top tier if theory matters so much?

You just got about three things wrong in that one little sentence. Go back and re-read what I said, then come back and try that again.

 

[Zerp]

I swear, regardless of what thread it is, regardless if it's about speculation, viability or even Fire Emblem itself, it's always without fail Roy that sparks the most debate, seriously, I wonder what's up with that? Is that Roy's hidden ability or something?

Anyways, about Duck Hunt, I think he could use some general all-around quality of life buffing plus fixing how his smash attacks connect, and maybe helping out his recovery a bit.
Here's Duck Hunt Duo's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dey3PXcGOTifvr-uAQQjGii0Qvt7-qeIlMd8w8UrXCY/viewanalytics
Here's his Majesty Dedede's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/uD6LpaQm4oHmFout2
<-- You can vote for any of these characters who may or may not be hoarding all the kingdom's food.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Oh, , why does Sakurai hate you? You weren't even THAT good at release, and yet you kept getting undeservedly nerfed. He's now almost bottom tier in my eyes, and he desperately needs some buffs:

+Revert ALL of his nerfs. There's no logical proof that any of his tools were broken (besides POSSIBLY Gordo hitbox size), so they should stay the same. On top of that:
+Increase air speed (0.658 --> 0.7), so it's still the slowest but actually works.
+Increase jump height a little so his recovery doesn't mostly rely on up B.
+Decrease startup of jab by two frames (AF 10-11 --> 8-9 // FAF 38 --> 36) so it is more reliable of a combo starter or breaker.
+Decrease endlag of U-tilt (FAF 44 --> 40) for better combo ability.
+Slightly increase KBG of F-throw (80 --> 85) so it's a more reliable kill option.
+Decrease landing lag of F-air (30 --> 20) so even after power un-nerfing, it isn't wholly outclassed by B-air.
+Make D-air MUCH less laggy (AF 22-23 --> 16-17 // FAF 48 --> 38 // Landing lag 30 --> 20) and remove its sourspot (Base dmg. 15/15/8 --> 15 // Angle 270/361/361 --> 270 // KBG 90/100/100 --> 90).
+Further increase Gordo reflect % to 4.5, decrease its lag (startup 29 --> 26 // FAF 64 --> 58), and make it always stick to walls (no longer based on RNG).
+Increase KBG of fully charged Jet Hammer to make it worth using (KBG 66/70 --> 85).


Voting .

 

[L9999]

DDD's Gordos were nerfed because they are obnoxious online. While their hitbox isn't anything special, trying to reflect them consistently without disjoints and still have an advantageous position is not an easy task. Gordos are more of a conditioning/ledge trap move more than it is a projectile, and people try to use Gordo as a conventional projectile, and on the ledge it is really freaking good. For what it is worth, DDD is almost ungimpable. He has Giant aerials to keep edgeguarders off, he is súper heavy so he won't be far away without jumps, and Up B goes through everything. DDD sucks when he is ledgeguarded, but that goes for every heavy in the game. I agree with everything else though.

Voting

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'd pretty much raise Dedede's air speed to 0.7. I also raised his walk speed to 1, though these changes probably won't make too much of a difference.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Dedede severly needs buffs. I think he should get a kill throw and a combo throw, have gordos be harder to reflect, have less startup, endlag, and landing lag on a few of his moves, make down air a move, etc

I vote for

 

[Zerp]

I think it goes without saying that King Dedede needs more than a bit of an upgrade, and while he hasn't been ignored in quite the same way, he's a lot like Jigglypuff in that he's been waiting quite a while for buffs and hasn't gotten any, (and actually recived quite a few nerfs) at this point I don't care much about what he gets and rather just hope he gets something.

Here's His Majesty's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1IidtlY6ntX16gFgGJRtQJ1w-0Bl3M-_I7JyicTfK4uk/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Swordfighter's poll http://goo.gl/forms/VtZ2pSkvjwADfiRA2

Also, while you can are welcome to talk about any ruleset's version of Mii Swordfighter you want to, please keep in mind that the poll has the Guest XXXX ruleset in mind.

You can vote for any of these fine individuals.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I don't know anything about Swordfighter.

I vote for

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I don't know much besides that he needs some buffs. I haven't played with any Mii besides Gunner for a long time, sorry about that.

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

I swear, regardless of what thread it is, regardless if it's about speculation, viability or even Fire Emblem itself, it's always without fail Roy that sparks the most debate, seriously, I wonder what's up with that? Is that Roy's hidden ability or something?

Anyways, about Duck Hunt, I think he could use some general all-around quality of life buffing plus fixing how his smash attacks connect, and maybe helping out his recovery a bit.
Here's Duck Hunt Duo's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dey3PXcGOTifvr-uAQQjGii0Qvt7-qeIlMd8w8UrXCY/viewanalytics
Here's his Majesty Dedede's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/uD6LpaQm4oHmFout2
<-- You can vote for any of these characters who may or may not be hoarding all the kingdom's food.

Until someone (developer or otherwise) does something with our boy, his viability is probably going to remain a... heated topic.

So Mii Swordfighter, I wish Blurring Blade (I think that's the name of it) broke shields. I mean, it's obviously supposed to be Shield Breaker, so... what the hell?

 

[Zerp]

Personally I feel like Guest XXXX Mii Swordfighter isn't really bad per se, just could use some tuning changes.
Here's Mii Swordfighter's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Pjb8PaQHzrbtqEjTMI-xSk-2KJZlQ1f9CESUZirsToc/viewanalytics
Here's Donkey Kong's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/G2rA0UPcvyI0uxPu2

You can vote for any of these people who may or may not be plagued with a terrible case of the memes.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I would like it if they took away the Ding Dong, or at least made it less effective, and gave him some other buffs to compensate.

Voting Cloud.

 

[Axel311]

As a DK main I agree with above. I wish they'd remove the ding dong or make it so the grab KO followup isn't so braindead. In return, give him buffs in other areas. Perhaps general frame data improvements for moves like fair, dair, up B landing on stage, ect. Maybe give giant punch more frames of super armor. Balancing DK by giving him the ding dong has always felt jank and lazy design.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I wish there were a "Changed, but overall the same viability" option in the poll, because that's where would go in my eyes. His Ding Dong (and cargo up throw in general) is a bit ridiculous, and I would honestly nerf that, but he still has a lot of smaller flaws that need to be addressed. The changes I would make:

-- Reduce Cargo U-throw's damage, and increase its knockback to more-than-compensate (Base Dmg. 10 --> 8, BKB 58 --> 60, KBG 52 --> 60). This makes his Ding Dong less ridiculous and makes throw combos not do as much damage, so grabs aren't the central focus of his gameplay.
+ Decrease end lag of F-tilt (FAF 38 --> 35).
+ Make U-smash scoop (new hitbox: AF 10-11, Base Dmg. 2, Angle 80/100, WBKB 80, KBG 0).
+ Increase N-air's range.
+ Make Giant Punch not put DK into freefall. It already has enough end lag without it and doesn't help with recovery, why freefall?
+ Speed up Headbutt (AF 20-21 --> 17-18, FAF 64 --> 58).
+ Speed up Hand Slap (ground: AF 19-20,30-31... --> 16-17,27-28...; FAF 75 --> 65 // aerial: AF 19-21,28-31 --> 15-17,24-26; FAF 62 --> 58).


Voting the other beastly bane of Mario, .