The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[MarioMeteor]

Falco's on the verge of being good. Now that his smash attacks no longer suck, I think that with a faster run speed, Blaster, and down air, he'll be golden.

Voting Ike.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Run speed increase would be great, but too many blaster and D air buffs might push him towards Melee and Brawl status, which they probably wouldn't want to do. Anyway, the other buffs I would suggest are making dash attack and up B better. Dash attack would just mean less end lag. But why is Falco's up B worse in every way than Fox's? It used to be that Fox's was better for recovery but Falco's was better for offense, but now Fox's is better for both. Since Falco's recovery is already better than Fox's, I think his up B should do more damage and knockback to make the two on par overall.

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Run speed increase would be great, but too many blaster and D air buffs might push him towards Melee and Brawl status, which they probably wouldn't want to do. Anyway, the other buffs I would suggest are making dash attack and up B better. Dash attack would just mean less end lag. But why is Falco's up B worse in every way than Fox's? It used to be that Fox's was better for recovery but Falco's was better for offense, but now Fox's is better for both. Since Falco's recovery is already better than Fox's, I think his up B should do more damage and knockback to make the two on par overall.

Voting .

He'd have to be good first to get to Melee and Brawl status. It would make him similar to his previous iterations in terms of structure yes, but he has a long way to go to reach them in viability.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

It should also be noted that in Star Fox Assault, Falco actually has above average mobility on the ground.

Not to challenge you or anything like that, but in Assault, Wolf had the best ground mobility over Fox who had average ground mobility.
Brawl or Sm4sh really didn't consider those stats.



As for my opinions on the Air Fighter, I always felt he a bit little too light for what he was.
Yeah Fox is lighter and has a slightly more puinshable recovery than Falco, but Fox has a significantly better ground and combo game over what can Falco do. (From what I've seen at least)

So maybe a boost in weight units could help him, say maybe 82 to 87?

 

[L9999]

A few frames off his Blaster and some ground mobility buffs would improve him a lot.

 

[Zerp]

If your wondering why this is 40 minutes early, that'd be because the internet may or may not go out at 5:00, hopefully it'll stay up, but just to be safe I'll post this now. Edit: Turns out, it didn't luckily, so uh, just pretend this was posted at 5:30

Personally, I prefer the air that we give Falco some buffs, not sure what kind, but he deserves something.
Falco's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1DE9w079QcNQnUM5S7wHAKBNY1VT4jTTnjHXGVsJaYkQ/viewanalytics
Ike's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/w9E5WPcH5AR9ayJK2
<-- You can vote for any of these people who are friends of Ike.

Also, uh, don't expect it to be on time tomorrow, and Friday I probably will also have to wait till the day after that, since I'll be flying back home that day, sorry for how shaky this week's been.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ike is in a similar situation to Falco. He just needs a little something and he'll be great. Maybe decreased knockback on his down tilt to make it better for comboing? Or a better down air? Better grabs?

Voting Lucario.

 

[Deleted member]

Attributes

• Walk acceleration increased (0 → 0.1).

Down air

• Sweetspot has more active frames (frame 16-18 → frame 16-19)
• Sweetspot damage increased (15% → 16%).
• Sweetspot knockback increased (30 BKB, 100 KBG → 40 BKB, 100 KBG).
• Spike hitbox increased to cover the entire length of his sword.
• Sourspots now the hilt and Ike's body.
• New hitbox added: this is a lingering sourspot (frames 20-36).

Forward smash

• Has less cooldown (FAF 84 → FAF 76).
• Knockback is increased (40 BKB, 90 KBG → 46 BKB, 98 BKG).
• Sourspot removed, now replaced with the values of the sweetspot.

Down smash

• Has reduced startup (frame 13 → frame 11).
• Back hit startup reduced (frame 32 → frame 27).
• Back hit hitbox duration now matches the front, lasting one more frame.

Up Special | Aether

• Can now ledge snap during startup of the attack.
• Super armor frames increased (frames 18-21 → frames 16-38).

Neutral Special | Eruption

• Eruption spike hitbox now works on aerial targets, but only spikes when not at full power.

Side Special | Quick Draw

• No longer causes helplessness on hit.
• Hitbox size increased so the hit does not whiff at close range.
• It has less ending lag (FAF 57 travel, FAF 59 attack → FAF 49 travel, FAF 51 attack).
• Now bounces when hitting an aerial opponent, similar to Captain Falcon’s Raptor Boost.

Down Special | Counter

• Damage multiplier increased (1.2x → 1.25x).
• Intangibility increased (frames 1-5 → 1-6).

Jab

• Jab 3 does 1% more damage.

Forward tilt

• Does more damage (12.5% → 13.5%)

Down tilt

• Deals 1% more damage (8% → 9%)
• Startup slightly decreased (frame 7 → frame 6).
• This changes its hitbox duration (frame 7-8 → frame 6-7).
• Has an altered angle that makes it more reliable for starting combos (80° → 85°).
• KBG reduced accordingly (70 → 60).
• BKB reduced to make it more reliable as a combo starter (70 → 65).

Up throw

• KBG reduced (72 → 66).

All of these is just stuff to help round out his design a bit more. Down air and fsmash are all quite undertuned for a character who's meant to be a hard-hitting, brute swordsman. I'd say Counter too to a lesser extent.

Eruption's change was just a bit of an improvement so the explosion above his sword is more threatening to those recovering high, and the sword itself spikes. Aether as it is is way too vulnerable as a recovery. I understand that's a clear design intention considering Ike's overall solid neutral and fearsome power, but he gets cheated hard at the ledge when recovering especially by other characters' counters and such.

Down smash is garbage, so this just makes it more worthwhile and not it be outclassed by up smash.

My intention for down tilt was to make it better as a combo starter like 's. The increased damage has compensated knockback and won't allow for any kill confirms considering Ike still has a frame 7 jumpsquat attached to him.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I feel like is just barely good enough to not REALLY need buffs. His huge flaws that could be slightly fixed are his bad frame data, mediocre approaching, and gimpable recovery, but his good combos and range and great power and damage all make up for it. Maybe if down tilt had a bit less end lag, smashes had less lag, and down air had more active frames (akin to Cloud's), then I could see him easily being high tier. At the moment, though, I don't think he can be higher than mid tier, even with his pretty good results.

+D-tilt FAF 29 --> 26
+F-smash active hitbox 31-32 --> 29-30; FAF 84 --> 78
+U-smash FAF 71 --> 69
+D-smash active hitbox 13-15,32-33 --> 11-13,30-32; FAF 71 --> 69
+D-air new hitbox: active frames 18-35, other stats same as Cloud's late D-air

Voting .

Side Special | Quick Draw

• No longer causes helplessness on hit.

Just saying, that already is the case.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I find it humorous that down tilt, down smash, and down air are all flawed in some way.

There was an idea that just occurred to me: they could decrease the FAF of his jab 1 and 2, which would give him options out of his jab like he had in Brawl.

 

[Wintermelon43]

imo he should be buffed.

I don't know that much about Ike though, so idk what to buff. His approaching and/or frame data could be made a little better, and down air I guess could be buffed to be more usable.

 

[Zerp]

If your wondering why this is so late, a splitting migraine with a touch of sleep deprivation would be your answer. Fun stuff.

I begrudgingly feel like Ike could and should get some buffs, but I really don't want them, he's already got so much, he needs to learn how to share.

Here's Ike's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/197ARiC-WnPqMPV9ZyJz6ehOzd8bgOuEsfRwipl2z8ok/viewanalytics
Here's Lucas's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Ohlo2Yk2RwoWbxvD2
<-- You can vote for any of these fine specimens, just as long as you don't expose them to any sort of radiation.

I'll vote for

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don't see much wrong with Lucas at all. Not now that he has a decently fast grab with three throws that kill and one that can kill confirm. He's not as annoying to fight as Ness, but still.

If your wondering why this is so late, a splitting migraine with a touch of sleep deprivation would be your answer. Fun stuff.

Sounds like you need Dr. Mario, so I'll vote for him.

 

[Smashifer]

I think this is the only thing that should be fixed, maaayyybe make his fair a little stronger? Idk but the main issue is nair

Also, I vote

 

[ElectroLightning]

Voting for our boy (Roy)!

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I honestly think people are still underrating . Yes, his N-air can be SDI'ed out of, but that doesn't take away his huge combo potential as it still does damage and puts people in a great position to continue a combo. He has a workable neutral game, a much better recovery than Ness, a great kill confirm, great combos and aerials, and good edgeguarding. I could honestly see him as top 20 in the future after the work Taiheita, Pink Fresh, Clade, and several others have put into his meta game, and I think he's a high tier contender who's fine as is.

Voting .

 

[Airpoizon]

really only issue(s) is his nair and being kinda clunky tbh. He's pretty underrated as well. I've seen people put him in low tier sometimes.

Let's vote for our boy

 

[L9999]

is finally doing stuff after a hundred years. It's incredible he is doing so well despite being nerfed to hell from Brawl. He shouldn't have his autocancels back. He would break shields like nobody's business. One thing that bothers me is that a game tip says his Up Smash hits at the edge and it does not. That needs a fix. I would say remove helpless from PK Freeze since it's pointless, and making PKT easier to control.

Voting , no one's favorite princess.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Actually, just thought of this now, but his up smash could use a little power buff. Right now it's so laggy, and it's not even that powerful given how much lag it has. At least in Brawl it was stupid strong to make up for its lag, but now it's less powerful than ones that are less laggy? That's kinda unfair...

U-smash Hit 2 KBG 77 --> 85

 

[MarioMeteor]

Right now it's so laggy, and it's not even that powerful given how much lag it has.

Story of Jigglypuff's life.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Actually, just thought of this now, but his up smash could use a little power buff. Right now it's so laggy, and it's not even that powerful given how much lag it has. At least in Brawl it was stupid strong to make up for its lag, but now it's less powerful than ones that are less laggy? That's kinda unfair...

U-smash Hit 2 KBG 77 --> 85

I don't think that's completely necessary because in my experience, if they get hit at any point of the move, they're dead. Though, this is coming from the person who plays against braindead CPUs, and probably is a braindead CPU in terms of battle style.

Also, what's with the weird helplessness for PK Freeze? It seems to be a running trend in this game. Off the top of my head, PK Flash and the aforementioned PK Freeze, Din's Fire (And it's Mii variant), Noseferatu, The alternate version of Shulk's Vision, Ultimate Uppercut, and Squall Hammer (Oh wait wrong game) all cause helplessness, without being a viable recovery option, while moves like Afterburner Kick (at least I think that's what it's called), Falco Phantasm, and Tatsu...Tatsu...The spinny kick thing are crucial to recovery and give no helplessness. It just doesn't make sense.

EDIT: It's Tatsumaki Senpukyaku...how come I keep hearing Hazueki Senpukya?
...Oh well. Peanut Butter! Hands off my bread!

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don't think that's completely necessary because in my experience, if they get hit at any point of the move, they're dead. Though, this is coming from the person who plays against braindead CPUs, and probably is a braindead CPU in terms of battle style.

Also, what's with the weird helplessness for PK Freeze? It seems to be a running trend in this game. Off the top of my head, PK Flash and the aforementioned PK Freeze, Din's Fire (And it's Mii variant), Noseferatu, The alternate version of Shulk's Vision, Ultimate Uppercut, and Squall Hammer (Oh wait wrong game) all cause helplessness, without being a viable recovery option, while moves like Afterburner Kick (at least I think that's what it's called), Falco Phantasm, and Tatsu...Tatsu...The spinny kick thing are crucial to recovery and give no helplessness. It just doesn't make sense.

EDIT: It's Tatsumaki Senpukyaku...how come I keep hearing Hazueki Senpukya?
...Oh well. Peanut Butter! Hands off my bread!

Oh, you mean the Teriyaki Seppuku?

In all seriousness, it makes perfect sense. If the Tatsumaki or Fox Illusion or After Burner Kick caused helplessness, their respective characters' recovery would be ****. Ryu depends on Tatsumaki for his horizontal recovery and Shoryuken for vertical recovery, he'd be Little Mac-tier in terms of recovery if Tatsumaki made him helpless. Meanwhile, PK Freeze isn't going to help you recover regardless of whether it makes you helpless or not.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Lucas should probably be buffed, but idk where outside of nair not being able to be SDI'ed out of.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Oh, you mean the Teriyaki Seppuku?

In all seriousness, it makes perfect sense. If the Tatsumaki or Fox Illusion or After Burner Kick caused helplessness, their respective characters' recovery would be ****. Ryu depends on Tatsumaki for his horizontal recovery and Shoryuken for vertical recovery, he'd be Little Mac-tier in terms of recovery if Tatsumaki made him helpless. Meanwhile, PK Freeze isn't going to help you recover regardless of whether it makes you helpless or not.

I know it would be really...really stupid to make Afterburner Kick and the like give you helplessness. That would be broken . My point was that PK Freeze doesn't help in recovery, but still make you helpless, but many other recovery moves don't.

 

[ElectroLightning]

PK Freeze really needs a buff, maybe not granting helpnessness.

 

[Zerp]

Eh, I think Lucas could go for a bit more but I dunno how much he really needs it, Nair and PK freeze couldn't hurt though.
Here's Lucas's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17ROrMqkp7c1mi1clbfeb5gbVmF0JtaC2eMhzZdX8gnc/viewanalytics
Here's Roy's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/r6HwvyR128gltggB3
<-- You can vote for any of these people who are not our boy.

Also, the scheduling is back to normal now, you can expect stuff at the correct time again

 

[Wintermelon43]

Roy desperatly needs buffs to muitiple things. Right now he seems undertuned in some ways

I vote for

 

[MarioMeteor]

Roy needs buffs, but he won't die without them. First and foremost, better range and better autocancels. After that, I'd like it if his attributes didn't work against him. He'd be much better if he didn't fall faster than Sonic fell from glory. He's still my boy, though.

Voting Jigglypuff.

 

[Furret24]

Roy needs buffs, but he won't die without them. First and foremost, better range and better autocancels. After that, I'd like it if his attributes didn't work against him. He'd be much better if he didn't fall faster than Sonic fell from glory. He's still my boy, though.

Voting Jigglypuff.

Roy has already died without them.

Anyway, Roy is a pretty bad character who could use some buffs.

Voting for .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Roy has already died without them.

Anyway, Roy is a pretty bad character who could use some buffs.

Voting for .

He's still being played, so he's alive as far as I'm concerned. Hell, if anything he's more alive than he was when he first came out.

 

[Wintermelon43]

He's still being played...

...By no one

(Except Herro and that other roy main)

 

[Arthur97]

He's still fun to play as...I'll go now.

 

[MarioMeteor]

...By no one

(Except Herro and that other roy main)

By StaticManny, by Sethlon, by Neo, and by Ryo. You call that no one?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Being my 7th main, Roy is blast to play... ...if I'm going against another low tier.
Despite having great punish-ability, Roy suffers with surprisingly limited range, decent at best frame data, and awkward way of approaching. Which is strange since he's design to play rushdown, yet he has landing lag on his short and even full hop aerials with high auto cancel windows.
That horribly cripples Roy and his other tools don't do much to help him.

• His grab range (like most sword fighters) is pitiful.
• Foward throw into dash attack is the only combo that does reliable damage stops working after mid percents.
• Up throw with 150% rage kills later than Pacman's Back throw by the ledge.
• Down throw can sometimes combo.
• Back throw has little to no use.
• All of his sourspots (except maybe Up-Air's) are weak with no combo ability, not to mention his down air can hardly spike due to the stupid sourspot on his sword. Why take Ike's D-air and make it worse?
• Flare Blade is too limit on speed and range to be much use aside from an instant kill from Shield Breaks.
• Double Edge Dance is very inconsistent on whether or not it will link into itself or even take the next input.
• The aerial version of Blazer might as well be the poorman's version of the grounded one. It has no armor on start up, does less damage and it can't even kill.

It's seems like Roy is trapped where he can't really combo or kill due to how half of his moves work, sound like they didn't know where they wanted to go with Roy.

Anyway, rant over.
If Roy were to receive any buff to make up for his strange design choice, I take em.


I vote for

 

[L9999]

A general increase of range. His range is kinda bad and having pathetic weak sourspots doesn't help.
Some more knockback on sourspots. Something to make them not completely worthless and unsafe.
Flare Blade: The sword now has a hitbox. Seriously, who though that is was funny to make the hitbox only the explosion?
Fiery Blade Dance 1: More air stall. Blazer's hitboxes make it tricky to edgeguard Roy but another mixup is welcomed.
Blazer: This thing should kill at the very least. I know it kinda does, but getting that specific hitbox is luck based.
Combo Down Tilt back.
Tamer autocancel windows.
Bigger grab range.
Up Throw more knockback scaling.

 

[Deleted member]

This thread is now obsolete with the introduction of hacks.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

This thread is now obsolete with the introduction of hacks.

No it isn't.

This is a discussion thread about what we want to see from the official patches, hacks are not official.
Even if the game receive prefect balance through hacks (which still doesn't mean anything if we're talking about officials), this thread still has significance for being up discussion.

That's a pretty bold statement to make, regardless of you're reasons.

 

[ElectroLightning]

...By no one

(Except Herro and that other roy main)

Sethlon?

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy I find to be like Lucina where he exists as Marth's shadow... In theoryland he's even with him, but in practice he's held back because of a misguided attempt at balance.

Probably the biggest probablem is that his tippers are incredibly unrewarding besides on maybe two or three attacks, and he's playing with what's basically Marth's frame data. If you want him to function you either need to give him better frame data to justify the typically low reward or just increase the reward.

Still has a ton of other problems though. His punish game is commonly sited as the only real strength he has, but even then I can look at "vanilla" Pit and say his punishes are generally equal or better. Then there's things like the hilt on Marth's Uair being stronger then the hilt on Roy's Uair... They really just need to redo everything.

His range is perfectly fine, though the frame data attached to it, not so much. Rather not have to deal with a bunch of phantom hits myself.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This thread is now obsolete with the introduction of hacks.

No it isn't.

This is a discussion thread about what we want to see from the official patches, hacks are not official.
Even if the game receive prefect balance through hacks (which still doesn't mean anything if we're talking about officials), this thread still has significance for being up discussion.

That's a pretty bold statement to make, regardless of you're reasons.

Besides, with the exception of Project M (which is its own thing anyway) hacks aren't used in competitive play. Official adjustments to the roster are much better.