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IS top tier. His consistency, his ridiculous frame data, and his jank Up Smash cannot be matched. Only are better.Fighting double Pit is a nightmare. They never let you land and they gimp you without effort. IMO the same pain as playing against
in FG.
You forget Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus, and some people would argue that Sonic is better. I think he's #4 or #5, just shy of top tier.
and possibly .
are. They all are either 100% balanced or need only the slightest changes in order to get there, which makes them very viable without being obnoxious.
I highly disagree with him being below Mario. Anyway, I'd like to see them tone down his Limit Break Side-B and his side smash and then we could see if he needs more nerfs from there. His design is not too bad though, but his killing potential is a bit too safe and strong right now (combined with that kit).
Cloud has raw power for days, yes, but in terms of actually using that power, he's lacking. Cloud only has a few reliable kill moves, and of them, Limit Cross Slash is the only one that KOs noticeably early. I think LCS is a fair enough reward for breaking a limit, and his forward smash is too slow to be of real use.
This is actually very similar to one of my favorite doubles teams,Also,
and as Zard is fast and powerful and is good at wresting stage control from the opponents and tanks hits for Pika, while Pika is phenomenal at edgeguarding the foes that Zard hits offstage, and as mentoned before, can annoy opponents really well. I would imagine that Bowser is very similar to Charizard's role. He might do it better too as he has a bit less ground speed, but a bit more air speed and power.
, and duh./s, and , I personally think their all pretty viable while not being overly oppressive, I'm pretty happy with all of them. Also, I think the current is in that category but it's too early to be absolutely certain.
You might be right about his forward smash. I still think Limit Cross Slash kills a bit too early, perhaps they could reduce the base knockback a bit? I think Cloud is strong enough to warrant at least a few nerfs, although that is, ultimately, up to the balancing team. My point is: I think Cloud (and the other top 5 and perhaps even top 7) should be toned down a bit.
But Cloud isn't "too strong." He's very good relative to the rest of the cast, but that doesn't automatically make him nerf-worthy. There are characters above him far more deserving of nerfs than he is. He's no vanilla Rosalina or pre-patch Diddy, he's got clear weaknesses that can be exploited. The only thing about Cloud that I could understand getting nerfed is his up air or down air.
and really need buffs, but we've beaten that horse to death by now, so one other character that really needs buffs IMO is . Let me esplain:
While I will agree that Duck Hunt's recovery could be improved, saying that the duo's recovery is horrible sounds very exaggerated, since Duck Jump's horizontal distance is tolerable, especially when used for recovering high. It's just the vertical distance that needs to be worked on, just in case you're recovering low.I mean,
Many of duck hunt's moves simply do not work very well, especially when it comes to the killing department. Duck hunts kill options are all three smashes, U-air, D-air spike, sweetspotted B-air, and the Can offstage. The first 3 are multi-hits that often miss the final killing hit due to rage, movement, or just dumb luck. B-air's sweetspot is difficult to hit, and Duck Hunt is almost unable to play aggressive, which is the main way to get a sweetspotted B-air. And the can will kill as an edgeguard or as a combo from a throw, both of which are highly situational and require a lot of skill from the DHD player. As a result, DHD often can't kill until above 150% on any character. I would propose reworking those moves like they did with Ganon's Nair to make them connect better, and maybe a bit more knockback too.
Duck Hunt doesn't have very good survivability either. Not particularly heavy, plus an absolutely horrible recovery. Duck Hunt's up B is a strictly worse version of Olimar's up B, and Olimar is already better than DHD even ignoring recovery. You can't mix it up at all, and you must be a god at teching to make it back to the stage at all. I would suggest making it faster, cover more horizontal distance, and reducing landing lag, if not just allowing the move to be controlled.
And lastly, DHD has no true throw combos unless the can is in the perfect posorion already. I think that making D-throw into a combo throw would be fantastic for DHD, and making it a 50-50 at kill percents with U-air would solve DHD's killing problem and give it a good mixup game.
Duck hunt is deserving of buffs because many moves simply don't work, or are worse versions of another character's move, or are too hard/situational to pull off. These buffs could make DHD at least somewhat viable and worth learning
Why would you recover high with Duck Hunt's recovery though? It's slow and uninterruptable, leading to easy punishes from opponents.
I guess the right statement to say is that Duck Hunt's recovery is bad for being very predictable to counter. But it's not horrible in terms of travel distance, as it travels far enough horizontally to get Duck Hunt back onto the stage if left uncontested. The vertical travel distance, however, is quite slow, so footstool jumps can be problematic for Duck Hunt.
Why would you recover high with Duck Hunt's recovery though? It's slow and uninterruptable, leading to easy punishes from opponents.
I personally find Duck Hunt's recovery to be "horrible" not because of it's distance (it gets respectable height and distance imo). but because of how it lacks any hitbox while also being extremely slow. It's undoubtably the most braindead exploitable recovery in the game. You can easily just hit Duck Hunt away over and over again, either racking up a lot of damage on him, or even killing him.
are extremely flawed and desperately need buffs.,, and maybe and , but I think the character most deserving of them is .
Happy Birthday to youSorry I missed yesterday, I guess it just didn't pass my mind. But I agree with the majority that
Anyway, I'm actually satisfied with most of the top tiers at the moment. I could see some small nerfs for
At the moment, I think Rosalina is the best character in the game, even with relatively low representation. While she is technically polarizing, most matchups skew way in her favor, and there are only a couple that skew way in the opponent's favor (Meta Knight, Cloud). I can look past her frame data, as many of her moves have a lot of end lag to make up for the quick startup. What I can't look past is her insane gimp potential, caused by Luma's insane base knockback and Gravitational Pull.
I think that Luma should have less base knockback and more knockback growth on certain moves infamous for gimping (U-tilt, U-air, and Dair) so that they can still kill "normally" just as early but aren't as broken for gimping. I also think that Gravitational Gimp should have a lot less range, because at the moment certain matchups are way too unfair for the pure fact that the opponent can't ever use their projectiles, hurting especially Ness and Pac-Man. (Technically you could say the same about Villager's Pocket, but that doesn't stall him in the air, and he needs to use whatever's inside or wait thirty seconds to use it again, so it's not that bad.)
Now of course she's only this oppressive when Luma's at her side, and I agree she's not that good without Luma. I would actually suggest buffing ROSALINA'S attacks, mostly their frame data, at the same time as nerfing those two things so that she wouldn't fall down way too far. But she is the most deserving of nerfs IMO, even if she also deserves some buffs at the same time.
And also, as a final note, it's my birthday, so I especially want you guys to be civil with me today! :D
: make the banana throw a bit higher so he takes a bit longer to take it and less range on dtilt: reduce KBG on Limit Cross Slash and remove autocancels on short hop uair and full hop dair: fix some Luma hitboxes/knockback in rapid jab, dair and uair: remove invicibility on her upb and downb: remove invicibility on her downb: reduce KBG on true shoryuken: remove footstool infinite
She has already been nerfed quite extremely in 3DS patch 1.0.4, which many people seem to forget happened (Luma's timer increased, Luma not hitting characters during pummels anymore, hitbox sizes and KBG reduced for almost all moves, damage reduced in general). I am not going to say she isn't the best, but she is certainly not deserving of any more major nerfs, in my opinion.Anyway, I'm actually satisfied with most of the top tiers at the moment. I could see some small nerfs for
At the moment, I think Rosalina is the best character in the game, even with relatively low representation. While she is technically polarizing, most matchups skew way in her favor, and there are only a couple that skew way in the opponent's favor (Meta Knight, Cloud). I can look past her frame data, as many of her moves have a lot of end lag to make up for the quick startup. What I can't look past is her insane gimp potential, caused by Luma's insane base knockback and Gravitational Pull.
I think that Luma should have less base knockback and more knockback growth on certain moves infamous for gimping (U-tilt, U-air, and Dair) so that they can still kill "normally" just as early but aren't as broken for gimping. I also think that Gravitational Gimp should have a lot less range, because at the moment certain matchups are way too unfair for the pure fact that the opponent can't ever use their projectiles, hurting especially Ness and Pac-Man. (Technically you could say the same about Villager's Pocket, but that doesn't stall him in the air, and he needs to use whatever's inside or wait thirty seconds to use it again, so it's not that bad.)
Now of course she's only this oppressive when Luma's at her side, and I agree she's not that good without Luma. I would actually suggest buffing ROSALINA'S attacks, mostly their frame data, at the same time as nerfing those two things so that she wouldn't fall down way too far. But she is the most deserving of nerfs IMO, even if she also deserves some buffs at the same time.
And also, as a final note, it's my birthday, so I especially want you guys to be civil with me today! :D
I think Sheik getting further nerfs is extremely debatable now. While she still places highly in tournaments, she does noticeably worse, and actually has noticeable weaknesses now (struggles to set up a KO on a lot of occasions). Sheik's lower weight also makes sense in terms of balance, and reality too. The lower weight means she gets launched further, and seeing as she has undoubtedly the best recovery in the game, it makes sense for her to be launched far to use it. She also should be lighter than Zelda, because it makes sense; Sheik is a lot more sleek than Zelda, who has long hair, and heavier clothing, such as jewellery, boots and a long dress.A few characters that I would nerf would include the following three...
In Sheik's case, I'd nerf her air speed, but I also raised her weight back to 85 to compensate. In Melee and Brawl, Sheik never really excelled at air mobility, so it seemed odd for her to get her air speed increased to 1.1 for Smash 3DS / Wii U. I did experiment with 0.88 air speed for Sheik, and she can still pull off long-ranged recoveries, but her air game does take a hit, requiring you to utilize her fast ground speed to catch up with airborne targets.
For Meta Knight, I nerfed his air speed as well (down to 0.8), since he has multiple recovery moves that can overcome the slow air mobility. Of course, I also decreased Meta Knight's falling speed to 1.56 to compensate for the air speed nerf. Even with the nerfed air speed, Meta Knight can still use his off-stage edge-guarding options.
As for Bayonetta, even before she got the 1.1.6 nerf hammer, I wanted her weight to be nerfed. Yes, I know that I don't own Bayonetta, but after witnessing the complaints that a lot of people brought up about her, I felt that nerfing her weight would make her combo game more risky to use.
For most other fighters, I don't see much that warrants any nerfing. Rosalina already got hit hard by Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update, along with the 1.1.4 weight nerf; no need to be adding more insult to injury onto her.
: Possibly the best character in the game right now. Even at that, he doesn't have any real overly dominating factor about him. He has average KO power, due to him lacking sufficient finishers outside of a banana setup, and while his horizontal recovery is pretty solid, if he gets hit by a relatively powerful spike, or gets stage spiked, that can quite easily end his stock. I think, as the best character in the game, nerfs wouldn't be out of the question, but he doesn't straight up deserve any; he doesn't have anything overly powerful like the Hoo Hah anymore.: If anything, I feel this is the only top tier character that could do with a couple of changes. Something aught to be done about that Up Air's hitbox timing and AC frames. If they did something like what they did with Diddy's Up Air, it would be fine, such as shaving off one active frame at the start, which would reduce it's ability to hit grounded opponents. Shaving one off the end too would make the move a lot more forgiving, while still being an insanely active hitbox and one of the best juggle tools in the game. Making it AC a frame or two later would be good too. Down Air's active frames should be toned down slightly too. Shaving around two or three active frames off the end would still keep it's utility. In exchange, Cloud's Up Tilt and another move should get a look at a change. Up Tilt should have it's active frames increased by a frame to prevent it's blindspot on poor characters, which makes it's range look pitiful otherwise. Forward Air could also have a frame or two less start up. It's currently got ages of start up, and while it's powerful, it's start up hinders it's usage. These changes I think would make sense, as opposed to fiddling with attributes, as it fixes Cloud's main complaints and his own personal problems.: Once again, Sheik isn't overly dominant at tournaments any more. She has great combo ability, a fantastic projectile that can outright stop approaches or cancel out other projectiles, great mobility and a fantastic recovery. This is all counteracted by her poor ability to close out stocks, and her combination of being easy to combo (fast faller), and relatively easy to KO (light). Sheik is fine.: After ZSS's changes in 1.1.5, she's a lot more balanced now. Her Dthrow > Uair > Uair > UpB no longer KO's unless there is enough rage on the Boost Kick, and even then only reliably on stages with lower ceilings. She still commands some sort of respect in Neutral because of Paralyzer and the amount of damage you'll be eating each time you get hit by one, and she still has her great spacing tools, in Nair and Zair. She still has her great DSmash and Flip Kick, fantastic Bair and godlike recovery. However, it's a lot easier to punish ZSS now, with her grab being easier to punish due to it's lower active frames, her light weight and being a fast faller, and with her Dthrow being a lot less useful at KO percents, this balances her out. She is totally fine, more-so than Sheik.: Rosalina is my main, so I know 100% what I'm talking about here. In my opinion has always been within the top realm. She got hit pretty hard in 1.0.4, and has had a few minor slaps on the wrist since. If anything, the rise of Meta Knight, the introduction of Cloud, and the strengthening of other sword users such as Marth, Ike and Shulk, are all indirect nerfs to her too. Rosalina is unique in that she's arguably the only top tier character who has noticeable problems with certain characters, mainly ones with swords, as they can safely deal with Luma out of her reach. Rosalina is still an incredibly powerful character, one capable of making life hell for certain characters, but she is one of the easiest to exploit top tiers, which people don't do enough of. Like ZSS, Rosalina is totally fine.: Do I even need to explain this guy? If anyone seriously thinks Mario needs nerfs, you need your head checking out. Has great strengths, with weaknesses that can be. The epitome of a truly balanced strong character.: Her nerfs in 1.1.6 were pretty severe. It's uncertain where she'll end up on the tier list now, but her combo game is still well above average, she still has that amazing spacing and KO'ing tool in her Bair, her fantastic Nair for forcing approaches and using off stage for gimps, where she still has one of the best recoveries to compliment this. Witch Time was untouched, meaning if you get KO'd at 70%, you are dead, or any percent before, are eating a huge amount of percent. With her death combos gone due to the DABK change (which is now an almost useless move), she does have a tough neutral, and the Witch Twist SDI changes can make it a bit easier to escape her combos. Overall, while she can combo you and KO you still relatively early, she does struggle in neutral unless she's spamming held Nair. Bayonetta is the only character I feel within the top realm that outright deserves a few minor buffs, akin to how Diddy got some of his lesser used kit touched up to make them better. How about shaving a frame or two start up off of her Jab 1 and her Forward Tilt? Or how about giving DABK some actual use? It might be useless for combos, but how about making it her most damaging aerial (not a killing one, just damage). Or even making Witch Twist's SDI to around x1.7 as opposed to x2? That's still a hell of a lot more than x1 it used to be.
Considering that some of the low-tiered fighters got nerfed (poor Dedede and his unnecessary air speed nerf), anything is possible. Even Ganondorf's n-air got screwed over in that the first kick no longer offers any good knockback; you'd have to land the second kick to get anywhere.
In general, significant evidence is needed. Most of the time though, it is warranted, or compensated.
and . Even then that's a maybe, I believe Sheik is on both of their levels but 's current design is a little bonkers and could do with being made slightly less ridiculous, and 's D-tilt could do with being slightly less insane.
In their defense, from what i've heard, the Gordo size and down throw nerfs were warrented. Gordos would allegedly still hit opponents even when they reflected them and down throw to up air was apparently ridiculous.
What you want more? Fine, let me tell you my woes.
Dedede used to be a low-mid tier character at launch. Japan even rated him high-mid with their first tier list! And now almost everyone agrees that he is in the bottom 4. How could this happen? Well, every other low tier got buffed (except puff), and Dedede got NERFED! MULTIPLE TIMES! Now Fair does less damage, Dthrow doesn't combo as long, gordo gets reflected by 2% instead of 3%, gordo hitbox got smaller, our air speed is now slower than shield Shulk, and now people CAN ESCAPE OUR FINAL SMASH BY AIRDODGING? None of this was true at launch. Honestly, if we just got launch Dedede back, I would be happy. I thought that the one benefit of maining a low tier was that you are guaranteed to never get nerfed, and you might get buffed! NOPE! We've already discussed the many ways that we can make Dedede viable again, so the answers are out there. I just want to know what we did to deserve these nerfs, and why anyone thought it was a good idea. Every other balance change was justified somehow. Every single one. Then this. It just boggles my mind.
Well, that's my little rant. TLDR I want Dedede buffed.
Down Throw to Up Air WAS ridiculous, with the percent his Up Air can KO. The Gordo hotbox size nerf was also totally understandable. Unless you had some sort of disjoint, it was impossible to even reflect it consistently as you would get hit by it.In their defense, from what i've heard, the Gordo size and down throw nerfs were warrented. Gordos would allegedly still hit opponents even when they reflected them and down throw to up air was apparently ridiculous.
The rest is undoubtably unwarrented though. :V
Though, I think people thought Dedede was okay back then was because we didn't know how to fight him, kinda like how people thought Duck Hunt and Bowser were top tier back then. The patch nerfs wouldn't be nearly enough to push him down so far. It's clear that he was pretty bed, even back in 1.0.0.
Dedede's Dthrow to Uair was akin to Luigi Down Throw. Bowser and DK's throws, there are DI Mixups, smaller percent ranges, and are ruined by rage. Dedede's on the other hand cared not for these silly little things, and just worked regardless.
So, they removed something legitimately broken, and replaced it with a still fantastic combo throw... that's bad, how? Sure it's bad they removed the broken thing in terms of Luigi play, but he till has a good combo throw, and they buffed him up in plenty of other areas to compensate.
No, Mega Man does not need an AC Bair, at all. That would be a legitimately broken move. There are reasons some moves don't AC, and Mega Man's Bair is a prime example. It would literally stop all approach options, while at the same time, gifting Mega Man with another approach option. Mega Man's approaches involve projectiles. Giving him a movement approach option as well as these would make him tough to deal with.