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The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

L1N3R1D3R

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We could rate Bayo this round just for completeness' sake, but I don't have a preference.

:4sonic:, the Blue Blur who took the competitive scene by storm. Even after his killing nerfs, he's still an amazing character similar to Sheik in that his neutral game and damage racking is great, but he only has a couple good killing options. Nevertheless, he's great without being OVERpowered, so I don't think he needs any changes.

Voting :4villagerf:.
 

L9999

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Sanic is alright. He has 3 kil throws, he is super fast, he can camp, and he can totally edgeguard and come back for free. It's incredible how crazy this character used to be.
 

Rhinomaster22

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Boy I sure missed a lot. Let's just move onto:4sonic: Sonic and leave the whole :4marth::4lucina::4feroy: Marth situation for later. Mr. I'm the fastest in the game but will time you out on Duck Hunt :4sonic:
 

MarioMeteor

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We'll both Lucina :4lucina:and Roy :4feroy:are lacking compared to Marth :4marth:. Roy may be objectively better than Lucina but that's not much. His only real advantage is that he's faster than Marth and is sweet spot is easier to land. But for everything else Marth is better at. Marth has a stronger sweet spot, range to actually space, and sour spot can lead into more things which both clones lack. But that's just me :happysheep:
I'm gonna get hate and disagreements, but since people are on the topic of Marth/Roy/Lucina, I think the order goes like this:

:4lucina: :4feroy: :4marth:

Let me explain, Lucina basically can cover Marth and Roys weaknesses, being their sour spots. She doesn't need strict spacing to rely on getting kills early. She can just do Jab 1 to f-smash lol. As for Roy, he's a good bit faster than the two, which makes Marths spacing a tad bit harder because Roy can just rush in. He also has more rely able combos then Marth and Lucina, with Marths being the least reliable because of his sour spots not doing much and tippers doing to much damage or sending to far.

Also disagree with me all you want, I'll understand lol. It's only logical.
Hell yeah. Royboyz unite!

So Sonic, I don't like him. I don't like fighting him, I don't like watching him. That said though, he's been beaten down with the Nerf Hammer pretty thoroughly, to the point where there's not much more that can be done to him.

I'll vote for Bayonetta redone.
 

Airpoizon

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:4sonic: is no doubt top 10. Has great combo game, a kill throw, a dairy spike that sends you downward that you can actually recover from lol, good recovery, etc, etc.

Ken and Seagull Joe both play :4sonic: very well and place great with him, so he has the results.

And yeah Sanic.
 

Zerp

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Sorry for the delay, it's not an excuse for being late but I actually had it ready on time, but my PC decided to act up and lag like crazy, so I kind of restarted it and did some fix-ups, wonderful timing I know. Sorry, I should have done some check-ups on it before hand and not let it mess the schedule up, my bad.

Sonic's a character that I used to think needed nerfs, but now, I'm really not so sure if I should bop him down a notch just for being powerful, I'm starting to feel like he might be fine and that I'm overly critical of Top Tiers in general.

Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_tcjsFkJ0DxqwvRvXKpK-xkksvWBVlKFpvdMOA9xGDk/viewanalytics
And here's Villager's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/r0uBdVWiGbORDcBP2
You can vote for these normal civilians who definitely don't stand out in a crowd like a sore thumb.
:4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi:
Also, there was basically no demand for it, so I think we'll just do Bayonetta next round instead of rerating her.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Sorry for the delay, it's not an excuse for being late but I actually had it ready on time, but my PC decided to act up and lag like crazy, so I kind of restarted it and did some fix-ups, wonderful timing I know. Sorry, I should have done some check-ups on it before hand and not let it mess the schedule up, my bad.
That's OK. These things happen. (My computer decided to stop working and had to be reformatted. I just got it back yesterday.)

So...Villager....Villager...Villager...Yeah I got nothing. I honestly don't think the Villager really needs anything to be good.

Voting for the most inconspicuous character, :4yoshi:.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4villager: has tons of strengths, including a flexible zoning game, great recovery, good kill power, and a projectile nullifier. He hardly has any weaknesses, but his weak combo game can be exploited, so I don't think he needs changing.

Voting :4yoshi:.
 

Zerp

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I agree with the general consensus that Villager doesn't need any changes, I think he's fine right now.
inb4 a patch comes out tomorrow that buffs him tenfold and makes me eat my words on him being fine
Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1oijDXNXjTBCF0U8SuqOvD14XGLlAPViFgJA4TV3J1v4/viewanalytics
And, here's Yoshi's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/lvEXPV8AOG9GKl1E2

You can vote for :4wiifit:or :4wario:, two extremely similar people, honestly, sometimes I mistake Wario for Wii Fit, it's hard to tell them apart.
 

Rhinomaster22

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:4yoshi: Yoshi is a kind of a strange case. Lots of people agree that he is a solid character with fast frame data, great air mobility, and a fantastic ground and air game. But the strange issue is that his results are some what lacking to highlight Yoshi's strengths. He isn't overpowered or too strong from public opinion but he's always been labeled as a mid high tier character. :4falcon: Captain Falcon and :4corrinf: Corrin have shown that they can compete but Yoshi really hasn't.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Maybe if :4yoshi:'s grab game were better in general, then people would pick him up. His grab has pitiful startup and endlag and mediocre range, and his most useful throw is a merely setup throw in D throw. Decreasing overall lag of grab and endlag of D throw would fix both these issues. Then again, that might be too big of a buff, but they might as well try it and see if it would be OP. Otherwise, he's a very solid character with oddly low representation.

Voting :4wario:.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Maybe if :4yoshi:'s grab game were better in general, then people would pick him up. His grab has pitiful startup and endlag and mediocre range, and his most useful throw is a merely setup throw in D throw. Decreasing overall lag of grab and endlag of D throw would fix both these issues. Then again, that might be too big of a buff, but they might as well try it and see if it would be OP. Otherwise, he's a very solid character with oddly low representation.

Voting :4wario:.
But what if they don't patch it back out of the game. :p

I vote for the more physically fit of the two: :4wario2:. (What? He creates earthquakes by punching the ground. I don't see the Wii Fit Trainer doing that.)
 

MarioMeteor

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If they do end up buffing Yoshi I hope to God they nerf his frame data. He's like Sheik when it comes to how many hitboxes the dinosaur can throw out.

I vote for Ice Climbers. Oh wait...
 

Zerp

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Rhinomaster22

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:4wario2: Wario is a good character overall. Great mobility, good air game, and good camping game. But I find one issue with him, Wario has trouble killing. I'm no Wario expert and a lot of us have very little experience with this fatty but a lot of Wario's finishers are difficult to land. I've seen many Warios stalling just to get Waft and tacking on damage when available. A good buff would be to reduce the start up on his KO moves such as up smash or forward smash
 

L1N3R1D3R

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To add onto his trouble killing besides Waft,:4wario: also has an inconsistent combo game, only getting some strings of moves that are way too laggy for how useful they are, like his downgraded Pac-Man Fair. He just needs less lag in general on certain moves to fix both of those problems.

Voting :4wiifitm:. :p
 
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Zerp

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I think Wario's goodish, he needs buffs but I'd be careful about how much I give him.
Here's Wario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WT8ImQo3g0oH16kTlxVYBv17lwXhy_Myz4cabv59cSU/viewanalytics
Here's Wii Fit Trainer's poll http://goo.gl/forms/7ANh12tgu2xcT5oz1

Also, as you've probably noticed by now, we're out of characters to rate, and I don't want to start round 3 right now, so for right now please vote on whether or not you think the Bayonetta nerfs were justified, right here: http://goo.gl/forms/WuDZfODkcQm82poh2

Tomorrow I'll list a schedule of what we're going to do until round 3, so until then just relax I guess. Also, feel free to list any suggestions if you got some ideas for a daily activity, I'll make sure to at least consider them.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Hoo boy, a lot to talk about...

:4wiifit: is in a tough situation, as she theoretically has almost every tool necessary to be a huge threat on paper. However, many of the aspects were not implemented well, such as her trouble with killing because of laggy, inconsistent smashes and nothing else too powerful. Her grab game is also very lackluster, with grab being awkward to land and every throw being only somewhat useful. She desperately needs those things to be changed if she wants to be a serious tournament threat.

--------

On one hand, :4bayonetta: definitely deserved to be nerfed, as she was quickly proving to be solely dominant. On the other hand, her nerfs were a little excessive IMO, as now Witch Twist and DABK are now not only worse, but close to useless against a competent opponent. However, she still has amazing frame data, great edgeguarding, great recovery, and Witch Time, so I would hesitate to buff those two things in case she might become dominant again.

--------

With the down time, could we possibly rate some characters' potential in doubles?
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Sooooo...Give her up smash some hitboxes at the bottom so she won't wiff this as easily (like pretty much every character that has an up smash like this.), nake her foot deal damage as well as her arm when she uses her forward smash so she can hit the little people (unless she already does this), aaaaaaaand I guess what L1N3R1D3R said. Make her grabs better.
 

Zerp

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With the down time, could we possibly rate some characters' potential in doubles?
Sure, that's actually a pretty good idea. I added it to our schedule thingy, we'll do it tomorrow.

Anyway, I think Wii Fit Trainer could use some hitbox readjustments, they're a bit on the trashy side right now.
Here's her results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/16UJyqgQPYYT9hGys8DuqAN8o84Fhq3RLg3pkl9aMABg/viewanalytics

Bayonetta's nerfs were pretty justifed imo, she was ridiculous before the nerf, and she's still solid, my only complaint is that the pre-patch Sheik before her didn't get hit anywhere near as hard by their respective patch, but whatever.
Here's the results for the Bayonetta nerfs https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1W-tNfvTclgpCTKifgBYD09-uY0JyEa9pBOkMl_-poFs/viewanalytics
So, now that that's out of the way, we're done with Round 2 now! :bluejump:

Before we start Round 3, I'd like to have a week of in-between time, here's our (loose) schedule for the week
  • Today: Discuss anything you want related to balance.
  • 5/27: Discussing Doubles and how characters fare in it.
  • 5/28: Discussing what character you feel most satisfied with.
  • 5/29: Discussing what characters you feel are most deserving of a Buff.
  • 5/30: Discussing what characters you feel are most deserving of a Nerf.
  • 5/31: Discussing what characters you want to get a Buff the most.
  • 6/1: Discussing what characters you want to get a Nerf the most.

We're not really doing anything today since we just ended, so there's not going to be a focus today, at all. Just
talk about whatever the heck you want to talk about, just try to make sure it's related to the game's balance. Also, since this basically a break, the schedule's only meant to be loosely followed, so while I'd love for you to discuss the daily focus when we get to a day that actually has one, your still welcome to to talk about whatever you want. :p


Also, I want to thank all of you fellows for sticking with this thread for so long, it sounds silly, but I really do appreciate it. Thank you all. :)
 
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Tizio Random

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Now that Bayonetta is nerfed I think the top tier is balanced. Now I hope the balance team will focus the last patches on buffing the characters in lower tiers that deserve more.
:4mewtwo::4marth::4samus: and :4myfriends: just to say a few names were really bad at the start, now they are functional characters, some are better than others but they are good.
On the other hand there are others who really stiil need that helping hand like :4jigglypuff::4dedede::4zelda: and :4feroy:. It would be great to see all the cast being grouped in tiers so tight that everyone is usable (like max C tier) like 64.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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To say something overall that won't be specifically touched on later this week, I'll just say the overall changes I want. If we're looking at the tier list in my signature, I would like everyone to be near High tier, so Top tier should be slightly nerfed, Mid tier should be slightly buffed, Low tier should be moderately buffed, and Bottom tier (and Jigglypuff) should be greatly buffed. That's all I have for today!

EDIT: This is my personal list I'm talking about, since I still don't know what makes the forum put the signature on your posts:
http://i.imgur.com/agfSpZL.png
 
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Zerp

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EDIT: This is my personal list I'm talking about, since I still don't know what makes the forum put the signature on your posts:
http://i.imgur.com/agfSpZL.png
I think your signature comes out on your first post for the page and not for any other posts on the page,that's how it seems to work for me.

Anyway, I agree with the general idea that the Bottom to Low Tier Smashers should get some buffs, and especially so regarding Jigglypuff and Dedede, I'd also like some Top Tier nerfs, but I don't care about them as much as I do the Low Tiers.

Also, today we're discussed doubles and how characters's viability changes or doesn't change, you don't have to talk about doubles if you really don't want to but I'd appreciate it. ( I think I just might cave in today and not post last, I want to talk about doubles so badly lol)
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I can't really say much about doubles, but I have been trying out some things with my attribute edits.

One edit was buffing Jigglypuff's air speed to 1.35, which gives it the best air mobility of any fighter, along with a weight increase to 70. Even though it's still the lightest fighter, Jigglypuff can still survive a long time with the increased air speed; you'd have to pack a powerful aerial attack to send it packing.

I also tried some things that a lot of people apparently despise seeing.
  1. I buffed Luigi's air speed to 0.92, so that his recovery would be better, but it seems that people have complaints about his air game, and say that he needs to have the worst air mobility of any fighter. And the odd part of the story is that Luigi can't really do follow-ups with his aerials against higher damaged opponents.
  2. I buffed Rosalina's air speed to 1.25, and increased her weight to 85. Although 85 is still a rather light weight value, people have said that a weight value that high imbalances Rosalina's archetype. Also, the air speed buff would help Rosalina with her air mobility and recovery, but this apparently increases Rosalina's longevity further, as she becomes more difficult to KO early, even for the high-tiered fighters. And of course, the Luma's presence adds to the complaints, even though it can easily be contained if you play smart.
  3. I buffed Mewtwo's weight to 85, which is its Melee weight value. However, people find that this buff is too much, especially after all the buffs that it received throughout the past few updates. I guess my main reason for this buff has to do with the fact that I find it quite dumb for Mewtwo to be lighter than even a Pikachu, and being lighter than Mr. Game & Watch is an even bigger insult to it. It sounds selfish perhaps, but even with 85 weight, Mewtwo could still get KO'd early if it gets hit by a highly damaging attack. On one final note, I also increased Mewtwo's falling speed to 1.68, and its fast-falling speed to 2.688, but I did leave its gravity alone.
There are other changes that I've made too, but the ones that I've mentioned above have received the most criticism.
 

Muskrat Catcher

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Ah doubles! They are so much fun even though I absolutely suck in them. I have somewhat limited experience with doubles, but I have played enough to make some judgements about my main:
:4dedede: The King is so much freaking fun to play in doubles. The main things to talk about here that differentiate doubles and singles for Dedede are his size, his offstage abilities, his speed, gordos, and inhale.

Size: Dedede is extremely prone to getting hit a LOT in doubles because he is so big. Sometimes its very difficult to even avoid your teammate's attacks due to Dedede's size and speed, especially characters like Ike with big hitboxes. This means you will take a lot of damage quickly if you are in a bad position and your teammate cannot help.

Offstage: Dedede is great offstage, which is extremely important in doubles. Dedede is almost impossible to gimp, and when recovering low gets almost free passage back to the stage, which is great versus many popular doubles teams. Also, Dedede shines when he can be constantly edgeguarding people. He can rack up a lot of damage from an edgeguard or get a kill, even when facing two people at once on the ledge, he is capable.

Speed: Dedede has a very poor ability to help out a teammate in trouble. He just can't get to the other side of the stage in time. Chucking a gordo across the stage can sometimes save your teammate, or sometimes make matters even worse. Also with how large and reckless Dedede can be with his hammer, it becomes hard to hit an enemy when they are close to your teammate without hitting everyone, so Dedede is very bad at bailing a teammate out.

Gordo: Gordo becomes especially interesting in doubles, as your teammate can hit it towards enemies if it is out, and it can hit multiple enemies with a single gordo if they are close. Making a stage hazard like gordo in doubles can be extremely valuable when your teammate can work around it, as you can work together to completely take control of the entire stage between you two and the gordo, which creates some very advantageous and rewarding situations.

Inhale: Inhale becomes really cool as you can spit an opponent into another opponent, or even use your teammate as a projectile and help them approach at the cost of 10%. The star created by spitting someone out kills reasonably well too, and can be used to style on your opponent with extra pizzazz!

Good partners: anyone that can take stage control and throw people offstage, preferably fast, precise, and able to manipulate gordo well. Edgeguarding, KO power, and damage racking are not required.

I may post about Charizard later. Depends on if I have time.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Doubles seems to favor the characters with big strengths and weaknesses more than those with moderate ones, as those characters can team with others who strongly cover their weaknesses, and the team becomes a huge threat in every area. For those reasons, the "well-balanced" characters become worse, and the "polarizing" characters become better. Specifically:

Characters that worsen: :4mewtwo::4greninja::4pit::4darkpit::4lucina::4wiifit::4falco::4palutena::4feroy:
Characters that improve: :rosalina::4cloud::4ryu::4metaknight::4bayonetta::4ness::4corrin::4rob::4dk::4falcon::4gaw::4kirby::4bowser::4littlemac::4dedede::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff:
 
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MarioMeteor

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Jigglypuff is most definitely a HELL of a lot better in doubles than in singles, it's where she shines, I'd say. Cloud as well, to the point where I'd say he becomes top tier, if such a thing existed in doubles.
Doubles seems to favor the characters with big strengths and weaknesses more than those with moderate ones, as those characters can team with others who strongly cover their weaknesses, and the team becomes a huge threat in every area. For those reasons, the "well-balanced" characters become worse, and the "polarizing" characters become better. Specifically:

Characters that worsen: :4pit::4darkpit::4mewtwo::4lucario::4lucina::4wiifit::4falco::4palutena::4feroy:
Characters that improve: :rosalina::4cloud::4ryu::4metaknight::4bayonetta::4ness::4corrin::4rob::4dk::4falcon::4gaw::4kirby::4bowser::4littlemac::4dedede::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff:
I don't know if you could say Lucario gets worse. There are a whole lot of different factors that determine his effectiveness because of Aura.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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I don't know if you could say Lucario gets worse. There are a whole lot of different factors that determine his effectiveness because of Aura.
I knew someone would point that out. The problem Lucario has is he isn't that heavy, and he can die super early much more easily than in singles because of team combos and pressure. Sure, he can get to Aura much quicker, but he probably won't be able to use it much, which is what I was thinking about.
 
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Rhinomaster22

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Characters that do wonders in doubles
:4cloud2: It's Cloud, nuff said.
:4mario: Double Mario double cape double up smash double jank
:4sonic: Down throw into any team move. Great for breaking pressure due to his speed.
Just to name a few, there's a lot more I could say.
 

MarioMeteor

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I knew someone would point that out. The problem Lucario has is he isn't that heavy, and he can die super early much more easily than in singles because of team combos and pressure. Sure, he can get to Aura much quicker, but he probably won't be able to use it much, which is what I was thinking about.
You forget that in team battles Aura gets stronger or weaker the bigger your lead or deficit is. Lucario can get pretty obscene when his team's losing and he's at High or Max Aura.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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You forget that in team battles Aura gets stronger or weaker the bigger your lead or deficit is. Lucario can get pretty obscene when his team's losing and he's at High or Max Aura.
Ooh, good point. I'll at least remove him from worsened characters, then.
 

L9999

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A buff that came to my mind recently to make :4ness:::rosalina: less miserable. Giving Ness better Luma killing options that aren't laggy garbage like PKFire and Foward Smash, so he has easier time against Luma and doesn't get disadvantaged really easily. The MU would still be bad, as Gravitational Gimp is always present, and Luma is the reason why it is super easy. I know this dead horse has been beaten up like 100 times already, but just my humble opinion.

Characters that do wonders in doubles
:4mario: Double Mario double cape double up smash double jank
Reminds me of a time I played against double Mario. They were beating me and my teammate up and then we janked them back. :4ness::4littlemac: ftw. Also, :4pikachu::4bowser: is a neat combination. Rat bothers and Bowser catches unsuspecting opponents. Both can gimp opponents easily.
 
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LancerStaff

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Pits are pretty good in doubles IMO. Lots of low knockback moves that set up for the teammate, and large and effective finishers when the teammate sets up for them. Really good weight, recovery, and disadvantage state keeps them alive surprisingly long, so they make good stock tanks. Can't go wrong with either of them since you either get Electroshock or arrow trickery like knocking your teammate out of helplessness.
 

Zerp

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I personally love doubles, I just wish I had more opportunities to play it, it adds a lot of variety imo and it appeases my Jigglypuff bias.
:4jigglypuff: is just much better off in Doubles, she covers recoveries fairly well, can easily save dying teammates, and Rest's risk is severely cut down when you can just be woken up by your teammate. Also, while she already had plenty of Rest set-ups, it's much more practical to set up Rest in Doubles than in Singles, she gets them left and right in Doubles while in Singles it's usually just once or twice per game.

Her increased viability totally isn't half the reason I love doubles.

Anyways for today, just talk about whatever character your most satisfied with this game, and whatever else you want to talk about. :p
 
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MarioMeteor

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
8,340
Location
New Orleans
NNID
BGenius23
3DS FC
0662-2900-1492
I am IN love with how Mario turned out in this game. He's one of the best characters in Smash 4 (he could've been top tier if it weren't for a few meaningless nerfs) and one of the most balanced.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for my other returning main from Brawl, Jigglypuff. She's only slightly better than she was previously, but the fact that everyone else got better makes her even worse.
 
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