The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[wedl!!]

Let's not use Bowser's balance changes as an impetus for anything because Nintendo has no idea what to do with that character at a competitive level.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Let's not use Bowser's balance changes as an impetus for anything because Nintendo has no idea what to do with that character at a competitive level.

Bowser hits hard, can make quick KOs, and is tough to send flying. It takes far less effort to make KOs with Bowser than it does to make KOs with Sheik, but most of Bowser's attacks are too strong to pull off follow-ups.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I find Peach to be pretty well balanced, I don't think she needs nerfs or buffs or any variety really.

Here's her results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1nFUilqb7-sTo_tWuvleayTbnMQHVu7PwEQXM-JXm-E8/viewanalytics
And here's Mii Gunner's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/JQV9pcNC0G

Also, once again, we're treating Mii Gunner as Guest XXXX on the poll, but your welcome to discuss any other variant if you want to.

You can vote for these people who are all in agreement that Popplio is obviously the best starter.

Edit: Oh, and before I forget, I vote for Yoshi, bane of Jigglypuff and destroyer of pantries.

I always thought of Marth as the bane of Jigglypuff.

 

[Zerp]

I always thought of Marth as the bane of Jigglypuff.

And you'd be right, he's pretty good against her as well.
Also, completely unrelated to that, it's been exactly 2 weeks now since I stopped counting your votes, so, I'm glad to say that I'm going to start counting your votes again.

Anyways, here's Donkey Kong's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1v2vOrhGypGaDn34elL81EYigos7SejByk8DPTm-6fyk/viewanalytics
And here's Charizard's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/uAzqdMtdCV

You can vote for any of these lovely individuals.

 

[MarioMeteor]

And you'd be right, he's pretty good against her as well.
Also, completely unrelated to that, it's been exactly 2 weeks now since I stopped counting your votes, so, I'm glad to say that I'm going to start counting your votes again.

Anyways, here's Donkey Kong's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1v2vOrhGypGaDn34elL81EYigos7SejByk8DPTm-6fyk/viewanalytics
And here's Charizard's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/uAzqdMtdCV

You can vote for any of these lovely individuals.

To be honest, it's been damn near two weeks since I remembered this thread existed. Seems I came at the right time.

I don't have anything to say about Charizard, so I'll just go ahead and vote for Fox, since his game just came out.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the dragon Pokemon that ironically doesn't know whether to be a ground or an air fighter. He's just so mixed up in many ways, and he still needs some desperate fixing:

+Increase air speed and jump height. He's a dragon. 'Nuff said.
+Reduce lag of Flamethrower to make zoning easier.
+Give one of his aerials an autocancel to help his approach game.
+Make Flare Blitz not garbage.
+Decrease lag of up air so it can combo from D throw, or landing into up tilt or up B.


Voting Fantastic Mr. .

 

[Furret24]

, the dragon Pokemon that ironically doesn't know whether to be a ground or an air fighter. He's just so mixed up in many ways, and he still needs some desperate fixing:

+Increase air speed and jump height. He's a dragon. 'Nuff said.
+Reduce lag of Flamethrower to make zoning easier.
+Give one of his aerials an autocancel to help his approach game.
+Make Flare Blitz not garbage.
+Decrease lag of up air so it can combo from D throw, or landing into up tilt or up B.


Voting Fantastic Mr. .

Do you have an paticular air speed increase in mind? Considering how powerful his aerials are, buffing it too much might break him.

Btw, he has an autocancel aerial (nair autocancels in a shorthop).

I vote

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

The air speed wouldn't be too much, but the jump height would be (or adding another jump could work). As for autocancel, I was thinking something with good range like Fair.

 

[L9999]

I was glad to see that Charizard got un-nerfed a bit in the last couple patches, it was incredible. But it think there are some other things left to buff:

His jumps. The air speed is still too bad for having crappy jumps and meh horizontal height in Up B. Having better jumps would help recovery and disadvantage state (thought it would still be terrible lol).
Flare Blitz- Let Charizard tech on collision (the frames were he collides) to a wall. (Inspired by Ness tech, thank you very much).
Un-nerf other stuff from Brawl.

I vote "anything goes"

 

[Jmacz]

Finally, this is what I've been waiting for. My time to shine, and as a warning this is probably going to be a pretty long post. I have a lot of idea's for changes and I'm going to give my reasoning for each. I'm going to be mainly focusing on four things.

• Making it easier for Charizard to land on stage.
• Making it easier for Charizard to escape combos/strings.
• Making Charizard more of a threat in the air.
• Improving Charizard's crappy neutral game.

The first change is also what I believe to be Charizard's biggest need. And that is yet another buff to his air speed, as well as his falling speed. The air speed buff last patch helped, but not nearly enough. If the worry is that Charizard will gain a "Hoo-Hah" with to big of an increase a simple change to either the knock back, angle, or end lag of D-Throw would fix this. Charizard does not need, nor should he have a "Hoo-Hah" imo. His D-Throw should remain a DI read, where if they DI away you get a F-Air, and if they DI up you get an U-Air. Anyways, these are my suggested changes.

• Air Speed: .92-->.98
• Fall Speed: 1.4-->1.48
• Fast Fall Speed: 2.24-->2.368
• Third jump changed to match 1st and 2nd jump.

Another thing that would help Charizard a lot with landing (and even getting out of some combos) would to make Flamethrower and Rock Smash (specifically it's super armor) come out just a bit faster. Both are pretty slow and pretty easy to react to now, especially Flamethrower. Neither of them need a major overhaul or anything, just minor tweaks. My suggested changes are.

• Flamethrower Hitbox Active: 20, 27, 34, 41, etc --> 16, 23, 30, 37, etc
• Rock Smash Super Armor: 5-23-->3-23

The next set of changes are to help Charizard's crappy neutral. The suggested Flamethrower change would already help a bit here, but Zard needs more. Some of his grounded moves could be a bit faster, specifically D-Tilt because it seems to get beat out by to many moves. This is also where helping Charizard in the air comes into play, as his fastest aerial as of now comes out at frame 8. Zard is actually one of only a few characters who don't have a frame 6 or faster aerial. Most of the other characters have a consistent disjoint to balance this like Ike, D3, Mii Gunner, Robin and Shulk (Lucas and Olimar also fall under this category, not sure if their aerials are considered disjointed). Others like Bowser and Corrin have an aerial that activates under frame 6 when landing. Here are my suggested changes.

• Jab 1 Hitbox Active: 4-5-->3-4
• Jab 2 Hitbox Active: 5-6-->4-5
• Jab 3 Hitbox Active: 6-7-->5-6
• D-Tilt (Windbox) Hitbox Active: 7-8-->5-6
• D-Tilt Hitbox Active: 9-10-->7-8
• N-Air Hitbox Active: 9-25-->7-23
• F-Air Hitbox Active: 8-9/10-11-->6-7/8-11
• U-Air Hitbox Active: 12-15 (Head Intangible 11-15)-->10-13 (Head Intangible 9-13)
• Dash Grab Hitbox Active: 9-10
• Dash Grab FAF: 42-->38

The last change I'm suggesting isn't overly needed as Charizard's U-Tilt is already a pretty good move. But I just feel like the way it's designed makes it way to similar to U-Smash but not nearly as useful. As of now it's only useful as an anti-air if they are directly above you, and even then there are situations where U-Smash (which hits aerial opponents frame 6) is the better option. My suggestion is to just revamp the move, to make it less redundant to U-Smash. Instead of being a slow, one dimensional, kill move. I suggest it becomes a faster, more useful, combo starter.

U-Tilt Hitbox Active: 9-13-->7-11
U-Tilt FAF: 34-->28
U-Tilt Damage: 8-->6
U-Tilt BKB/KBG: 40-35
U-Tilt KBG: 130-->80
Hitboxes added closer to the ground, in front and behind Charizard.

I understand that this is a lot to change at once, but Charizard still needs that much help if the goal is to make him a consistent threat in tournament play without the use of a secondary. It's not that Charizard is terrible or anything, but he just has to work to harder to get anything. His neutral game is just complete crap, and he relies on mistakes and lack of MU knowledge to get in. And despite having a plethora of kill moves, he still relies on getting a hard read or punishing a really bad mistake to get a kill. Even if only half of what I suggested were to get changed, it would still make a massive improvement. Especially if his air speed, and aerials are buffed again.

Okay, I'm done now. And I'll vote for Pikachu .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Increasing a fighter's falling speed isn't exactly a good thing, as while this may help survive vertical KOs longer, it can also make the fighter more vulnerable to combos, and hinder its recovery as well.

Considering that Charizard's recovery has problems in regards to air mobility, it really can't afford to have its falling speed increased, as that would end up hurting its recovery.

 

[Zerp]

I was going to write out a list of buffs I wanted for Charizard, but I got carried away doing something else (Whoops), so i'll just say I'd appreciate it a lot if Charizard got a wee bit more buffs and then stop getting them after his final fix-up.

Here's Charizard's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1i2mkfwhY3xEyj5fFjpfkSkUop2K1svjxUTJgQEde2qE/viewanalytics
Here's Pikachu's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/kWUbJ9EIeA
You can vote for any of these people who probably don't scream "PIKACHU!" every two seconds per match.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, a character everyone momentarily thought was top tier until they noticed its poor range on most moves and almost no representation. However, he still has all the tools to do extremely well even if only ESAM is doing it right now, so I don't think he needs to be changed.

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

, a character everyone momentarily thought was top tier until they noticed its poor range on most moves and almost no representation. However, he still has all the tools to do extremely well even if only ESAM is doing it right now, so I don't think he needs to be changed.

Voting .

Oh yeah, we were calling him like, the third best in the game, weren't we? Wow, past us were dumb.

I hate fighting this little rat, but he's pretty balanced, all things considered. I don't think he needs to be changed.

Voting Fox, again.

 

[L9999]

The Rat is balanced, no need to change something. Since the trend is voting Fox, I vote Fox.

 

[Wintermelon43]

imo Pika is 15th and people are overexaggerating his overratingness to the point that's he's underrated. That said, he should stay as is.

 

[Rhinomaster22]

Pikachu definitely doesn't need to be changed. He's a great character and top 10-15 IMO but he's not overpowering or really strong to warrant a nerf. Literally zero complaints or overpowering moves like Sonic's former back throw. Voting

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh yea, I vote for

 

[Jmacz]

The only thing that should be changed for Pikachu imo is his N-Air, it should be a kill move like it was in Brawl. Not overly powerful or anything, but make it kill at like 110-120% from mid stage. Pikachu still has a lot of problems netting a kill, his only true confirm is F-Air to U-Smash and I'm pretty sure that's not consistent. We thought he had U-Throw to Thunder but it turns out you can air dodge.

And I guess I'll vote for Fox.

 

[L9999]

The only thing that should be changed for Pikachu imo is his N-Air, it should be a kill move like it was in Brawl. Not overly powerful or anything, but make it kill at like 110-120% from mid stage. Pikachu still has a lot of problems netting a kill, his only true confirm is F-Air to U-Smash and I'm pretty sure that's not consistent.
And I guess I'll vote for Fox.

Some editing that prevents summons of pointless walls of text.

 

[Zerp]

Pikachu's one of those characters, where, as of right now, their fine, but I can see Pikachu with even just a slight push in the meta becoming a massive threat, his kit's absolutely amazing imo, but unfortunately, there's nobody out there actually proving that it is great or even just a good kit. I feel like that's going to change at some point, but as long as there's nothing showing off that he's secretly a borderline broken character, then I really have no grounds to nerf him on.

Anyway, here's Pikachu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1US2iSb3saWzYUKX4AruoM7yZOOZsBvoRH2_1JuYSjYA/viewanalytics
And here's Fox's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/tdCe7olSOZ

You can vote for FIYAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

 

[MarioMeteor]

First and foremost, fix his voice. He sounds like Mandark from Dexter's Lab.
Second, I would like Fox to get reworked so that his moves don't combo as brainlessly as they do, but give him some extra KO power in return. In other words, make him more like Brawl Fox, who had a good voice that didn't remind me of an anthropomorphic cat.

Voting for the Super Fighting Robot.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Top tier, good, keep him as is.

I vote for

 

[Tizio Random]

I think Fox is one of the most balanced characters in the cast. A good top tier with amazing strenght and clear weaknesses. I wouldn't mind if every character in the game was brought at his level. Hopefully not at his level of voice acting...

Voting for DA SUPPA FIGHTING ROBAT because I was listening to Megaman II & III music

 

[RedMarf78]

I think fox's backthrow should get less base knockback and more knockback growth so that he has a DI mixup between downthrow and back throw at really low percents but also has a thow that can kill at high percents (like really high percents, the 150-170 range).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'd rather take Fox's Brawl voice clips over his Smash 3DS / Wii U voice clips.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

can seem oppressive when he has the advantage, but his disadvantage isn't that good. He has great strengths but also notable weaknesses, and so I think he's a high to top tier character that shouldn't be changed.

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'd rather take Fox's Brawl voice clips over his Smash 3DS / Wii U voice clips.

Trust me, we all would.

 

[Rhinomaster22]

Patch 1.1.6 balance changes
+ His voice is now his brawl voice actor
- It's not his melee voice actor

 

[DKGrayson]

I can't believe so many people are bothered about his voice.

Fox's moves don't really combo mindlessly, he doesn't really have any true combos or kill confirms that can't be avoided by DI/Airdodge/techable.

His uptilt strings are annoying for a generous number of the cast, and his uairs are awesome, but they are by no means free (and "brainless")

His throws don't have true follow ups either.

I'm not trying to say that Fox doesn't deserve his place in the top tier; he most definitely does. I'm just saying that to say that all of his moves combo into one another, and to refer to it as "brainless", is pretty insulting (and mis-informed).

 

[Zerp]

I think Fox's pretty well balanced, he doesn't need buffs or nerfs. Also, regardless of how many Smash games there are in the future, I think he, along with Pikachu, Meta Knight and Diddy Kong, will never ever become "bad" characters, they'll only ever be at risk of being too good, their core designs are just too good to mess up and somehow make them weak imo, so Fox is fine, and should be fine for the next few games, as long as they don't give him anything stupid.

Here's Fox's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1kOCb_QDFbrw9cIawuYHnp3fk8hP2y0mzHYhdNW01kYw/viewanalytics
Here's Megaman's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Ba8uIbfzey

You can vote for these smashers FIGHTING TO SAVE THE WORLD!!!111!!!

 

[DKGrayson]

I vote Falcon

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mega Man is one of those characters that started off good but gradually sank into the murky depths of the Abyss as time went on. He needs a few buffs to put him up with the rest of the cast, but I dropped him a long time ago so I'm not really one to suggest them.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

All needs to thrive is some solid kill options. Right now he has a great neutral game, good damage racking, and huge trap potential, but his only reliable killer is B-air, with all other "kill moves" having some glaring flaw. Improve U-smash power, D-smash end lag, and/or F-air power and he'll excel.

Voting .

 

[Green Zelda]

Server maintenance is going on NOW! (well for me at least)
Is it time?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Server maintenance is going on NOW! (well for me at least)
Is it time?

No.

 

[Green Zelda]

Nevermind, it stopped. They might have been fixing something, I don't know.
Voting for !

 

[MarioMeteor]

All needs to thrive is some solid kill options. Right now he has a great neutral game, good damage racking, and huge trap potential, but his only reliable killer is B-air, with all other "kill moves" having some glaring flaw. Improve U-smash power, D-smash end lag, and/or F-air power and he'll excel.

Voting .

Up smash is plenty strong with Rage. Honestly, it would be kind of ridic if it was stronger.

 

[Zerp]

Sorry for any inconveniences this'll cause but I'd like to let you ladies and gentlemen know that I'll probably be updating this thread 30 minutes early or perhaps even earlier today. There's a patch coming out later today and I'd like to document Jigglypuff's changes as quickly as possible if there are any, if it comes out early enough I'll update this at our normal time, but the maintenance window makes it look like it'll come really close to when I normally update it, so I'm not making any promises.

 

[DKGrayson]

Is it definitely today? It looks like it just says "In May"