The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Smashifer]

I think Pit's perfectly fine the way he is actually.

Let's vote for the other guy who screams a lot:

 

[Zerp]

I feel like Pit's pretty much a lesser version of Mario, a extremely well designed character that probably doesn't need any buffs, but still isn't quite as strong as Mario.
Here's Pit's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1CEFJj_9v6rJz23zaSWT7a8N5xzECC3RRMmQf332phas/viewanalytics
Here's Zelda's poll http://goo.gl/forms/lOsV41f7Rr

You can vote for these people who may or may not be the only thing you'll see next E3

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the character people finally put out of bottom tower when she received her buffs until they realized that she was still quite awful. She has a few noticeable weaknesses in approaching and being able to control her advantage state, both of which stems from her frame data and hitboxes. My requested buffs:

~Why does Side B free fall, again?
~F-air and B-air need larger hitboxes. They're currently much worse versions of Falcon's knee, and this would help them be somewhat comparable to it.
~Give Nair some auto cancel frames. This would immensely help her mediocre approach game.
~Slightly reduce the startup of up air to allow easier platform chases and Hoo Hahs.
~Make up-B's FAF much lower to allow for earlier air drifting. Also, make hit 1 have set knockback so it always combos into hit 2 if you read the DI.
~Give down-B an early hitbox to stop any blind spots from happening.


Voting .

 

[Zerp]

I feel like Zelda deserves and should get buffs, but I don't really want her to get buffed more soon very much, she already has what, 24 buffs? I'm a wee bit jealous, okay, scratch the wee bit part, I'm very jealous. Watching her get so many buffs while I get nothing kind of puffles my jigglies.
Zelda's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jTh-T76yd4r3-uDQuQ5CqDN5Pw3DNsSa01hseUoZuPQ/viewanalytics
Link's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/66tTHGRguK
You can vote for these people who don't wear green tunics very often.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Yes, needs buffs. Yes, he's worse than his Toon counterpart by a good margin. But no, he's not terrible as some people might think. He simply doesn't have as much representation here, but he has plenty in Europe. He's a great character in theory, and the only place he really lacks in is some frame data:

~Decrease startup of dash attack. This would allow it to finish a combo more easily, especially when combined with the B-air buff below.
~Decrease end lag of D-throw. It's almost an amazing combo throw, except that it doesn't combo into much because of its end lag. This would allow many more options to work from grab.
~While we're at it, give him the Lucas treatment and reduce grab's end lag.
~Decrease end lag and knockback of B-air so it's better at comboing and approaching instead of killing.
~Decrease landing lag of U-air for more combo ability.

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

For Glory Links have filled me with a passionate hate for the character, so I'll withhold my thoughts on him and just vote for Ike.

 

[Rhinomaster22]

Can't really think of buffs that wouldn't make him too good so i'll vote for Buff Marth.

 

[Zerp]

I think Link is around the top of low tier or the bottom of mid tier, he should probably get buffed, but, much like Zelda, I'm also jealous of his buffs, still, I think he should be buffed, I just don't want it much because of that.
Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NDOju1GQP5gysnsuqQYbki6tK_cww-67OAoSRV0hgEM/viewanalytics
Ike's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/fGRBbVdAgB
You can vote for these people who may or may not fight for their friends.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is almost ready to blossom as a character, but I think he's still mid tier because of his overall lagginess. I would buff just a couple things:

~U-throw should have less end lag, because even now it struggles to combo into much besides F-air. This would also give him a kill combo (into U-air), something he desperately needs because right now his moves are all quite laggy.
~D-air should have a lingering hitbox like the animation suggests. This would allow him to do similar things to Cloud in this regard.
~D-tilt should have less endlag. Its trajectory is perfect to start combos, but it fails to do so because it lasts a bit too long.

Voting .

 

[Deleted member]

is almost ready to blossom as a character, but I think he's still mid tier because of his overall lagginess. I would buff just a couple things:

~U-throw should have less end lag, because even now it struggles to combo into much besides F-air. This would also give him a kill combo (into U-air), something he desperately needs because right now his moves are all quite laggy.
~D-air should have a lingering hitbox like the animation suggests. This would allow him to do similar things to Cloud in this regard.
~D-tilt should have less endlag. Its trajectory is perfect to start combos, but it fails to do so because it lasts a bit too long.

Voting .

Literally none of this is true. I'd appreciate a better dair, fsmash and dsmash but Ike is a perfectly functioning character as is and a solid upper-mid tier.

 

[L9999]

Since I missed , I'll talk about him. Now, the main problem with besides that his recovery is garbage is that he is just TOO slow () on many areas. Outside of FG where lag cannot protect him, you get past his projectiles, a single combo gets offstage and he is totally dead. And when you get inside, Link can barely defend himself because he is too slow. In FG he can get away with jabs but not on live. What I suggest here:

• Air speed increased to 0.91. Spin Attack is terrible and Link falls like a brick, and with bad airspeed you have a really terrible recovery. An air speed increase won't prevent Link from getting gimped easily, but it would be thanked considerably and give him a chance to return.
• Link dashes slightly faster (1.3944 → 1.41). Nothing special, but the faster the merrier.
• Jab/Nair/Jumpsquat reduced startup to frame 5. It is still "slow" but way more respectable than what he has now. This would increase his close combat options massively. And seriously, why does Link takes so long to jump?
• Reduced endlag in Up Tilt and Down Tilt. They would combo more and help CQC.
• Hero’s Bow ending lag. Uncharged FAF (47 → 44). Fully charged FAF (83 → 79). Gale Boomerang has reduced ending lag FAF (46 → 43).Enough so they are more useful to wall out people offline, but enough so they don't become unpunishable online.
• Let Link hit himself with his bombs with Spin Attack. More recovery options.
• Grab Aerial deals 4% more damage (6% → 10%).

Regarding Zelda my opinions are in the OP.

Now the subject of the week, . I think Ike is fine and new blood should get used to him.

I vote .

 

[Zerp]

I think Ike's pretty well off, he got a lot of useful buffs that fixed a near hopeless character into being viable. He's a shining example of how low tier character's should be treated in patches.

Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1nKrHEuJswk_c4rFXJ2oTNugy5Ri6r6yA5V6gsCHAY8o/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Swordfighter's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/ZK2xQ6idEu

You can vote for these people who all don't use swords.


Anyways, for this round, the Miis are being treated as Guest XXXX, because I needed some standard otherwise the ratings will be all over the place, and that's the ruleset they use over here, sorry if it's different from your local rules but please bear with it. If you want, you can also include statements on the 1111 version or any other variant as well, or, if there's enough demand, I'll make 1111 versions of the polls for the characters, still, sorry if this is disappointing to anyone.

 

[L9999]

I will talk mainly about 1111, because that's who I am used to, so this post might contain potential bias. I think his customs need no changes, Spin Attack, Rainbow Cape and Chakram are amazing. Now, why Mii Swordfighter sucks? Because he has all the qualities to suck. Juggle food, bad mobility, slow attack speed, a single touch offstage is death, meh grab game, and poor approach options. This makes up for very volatile MUs and most of them are bad. Only masochists like me would play guest 1111 SF, but there are salvageable things, like extremely good damage output, some decent combos, disjoint, frame data that isn't complete garbage, and good edgeguarding.

1111 Specials

• Gale Strike- This thing needs less overall lag. It has so much potential to be a bait move and zoning move but it is too slow for that.
• Airborne Assault- This move is complete garbage. The first property that needs to be removed is the stupidity of "hit offstage, pulls back helpless" Seriously, with that horrid aerial mobility it is difficult enough to recover, so why including this crippling property? The next thing is the move move way faster. It is so slow you can take tea, read the news, and then position yourself to hit SF. No effort needed. Just like Gravitational Gimp. Also, kinda wishful thinking, but, walljump out of Side B. That would be cool and prevent SDs. But just personal thing.
• Stone Scabbard- Let this thing grab the ledge backwards, so it is easier to edgeguard with it, to make up for the fact that the ascent of the move has no hitbox.
• Counter- This one isn't bad. Kinda slow, but it hits like a TRUCK. I'll let it pass.

Ground game

• Shave off endlag of Up Tilt. Better combo and bait ability.
• Down Tilt comboing better. Letting it combo consistently into anything other than Nair, like Fair, tilts or Smash attacks. Right now it is kind of unreliable.
• Up Smash having bigger horizontal range. Those animations are extremely insulting. So many punishes I would have gotten....
• Jabs are maybe one frame less of startup.
• Side Tilt maybe more knockback or reducing the satrtup, but IMO is a filler move overshadowed by SF's other moves.
• Down Smash is OK, kinda rare for swordfighters (ehem!!! ).
• Dash Attack is amazing.

Air game
Nothing to say in this department because despite the kinda sucky startup SF's aerials are amazing. Dair, Uair, Bair, Fair, Nair. All useful in some way. Maybe less startup on Nair but whatever.

Grab game
Swordfighter's grab game is kinda bad. That grab needs to be bigger. That pummel needs more damage to make up for the sluggishness. And Back Throw and Foward Throw should send at a more disadvantageous position if they are not going to kill.

Other
Improved aerial mobility- Not by much but enough to followup more of Down Throw and other stuff. Having bad air mobility AND a sucky jump isn't nice.
Walljump- So, has walljump, has walljump, freaking has walljump, but why doesn't have one? "Bekoz hees a soowrdfightter" says hi, kinda has one. There is no excuse why wouldn't need a walljump.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Guest XXXX Swordfighter is pretty good, but just falls below mid tier in my eyes. What he needs is less end lag on his projectiles (more efficient traps), better aerial mobility (to help approach and recovery), a walljump (why do the other Miis get it but not him?), better combo ability on up and down tilt, and a kill throw. Adding these would make him a real threat, worth using over more sword fighters than just Roy.

Voting .

 

[L9999]

Guest XXXX Swordfighter is pretty good, but just falls below mid tier in my eyes. What he needs is less end lag on his projectiles (more efficient traps), better aerial mobility (to help approach and recovery), a walljump (why do the other Miis get it but not him?), better combo ability on up and down tilt, and a kill throw. Adding these would make him a real threat, worth using over more sword fighters than just Roy.

Voting .

So....he is low tier. But it is nice to see that others see what the problems with Mii Swordfighter are. And I forgot my vote, I vote , who is the most disappointing thing since my son (who doesn't exist).

 

[Smashifer]

I don't know anything on the Miis so I'll just cast my vote instead

Show us some

 

[Zerp]

Being blunt, I have little to no knowledge on Mii Swordfighter, he's definitely the Mii I understand the least, so uh, other than saying I think he's mid tier and that he should get moderate buffs I really don't have anything to add.
Anyway, here's his results:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1aE99J9-nuA8UlvGAjV-CNpApGbz7-KgR7BR0flhqMh8/viewanalytics
Here's Bowser Jr's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/HztTEYGaKL

You can vote for these poiuytedaghgsjkahsnkxmkshaushuaihsasgasfatfsgjaksoiquyehywet6dyayus8ausudhuisahs.


Also, as a little side question, do you ladies and gentlewomen think anything may come out of the multiple periods of upcoming maintenance ?

 

[Green Zelda]

Also, as a little side question, do you ladies and gentlewomen think anything may come out of the multiple periods of upcoming maintenance ?

There will probably be a patch, imo. If they listened to the complaints regarding , , , and even , a patch aimed at seems inevitable.

Voting for !

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

actually has a ton of potential, but Tweek dropping him really hurt his representation (like what people falsely thought about Pac-Man with Abadango). Additionally, he still has quite a few problems that need to be addressed:

~Clown Cannon is a terrible move. It has way too much lag, and it really doesn't have much power. I feel like cutting a lot of the lag will make it a good zoning tool.
~Related to that, Mechakoopa is a bit more useful for offense, but releasing it still has way too much end lag. Cut that please.
~Landing D-air should be like Fox's and have much less knockback to allow for followups at high percent.
~D throw should have a more vertical angle, and B throw should have more KBG.
~Side B has a lot of potential, but its slow startup and movement makes it easy to anticipate or gimp. Reducing that would help a lot.


Voting .

 

[MacSmitty]

I don't know much about Bowser Jr and his Kooapling counterparts, so I'll just vote for Ness.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Being blunt, I have little to no knowledge on Mii Swordfighter, he's definitely the Mii I understand the least, so uh, other than saying I think he's mid tier and that he should get moderate buffs I really don't have anything to add.
Anyway, here's his results:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1aE99J9-nuA8UlvGAjV-CNpApGbz7-KgR7BR0flhqMh8/viewanalytics
Here's Bowser Jr's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/HztTEYGaKL

You can vote for these poiuytedaghgsjkahsnkxmkshaushuaihsasgasfatfsgjaksoiquyehywet6dyayus8ausudhuisahs.


Also, as a little side question, do you ladies and gentlewomen think anything may come out of the multiple periods of upcoming maintenance ?

Don't they have to mention smash though? Or did 1.1.5 not mention it at all? I forget by this point. I don't think there will be another patch tomorrow but I really hope I'm wrong.

As for Bowser Jr., he defitenly need buffs, I'd say he's low tier and bottom 15, but not hopeless. I'm not fully sure what would help him be better, but I think buffing his cannon to have less startup and ending lag, and have the cannon ball move faster would make the move useless and help a ton. Buffing his frame data on many of his kill moves such as forward smash, down smash, and back air would probably help a ton too.

 

[Smashifer]

• Jab2 FAF reduced (frame 40 → frame 20)
• Rapid jab sends at a more horizontal angle
• Fsmash does more shield damage to mimic it in Bowser Jr.'s reveal trailer (the longer you charge it, the more shield damage it does)
• Nair now autocancels out of shorthop
• Clown Cannon (Neutral Special) has less startup and endlag
• Clown Kart Dash's invincibility now covers the entirety of the Kart, not just the underside
• Abandon Ship! (Up Special) Clown Kart hit links into the explosion better, as well as the Kart not taking as long to explode
• Mechakoopa (Down Special) FAF reduced (68 → 39)
• All grabs have increased range
• All grabs are faster
  • Standing: frame 12 → frame 10
  • Dash: frame 13 → frame 11
  • Pivot: frame 12 → frame 10
• Fthrow's angle changed (45° → 30°)
• Fthrow becomes a kill throw, reliably killing Mario at 120% at the ledge
• Uthrow angle changed (85° → 90°)
• Uthrow becomes a combo throw (like father, like son), and can combo into usmash at low percents, and nair and uair at mid and higher-mid percents
• Dash speed increased (1.424 → 1.48)

I made these suggestions in this thread, and I have to say I think this'll make him a much better character. I used to main BowJow, and if most or any of these buffs occur I'd pick him up again in an instant.

I vote for

 

[L9999]

Bowser Jr. as I mentioned before with a joke, is a disappointment, who was carried by a really good player. He is "decent" but that's all he can strive for, and he is very technically demanding and...I dunno, he is unappealing. That's why almost no one plays him.

· Cannonball has significantly less start-up and ending lag.
· Bowser Jr. can now shield or airdodge during Clown Kart Dash. Now has a hitbox in the air.
· Abandon Ship kart hit connects better with the explosion.
· Mechakoopa has less ending lag.
· Jabs are more consistent.
· Down Tilt is more consistent.
· Up Tilt’s hitbox now completely matches the animation, allowing Up Tilt to hit in front of it.
· Side Smash deals more shield damage.
· Nair can now autocancel in a short hop. Nair now has hitboxes on the kart.
· Grab is longer and has reduced startup and ending lag.
· Down Throw can now combo. Damage increased (8% → 10%).
· Foward Throw can now KO reliably.

This is what I wrote a long time ago and I will proceed to explain. Cannonball is garbage. Not even in FG or in casual play it is good. Any improvements to it is a blessing. CKD is good, but it is kinda inconsistent. Abandon Ship should be menacing to be hit with. Jab/Down Tilt are inconsistent messes. You can SDI them with very little mashing and because the endlag in both is bad you can punish inmediately. Up Tilt has an insulting animation, and giving it better hitboxes would be an additional CQC option, which is always welcomed. Side Smash is laggy and it drills! It is disappointing you get the read, gets shielded and free punish. I mean, I know Side Smash is really strong, and it having the threat to break your shield is scary, but realistically you will never get hit with this move unless you are extremely predictable and seeing how "Shield Breaker" almost never breaks your shield....Nair autocancelling and better hitboxes. Bowser Jr. BEGS for OoS options and CQC options. Bowser Jr.'s grab game right now is garbage, and being a fundamental part of Smash 4 it shouldn't be as sucky a it is.

 

[Zerp]

Don't they have to mention smash though? Or did 1.1.5 not mention it at all? I forget by this point. I don't think there will be another patch tomorrow but I really hope I'm wrong.

It didn't mention anything at all for 1.1.5, so it was a possibility, although, since there wasn't anything odd when I booted up Smash, I'm willing to bet there wasn't a patch anyway.

For Bowser Jr. I don't really care what they do with him as long as they make his cannon not the world's most useless weapon in the history of anything ever. Seriously, neutral B needs a good fixing.

Here's Bowser Jr.'s results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1LjYyIKxZdpTBq8pvDMEPav1vdyFJRS5bSmPg5lJbWtk/viewanalytics
Here's Peach's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/HiwRWwCVCb

You can vote for these people who are all almost certainly not royalty.

 

[Green Zelda]

-all hits of dash attack connect reliably at high percents
-increase the speed of turnip plucking a tad bit
-peach parasol can grab the ledge from behind (while in "gliding mode")
-increase walking/dashing speeds a bit

Most of these ^ aren't really needed, but I'll post anything else I can come up with!

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the secret high tier who takes a crazy amount of skill to master and as such doesn't have much representation. Her infinite was mostly removed, which puts her solidly in mid tier in my eyes. I would buff one thing: Cut a few frames off down throw and down B. This would give her a solid combo starter at much wider percents and a safer zoning tool.

Voting .

 

[L9999]

Peach is such a meme I cannot put my thoughts firmly on her. Maybe less lag on turnips or make her Down Smash not complete garbage, but really I'm clueless.

To who I vote I'm clueless as well. None of the characters left are "shaky" enough to discuss in depth (at least for me) and everyone pisses on Ness but whatever, put my vote as "anything goes".

 

[Green Zelda]

Here's a balance related question. In the competitive impressions thread, a discussion regarding "honest" characters popped up, and someone said this:

Spoiler

"Say there are two people who challenge eachother in a back alley to a knife...err sword fight. These people are Pit and Bayonetta.

Pit obliges to the conditions , bringing his sword. He is honest, fufills the conditions, and does not falter in any particular area. He offers no significant advantage in the fight and relies purely on his own skill in order to succeed. He isn't flashy, and doesn't have any trump card that would make audiences bet on him to win the fight from no where when losing. He stays in a steady course the entire time.

Bayonetta brings a minigun to the fight, unbeknownst to Pit. Her advantage here is incredibly higher, and people complain because she is dishonest and basically cheated. Her weaknesses are minimal, with the most notable one being the startup on the minigun before firing away. She can carry the fight much better due to her more broken tools in this case that offer her a better advantage that basically mitigates her disadvantage of startup and maybe sluggish dodging holding it. Audiences complain to eachother that she cheated, but secretly they are betting for her to win the fight. She even freezes time with her trump card when Pit is upclose with his honest sword should things go wrong.

That's how I wanted to analyse them. I've got a good metaphor/analogy for Mewtwo vs Mario too that I'll post later after watching Pound 2016."

So, if we could have things our way, would we want to balance this game so all of the characters to be "honest"? Or would we want them all to be a bit more than that?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Peach is pretty much undebatably high tier. She has everything she needs and then some, even though she is one of the most technically demanding characters in the game.

Here's a balance related question. In the competitive impressions thread, a discussion regarding "honest" characters popped up, and someone said this:

Spoiler

"Say there are two people who challenge eachother in a back alley to a knife...err sword fight. These people are Pit and Bayonetta.

Pit obliges to the conditions , bringing his sword. He is honest, fufills the conditions, and does not falter in any particular area. He offers no significant advantage in the fight and relies purely on his own skill in order to succeed. He isn't flashy, and doesn't have any trump card that would make audiences bet on him to win the fight from no where when losing. He stays in a steady course the entire time.

Bayonetta brings a minigun to the fight, unbeknownst to Pit. Her advantage here is incredibly higher, and people complain because she is dishonest and basically cheated. Her weaknesses are minimal, with the most notable one being the startup on the minigun before firing away. She can carry the fight much better due to her more broken tools in this case that offer her a better advantage that basically mitigates her disadvantage of startup and maybe sluggish dodging holding it. Audiences complain to eachother that she cheated, but secretly they are betting for her to win the fight. She even freezes time with her trump card when Pit is upclose with his honest sword should things go wrong.

That's how I wanted to analyse them. I've got a good metaphor/analogy for Mewtwo vs Mario too that I'll post later after watching Pound 2016."

So, if we could have things our way, would we want to balance this game so all of the characters to be "honest"? Or would we want them all to be a bit more than that?

To be honest, pun not intended, there are very few "honest" characters in this game. Every character has something about them that's less than straightforward. Hell, even Ganondorf, Zelda, and Jigglypuff can kill you at 40% if you let them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Peach is such a meme I cannot put my thoughts firmly on her. Maybe less lag on turnips or make her Down Smash not complete garbage, but really I'm clueless.

To be fair, Peach's d-smash is better now than it was in Brawl.

 

[Zerp]

I find Peach to be pretty well balanced, I don't think she needs nerfs or buffs or any variety really.

Here's her results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1nFUilqb7-sTo_tWuvleayTbnMQHVu7PwEQXM-JXm-E8/viewanalytics
And here's Mii Gunner's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/JQV9pcNC0G

Also, once again, we're treating Mii Gunner as Guest XXXX on the poll, but your welcome to discuss any other variant if you want to.

You can vote for these people who are all in agreement that Popplio is obviously the best starter.

Edit: Oh, and before I forget, I vote for Yoshi, bane of Jigglypuff and destroyer of pantries.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

in guest XXXX has a couple problems. She's a master zoner, but her up close game can be disappointing. My suggested buffs:

~Up throw turned into something like Falco's so it can combo much better.
~Up and down tilts have less end lag so they can combo into other moves better.
~Jab and U smash connect more reliably, and F smash is more powerful.
~Dair has a bigger spike hitbox.
~Neutral B 1 is more powerful, Side B 3 is quicker, and Down B 1 gets the same hitbox as Fox's.


Voting .

 

[Djmarcus44]

I feel that any one of these buffs would be enough to make Gunner a decent character relative to the rest of the cast.

1. Make Gunner's reflector a more reliable combo breaker by buffing the hitbox size of the hitboxes to match the animation and increasing the duration of the reflector hitboxes to match the animation.

2. Give either up tilt, dtilt, or Uthrow the gunner up air treatment. This means that one of these moves would be buffed to deal 1% more damage and kill about 25% earlier.

3. Decrease the endlag of down throw by 5 frames.

4. Reduce the endlag of jab 1 by 5 frames. This would allow Gunner to combo into other moves with a jab.

Spoiler: Quality of life buffs

Gunner's jab, usmash, and dsmash should connect better. Gunner's ftilt, flame pillar, bair, dtilt, fsmash, and up air should have slightly larger hitboxes to match their animations. It would also be nice if Gunner's nair was frame 5, and Gunner's pummel did 1% more damage.

 

[L9999]

Gonna talk 1111 again bear with me.
Stronger Charge Blast- This thing should be more than chip damage, it should be threatening.
Flame Pillar- Less lag overall so this move can be scary.
Reflector maybe shine spiking to make it worth something over Bomb Drop.
Add everything D Djmarcus44 said.

I vote "anything goes"

 

[Zerp]

I've always viewed Guest XXXX Gunner as a middle of the road character, I'd like to see them become buffed, but honestly, I don't feel like I know enough about the character to really comment on how and why they should be buffed.

Here's their results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1C-G-hhvQAz8gsO56RP1NHuykKt4A2Siw22g0bnExC7w/viewanalytics
Here's Donkey Kong's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/1Jbq7pz5Xr
And here's Waluigi: http://i.imgur.com/PH9aBXV.gif

You can vote for these people who cannot control the mystical power of EXPAND.

I'll vote for Charizard.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

From now on, my nerf suggestions will be marked with --, and my buff suggestions will be marked with +.

is a very polarizing character. He can punish hard, especially with rage, but he can struggle with approaching and being combo and gimp food. My suggestions:

--Nerf up throw damage to 8%, but alter the knockback so it launches the same distance. See two posts below for explanation.
+Reduce end lag of D smash and U smash, and make U smash scoop.
+Reduce startup and endlag of down and side B.
+Why does neutral B free fall, again?
+Make D tilt trip more reliably.
+Expand dong range of N air.


Voting .

 

[L9999]

Imagine if DK's nair hitbox was bigger. And his Up Smash actually scooped. Aside from that, I don't see anything wrong with DK. If you think his reward is kinda silly remember that his ledge options are complete garbage and you can totally abuse them.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

If you're wondering why I want up throw damage nerfed, it's because right now it's one of the best and most reliable combo throws in the game in terms of usefulness alone: It's impossible to DI enough for DK to need to read it, it has little knockback growth allowing followups to work at wide percents, and yet it still drags the opponent high into the air (if you jump into it) to allow Ding Dong to kill really early. To add onto all of this, it does ten percent--not five to eight like most other combo throws--TEN.

I'll compare it to another heavyweight whose up throw was buffed, Bowser. His up throw was buffed for comboing, but at the same time its damage output was nerfed by FOUR percent (from ten percent to six). Furthermore, he then got this throw nerfed the next patch without compensation. Would it be unreasonable, then, to expect DK's even better throw to be nerfed in damage by TWO percent? It wouldn't ruin him, because it would still combo into the same things with the knockback buff I then suggested. (In fact, if the knockback weren't buffed, it would help DK even more by allowing the Ding Dong to work at even higher percents.)

 

[Jmacz]

I don't know to much about DK as I don't play him and not many do. From the little I do know, and from what I'm reading here it seems like he is pretty balanced now after all the buffs. I wasn't aware of how much damage his up-throw did however, I'll have to agree there and say that should be nerfed by 2-4%. His aerials already do loads of damage, so such a small decrease isn't going to hurt him much. Other than that maybe make his D-Tilt or Jab come out a bit faster. Looking at his frame data and he doesn't have a many quick options, so I'm sure any help there would be appreciated.

And I will once again vote for Charizard

 

[L9999]

If you're wondering why I want up throw damage nerfed, it's because right now it's one of the best and most reliable combo throws in the game in terms of usefulness alone: It's impossible to DI enough for DK to need to read it, it has little knockback growth allowing followups to work at wide percents, and yet it still drags the opponent high into the air (if you jump into it) to allow Ding Dong to kill really early. To add onto all of this, it does ten percent--not five to eight like most other combo throws--TEN.

I'll compare it to another heavyweight whose up throw was buffed, Bowser. His up throw was buffed for comboing, but at the same time its damage output was nerfed by FOUR percent (from ten percent to six). Furthermore, he then got this throw nerfed the next patch without compensation. Would it be unreasonable, then, to expect DK's even better throw to be nerfed in damage by TWO percent? It wouldn't ruin him, because it would still combo into the same things with the knockback buff I then suggested. (In fact, if the knockback weren't buffed, it would help DK even more by allowing the Ding Dong to work at even higher percents.)

.

Ding Dong doing crazy damage and KOing is a compensation for being a heavyweight. By design they are going to lose neutral a lot, but they only need few interactions to win. And unless it is a low tier or a really predictable player, it won't be easy. And DK gets mauled hard by juggling (not hard at all) and being at the ledge at all (seriously, NEVER let him get off there, chip damage him until he dies). DK is also a punisher character, who makes you feel bad for commiting mistakes, so I think it is a worthy trade.

I vote "anything goes"