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The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

Zerp

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Is it definitely today? It looks like it just says "In May"
Eh, I don't know, but it does say "2016年5月17日" on it, but I can't tell if that's because it's the day it's announced or because it's supposed to arrive today. I don't think it means that it's confirmed for today, but I'll be keeping an eye out for it anyway since there's supposed to be maintenance today for Wii U and 3DS services.
 
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Rhinomaster22

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I'll bust out laughing if they give low tiers unnoticeable buffs, nerf Sheik again, and Jigglypuff and King DeDeDe receives nothing. AGAIN. :happysheep:

It was only joking. :(
 
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Zerp

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Mega Man is hard for me to gauge, his theory isn't that strong but his results show otherwise, I guess a little buffs can't hurt but I'd rather not give him much, I don't think he needs it a lot.

Here's Mega Man's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1LtvgFnBZdy8a8auUmvaRtVgMt4zFDRlt44z4gOFbrDA/viewanalytics
Here's Captain Falcon's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/8jugBOnc1r87gpYt2

You can vote for these people who, try as they might, cannot do a FALCOWN PAWNCH!!!111!!!
:4darkpit::4ness::4sonic::4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi::4miibrawl:

Also, in case you guys were wondering, no, the patch did not come out yet, and the listed maintenance period's over, so I'm guessing that means it probably won't come out today. :p (Inb4 it comes out two seconds after I post this)
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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:4falcon: is in a similar boat to Meta Knight and in extension Bayonetta, as he has a huge advantage when he gets in, but he struggles to get in. He additionally has the flaw of an easily gimpable recovery. My few buff suggestions:

+Decrease landing lag of Knee, or at least if you don't land the sweet spot.
+Make Falcon Punch a bit quicker and more powerful so it has SOME kind of competitive use.
+Slightly decrease end lag of D throw so it can true combo into Knee or Stomp if you read the DI.


Voting for the Tiny Child with Psychic Powers, :4ness:
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Captain Falcon's air speed should probably be increased to 1.18, because he needs the air mobility to compensate for how predictable his recovery is.
 

MarioMeteor

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Captain Falcon is what Roy should be. He's definitely fine as is. Also, Zerp Zerp , I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.
 

Zerp

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Sorry for the slight delay, I had some business to attend to. (why do I even apologize for 10 minute delays, does anyone even care? lol)
Captain Falcon is what Roy should be. He's definitely fine as is. Also, Zerp Zerp , I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.
Oh don't worry, my hopes aren't high at all, and if I were to be completely honest, I'm kind of dreading this upcoming patch.

Anyways, I think Captain Falcon's pretty much fine and dandy, there's not much for me too talk about.

Here's Captain Falcon's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ngwkgBMQMXHvWX0X_61W4jBfVvOoMYykGcDyRltcgvE/viewanalytics

Here's Ness's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/W34sK6ocPsy6naz93
You can vote for these people who don't have the ability to use PK FIYAH.
:4darkpit::4sonic::4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi::4miibrawl:
 
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Tizio Random

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I just wanted to say about :4falcon: that I agree with less landing lag on his fair. A bit less wouldn't hurt.
However: :4ness: is fine. He is finally the powerhouse he should always have been. His best attacks are really strong with "ebola back throw" being the main offender but he's balanced by having an extremely gimpable recovery (but you still have to be careful) and a not stellar mobility to keep in check.
Vote for 20EdgeEdge :4darkpit:
 

L1N3R1D3R

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People complain about :4ness:'s easy-bake combos and insane killers, but then they notice his gimpable recovery and easy to exploit neutral game. For these reasons, he's fins as he is, having noticeable weaknesses but great strengths.

Voting for the king of Edge, Pittoo.
 
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Wintermelon43

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Ness is fine as is. Perhaps in a future game, PK Fire and his recovery could be slightly buffed.

I vote for :4yoshi:
 

L9999

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Wow, I expected people to go wilder against Ness. A personal nitpick, that his PKT wallbounce on the left wall works like the left one and PK Rickochet deleted from existence and never to be seen again. I would say something about his crappy down air, like, maybe reducing the startup to be usable, or hit like a truck like in Brawl to compesate how frikin slow it is, or nitpicks like Up Tilt having pathetic range but for that is Up Smash, so yeah, nothing else to say personally.

Nerf the Ebola Back Throw and maybe PK Fire and he might be bearable.
Ebola Back Throw is there to compensate garbage recovery and ground mobility. PK Fire is super easy to SDI and by this point everyone should know how to, my friend just began playing Smash 4 and he learned to SDI PKF instantly (though he plays Peach, so he has an easier time).

I guess I vote the character no one plays and who I dropped, Dark Pit.
 
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MarioMeteor

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Wow, I expected people to go wilder against Ness. A personal nitpick, that his PKT wallbounce on the left wall works like the left one and PK Rickochet deleted from existence and never to be seen again. I would say something about his crappy down air, like, maybe reducing the startup to be usable, or hit like a truck like in Brawl to compesate how frikin slow it is, or nitpicks like Up Tilt having pathetic range but for that is Up Smash, so yeah, nothing else to say personally.


Ebola Back Throw is there to compensate garbage recovery and ground mobility. PK Fire is super easy to SDI and by this point everyone should know how to, my friend just began playing Smash 4 and he learned to SDI PKF instantly (though he plays Peach, so he has an easier time).

I guess I vote the character no one plays and who I dropped, Dark Pit.
I don't care what it's there for, it doesn't make being KO'd at 80% any less ridiculous. Besides, I don't think he'd fall below mid tier without it anyway. If he does, excellent.
 
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L9999

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I don't care what it's there for, it doesn't make being KO'd at 80% any less ridiculous. Besides, I don't think he'd fall below mid tier without it anyway. If he does, excellent.
I don't mean to attack you or sound like a biased elitist, but you need to learn counterplay. I know getting Back Thrown for a silly mistake sucks, I have played good Ness players with Lucina, but it's part of his design. In every Smash game he has B-throw, heck, in Smash 64 he had F-throw too to mess around. And it doesn't K.O at 80, unless you are light at the edge. B-throw is dependent on position, rage, DI, and weight. On average it kills at 110-130%, just like every good kill move in the game. If you don't like Ness, or any top tier for that matter, then fine, but be reasonable and don't wish things get nerfed to please you. I gave up on Gravitational Pull nerfs a long time ago, and I personally dislike playing against Mario, like, I rather play against Rosalina, but it was when I stopped getting salty when I could fight Marios properly again. And like I always recommend, GIMP NESS. Right now I'm on my phone so I can't see your main, so I assume it is Mario. You have like the easiest time of your life gimping Ness, and you can juggle him all day if you wanted to. Happy Smashing.
 

Zerp

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Personally, I think Ness is fine, he doesn't need any buffs or nerfs in my opinion, but my opinion's subjective. Also, bit off topic, but may I ask what his back-throw has to do with Ebola? Is that some sort of meme? Please tell me it's a meme.

Here's Ness's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10dnZ-Gj5Pzon2rmES7uZu2A1mtiPV5Cjn7c66aAkIGc/viewanalytics
And here's Dark Pit's poll http://goo.gl/forms/oEWHFmcG4mLzP6XR2

You can vote for these people who probably aren't edgy clones of an angel. Probably.
:4sonic::4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi::4miibrawl:
 
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L9999

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Personally, I think Ness is fine, he doesn't need any buffs or nerfs in my opinion, but my opinion's subjective. Also, bit off topic, but may I ask what his back-throw has to do with Ebola? Is that some sort of meme? Please tell me it's a meme.

Here's Ness's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10dnZ-Gj5Pzon2rmES7uZu2A1mtiPV5Cjn7c66aAkIGc/viewanalytics
And here's Dark Pit's poll http://goo.gl/forms/oEWHFmcG4mLzP6XR2

You can vote for these people who probably aren't edgy clones of an angel. Probably.
:4sonic::4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi::4miibrawl:
Ebola Back Throw is a nickname made by KuroganeHammer in his frame data website.
 

Rhinomaster22

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Dark Pit:4darkpit:kind of fits under the same situation as Pit :4pit:.He has all the same strengths and weaknesses as Pit such as being very balance and being able to do a bit of everything but not excelling anywhere. If you change a aspect such as increasing his mobility or combo game he'll become like Mario:4mario: or Ryu :4ryu:since their all rounders but excel in one area as well. Changes to keep him balance but improving him would be making Forward tilt comboing into itself more efficiently like the move was alter to do.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4darkpit:, why is he a separate character from Pit? Literally their only differences are Pittoo's worse arrows, downgraded F-tilt, and more powerful, horizontal Side B. But whatever, like Pit all he needs to excel is slightly better mobility.

Voting :4miibrawl:.
 
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LancerStaff

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Dark Pit's Ftilt does a wonderful job of setting up tech chases into Electroshock at percents where it kills, so it's not like it's worthless or anything. Pit's is still better though.

Electroshock's more horizontal knockback isn't just for flavor either, since it makes it safer on hit (mostly for recovering) and an incredibly powerful, though risky, edgeguarding option. Nairo's done some crazy stuff offstage with it, lol.
 

MarioMeteor

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I don't mean to attack you or sound like a biased elitist, but you need to learn counterplay. I know getting Back Thrown for a silly mistake sucks, I have played good Ness players with Lucina, but it's part of his design. In every Smash game he has B-throw, heck, in Smash 64 he had F-throw too to mess around. And it doesn't K.O at 80, unless you are light at the edge. B-throw is dependent on position, rage, DI, and weight. On average it kills at 110-130%, just like every good kill move in the game. If you don't like Ness, or any top tier for that matter, then fine, but be reasonable and don't wish things get nerfed to please you. I gave up on Gravitational Pull nerfs a long time ago, and I personally dislike playing against Mario, like, I rather play against Rosalina, but it was when I stopped getting salty when I could fight Marios properly again. And like I always recommend, GIMP NESS. Right now I'm on my phone so I can't see your main, so I assume it is Mario. You have like the easiest time of your life gimping Ness, and you can juggle him all day if you wanted to. Happy Smashing.
True he's always had back throw, but it's never been as ridiculous as it is now. It may not KO at 80% (that was an obvious exaggeration), but fact of the matter is it's damn disgusting as is, let's not pretend that it isn't.
Personally, I think Ness is fine, he doesn't need any buffs or nerfs in my opinion, but my opinion's subjective. Also, bit off topic, but may I ask what his back-throw has to do with Ebola? Is that some sort of meme? Please tell me it's a meme.

Here's Ness's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10dnZ-Gj5Pzon2rmES7uZu2A1mtiPV5Cjn7c66aAkIGc/viewanalytics
And here's Dark Pit's poll http://goo.gl/forms/oEWHFmcG4mLzP6XR2

You can vote for these people who probably aren't edgy clones of an angel. Probably.
:4sonic::4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi::4miibrawl:
You know, I don't actually know where Ebola Back Throw originated from, but I found it so fitting that I started using it.

As for Dark Pit, he's an all right character, but I wish they'd make him different from Pit somehow. Right now he's literally nothing but Pit, only darker.
 

Tizio Random

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:4darkpit: is fine as it is but as MarioMeteor said above me, some changes to make him more different from Pit wouldn't be too bad. Maybe more damage in exchange for worse frame data, dunno? Give this guy the edge it deserve (ok, I swear I will stop with this terrible pun).
Vote for :4miibrawl:
 

LancerStaff

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The problem with trying to make Dark Pit more different from Pit is that they don't exactly have a good track record of properly balancing the two on top of it. Case in point, of the Marths Marth is just obviously the best, or Fox and Falco, or Mario and Doc.

Taking a character known for great frame data and making it worse probably isn't the best idea... Similarly all of Pit's moves are very well-thought-out next to each other, so significantly changing any move would probably end up being a nerf overall. They're kinda stuck with him being the way he is because anybody who plays him doesn't want him to play differently. It'd be like if they randomly changed Ike because people think he and Cloud are too similar.
 

L9999

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So, the Pit Bros. Yeah, this is a complete mess. I think between the 2 you can distribute Brawl un-nerfs to give them more niches between the 2, but I don't know, this characters are so unappealing and bleh no one would care if they were buffed or not because barely anyone plays them.

Both:
Up Smash having more horizontal range. Screw the animation.
Down Tilt less 3 frames of endlag.
Up Tilt less 8 frames of endlag. (This move is so pathetic no one would notice).
All salute Brawl Back Air. I think they deserve their "best" kill move back.

Pit:
Foward Tilt has its Brawl damage back (12%). It is so slow and punishable its funny. People that let themselves be hit by it should be ashamed more for being hit by it.

Dark Pit:
Less endlag on arrows. They move slow, they don't bend, and on top of that they are super laggy?
Foward Tilt sped the hell up. If it is not going to kill at least make it a good GTFO option instead of being a waste of moveset slot.
 
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LancerStaff

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I dunno, I don't think Marth is obviously the best, that's a bit of an exaggeration.
Not really. Killing easily off a random Fair or Ftilt and more damage/safety on spaced hits is better then situational Fsmash confirms.

Unless you're talking about Roy, but...

So, the Pit Bros. Yeah, this is a complete mess. I think between the 2 you can distribute Brawl un-nerfs to give them more niches between the 2, but I don't know, this characters are so unappealing and bleh no one would care if they were buffed or not because barely anyone plays them.

Both:
Up Smash having more horizontal range. Screw the animation.
Down Tilt less 3 frames of endlag.
Up Tilt less 8 frames of endlag. (This move is so pathetic no one would notice).
All salute Brawl Back Air. I think they deserve their "best" kill move back.

Pit:
Foward Tilt has its Brawl damage back (12%). It is so slow and punishable its funny. People that let themselves be hit by it should be ashamed more for being hit by it.

Dark Pit:
Less endlag on arrows. They move slow, they don't bend, and on top of that they are super laggy?
Foward Tilt sped the hell up. If it is not going to kill at least make it a good GTFO option instead of being a waste of moveset slot.
I don't think you understand the character at all...

Usmash doesn't need horizontal range. Vertical range, downwards, would be very helpful in scooping people up off the ground as a punish. Horizontal wouldn't help at all because it's for catching people above you.

Dtilt's got more lag because it has more range in SSB4. It's just safe as Corrin's Dtilt right now and has almost double the range.

Utilt isn't useless. It's hilariously disjointed upwards and a safer anti-air then Usmash.

Bair's also got a gigantic range increase and the sweetspot lasts the length of the move, on top of the sourspot being placed almost entirely on his body. It's less powerful for a good reason.

Ftilt's main use is using the lingering hitbox to catch people with the tipper that kills, usually on ledge getups. Brawl Ftilt wasn'treally good for anything... This is a decent punish option because of the range, too.

I agree on Dark Pit's arrows but that's mostly because Pit's effectively have better frame data. Pit can shoot three in the air in the time Dark Pit can shoot two on the ground and does more damage to boot.

No objections on Dark Pit's Ftilt either.
 

FamilyTeam

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Not really. Killing easily off a random Fair or Ftilt and more damage/safety on spaced hits is better then situational Fsmash confirms.

Unless you're talking about Roy, but...
Because that is all that Lucina is about, apparently.
 

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Mii Brawler :4miibrawl:suffers from a similar issue :4mario: and :4luigi: as they both suffer from lack of range but they make up for it with good combos and throw combos. Seeing how :4miibrawl: is similar in terms of gameplay as Mario but with better killing moves such as Helicopter Kick, Onsluaght, and Ultimate Uppercut Bralwer has good kill options. All he honestly needs is throw combo options such as down throw and have access to customs.
 

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Because that is all that Lucina is about, apparently.
Even Pit and Ike space their swords... Heck, even Mario should be spacing to the best of his awful range. More damage and safety is more damage and safety no matter how you slice it.

There's only a handful of matchups where Lucina could be better, and that's debatable. Marth's objectively better overall. It's not that Lucina sucks, it's just that there's a better version of her on the roster and she's lacking any real competitive edge over him or really any other swordsman besides Roy.
 

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Even Pit and Ike space their swords... Heck, even Mario should be spacing to the best of his awful range. More damage and safety is more damage and safety no matter how you slice it.

There's only a handful of matchups where Lucina could be better, and that's debatable. Marth's objectively better overall. It's not that Lucina sucks, it's just that there's a better version of her on the roster and she's lacking any real competitive edge over him or really any other swordsman besides Roy.
We'll both Lucina :4lucina:and Roy :4feroy:are lacking compared to Marth :4marth:. Roy may be objectively better than Lucina but that's not much. His only real advantage is that he's faster than Marth and is sweet spot is easier to land. But for everything else Marth is better at. Marth has a stronger sweet spot, range to actually space, and sour spot can lead into more things which both clones lack. But that's just me :happysheep:
 

L9999

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Could we move our discussion of the FE clones somewhere else before Zerp Zerp Soul bans us?

So Mii Brawler. I think we could make 1111 usable if worst case scenario customs Miis are forbidden, because 1122 has seen some success, although it is up for debate.

So his specials: Shot Put sending horizontally and having more active frames. Since it is so slow at least make up for being a decent edgeguarding tool.
Onslaught: No fall-helpless-on-hit offstage.
Soaring Axe Kick: Let it grab the ledge backwards. Easier edgeguarding.
Down B: Let this thing snap the edge and make a shockwave hitbox.
 

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We'll both Lucina :4lucina:and Roy :4feroy:are lacking compared to Marth :4marth:. Roy may be objectively better than Lucina but that's not much. His only real advantage is that he's faster than Marth and is sweet spot is easier to land. But for everything else Marth is better at. Marth has a stronger sweet spot, range to actually space, and sour spot can lead into more things which both clones lack. But that's just me :happysheep:
Roy is objectively better than Lucina in what planet?
This is why I don't come to this site anymore.
 

Wintermelon43

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We'll both Lucina :4lucina:and Roy :4feroy:are lacking compared to Marth :4marth:. Roy may be objectively better than Lucina but that's not much. His only real advantage is that he's faster than Marth and is sweet spot is easier to land. But for everything else Marth is better at. Marth has a stronger sweet spot, range to actually space, and sour spot can lead into more things which both clones lack. But that's just me :happysheep:
Lucina is objectivly better than Roy.

Also as for Brawler, it's like with 1111 he REALLY needs buffs, but then he'd be broken in customs. I wish he just got all his moveset legal
 

L1N3R1D3R

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"Roy's sweetspot is easier to hit" Actually, it's easier to space. Marth's is easier to hit.

Anyway, about :4miibrawl:. He's a fairly balanced character in Guest XXXX, almost like :4falcon: but with better recovery and a useful neutral B. However, he still has issues in approaching or recovering vertically, and his punish game (in Guest size) doesn't QUITE make up for it. My two suggested changes:

+Give one of his aerials higher shield damage. They all have respectable landing lags and an autocancel might be too good, so this is a nice compromise.
+/--Make Helicopter Kick go higher but not have as much aerial control afterward. He already has amazing horizontal recovery with Feint Jump, so the buff would help his vertical distance, but the nerf would keep it from being too good at recovering and increase the chance that a combo ending with it will result in an SD, which somehow isn't common ATM.


Voting :4sonic:.
 

L9999

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Even Pit and Ike space their swords... Heck, even Mario should be spacing to the best of his awful range. More damage and safety is more damage and safety no matter how you slice it.

There's only a handful of matchups where Lucina could be better, and that's debatable. Marth's objectively better overall. It's not that Lucina sucks, it's just that there's a better version of her on the roster and she's lacking any real competitive edge over him or really any other swordsman besides Roy.
There you go, she doesn't suck and she should be respected on her own merits, regardless of her "inferiority" to Marth. For a quick mention, her Foward Smash is really freaking strong! This thing is so jank that if other character that wasn't pissed on had it everyone would cry "nerf it! wah wah" Unlike Marth's, you can always trust it will kill when you want and intend, and you can trust it no matter the space (when it hits obviously, you don't throw it out like a jack***). And her "situational" Foward Smash kill confirms kill at 50-60% at the edge with no rage, and with rage, Foward Smash a really crazy punish. There is a reason Kurogane calls her playstyle Foward Smash, because it is super crazy. Her damage output is very good too. On 2 touches Lucina does like 22%.
 

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There you go, she doesn't suck and she should be respected on her own merits, regardless of her "inferiority" to Marth. For a quick mention, her Foward Smash is really freaking strong! This thing is so jank that if other character that wasn't pissed on had it everyone would cry "nerf it! wah wah" Unlike Marth's, you can always trust it will kill when you want and intend, and you can trust it no matter the space (when it hits obviously, you don't throw it out like a jack***). And her "situational" Foward Smash kill confirms kill at 50-60% at the edge with no rage, and with rage, Foward Smash a really crazy punish. There is a reason Kurogane calls her playstyle Foward Smash, because it is super crazy. Her damage output is very good too. On 2 touches Lucina does like 22%.
Never said otherwise. The whole point is that Marth was obviously better. No disrespect to Lucina mains but she's not very well designed, and that's exactly what Dark Pits don't want to fall into.

They're situational because they're escapable, and the penalty for missing is severe. The Fsmash is really good, but it's still an Fsmash. Don't really understand who you're trying impress with that damage output when Pit's is like 2% worse on two hits and he has an actual grab game on top of it...
 

Airpoizon

Smash Apprentice
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I'm gonna get hate and disagreements, but since people are on the topic of Marth/Roy/Lucina, I think the order goes like this:

:4lucina: :4feroy: :4marth:

Let me explain, Lucina basically can cover Marth and Roys weaknesses, being their sour spots. She doesn't need strict spacing to rely on getting kills early. She can just do Jab 1 to f-smash lol. As for Roy, he's a good bit faster than the two, which makes Marths spacing a tad bit harder because Roy can just rush in. He also has more rely able combos then Marth and Lucina, with Marths being the least reliable because of his sour spots not doing much and tippers doing to much damage or sending to far.

Also disagree with me all you want, I'll understand lol. It's only logical.
 

Zerp

Formerly "ZeroSoul"
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Oh whoops, I just realized I probably should have reminded everyone this was guest xxxx, if you didn't vote for that, my bad, sorry.
I think Guest XXXX Brawler's pretty balanced overall and doesn't need any changes.
Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/16AHe6MstCadpyc4G92FWrvvF1BvNfOnLOFeAQY269JM/viewanalytics
Here's Sonic's poll http://goo.gl/forms/wyuRpCZ3AyB0yT753
You can vote for these people who are all too slow, not way past cool, and certainly not walking memes.
:4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi:
Edit: Oh, I almost forgot, would you guys like it if we rerated Bayonetta after everyone's done or would y'all rather wait until next round?
 
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