The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L1N3R1D3R]

Roy oh Roy, where did Sakurai go wrong with you? (Sorry, had to make that joke.) I'd like to see his sourspots actually given some use like Marth's, especially on D-air, and his (full) jump height increased to partly make up for his high fall speed. His frame data and power is great on paper, but these buffs would help him be a swordfighter who can actually space and recover okay.

Voting , our not-as-red, reversed boy.

 

[IsmaR]

This thread is now obsolete with the introduction of hacks.

Please avoid making unnecessary comments like these, as they serve no purpose other than to derail the thread.

 

[Zerp]

This thread is now obsolete with the introduction of hacks.

Eh, not really, it would be if this was for a hypothetical mod I was making, but I don't have or ever had have any intention of implementing any suggested changes. All this thread's supposed to be is a place to discuss the game's balance and how people feel about it, as long as people want to discuss balance, I think it has a purpose, but that's just me.

Anyways, I think Roy's Jigglypuff's long-lost twin brother, both characters are so very under appreciated outside of Smash and so very under-tuned in Smash, I think he just needs all-around buffs and general fixes, no one single change is going to fix him up imo.

Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1sPULPcJYreamGQZ3psY7Q5LBIWQ9r_8DaCVPWjeCeaQ/viewanalytics
And here's Pac-Man's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/HhGhYGcxa9blXyGF2
<-- You can vote for any of these people who may or may not glitch out every two seconds and actually have functioning grabs.
I vote for
Edit: Removed Pac-Man from the premise.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I've already mentioned it a few times, but could use for some fine tuning to become a true competitor. Here are my suggested buffs:


+ Make Side-B not bounce stupidly far from the ledge if you accidentally hit the corner incorrectly. I assume this is the game thinking you're hitting both the wall and the floor and thus doubling your bounce back distance, but I'm not really sure.

+ Make grab not suck. His throws are fine I guess, but mediocre throws PLUS an awful grab makes it almost not worth ever using. Make the hitboxes cover all of frames 12-39, and have less endlag.
----> Grab: Active frames 12-14,22-24,32-39 --> 12-21,22-31,32-39 // FAF 76 --> 66

+ Make smash attacks a bit quicker. Right now, even after slight power buffs, they're still a bit too slow for their power. Decrease all startups by 2 frames and endlags by 3 frames.
----> F-smash: Active frames 18-20,21-28 --> 16-18,19-26 // FAF 53 --> 48
----> U-smash: Active frames 13,16-18,19-26 --> 11,14-16,17-24 // FAF 50 --> 45
----> D-smash: Active frames 18-20,21-28 --> 16-18,19-26 // FAF 55 --> 50

+ Make D-air a soft spike like Kirby's, but a bit more powerful to make up for it being slower and having fewer active frames. Change the angle to downward, but decrease the knockback slightly to make it akin to, but a bit more powerful than, Kirby's.
----> D-air hit 4: Angle 65 --> 270 // BKB 80 --> 25 // KBG 90 --> 75


Voting . (Silly Zero Soul, Pac-Man's still in the list of characters! )

 

[Zerp]

Voting . (Silly Zero Soul, Pac-Man's still in the list of characters! )

I need to give you like a medal or something for catching my mistakes so often, like seriously, we'd probably end up rating the same characters over and over without you!

 

[L9999]

Wow, his grab is complete garbage. Last night I played one and he wanted to grab me, but I rolled away, and the beam was up, and I slowly walked, and Foward Smashed for the kill. To fix it, here is an idea inspired by someone from the Pac-Man boards. Pac-Man’s arm now has a grab-box at the beginning, which then moves to the beam. Grab-box now matches the actual beam. This way Pac-Man's grab is still kinda slow as intended, but way more functional and "versatile" if you will, close range grabs in the startup, and ranged grabs when the beam comes out. And before you think this is crazy, please go look the hitbox thread and see the horror that is Pac-Man's grab. And a grab like this fits with PAc-Man's weirdness/gimmickiness.

And now, for other things Pac-Man would appreciate:
What L1N3R1D3R said.

Voting as always.

 

[Wintermelon43]

imo his grab should be buffed to be........... a move in this game. Otherwise he's fine. He is litertatly hiariously underrated.

Voting for

 

[Zerp]

His grab is erm, really something alright, it should be made better, I don't care how as much as I do that they just change it.
Here's Pac-Man's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1UIvIyYyCOqJWWFhjvZGVFJR5FIgqLjCIRW6q67oCbCg/viewanalytics
And here's Lucina's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/gcX1OL9ekaWkf2ND2

<-- You may vote for any of these odd creatures.
I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

really needs something to set her apart. Maybe a speed buff? Maybe a bit better frame data? At the moment she's ALMOST entirely outclassed by Marth, which is kind of unfair.

Voting as well.

 

[L9999]

All right, let give this a shot. is not trash or anything, but she is hell underrated courtesy of elitists and lies. Now, Lucina is (I think, not sure what was Sakurai thinking) an "easy" Marth. I think that she should be easier than Marth, instead of being mostly inferior. And how do you make a character really easy? More speed, active frames, power, etc. But don't think I want to make Lucina Cloud's lost cousin, I want to give her something of worth that has nothing to do with Marth.

Attributes:
Walk acceleration: (0->0.5).
Air speed: (1.02->1.04).

Specials:
Dancing Blade 1: More air stall. Recovery mix-ups make it easier to recover.
Dancing Blade 4: More power. Seems appropiate as a finisher of a 4 hit sequence. And because no tippers it can be pulled off consistently. But DB is weird so don't know.
Dolphin Slash: Hitbox now matches animation. Nothing special, but it would be appreciated.
I have nothing on the other specials, Shield Breaker and Counter do their job being situational mix-ups.

Normals:
Dash Attack: Startup frame 13->9. This attack sucks, it can't punish crap!
Foward Tilt: KBG 77->80. Foward Tilt does mostly nothing, a bit more power would be nice.
Down Tilt: FAF (24 -> 22), active frames (2 -> 3).

Aerials:
Nair/Uair: Autocancel windows (frame 25 -> frame 47) (frame 27 -> frame 38) respectively. Autocancels are alway welcomed.
Dair: More active frames of the sweetspot. Easy spikes.

Grab game:
Pummel: 1% more damage.
Foward Throw: (100/50 -> 70/45 growth). More followup/techchasing opportunities.
Up Throw: Much stronger.

So, walk acceleration is for going into her fast walk faster and abuse her tilts. Air speed for chasing around better. A lot more power all around for more kill options other than Foward Smash/high % aerial offstage. Improved speed in some attacks to make up for no tippers.

Voting . Also, I don't want to play mod or boss, please be clear about your opinions people.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I wish she was more than just Marth 0.5. Right now the only reason you'd have to choose Lucina over Marth is if you're just picking up the character, and while it is nice to have an easier character show you the ropes, it's unnecessary thereafter. There are definitely things that can be done to Lucina to give her her own identity.

Voting Jigglypuff.

 

[Zerp]

I agree with the general consensus that Lucina should get more things to set her apart from Marth, although I'd be slightly cautious buffing her since I feel like she's a bit stronger than most people give her credit for, I still think she deserves quite a few buffs. Minor nitpick but, I'd like to see her sword stop being a few pixels smaller than Marth's, aside from that, she could use something to mix up her playstyle a bit, although, I'm not really certain what. She is though, fortunately for her, pretty likely to recieve further changes if there's another patch given how she's gotten buffs before and that she's from FE, so she's got hope at least.

Here's Lucina's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1yAKw5gm29xw9_tpEL5_WrW1pks-rS5q8i-pccK8e75o/viewanalytics
Here's Jigglypuff's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Du3zH9nVdvr0p6Ji1
<-- You can vote for any of these characters that may or may not have singing talent.

I vote for .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Though Jigglypuff is clearly the best character in the game, she could still do with some buffs. These are copied and pasted from another thread:

Forward tilt - BKB increased: 8 -> 16
Up tilt - KBG decreased: 120 -> 90, hitbox size increased.
Up smash - active frames changed: 16-19 -> 13-16. Upper body invincibility on frames 13 - 16. FAF: 46 -> 31.
Down smash - damage increased: 11% -> 14%, startup decreased by 3 frames: frame 14 -> frame 11.

Back air - hitbox active: 12-13 -> 8-9.
Down air - landing lag: 30 - 15, final hit now meteor smashes aerial opponents weakly.
Up air - startup decreased: frame 9 -> frame 7, landing lag decreased: 15 -> 10.

Forward throw - angle lowered to semi-spike trajectory.
Down throw - damage decreased: 4%, 6% -> 3%, 4%. Knockback: 45 base, 100 growth -> 40 base, 80 growth.
Back throw - angle lowered.
Up throw - knockback: 30 base, 110 growth -> 70 base, 120 growth.

Rollout: No longer causes helplessness after connecting.
Pound: FAF: 46 -> 40.
Rest: Forces Star KO.
Sing: I don't even know how to fix this move.

Voting Mario.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is many people's choice for worst character in the game, and it's easy to see why: She has very little range on her attacks, which makes the neutral game hard. To worsen the neutral game, her "good aerial game" is quite mediocre, with no safe options and quite a bit of lag at times. Her ground game is somehow even worse, with low run speed, big lag without much power, and a terrible grab and throws. Her only move that is remarkable is Rest, which still has a small hitbox and so much ending lag that you can get punished for landing the move. She quite clearly needs a ton of improvements:

+Increase range on all moves involving feet/legs by 5-10%.
+Increase her weight (68 --> 71) so she's still the lightest, but not by as much.
+Increase walk speed (0.7 --> 0.75) and run speed (1.155 --> 1.25) so her ground game is usable.
+Decrease end lag on D-tilt (31 --> 28) so she has an okay poking option.
+Decrease lag on smash attacks (2 frames less startup and 3 frames less endlag) so their decent power can actually be used.
---->F-smash: Active frames 16-19,20-24 --> 14-17,18-22 // FAF 50 --> 45
---->U-smash: Active frames 16-19 --> 14-17 // FAF 46 --> 41
---->D-smash: Active frames (& leg invincibility) 14-15 --> 12-13 // FAF 49 --> 44
+Make U-throw not weight dependent, and decrease its KBG (110 --> 40) and endlag (by a couple of frames). This would give pretty good combo ability to one of her throws.
+Increase KBG of F-throw (100 --> 130) so she has a viable kill throw.
+Decrease endlag of U-air (FAF 45 --> 38) and D-air (FAF 53 --> 46) so she actually has quite good aerial game like she should.
+Make Rollout not put Jigglypuff in a "helpless" state if she lands it in the air (FAF N/A --> 74 (On hit))
+Make Sing actually usable (FAF 180 --> 135 // active frames 29-33,73-77,122-134 --> 22-26,55-59,92-104).
+Make Rest always star/screen KO, so it is never punishable if you land a kill with it.


Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

is many people's choice for worst character in the game, and it's easy to see why: She has very little range on her attacks, which makes the neutral game hard. To worsen the neutral game, her "good aerial game" is quite mediocre, with no safe options and quite a bit of lag at times. Her ground game is somehow even worse, with low run speed, big lag without much power, and a terrible grab and throws. Her only move that is remarkable is Rest, which still has a small hitbox and so much ending lag that you can get punished for landing the move. She quite clearly needs a ton of improvements:

+Increase range on all moves involving feet/legs by 5-10%.
+Increase her weight (68 --> 71) so she's still the lightest, but not by as much.
+Increase walk speed (0.7 --> 0.75) and run speed (1.155 --> 1.25) so her ground game is usable.
+Decrease end lag on D-tilt (31 --> 28) so she has an okay poking option.
+Decrease lag on smash attacks (2 frames less startup and 3 frames less endlag) so their decent power can actually be used.
---->F-smash: Active frames 16-19,20-24 --> 14-17,18-22 // FAF 50 --> 45
---->U-smash: Active frames 16-19 --> 14-17 // FAF 46 --> 41
---->D-smash: Active frames (& leg invincibility) 14-15 --> 12-13 // FAF 49 --> 44)
+Make U-throw not weight dependent, and decrease its KBG (110 --> 40) and endlag (by a couple of frames). This would give pretty good combo ability to one of her throws.
+Increase KBG of F-throw (100 --> 130) so she has a viable kill throw.
+Decrease endlag of U-air (FAF 45 --> 38) and D-air (FAF 53 --> 46) so she actually has above par aerial game like she should.
+Make Rollout not put Jigglypuff in a "helpless" state if she lands it in the air (FAF N/A --> 74 (On hit))
+Make Sing actually usable (FAF 180 --> 135 // active frames 29-33,73-77,122-134 --> 22-26,55-59,92-104).
+Make Rest always star/screen KO, so it is never punishable if you land a kill with it.


Voting .

Her aerial game actually is good. All of her aerials are safe on shield except for forward air.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Her aerial game actually is good. All of her aerials are safe on shield except for forward air.

Yeah, that's why I'm improving her aerials that are laggy so that all of her aerials are good like they should be for an air fighter.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

An air speed buff may also be helpful to Jigglypuff's air game, preferably to 1.35.

 

[Furret24]

Yeah, that's why I'm improving her aerials that are laggy so that all of her aerials are good like they should be for an air fighter.

"Laggy aerials". So laggy, that even the one with the most ending lag has less than Sheik's fair. :V

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

View attachment 109899
"Laggy aerials". So laggy, that even the one with the most ending lag has less than Sheik's fair. :V

No, Sheik's Fair FAF is 35, which is less than all of Jiggs'. The animation technically lasts longer, but the most important part is when you can act out of it, which is quicker for Sheik Fair than any of Jiggs' aerials.

 

[Wintermelon43]

View attachment 109899
"Laggy aerials". So laggy, that even the one with the most ending lag has less than Sheik's fair. :V

While I do agree that her aierals aren't laggy, Sheik's forward air actually is interuptible earlier than it's FAF. This is shown in a Beefy Smash Doods video (Or whoever it was, I forget)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

While I do agree that her aierals aren't laggy, Sheik's forward air actually is interuptible earlier than it's FAF. This is shown in a Beefy Smash Doods video (Or whoever it was, I forget)

As a correction, the FAF, or "first active frame", IS the frame where it's interruptible. IIRC her Fair technically ends around frame 100.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Anyway, Jigglypuff defitenly needs buffs, simply no doubt about it. She is an easy bottom 10 (Jiggly is the only person to not think this) and many put her as the worst. I think one good buff would be a kill throw. Her throws are all bad, and up throw is intended to be a kill throw, and yet doesn't KO Bowser at 300% on 3DS FD (I tested this a few days ago). A better combo throw with forward or down throw would be useful too. Rest should always star or screen KO (Although this will probably never happen even in mods) and perhaps KO a little earlier. Her smashes should also be less laggy and have a little more knockback (her Forward Smash litertatly has three frames where she starts kicking, but then on frame 4 she goes back to her original start posisten and restarts the kick). That obvisualy isn't ALL she needs, but I don't feel like getting into too much detail about her on here.

Also L1N3R1D3R A modder once gave Jigglypuff a combo up throw, less endlag on up air, and more knockback on rest, and it gave her a 0-to-death with up throw-up air-up air-rest. Be careful with buff ideas.

Edit:Oh yea, and I vote for

 

[Zerp]

At this point, I don't care what they give her, as long as they give her something, although I'm almost certain they won't ever give her buffs, or nerfs, or any sort of attention. Personally though, if I had to choose one thing to give Jigglypuff, it would be to give her follow ups off of grab, stuff that could kill at like 50-60 or so, she struggles against shield so much that she really needs to give her opponent a reason not to use it. Other than that though, my biggest peeve is all the unnecessary nerfs she received from Brawl to Sm4sh, like why were those necessary? She wouldn't even be good with those undone, but nooooo, she had to be nerfed for uh, seemingly no reason at all?

Also, while I do think she's the worst character in the game, I don't think she needs as many changes as say, Zelda, to become viable, she's undertuned but her design isn't fundamentally flawed or anything, if they actually tried to fix her she could potentially end up good, but we all know they won't.

Here's Jigglypuff's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NWz-xYh2l6ooqaPzha90eSjVHQlQlub1q4jBSPCYQO8/viewanalytics
and here's Mario's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Hxhy91Aud8Z4xPBs2
<-- You can vote for any of these characters that wish they were Mario and could sell 500 million+ copies.
Edit: Actually, scratch that, we'll vote tomorrow after we do Duck Hunt.

 

[Wintermelon43]

@Sakurai You weren't allowed to vote

I know it's you because of "Do not Change"

(Yes I am joking)

btw Zero Soul 1 person voted for Mario but 2 people voted for Duck Hunt........

 

[Zerp]

@Sakurai
btw Zero Soul 1 person voted for Mario but 2 people voted for Duck Hunt........

Oh, um, I actually was working on the poll by the time you edited your post and didn't notice it afterwards until now, very sorry about that. Well, anyways, since we already started the poll for Mario today, we'll just do Duck Hunt tomorrow, I think that'd be fair.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mario always wins.

Anyway, Mario (in a sharp contrast from Jigglypuff, my other main) is very clearly one of the best characters in the game, and as such needs no buffs. But they do need to fix his down air so that you can't air dodge or hit Mario out of it, because that's bull****. I also wouldn't mind them toning down his up smash in return for a better down smash, because his current one is bad. I'd ask for a recovery buff, but that's pushing it.

I suppose there's no need to vote for anyone.

Edit: Also, Zerp , you think Jigglypuff's the worst? Worse than Zelda?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

If anything, actually needs D-air to be redone, both buffed and nerfed. I agree that you shouldn't be able to escape it with an airdodge, but the high knockback and low endlag it has currently is ridiculous. Technically, the change I want to it is:

~D-air hit 5: Active frame 25 --> 22 (it hits 3 frames earlier for connecting, but thus has 3 more frames endlag), KBG 100 --> 70

Otherwise, Mario is fine.


We're doing tomorrow, so voting for for later.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Edit: Also, Zerp , you think Jigglypuff's the worst? Worse than Zelda?

I hate when people think this. Jigglypuff is defitenly better than Zelda

Also, for Mario, do NOTHING. He's good the way he is now.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If anything, actually needs D-air to be redone, both buffed and nerfed. I agree that you shouldn't be able to escape it with an airdodge, but the high knockback and low endlag it has currently is ridiculous. Technically, the change I want to it is:

~D-air hit 5: Active frame 25 --> 22 (it hits 3 frames earlier for connecting, but thus has 3 more frames endlag), KBG 100 --> 70

Otherwise, Mario is fine.


We're doing tomorrow, so voting for for later.

"High knockback" is pushing it. You'd be lucky to kill with it at 120%. With Rage.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I hate when people think this. Jigglypuff is defitenly better than Zelda

Also, for Mario, do NOTHING. He's good the way he is now.

It doesn't matter who is worse, all that matters is that we find ways to make them better.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

"High knockback" is pushing it. You'd be lucky to kill with it at 120%. With Rage.

It already has good damage for a final hit of a multi-hit move (5%), great BKB (80), and almost no lag as is, and you're suggesting that it connects to itself more reliably. I'm pretty sure nerfing its power is reasonable given how good it is ATM. Have you seen this?

 

[MarioMeteor]

It already has good damage for a final hit of a multi-hit move (5%), great BKB (80), and almost no lag as is, and you're suggesting that it connects to itself more reliably. I'm pretty sure nerfing its power is reasonable given how good it is ATM. Have you seen this?

I'm suggesting a quality of life change that shouldn't even be necessary in the first place. The move isn't strong enough to warrant a nerf, it's not like it's one of Mario's primary KO options. If anything I would think you'd be complaining about his up smash, a move that actually warrants a complaint or two.

 

[Furret24]

No, Sheik's Fair FAF is 35, which is less than all of Jiggs'. The animation technically lasts longer, but the most important part is when you can act out of it, which is quicker for Sheik Fair than any of Jiggs' aerials.

I think it's worth mentioning that I meant in terms of ending lag in the move. Sheik's fair may be interruptible on frame 35, but the last hitbox on the move is frame 7, giving opponents 28 frames to punish if she doesn't land. Jigglypuff's laggiest aerial in aerial ending lag is her dair, which has 27 frames of vulnerability after the last hitbox if she doesn't land.

Even so, four of her aerials autocancel in a shorthop, four of them start up faster than frame 10, four of them have a large active frame window. While her aerials aren't Sheik's fair, they certainly aren't laggy (except maybe dair if you stretch it). Especially relative to the rest of the cast.


As far as Mario is concerned, I think he's fine as is. Though, I wouldn't mind up smash having a little more cooldown.

 

[Green Zelda]

Like nearly everyone else, I'm fine with , but since some view his up smash as a bit overtuned, maybe they could lower the amount of damage slightly, so it kills a bit later.

 

[L9999]

While 's everything makes him annoying (spam2win Up Smash, mobility, grab game, rage jank, frame data, hard to gimp), I wouldn't change him.

guess I'll vote .

 

[Zerp]

Edit: Also, Zerp , you think Jigglypuff's the worst? Worse than Zelda?

Yeah, I think she's currently the worst character in the game (Well, if we're not counting 1111 Brawler that is). I want to say she's not and I think for a long time she wasn't the worst, I just really can't see her being anywhere else anymore, the power creep was too much for her to keep up with in my opinion.

Anyways, about Mario, I think he's pretty much fine and I'd rather he not get nerfed, although I would not be upset if Up-Smash was toned down a little.
Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1omEKKFzANAQNcbcM4DeXY-lYAe3mBCvExfRpAFtvQzo/viewanalytics
Here's the Duck Hunt Duo's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Yd1FC2dx6GGmceak2
<-- You can vote for any of these characters that don't quack, or at least I HOPE they don't quack.
I'll vote for .
Edit: Just realized there were 2 Meta Knights for some reason, I can't believe it took me this long to notice them lol.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While it may not help deal with Duck Hunt's predictable recovery all that much, I think decreasing the duo's falling speed could at least enable them to gain more horizontal distance in the air before they reach the stage ledge.

On my end, I decreased Duck Hunt's falling speed from 1.65, to 1.55 (the same as Pikachu's falling speed).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Duck Hunt is defitenly underrated, I think he's in low mid. However, I still think he needs buffs, since I think his flWs shoudn't be as bad as they are. And his smashes should connect.

I vote for , the penguin who saved the world from the evil Subspace Emissary and was nerfed to bottom tier in return for it.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Edit: Just realized there were 2 Meta Knights for some reason, I can't believe it took me this long to notice them lol.

I don't know how I missed that but you got it, normally I'm the one who picks up on that.

Anyway, really needs some fixes. He can do a lot, but some of his tools are fundamentally broken to the point of fixing:

+F-tilt (FAF 32 --> 29), U-tilt (FAF 34 --> 31), F-smash (AF 17-18,23-24,29-30 --> 14-15,20-21,26-29 // FAF 67 --> 60), Trick Shot (AF 16- --> 14- // FAF 46 --> 41), and Clay Shooting (17- --> 15-, FAF 66 --> 60) less laggy.
+Angle for hits 1 & 2 of F-smash (5 --> 10) and D-smash (165 --> 160) increased, SDI multiplier of hits 1 & 2 of all smashes decreased, and hitbox size of all smashes increased (more consistent).
+D-throw not weight dependent, and end lag decreased.
+KBG of U-throw increased (80 --> 95).
+D-air made a bit quicker and more powerful (AF 14,20 --> 12,18 // FAF 60 --> 55 // BKB 10 --> 20 // KBG 80/90 --> 100/110).
+Duck Jump travels significantly faster and goes a bit farther.
+Wild Gunman is more resistant (health 5-6% --> 9-10%).

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yeah, I think she's currently the worst character in the game (Well, if we're not counting 1111 Brawler that is). I want to say she's not and I think for a long time she wasn't the worst, I just really can't see her being anywhere else anymore, the power creep was too much for her to keep up with in my opinion.

Anyways, about Mario, I think he's pretty much fine and I'd rather he not get nerfed, although I would not be upset if Up-Smash was toned down a little.
Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1omEKKFzANAQNcbcM4DeXY-lYAe3mBCvExfRpAFtvQzo/viewanalytics
Here's the Duck Hunt Duo's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Yd1FC2dx6GGmceak2
<-- You can vote for any of these characters that don't quack, or at least I HOPE they don't quack.
I'll vote for .
Edit: Just realized there were 2 Meta Knights for some reason, I can't believe it took me this long to notice them lol.

I've never viewed her as the worst. I at least think she's better than Dedede, Zelda, Palutena, Ganondorf, and Bowser Jr. It's not much better, but it's better than dead last.