The Unmentionable Match-Ups. [Week 2: Link]

[-Ran]

There are countless match ups that we've never bothered with. Week by week, we shall climb the Tier List as we look at the match ups that we might stumble upon due to the rarity that we see them.

Week 2: Link​

Week 1: Ganondorf​

Ganon at his sexiest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=445GeDpQ1B0

[Match up notes to be written. ] Posts 5 to 39

 

[-Ran]

-Reserved.-

 

[-Ran]

-Reserved x2.-

 

[Nic64]

That video is like 60% inui getting ***** by Ganondorf, best thing I've seen today

:actual post coming soon:

 

[-Ran]

The key to this match up is that poor Ganondorf really has only one approach, and that's power shielding while rumbling forwards on the ground. He has nothing in his arsenal of attacks that can compete with the range of F-Tilt so his entire game is a matter of baiting your attacks. Even still, if he manages to power shield the first hit of your spaced F-tilt, his moves are so incredibly limited in range and start up that there is very little that he is capable of actually threatening with. You should mostly be able to remain at a distance, utilizing your superior Tilt range, and grenade game to keep Ganon from becoming a semblance of danger.

Much like most match ups, you don't want to be directly above Ganon. His Uair is incredible, and his nair isn't too shabby either. He can inflict incredible amounts of damage in a short period of time with his Uair [13% damage and kills fresh at 131% on less manly characters]. However, he is limited by his slow speed, and lack of aerial momentum control in his ability to chase after Snake. A well performed B-reversal is almost all you need to escape Ganon's aerial assault, unless he has a jump to burn to catch you.

 

[Berserker.]

Yay my second main :3

I don't know anything good for Ganondorf though. At Ganondorf's gerudo, Snake is one of the people who can only get followed up with only 1 move which is Ganon's jab which kills Snake at probably 180% fresh but I'm not sure if Snake uses DI.

Just camp him, your camping can force Ganondorf to use his limited approach and if we put mines and C4s around the whole stage then Ganondorf has to worry about a lot of things. Don't take Ganon to delfino or any small place IMO. Most of Ganondorf's moves have massive lag afterwards and at the start so it's easy to see it coming and easy to punish unless your talking about d-tilt, u-air or ACed d-air.

Camp him, mix-ups and mindgames should work or even more. But Ganondorf can actually be a threat to Snake in some ways such as gimping Snake with D-air or if you aren't careful about Ganondorf's strong attacks.

There was a thing I was suppose to say about u-air but Ran went first x_x

 

[napZzz]

this is a matchup I actually play alot because theres a really good ganon main I play with alot and team with. ganon+snake is 2rape.

I'll edit some matchup knowledge into this post in a bit, too lazy right now.

 

[Kofu]

I'm not particularly experienced in the matchup, but I'm pretty sure that Ganon's DTilt is rather even in range to your FTilt, especially because you stick your hurtbox out during it.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

lemme state the obvious, Ganon is horribad, the only reason why any1 loses to him in tourneys cuz they dont care enough to learn the matchup.

 

[TP]

If you try to C4 recover too near the stage, Ganon can just start an Utilt and the wind will act like a ceiling and send you down to your death. Incredibly satisfying.

 

[King of Sack]

Ganon+snake is 2rape.

I have 2 replays proving this...

 

[professor mgw]

Fighting ganon: Ganondorf has to be within range in order to hit you. Properly spacing your granades and your f-tilt will defenetly keep him on his toes. Make sure you don't get hit by obvious hits, considering the fact that ganon is really powerful and will come back easily if you do. D-grab tech chasing can also be pretty useful in this match-up. When you get ganon off the stage, edgeguard like crazy! Ganon's recovery sucks so grab onto that edge after he double jumps, your invincibility frames will keep u safe gerudo kills while hanging on the ledge. That's my summary for this Match-up, it isn't really that hard, play smart and you should stay safe.

My ratio 60:40 Snakes favor

 

[Bizkit047]

It's a ridiculous easy matchup. The only threat really is getting spiked, and that shouldn't happen unless the Snake recovers stupid and low. If low recovering cuz of a mistake, C4 to be safe. Course there's the side B ganoncide too. But again, don't be stupid. And then there's the he can KO you at 80% with fresh Fsmash, but again...don't be stupid. That's the matchup. Don't be stupid, and you win.

 

[Black_Heretic]

Just gonna say that if he chokes when you're on your upBing and hits the cypher, you have to c4, watch out for that

and his Down tilt has similar range to our ftilt, watch that.

Oh, one last thing, he can chase you when recovering high with his super jump

just a few things to keep an eye out for

 

[-Ran]

Questions we need to answer.

Can Ganon punish our F-Tilt if he power shields the first hit? What about the second hit?
What about our up Tilt?

 

[professor mgw]

Q1: Ganondorf will not be able 2 punish because (1) he's to slow and (2) his lack of range. Although if the F-tilt was not spaced correctly it is possible that that he can react to the first f-tilt by jabbing after he powershields it.

Q2: Snakes Up-tilt has more of a chance of being punished due to the small amount of lag at the end. If not spaced correctly ganon will be able to punish us with a jab or even a d-tilt at times if powershielded. Its obvious then we need 2 be a bit more careful about spacing our Up-tilt.

USEFULNESS OF MOVES IN THIS MATCH-UP[out of 5]:

*Jab 3/5
*F-tilt 5/5
*D-tilt 2/5
*Up-tilt 4/5
*F-smash 3/5 [Keep this as a surprise attack, due to ganondorf's predictable recovery and heavy weight, it isn'tTO hard to get this, and it will defenetly change the tide of the battle, use it wisely!]
*Up-smash 5/5
*D-smash 4/5
*N-air 3/5
*U-air 3/5
*D-air 2/5
*B-air 5/5
*F-air 2/5 [good for surprised metor smashes(spike), that's pretty much it. In other other case there's a really good chance that's there's a better move to use than f-air
*Netural-B 5/5
*Side-B 2/5
*Down-B 4/5
*Up-B 5/5

~I reccomend not using moves with 2/5 and down in competitive gameplay.

 

[Corrupted]

Eh ganon can dash attack OoS vs snake 2nd hit ftilt.

 

[professor mgw]

Overall ganondorf is very outwitted and outmatched by snakes tactics.

 

[phi1ny3]

iirc Ganon's Dash attack is a pretty good killer/punisher if fresh.

 

[Superspright]

Ganon will choke snakes all day. Choke to pimp slap. Also, you guys are forgetting he can steal your cypher with the gerudo and still recover. If you DO c4 recover, pray he doesn't jump back to utilt. But a good snake will tech the stage and air-dodge back on, and then maybe roll back or start pounding gdorf.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I don't see how Ganondorf can deal with simple nade placement and ftilt spacing. Clearly one of Snake's easiest matchups, if not the easiest.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

If you need help or need to read a guide on how to beat ganon with Snake, you should quit smash right now.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

If you need help or need to read a guide on how to beat ganon with Snake, you should quit smash right now.

Please play Koskinator and lose. =D

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I hope you realize that Snake's camping completely destroys Ganon to the point where it's not even funny. If I had to give this joke of a match-up a ratio, it'd be around 85:15 Snake.

And to answer your statement, Kosk is just really good with his character, I pretty much don't even play this game anymore. And I don't even think Kosk plays Smash anymore.

 

[Superspright]

I am not worried about Snake's nades. I am worried about his C4, utilt, and mortars. The nades are a joke. Any Ganon worth his salt will be able to SHAD through explosions, and if he tries to drop grenades around a Ganon can simply ADCT them away.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I think you should play a better char if you actually want to play competitively, personally against Ganons I CP Falcon.

 

[Berserker.]

Use meta knight :O

 

[Turbo Ether]

I am not worried about Snake's nades. I am worried about his C4, utilt, and mortars. The nades are a joke. Any Ganon worth his salt will be able to SHAD through explosions, and if he tries to drop grenades around a Ganon can simply ADCT them away.

Sure. SHAD through a nade explosion and get punished for it. Doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Camp with nades, space with ftilt. Be wary of standing too close to the ledge > ganoncide. Didn't know about that ganon utilt ceiling thing, but snakes should be recovering high anyway. Ganon has a strange super jump, as Syx said, but I'm not sure how it'll play into chasing us in the air - some b-reversals should keep us safe. Not really sure what to say besides the obvious - never played a competitive ganon.

Edit: Funny pic of ganon in that Phoenix Wright(?) thing. I don't know what the hell the phoenix reference is, but I see it around on the internet a lot. Is it a game or something? Also, don't answer this redundant question, keep the discussion on track.

 

[Superspright]

Sure. SHAD through a nade explosion and get punished for it. Doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.

Ganon's SHAD is weird--and if he buffers a spotdodge there is like 1-2 frames of vincibility. It's not that easy to grenade camp Ganon. Good Ganons just do not get projectile camped. They get out prioritized and outplayed overall, but projectiles are usually the first thing that any Ganon has to learn how to deal with--by PSing everything, or dodging it, etc.

I am seriously more concerned with the mortars. Grenades explode in 3 seconds. If it isn't cooked all the way it can be thrown right back with an ADCT. If it is cooked, then you can merely time it and spot-dodge, or PS it if you're REALLY good.

If grenades weren't so predictable then I'd say they are dangerous for Ganon. But, they go off reliably, and thus all they can be used for is to space and approaches--I just do not feel that grenades will be racking your damage. They will be a big nuisance though. This matchup is screwed though--only with amazing prediction can a Ganon win. But that's the only way it is possible.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Ganon's SHAD is weird--and if he buffers a spotdodge there is like 1-2 frames of vincibility. It's not that easy to grenade camp Ganon. Good Ganons just do not get projectile camped. They get out prioritized and outplayed overall, but projectiles are usually the first thing that any Ganon has to learn how to deal with--by PSing everything, or dodging it, etc.

I am seriously more concerned with the mortars. Grenades explode in 3 seconds. If it isn't cooked all the way it can be thrown right back with an ADCT. If it is cooked, then you can merely time it and spot-dodge, or PS it if you're REALLY good.

If grenades weren't so predictable then I'd say they are dangerous for Ganon. But, they go off reliably, and thus all they can be used for is to space and approaches--I just do not feel that grenades will be racking your damage. They will be a big nuisance though. This matchup is screwed though--only with amazing prediction can a Ganon win. But that's the only way it is possible.

The point of the nade camping is primarily to limit Ganon's already poor methods of approach. Damage is a secondary benefit. And of course it is to be assumed that Snake will mix up the timing and placement of his grenades. Some cooked, some partially cooked, some not cooked at all. Some tossed, some dropped.

Snake's various grenade handling options, mixed with C4 and Mortars will wall Ganon effectively. Even if Ganon manages to get in, Snake has a much better close-quarters moveset anyway. Snake's Ftilt is arguably better than Ganon's whole moveset. This matchup is clearly at least 7/3 in Snake's favor. I'd personally lean closer to 8/2.

 

[Superspright]

Pretty much what I'm saying. But, Ganon can win. But the snake has to get predicted completely. I've beaten snakes before, but usually that only flies for a round or two--then I get pounded into the ground.

With ADCT I feel that Snake's grenade game is not as good as people think.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

The only reason Ganon can win against Snake is if your alot better than your opponent. He just gets camped too hard, and he's forced to make the 1st move, and he'll just get punished for them because of how not safe these moves are.

 

[-Ran]

I'll be writing the summary. Please leave honest match up ratios, and then I'll create one based off of all the information that has been written. This seems to be a near unwinnable match up for Ganon if Snake knows the match up and limitations of the character.

 

[Berserker.]

I think it's 80:20 or worst. Ganondorf can't do anything with Snake's camping anyway.

 

[professor mgw]

My ratio:

75:25 -snakes favor.
Ganon is pretty messed up here......

 

[smashkng]

Really, really hard for Ganon, but if he can get close (which is not impossible, but hard to get in before taking a bunch of hits) and read like a book, it's definitely not 95/5 as Ganon boards has. At least he can get trouble to Snake in the air, and murder spike Snake from Cypher (or stealing Cypher with aerial Gerudo or up b, leaving Snake without jumps). Unlike Falcon matchup, spamming the jab holding isn't a good idea, because Ganon has moves (like fsmash) that beats it. Also Snake has grab release chain grab on him, which can lead to utilt if he doesn't remove the up b landing lag glitch, but fortunately for Ganon he has good rolls and a good get up attack, minimizing a bit the dthrow tech-chase. I don't know if Snake can be safe at gimping with bair, but if he is then he can definitely gimp Ganon. Ganon usually gets punished at higher percents for landing up b grab, but Snake is exception: Snake has nothing to punish it because his aerials are simply too slow.

Grenades and tilts makes him hard to get close, but it's not impossible.

75/25 or 80/20 Snake.

 

[.AC.]

the matchup is 10-0 or 9-1.

if snake crouches allmost all of ganon's attacks go over snake, and snake can shield the rest on reaction.its really simple.

there is a vid somewhere on youtube that shows this, the point being its an imposible matchup for ganon.

 

[smashkng]

Dtilt still hits, it has incredible range and is faster than reaction. And it puts Snake in the air and can juggle at lower percents (deals 12% fresh). It's still winnable as Snake's crouch isn't lagless.

EDIT: average human reaction frames are 12 frames, so 10 frames is too fast for a human to react.

 

[-Ran]

Alright, I'll post the match up description sometime tomorrow. Now we're on to Link.