• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Uniqueness Tier List: Captain Falcon, Robin, Lucina, Shulk, and Meta-Knight

Status
Not open for further replies.

Louie G.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
9,779
Location
Rhythm Heaven
Alright, let's end the day now.

It looks like we have a brand new champion of the tiers! Lip was received extremely well, most people recommending her as S Tier! Who am I to disagree, with @ FirstBlade FirstBlade and @Young Horsetail's ideas Lip has the potential to become one of the most unique characters in Smash history, not being similar to one character.

DHD did well too, albeit not as great as Lip. DHD's third wall moveset recommended by @ Arcadenik Arcadenik was really interesting, and the idea of a puppet character not unlike Rosalina is intriguing, but not incredibly unique. So DHD is going in low A Tier.

Today we will discuss Sheriff and Sukapon.

Sheriff is a possible "sprite" character, being the first fighter to be 8-Bit! But what can his pixelated gun bring to the table?

Sukapon has no arms or legs, but he's had experience in a fighting game before. But what would make him stand out?
 
Last edited:

Cpt.

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
1,250
Location
The New World
It's certainly an interesting concept, and has sparked my interest towards the character.
There are other retros I'd like to see first, but I'd be happy to see DHD get in Smash 4 as an assist and slowly increase in popularity to be playable eventually.
Haha yeah I just want to see Takamaru!

Here is a link to Sukapon's Wiki Page in case people (like me) haven't heard of it before.

 

BridgesWithTurtles

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
2,175
Location
The long road to nowhere
3DS FC
3523-2059-7939
A Case for Sheriff



Sheriff is a very underrated choice for a new retro, historical, "WTF", or whatever label you prefer, combatant. His game was released in 1979, predating all series represented with playable characters so far. As a very early, simplistic arcade game, there isn't much to pull from in terms of moveset variety. However, I'm willing to make the case that lack of variety can actually make Sheriff unique, as he'd be so reliant on the small handful of abilities he has that he'd be forced to make due with what he has, which can open up a lot of room for creativity, as well as offer him the chance to be unique as a "super minimalist" fighter.

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Very little. This can actually work in his favor, however. If Sheriff is brought into Smash as an explicitly historical character, rendered either as a sprite or as I'd prefer, in 3D pixel art, then of course, what makes more sense than a minimalist, archaic moveset to go along with him? Sheriff's abilities are not so limited as to make him a one-trick pony, however. His most basic ability is his gun, which, if it remains pixelated, is literally just 5 white squares assembled in an L-shape, with equally unrealistic bullets, so there's no need to worry about his firearm being deemed too realistic. The original arcade game from which Sheriff hails is notable for its experimental control scheme (Nintendo was pushing boundaries even all the way back then), which features an input delay allowing for Sheriff to shoot in one direction while moving in another.

In the title screen of the game, Sheriff is seen riding a steed. This could be worked into the moveset as a mount that Sheriff can use to ram into enemies with. One gameplay feature, flying vultures which can be shot for bonus points, can be adapted as a recovery. It is possible to use score counters as a shield or for projectile absorption of some kind. The majority of Sheriff's other moves can make use of his pistol, whether to shoot bullets or short-ranged blasts, or use for whipping. It'd also be possible to play up Sheriff's Western influences and allow him to use his pistol in more tactical ways, such as to threaten enemies by pointing it forward and causing anyone in close range to put their hands up in fear and/or pace forward, or by using a quick-draw move as a sort of counter.

2. Are their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
Yes, actually. Sheriff's pistol is unlike any other projectile in the game, as if his moveset is true to his origins, he'd be able to shoot in any direction while also moving. No other character has a projectile with this extent of utility.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
It would really depend on what kind of playstyle Sheriff is given. If he's rendered as a 2D sprite and makes use of a lot of props, then see section 3a.

If rendered in 3D pixel art/given a redesign and/or or given more focus on his projectiles, then he'd be much more unique. I prefer the idea of a 3D Sheriff that's still made of blocks (like this) because that'd play up his archaic nature and make him stand out, while also still "translating" him into the 3D realm, as has been done with other sprite-based characters like Ness. Anyway, a mobile projectile user with the ability to fire in any direction is something we haven't really seen. Extending that concept to include a playstyle based on clever spacing through the use of moves like a "reach for the sky" gun threat would help give the character more unique definition and identity as a fighter. We've never seen a Western-influenced character in the series before, and while Dillon fits the same sort of mold, he doesn't use traditional cowboy techniques, like horse-riding or pistol-toting. In Sheriff, a lot of emphasis is placed on precise aim with the pistol in order to kill enemies, since the bullets are so thin. Likewise, Western cowboys are infamous for their sharpshooting skills. Sheriff could serve the role of a sharpshooter: a fighter heavily focused on a singular projectile with a simple function but a large amount of aim and control. He could introduce a new mechanic, exclusive to him, that determines damage done to an enemy based on where they are shot; this would be possible due to how thin his bullets are. While body types in Smash are a little too diverse to make this a mechanic that would be equally applicable on a universal level, it could still work against every character to some degree. The fact that some would be affected more than others would simply provide for more interesting match-ups for Sheriff players. It would also require the player to understand character hurtboxes more than they would when playing other characters, and Sheriff's own hurtbox, easily defined by his block-by-block shape, would play up this aspect of the playstyle.

Assuming Sheriff can make use of the horse and vulture (horse for Side Special and vulture for Up Special, for example), he could be able to use his Neutral Special pistol to shoot while moving, giving him a versatile approach and retreat game. As he'd likely be slow and somewhat heavy/large, this would make for an interesting combination in a slow/heavyweight character with poor melee strength but an excellent spacing and projectile game. He'd be over-reliant on his pistol, but this sort of minimalism would actually make him unique. This emphasis on long-range sharpshooting and the ability to move in many different ways while shooting would give Sheriff a "Mexican standoff/Western duel" sort of playstyle that would be very in-character, as well as highly unique, while still being simple, which is another trait that this archaic character would want to deliberately play up. Simplicity in movement would also result in many of his moves being difficult to discern from one another, and it'd be difficult for opponents to tell exactly when hitbox frames become active, lending further depth to a possible "quick draw/high stakes/forced guessing" playstyle.

3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on its own?
If Sheriff takes a more "sprite-based, Game & Watch" approach, then he wouldn't be nearly as unique as he could be, but he'd still be different from G&W in his focus on long-range combat, and he'd probably be much slower and weaker, as well as heavier. Entirely different, stat-wise.

He's also somewhat similar to Mega Man, as they both rely heavily on shooting, but Sheriff could have much more melee attacks due to the ability to pistol whip.

4. Do the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
I'd say so. The pistol could be simple but very unique and technical in application. While most of his other moves wouldn't be that different from the norm, the overall image they'd convey, that of a very dated character from the earliest days of video games, would be pretty entertaining and would provide a nice clash with the more modern characters in the cast.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Sheriff would stick out like a sore thumb, and in a good way. This is one of the reasons I'd prefer he not be given a redesign. Either keep him as a sprite or model the sprite in 3D. This would clearly and loudly make the statement that Sheriff is a historical character, meant to represent Nintendo's early days in the arcades, back when they were a third-party developer. Keeping Sheriff in block form would allow him to ooze personality in his every movement. Every action he'd perform would resemble early sprite movement. Instead of having a complex series of jump frames, for example, he'd simply rise off of the ground without so much as bending his knees. When roll dodging, his entire body would just spin 360 degrees along the ground. When tumbling in the air, the same sort of animation would happen: simple rotation with no signs of complex movement or bodily reaction. Because he'd be rendered as a 1-to-1 replica of his original sprite, the animations he did have in his source game could easily be recreated in Smash. When in his prone state, for example, he'd mimic his "shot down" pose from the original game. It may seem boring that Sheriff would have so little personality, but that lack of personality would exude so much retro goodness that it'd be hard not to find it a fresh new direction for a Smash character. It's never really been done before, except for G&W, but he shows plenty of reaction through frame-by-frame motions, whereas Sheriff would convey limited emotion through basic, pre-NES sprite motion.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Of course. In fact, Sheriff's visual uniqueness would basically define the character. They go hand-in-hand.

While he doesn't have enough diverse options to give him a super-crazy, complicated moveset, playing Sheriff's simplicity to his advantage can create a character that is potentially unique enough in terms of gameplay as to be different from everyone else, while also giving off a very unique aesthetic vibe that no other plausible character can really offer.

Grade: A
 
Last edited:

ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
2,077
3DS FC
4527-8092-0589
Sheriff: C- Tier
I understand that a sprite is different from the other characters, but it seems more like stealing G&W's thunder. Despite not actually being 2D, G&W already has the proposed "simple" movement that Sheriff would. I understand that it may be even simpler that that, but that just would feel out of place in a game with such evolved graphics/animations. His other options are a horse and his gun. While his gun would be pixilated enough to be kept as is, shooting in all directions wouldn't be so unique. We have Megaman for that. If given a redesign, he couldn't have his gun, but his horse would be more doable. Overall, I see him with no unique options except filling a niche that G&W already fills.

Sukapon: B+ Tier
Sukapon is certainly visually unique, what with it's body parts floating independent of it's body. This may allow for deceptive range, and an easily feint-able moveset, but those things are not inherently unique. However, Firstblade has pointed out to me his floating body parts may make him more difficult to hit with small projectiles or attacks with small hitboxes. I think that all of these attributes may make him quite unique together. While I still think borrowing powers from other robots is still a lot like Megaman, it could certainly help fill out his moveset with more exciting techniques.
 
Last edited:

BridgesWithTurtles

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
2,175
Location
The long road to nowhere
3DS FC
3523-2059-7939
Sheriff: C- Tier
I understand that a sprite is different from the other characters, but it seems more like stealing G&W's thunder. Despite not actually being 2D, G&W already has the proposed "simple" movement that Sheriff would. I understand that it may be even simpler that that, but that just would feel out of place in a game with such evolved graphics/animations. His other options are a horse and his gun. While his gun would be pixilated enough to be kept as is, shooting in all directions wouldn't be so unique. We have Megaman for that. If given a redesign, he couldn't have his gun, but his horse would be more doable. Overall, I see him with no unique options except filling a niche that G&W already fills.
The fact that Sheriff would feel out of place actually helps make him unique, however. And that's what we're judging, is it not? Uniqueness?

Additionally, I should point out that Game & Watch is in fact 2D, which is one of the reasons I propose that Sheriff NOT be rendered in 2D.

Shooting in all directions would most definitely be unique. From what we can tell, Megaman can only shoot straight forward with the Mega Buster. Sheriff can shoot in 8 directions: left, right, upward, downward, and the four diagonal directions. All while walking either forward or backward. There are very few diagonal projectiles in the series so far. Sheriff could be one of the first to make extensive use of them.

I understand where you're coming from with Sheriff's "simplicity" not being as unique since we already have G&W, but I think that the two do "simple" in different enough ways (LCD frames vs sprite movement) that it's justifiable to overlook this similarity. It might be enough to convince me that Sheriff should be a B rather than an A, though. I definitely can't agree that he'd be as low as a C.
 

ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
2,077
3DS FC
4527-8092-0589
The fact that Sheriff would feel out of place actually helps make him unique, however. And that's what we're judging, is it not? Uniqueness?
Yes, he'd be out of place. And that does help. But we have G&W who has odd movement and simple animations already, and if he were to go simpler than that it would, in my opinion, just look lazy.

Additionally, I should point out that Game & Watch is in fact 2D, which is one of the reasons I propose that Sheriff NOT be rendered in 2D.
There's little distinction. It's impossible to make a 2D image on a 3D plane, G&W has height and width, but also depth. Even if it's just one pixel. Having Sheriff as 3D pixel art would be different, but ever so barely.

Shooting in all directions would most definitely be unique. From what we can tell, Megaman can only shoot straight forward with the Mega Buster. Sheriff can shoot in 8 directions: left, right, upward, downward, and the four diagonal directions. All while walking either forward or backward. There are very few diagonal projectiles in the series so far. Sheriff could be one of the first to make extensive use of them.
Watch the developer direct. Sakurai states, in it, that Megaman's Metal Blade can be thrown in all 8 directions. Megaman is a wholly projectile-based character, but I don't think he's unique just because of that. Megaman is unique because of the amount of projectiles he has (Mega-Buster [which has a chargeable attack via Side Smash and a fast, weaker projectile that can be launched while running/jumping], Leaf Shield, Metal Blade, Crash Bomber, Hard Knuckle and those are just the one's we know). One dedicated projectile to base the character around isn't really unique, in my opinion.

I understand where you're coming from with Sheriff's "simplicity" not being as unique since we already have G&W, but I think that the two do "simple" in different enough ways (LCD frames vs sprite movement) that it's justifiable to overlook this similarity. It might be enough to convince me that Sheriff should be a B rather than an A, though. I definitely can't agree that he'd be as low as a C.
I'm putting him in C because, it just seems like most of his moves would be sort of basic, like you said, with difficulty in discerning them from one another. Being able to feint is great, that's just not unique and seems lazy.

That said, I might be being a bit too harsh. C+ seems fair.
 
Last edited:

BridgesWithTurtles

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
2,175
Location
The long road to nowhere
3DS FC
3523-2059-7939
Yes, he'd be out of place. And that does help. But we have G&W who has odd movement and simple animations already, and if he were to go simpler than that it would, in my opinion, just look lazy.

I'm not really sure what this point has to do with the topic at hand anymore, as the sprite-based appearance would still be unique. Whether or not it's a lazy attempt at being unique, it's still distinct from everyone else, including Game & Watch. Believe me, I agree that part of why Sheriff would be added would be to try and force a unique character appearance. It'd be forced, yes, but still visually unique regardless.

There's little distinction. It's impossible to make a 2D image on a 3D plane, G&W has height and width, but also depth. Even if it's just one pixel. Having Sheriff as 3D pixel art would be different, but ever so barely.

The similarities here would be that both characters would move in a 2-dimensional fashion (ie, neither would be able to move their bodies into the Z-plane). The fact that they would both move as if two-dimensional is true, so yes, you'd have to dock Sheriff points for uniqueness in that regard. But if still 3D, he'd be 3D, no doubt about it. Game & Watch obviously needs depth to work in the game, but he's completely flat and is supposed to be seen as lacking in dimension. I think Sheriff would be a little more along the lines of Paper Mario, if he were to become playable. Largely focused on the 2D plane, but with three-dimensional depth.

Watch the developer direct. Sakurai states, in it, that Megaman's Metal Blade can be thrown in all 8 directions. Megaman is a wholly projectile-based character, but I don't think he's unique just because of that. Megaman is unique because of the amount of projectiles he has (Mega-Buster [which has a chargeable attack via Side Smash and a fast, weaker projectile that can be launched while running/jumping], Leaf Shield, Metal Blade, Crash Bomber, Hard Knuckle and those are just the one's we know). One dedicated projectile to base the character around isn't really unique, in my opinion.

Basing a character around one projectile is unique because it hasn't been done before (inb4 someone mentions Brawl Falco). Just because Megaman has one projectile to use in 8 directions doesn't mean his playstyle is based around the concept. It looks like he can't walk while using the blades (unless he's holding one as an item, in which case it loses the 8-way functionality), and as I suggested for Sheriff, he lacks mobility options such as a horse from which to shoot from while moving. Just because Mega Man sort of has one move that Sheriff can have, doesn't mean Sheriff couldn't use it in a unique way. For example, the ability to shoot at different body parts for different levels of effectiveness. Saying that Mega Man's metal blades nullifies Sheriff's uniqueness is like saying Snake nullifies Bubbles' potential as a trapper because he already has mines/C4s. I see what you're saying about the pistol sort of having been done before, but it's the way in which moves are used that makes them unique.

I'm putting him in C because, it just seems like most of his moves would be sort of basic, like you said, with difficulty in discerning them from one another. Being able to feint is great, that's just not unique and seems lazy.

I'm not really seeing how being able to feint isn't unique. Sure, other characters make mild use of it, but we don't really have a character whose shtick is faking out opponents with a combination of visually similar melee and projectile moves. I think it's reasonable to consider as a fresh playstyle. I guess laziness is in the eye of the beholder, because where you see this idea as lazy, I see something with untapped potential.

That said, I might be being a bit too harsh. C+ seems fair.

And I'm probably overthinking Sheriff's uniqueness. Your points are largely valid and they do call into question Sheriff's potential uniqueness, but I believe that a lot of his problems are minor and negligible, because what he has in terms of advantages outweight the similarities he has to other characters. The fact that these similarities exist do pose a problem for his uniqueness, of course, which is why I definitely can't say he's Grade A material anymore. I wouldn't put him as low as a C, with the likes of Diskun and Cranky, but as I said before, a B/B- is where I feel comfortable placing him. Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion and ranking; I'm just responding to express the reason why my ranking differs. Most of what he can do has been done before, but I find it impossible to believe that with how visually distinct he is, that he could end up being bland if he were to join the roster.
Responses in orange. Gotta say, this is a pretty good discussion that I am glad I've taken part in.
 

Raetah

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
475
Aparently Sakurai stated that he didnt wanted characters from fighting games. Yet Sukapon is the only character that created interest in me from all the Retro, is fairly unique both aesthetically and in gameplay, i would place it between A and B.
 

ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
2,077
3DS FC
4527-8092-0589
Responses in orange. Gotta say, this is a pretty good discussion that I am glad I've taken part in.
Yeah, it was. I think it really comes down to whether not you see him encroaching on G&W's territory and how much you think that matters.
I guess I think it matters more.
 

El Fonz0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
123
Umm
Should it still be Retro Week?
I thought it would be Pokemon Week
It seemed that this thread was inactive during the weekend
 

ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
2,077
3DS FC
4527-8092-0589
Umm
Should it still be Retro Week?
I thought it would be Pokemon Week
It seemed that this thread was inactive during the weekend
Sorta, we should prolly have some more people vote before we move on. And actually decide the pokemon we're going to discuss.
 

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
Sorta, we should prolly have some more people vote before we move on. And actually decide the pokemon we're going to discuss.
Honestly, I am giving up on Pokemon when it comes to Smash (I still like the Pokemon main games)... because Meowth will never be playable in Smash ever... and we are probably not getting any new Pokemon characters but the same old Brawl Pokemon + Mewtwo...
 

ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
2,077
3DS FC
4527-8092-0589
Honestly, I am giving up on Pokemon when it comes to Smash (I still like the Pokemon main games)... because Meowth will never be playable in Smash ever... and we are probably not getting any new Pokemon characters but the same old Brawl Pokemon + Mewtwo...
Well, maybe Meowth can make into the Pokemon fighting game.
And I can't pretend to understand Sakurai's choices. I have no idea what he'll do. While I can't see more than one newcomer for any series this time around, I certainly think one is likely.
And, of course, I'd like it if Mewtwo returned. But, eh. I have Project M, so I don't even actually need it.
 

FirstBlade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
313
I would like to make a case for Sukapon and regarding retros...what about Donbe/Hikari and Mike Jones? Harry? Excitebiker? I think Mike Jones and D/H have to be done considering both characters had or have some popularity for Smash (Donbe and Hikari were more popular than IC's pre-Melee). Also....Balloon Fighter? Thoughts on if he is deconfirmed or not? I understand if you don't want to extend the week too far though.
 
Last edited:

FirstBlade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
313
TBH, Sukapon is a sore subject for me considering he was pretty much shot down by Sakurai himself, but I feel a lot of people are undershooting his potential here.
Sukapon

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
The main one that I am appalled nobody brought up is his potential for unique hit boxes. Look at Sukapon and you can easily see that he has an interesting design in the fact that his body parts are floating! This could be used in a unique way in Smash in which some attacks will pass right through him (ex: LInk's arrow passing right through between his head and torso). Before you go out and call this cheap, you must take into account that Sukapon would most likely be a laggy character and the fact that a lot of close range attacks actually spread across a wide area (like an uppercut.) The other thing is deceptive range. While this is considered un-unique by ToothiestAura, when you really think about it there is currently no character with this attribute in Smash (at least not that affects the whole moveset as I imagine it would for Sukapon). Deceptive range would actually make him a tricky character to face like no other especially if he has many attacks that start off similar yet end up very different. In fact, I am positive that no other character would be able to take this from Sukapon without it looking very "off" on them.
2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Definitely, the moves Sukapon possesses in Joy Mech Fight are quite different and could help to emulate the "tricky" moveset I mentioned above. For example, take 2 of his signature moves Tondeker and Konaniran. Tondeker shoots a false Sukapon head forward that explodes on contact with players. What makes this different from other projectiles? Well, there is the fact that this could possibly hit in not one but two places complementing his tricky playstyle. In order to do the move, Sukapon thrusts his real head forward, so you can imagine that would do damage as well as the shot head. This would also give possibilities for 2 consecutive hits. Another possibility is that the projectile is actually slow moving and leaves opponents dazed (think Deku nut) just like the expression of the fake head. Konaniran starts the same way with the head thrusting animation again furthering the tricky playstyle. However, instead of shooting a fake head, the real head comes right back to him. I can see this move allowing for easily "juggling" combos as it pushes characters up into the air. Again, a multi-hitting type move. Sukapon also has access to Sukapon Roll (think a floaty Rollout that you can actually jump with that is easy to combo out of due to Sukapon detaching immediately. Sukapon also already has access to weird throws and aerials (all of which are deceptive) which when you think about it already gives him a workable moveset. The other robots have plenty other moves to take from as well and I don't agree this would make him too similar to Megaman (@ ToothiestAura ToothiestAura , did it make Villager less unique to you?). The way these moves work are completely different and have potential for unique niches themselves. For example, Sky Dragon (used by Shenlong) is a spinning cyclone-like uppercut that uses the detached body parts as weapons to surround it. Then there are also others like Giant's Power Bomb, Eye's Eye Astrong, Flames' Fire Wave and many others that could easily have unique niches.
3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
No, neither a messed up hitbox or deceiving range thing has been done before in Smash. Ever.
4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
One thing I forgot to mention up above is the crazy expressions the robots convey when performing these moves (which can spice up even the most boring moves akin to Dedede). Most of the moves are visually appealing for the most part anyways.
5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Very. His body parts aren't even attached.
6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Everything I mentioned above does considering Sukapon is a quirky robot so even the other robots moves don't look out of place on him.

Uniqueness rating: A, a character with completely different hitboxes and extremely deceptive range has never been done before in Smash and Sukapon has enough to take from where he won't be boring or uninspired. His an the other robots' moves also have a lot of potential for unique niches. Sukapon himself has very quirky moves that for the most part wouldn't seem generic. Even if they were considered somewhat generic if expressions works wonders for Dedede it should work just as fine for Sukapon.
 

ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
2,077
3DS FC
4527-8092-0589
@ FirstBlade FirstBlade
I meant he would be similar to Megaman because he also uses other robots' powers (I don't see what this has to do with Villager).

But your other points are valid. I completely didn't see the potential of his floating body to make him difficult to hit. I needed someone to make a good case for him; his topic didn't seem very effective and I hadn't played the game.

I will amend my post and change his rating to B+.
 
Last edited:

Louie G.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
9,779
Location
Rhythm Heaven
Alright, let's finally end this day. Just understand I might be on less in the next few days, so be patient.

Sheriff's simplicity is what made him shine this week, earning him a B+ in uniqueness.

Sukapon was also well received, earning a B as well.

Today is the beginning of PokéWeek!

We shall start with one of my personal favorites: Meowth.

Meowth is a star in the anime, and can use Team Rocket gadgets and the like, but how unique would he be relying on moves from his Pokémon games?

Discuss.

Oh yeah, let's tag @ Arcadenik Arcadenik and @pizzadudemanguy today.
 
Last edited:

FirstBlade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
313
@ FirstBlade FirstBlade
I meant he would be similar to Megaman because he also uses other robots' powers (I don't see what this has to do with Villager).

But your other points are valid. I completely didn't see the potential of his floating body to make him difficult to hit. I needed someone to make a good case for him; his topic didn't seem very effective and I hadn't played the game.

I will amend my post and change his rating to B+.
My point was that Villager being similar to G and W didn't stop him from being put in S tier because he has unique niches, I don't see why Sukapon and Mega man would be any different. The powers aren't nd probably wouldn't even be on all of Sukapons moves
 

Tepig2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
2,356
Location
Why does it matter?
3DS FC
2938-8785-9936
Meowth:

1. How many diverse options does this character have?

If based in anime Meowth, a lot. But I don't like the idea, so my analysis will be made with games Meowth in mind. Meowth's signature ability is producing coins and using them to attack enemies. In Smash, this would be represented by him throwing coins everywhere. This is unique, as Meowth would throw projectiles at all possible directions at the same time, something no other character does. But outside of that, he just scratches.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?

Scratches aren't too different from Bowser's and Charizard's. However, attacking with coins is something other characters never do.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?

A character that scratches? Yes. A character that throws projectiles around like crazy? No.

3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on it's own.

Meowth's way of scratching isn't anything different from other scratches.

4. Does the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?

Scratches aren't entertaining, but throwing coins everywhere would be very fun, I think.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?

He's a cat. Nuff said.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?

Meowth is a Pokémon. Pokémon fit in Smash. Duh.

Based on this, I would give Meowth a C+ at most. He can throw coins everywhere, but that's it. I want him, but this is based in his personality, not his uniqueness.
 
Last edited:

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
What I want for Meowth is to have an unique playstyle that revolves around Meowth's charm... and how it affects Meowth's coin-based moves... and a playstyle that revolves around Meowth's Pickup ability... and special moves that pay homage to Meowth's Smash history...

First... Meowth's charm on his forehead? It is a koban... and the Amulet Coin item in the Pokemon games is a koban... so basically Meowth enters the match with an held item... except it is not really held in Meowth's paws... it is on Meowth's forehead.

During the match... Meowth loses his charm... and gets it back... and loses it again... and so on... kinda like this classic episode...


Meowth loses the charm if:
  • he gets hit with strong physical attacks such as DK's Giant Punch and Captain Falcon's knee (only if he has 100% damage or more)
  • he gets hit by a Meteor Smash (only if he has 100% damage or more)
  • he gets hit with a physical item like the Hammer item and the Soccer Ball item (only if he has 100% damage or more)

Meowth gets the charm back if:
  • he loses a stock by getting blasted off
  • he picks up a major healing item like the Heart Container item and the Maxim Tomato item (Food items don't count)
  • he uses his Final Smash
  • he successfully KOs an opponent

Don't worry about being not able to see whether Meowth's model has the charm or not during gameplay... The koban icon will be present on Meowth's picture on the bottom of the screen if Meowth has it... and it will disappear if Meowth loses it.

When Meowth's charm is missing, Meowth's coin-based moves are weakened... I mentioned that I wanted Meowth to have special moves that pay homage to Meowth's Smash history... well, I want Meowth to have special moves based on these:



Meowth's Pay Day in Smash 64 could work as a Down+B counter move called Payback... each coin inflicts 2% damage... if Meowth has the charm, he will throw 24 coins around when he is attacked... if Meowth lacks the charm, he will throw 12 coins instead...

Meowth's Pay Day in Brawl could work as a neutral B special move called Pay Day (I wouldn't have guessed!)... if Meowth has the charm, he will throw dozens of coins at lightning-fast speed as long as the B button is held down (it lasts 5 seconds)... each coin inflicts 1% damage without knockback (trapping the opponent) and it will rack up to 60% (12 coins per second)... if Meowth doesn't have the charm, he will only throw one coin each time the player presses the B button... as compensation, this coin deals 12% damage and has good knockback like Lucas's PK Fire.

Meowth's Party is Meowth's Final Smash... it is like the Barbara Assist Trophy but with a much bigger radius (around the size of Jigglypuff's Final Smash)...



... but it looks entertaining as it would take visuals from Meowth's Party with Team Rocket...


I also mentioned that I wanted Meowth to take advantage of his natural Pickup ability... this ability would lend to stealing held items and item effects... Thief, Covet, and Snatch... but I would just name the Side+B move "Cat's Paw" as that's the Japanese name for "Assist"... except in Smash, Meowth is only assisting himself to those items. The animation would be very similar to Cat Mario in Super Mario 3D World.

The Thief move lets the user attack and steal the target's held item simultaneously. The Snatch move lets the user steal the effects of any healing or stat-changing move the opponent attempts to use. The Covet move lets the user approach the target endearingly and then steal the target's held item.

In Smash... with items turned on... Meowth will leap towards the opponent, scratches the opponent, and steals the item that the opponent was holding... it is very useful against opponents who may be using the Hammer item and opponents who possess the Dragoon parts... but if Meowth has the charm, Meowth may also steal the item effects that the opponent was under...

For example, suppose Mario is under the effect of the Super Mushroom item and he is big... Meowth will scratch Mario and then steal the Super Mushroom effect from Mario... and Mario shrinks down to his normal size and Meowth grows big... it doesn't work against characters under the Starman effect... and it will work only if the opponent has 100% damage or more.

This move is useful for knocking Smash Balls away from opponents... but Meowth does not get the Final Smash either. Ultimately, this move is useful for matches with items turned on... but it doesn't mean it is useless when the items are turned off...

If the opponent pulls out an item... such as Link's bombs and Peach's vegetable... Meowth will steal those items... if the opponent does not have an item nor is under the effects of an item... Meowth will simply leap on the opponent's face and scratches the face repeatedly... that's Fury Swipes... that's what Meowth would do in matches with items turned off.

I also want to add that Meowth has Unnerve as his hidden ability... this prevents the opponent Pokemon from using their held Berries while Meowth is in the battle... in Smash, Meowth could steal the effects of healing items from opponents... for example... if Pikachu has 100% damage and he picks up the Maxim Tomato item... this item heals 50%... so... if Pikachu picks it up, his percentage starts to go down... but if Meowth uses Cat's Paw and interrupts Pikachu... Meowth will heal with whatever is left of the Maxim Tomato... like if Pikachu has 100% and it is going down towards 50%... and Meowth has 60%... and if Meowth attacks Pikachu when Pikachu's percentage is at 75% (it's already went down by 25% at this point), Pikachu's percentage will stop going down... and Meowth will heal 25% (the remaining of the Maxim Tomato)... and Meowth now has 35%.

I see that some people here don't think that scratches are interesting... but that's the thing... we have had characters who fight by scratching their opponents in other fighting games... Felicia from Darkstalkers... Cham Cham from Samurai Shodown... so... Meowth could fill out this niche in Smash... and Meowth is known as the Scratch Cat Pokemon. That alone would build up the bulk of Meowth's normal A moves.
 
Last edited:

Bowserlick

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
5,136
Meowth
(I am using BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Meowth seems limited to fury swipes and some sort of special involving his signature Payday technique. But there are ways to shoe-horn in a theme or two. He is a cat. Cat's are known for their agility, ability to walk on walls, and of course: claws. Meowth can have another sub-theme. He can be a damage racker like Sheik. But because he would not have a transformation, he could have better killing moves.

Pay-Day could work well with this rogue theme. Meowth uses coins to attack. Pay-Day could be a move that has a high damage curve(dealing a percentage of the enemy's damage percentage back to them). The higher the opponent's damage, the more Pay-Day will add to that damage. But if used on an opponent with low damage, it deals very little. Thus, this move is useful in racking up the last points of damage before the final blow.

Now onto Meowth's claws. Maybe for his side B he can a) slide on the ground upon his belly with claws forward to trip and b) lunge forward with his claws in the air. If he connects with a wall, he will run up the wall for a limited amount of time. Good way to get to the ledge on vertically wide stages.

Maybe for his Up B we can use some inspiration from the anime. Meowth is always being sent into the air with his companions until they become a winking star. His Up B could launch him upwards (perhaps he gets spooked and archs his back while leaping like a frightened cat) very, very high. The height goes further the more damage Meowth has and if his damage is very high, his Up B can kill him off the top blast line. Meowth can attack after the move.

Still, even with some creativity Meowth can seem a little on the bland side.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
Meowth can offer another take on a damage-racker. Perhaps his claws can be used to interact with the stage.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before? If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on it's own?
Yes, damage-racker has been done.. Sheik really showcases the role of an attacker. But that doesn't mean another damage-racker cannot be added for each new game. But this does hurt his chances to be purely unique.

4. Is the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
The cat suit in Mario 3D World was entertaining. Meowth's movset can be partially inspired by this item.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
An upright cat. Fairly different among the cast. His proportions are much different than the space animals.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Damage dealing plus inspiration from a real cat seems to fit well enough.

Rating (Uniqueness): C to B

If Sakurai really wants to put Meowth in, I can see him really trying to figure out a way to make Meowth exciting to play. Interactions with the stage based off on how a feline acts can be pretty neat. Meowth should be able to crawl, slide, climb walls, and wall cling. But the reality is that his personality in the anime outshines his abilities. He has a coin move and claws. So, I say that he could possibly attain B tier, but in reality he might be lower.
 
Last edited:

Tepig2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
2,356
Location
Why does it matter?
3DS FC
2938-8785-9936
What I want for Meowth is to have an unique playstyle that revolves around Meowth's charm... and how it affects Meowth's coin-based moves... and a playstyle that revolves around Meowth's Pickup ability... and special moves that pay homage to Meowth's Smash history...

First... Meowth's charm on his forehead? It is a koban... and the Amulet Coin item in the Pokemon games is a koban... so basically Meowth enters the match with an held item... except it is not really held in Meowth's paws... it is on Meowth's forehead.

During the match... Meowth loses his charm... and gets it back... and loses it again... and so on... kinda like this classic episode...


Meowth loses the charm if:
  • he gets hit with strong physical attacks such as DK's Giant Punch and Captain Falcon's knee (only if he has 100% damage or more)
  • he gets hit by a Meteor Smash (only if he has 100% damage or more)
  • he gets hit with a physical item like the Hammer item and the Soccer Ball item (only if he has 100% damage or more)

Meowth gets the charm back if:
  • he loses a stock by getting blasted off
  • he picks up a major healing item like the Heart Container item and the Maxim Tomato item (Food items don't count)
  • he uses his Final Smash
  • he successfully KOs an opponent

Don't worry about being not able to see whether Meowth's model has the charm or not during gameplay... The koban icon will be present on Meowth's picture on the bottom of the screen if Meowth has it... and it will disappear if Meowth loses it.

When Meowth's charm is missing, Meowth's coin-based moves are weakened... I mentioned that I wanted Meowth to have special moves that pay homage to Meowth's Smash history... well, I want Meowth to have special moves based on these:



Meowth's Pay Day in Smash 64 could work as a Down+B counter move called Payback... each coin inflicts 2% damage... if Meowth has the charm, he will throw 24 coins around when he is attacked... if Meowth lacks the charm, he will throw 12 coins instead...

Meowth's Pay Day in Brawl could work as a neutral B special move called Pay Day (I wouldn't have guessed!)... if Meowth has the charm, he will throw dozens of coins at lightning-fast speed as long as the B button is held down (it lasts 5 seconds)... each coin inflicts 1% damage without knockback (trapping the opponent) and it will rack up to 60% (12 coins per second)... if Meowth doesn't have the charm, he will only throw one coin each time the player presses the B button... as compensation, this coin deals 12% damage and has good knockback like Lucas's PK Fire.

Meowth's Party is Meowth's Final Smash... it is like the Barbara Assist Trophy but with a much bigger radius (around the size of Jigglypuff's Final Smash)...



... but it looks entertaining as it would take visuals from Meowth's Party with Team Rocket...


I also mentioned that I wanted Meowth to take advantage of his natural Pickup ability... this ability would lend to stealing held items and item effects... Thief, Covet, and Snatch... but I would just name the Side+B move "Cat's Paw" as that's the Japanese name for "Assist"... except in Smash, Meowth is only assisting himself to those items. The animation would be very similar to Cat Mario in Super Mario 3D World.

The Thief move lets the user attack and steal the target's held item simultaneously. The Snatch move lets the user steal the effects of any healing or stat-changing move the opponent attempts to use. The Covet move lets the user approach the target endearingly and then steal the target's held item.

In Smash... with items turned on... Meowth will leap towards the opponent, scratches the opponent, and steals the item that the opponent was holding... it is very useful against opponents who may be using the Hammer item and opponents who possess the Dragoon parts... but if Meowth has the charm, Meowth may also steal the item effects that the opponent was under...

For example, suppose Mario is under the effect of the Super Mushroom item and he is big... Meowth will scratch Mario and then steal the Super Mushroom effect from Mario... and Mario shrinks down to his normal size and Meowth grows big... it doesn't work against characters under the Starman effect... and it will work only if the opponent has 100% damage or more.

This move is useful for knocking Smash Balls away from opponents... but Meowth does not get the Final Smash either. Ultimately, this move is useful for matches with items turned on... but it doesn't mean it is useless when the items are turned off...

If the opponent pulls out an item... such as Link's bombs and Peach's vegetable... Meowth will steal those items... if the opponent does not have an item nor is under the effects of an item... Meowth will simply leap on the opponent's face and scratches the face repeatedly... that's Fury Swipes... that's what Meowth would do in matches with items turned off.

I see that some people here don't think that scratches are interesting... but that's the thing... we have had characters who fight by scratching their opponents in other fighting games... Felicia from Darkstalkers... Cham Cham from Samurai Shodown... so... Meowth could fill out this niche in Smash... and Meowth is known as the Scratch Cat Pokemon.
I completely forgot about his pickup ability. That raises him to B in my tier.
 
Last edited:

BluePikmin11

Akko is my dear daughter!
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
28,373
Location
https://twitter.com/BPikmin11
NNID
blue
Oh yeah the pick-up ability, but I don't think we ever saw a Pokemon character that uses an ability in a moveset though, seems pretty unlikely.
 
Last edited:

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
Oh yeah the pick-up ability, but I don't think we ever saw a Pokemon character that uses an ability in a moveset though, seems pretty unlikely.
I also added Meowth's hidden ability, Unnerve, to his Side+B move...
 

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
So they are unable to use healing items, that would be interesting. I'm slowly starting to like him better now.
Meowth has to resort to stealing healing items if he wants to stay under 100% or he becomes more likely to lose his charm...
 

Shorts

Zef Side
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
9,609
3DS FC
3136-6583-3704
Meowth C - Tier
-His moves would be "unique" but not innovative.
 

BluePikmin11

Akko is my dear daughter!
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
28,373
Location
https://twitter.com/BPikmin11
NNID
blue
You can't steal healing items while the opponent heals right?
Maybe steal their health while recovering the specific amount so you can heal yourself. :troll:
For example, if a person heals with a heart container and Meowth steals it, he'll steal a majority of what was suppose to be the opponent's health.
 

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
You can't steal healing items while the opponent heals right?
Maybe steal their health while recovering the specific amount so you can heal yourself. :troll:
For example, if a person heals with a heart container and Meowth steals it, he'll steal a majority of what was suppose to be the opponent's health.
Meowth doesn't play fair... he is with Team Rocket. :troll:
 

Shorts

Zef Side
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
9,609
3DS FC
3136-6583-3704
If you want to get super technical, throw in "pickup ability". He can grab items much further from where he actually is.

Anyone can be unique, and innovative, how do you guys want us to distinguish them? I just was going off of a first glance/overall feel. But I can get technical and make meowth this super fast item-abuser or something
 
Last edited:

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
Remember that Pikachu has a move from the card game? Thunder Jolt...

Well, Meowth could get some moves from the card game too...





Double Scratch... could work as the Running+A move... where Meowth scratches with both claws... just like in the anime... and also as Aerial Forward+A move... where Meowth jumps in the air and scratches twice.

Cat Punch and Cat Kick could work as as neutral A move and Side+A move, respectively.

Pickup Power... perfect... that's basically what my Side+B move is for Meowth...

Coin Hurl... perfect name for the weakened Pay Day move where Meowth throws only one coin.
 

HeroG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
152
As a pokemon player I really dislike meowth as a playable rep. But he can do more than you guys think. As a Normal Type he can do basicly what most of the other pokemon can do. Here is his moveset. Yes he would use payday and slash attacks but he can use tunderbolt and water pulse and Shadow ball and rest. I could see him using Fake out (Like Weavle) to stun enemies as a side special. And even with the in game moveset he would kinda have cloney moves to other pokemon. I would give him a C- overall. A bad rep for pokemon (imo but still better then jiggs) Interesting character, but nothing NEW or COOL.
 
Last edited:

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
As a pokemon player I really dislike meowth as a playable rep. But he can do more than you guys think. As a Normal Type he can do basicly what most of the other pokemon can do. Here is his moveset. Yes he would use payday and slash attacks but he can use tunderbolt and water pulse and Shadow ball and rest. I could see him useing Fake out (Like Weavle) to stun enemies as a side special. And even with the ingame moveset he would kinda have cloney moves to other pokemon.
Yes... we know Meowth can use Thunderbolt and Water Pulse and such... but that's not what he is known for... Meowth is best known for scratching, throwing coins, and stealing.

Plus, Pikachu could use Thunderbolt.. and Squirtle could use Water Pulse... because it makes sense for those Pokemon to use those moves.. and Meowth using those moves would be perceived as being out of place... and then people would just say that Sakurai couldn't come up with a moveset that suits Meowth so he had to give Meowth electric and water powers.
 

Bowserlick

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
5,136
If Meowth really has to utilize other elemental attacks, I think another pokemon would be a better option.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom