The Uniqueness Tier List: Captain Falcon, Robin, Lucina, Shulk, and Meta-Knight

[Capybara Gaming]

Is it the one with the Piston Hammer-styled move?

 

[FirstBlade]

@ Capybara Gaming , umm... I'm not sure who Piston Hammer is but this is it.

Mach Rider should defenitely remain a dude. The original is a dude (the game guide for the original refers to Mach as a dude) and that seems to be the only one that matters anyways (this was the only one that was in Brawl's catalog as well, no arcade games were included.) Also, since Sakurai has already referred to Mach as a dude in Melee it wouldn't make sense for him to miraculously turn him into a woman.

Anyways, moveset possibilities could be pretty good for this guy. Anyways, I decided to make a basic special moveset for this guy.

AAA- Punch, Punch, Elbow 4%. 4%. 5%.

Dash Attack- Body slam. 10%.

F-Tilt- Powerful forward kick. Does 15%
U-Tilt- An upward punch. Does 9%.
D-Tilt- A downwards shot with his Quad Gun. Does 11%.

N-Air- Splits into particles and comes back together very quickly. Does 4%
F-Air- Double kick. 5%. 5%
B-Air- Back Elbow (kind of like a falling elbow) 8%.
U-Air- Flip Kick. 7%
D-Air- Dives down headfirst. Very Fast. 10%

F-Smash- A tumble into a slide. 18%. High knockback.
U-Smash- "A Bikers Jump". A backflip kick as if he jumped off of a bike. 16%. Medium knockback.
D-Smash- Shoots on eiether side of him 6% on each side. Low knockback.

Grab: Both hands
Pummel: A headbutt with the spiked part of his helmet.


B: Quad Gun- A futuristic gun capable of firing shots that home in and "jump" from player to player. Holding B allows for the gun's rays to be able to "jump" from players from farther away. The gun is capable of hitting 4 times. First hit causes 8%, Second hit causes 4%, Third hit causes 2%, Fourth hit causes 1%. Based off Quadrunners. Only the first hit causes knockback.
Over B: Mach Speed- Mach Rider will speed forward very quickly similiar to Fox Illusion except instead of knocking characters upwards will go through them and push characters behind him not unlike Porygon 2 from Melee. Can be used as a side recovery wih spike like properties if used in the air. This move has the ability to cause poison damage if the shoulder spike sweetspot is hit. Causes 13% without sweetspot and 17% with sweetspot. Based off of his Mach Bike.
Up B: Materialization- Explodes into particles and comes back together in the direction you want (similiar to Sheik except you can "see" where you are going). Always causes fire damage. This would be an okay recovery. Explosion causes 10%. This could be an efficient move to dodge attacks with if timed right as he cannot take damage when in the particle form. Based off of his particle ability.
Down B: Survivor- This is not another counter or reflector move. This move can potentially allow Mach Rider to cut knockback by half. (Of course you can still receive damage.) Mach Rider will enter a defensive stance (You know arms up in front of face.) If he is hit in this posistion he will a glow in a gray hue for a moment he will still receive the damage but knockback will be cut by half of what it would have done without it. The stance lasts for approximately 1.5 seconds.

Final Smash: Mach Bike: Mach Rider's bike will appear. You control the bike and can shoot lasers from the gun by pressing A. The lasers cause damage when they hit players as well as push players back. Occasionaly the lasers will explode similiar to a Bob-omb. You can jump with the bike as well and running into players is encouaraged as it can cause heavy knockback. At the end of 20 seconds, the Mach Bike explodes and Mach Rider does what he does when the bike explodes in the original Mach Rider.

Playstyle: Mach should be a fast character who has stronger attacks on the ground then in the air. His airials are pretty weak becauses of this. He is capable of ranged attacks and is good at close combat. He is also good at zoning and mindgames thanks to the Materialization and Survivor move.

Entrance- Drives in on his bike which dissappears into shards.

Taunt- Takes out the Quad gun and admires it while saying "Easy as riding a bike"
Taunt 2- Explodes and materializes in place
Taunt 3- Takes a chain and whips it a couple times near him.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

@ FirstBlade , I was referring to the fact that someone suggested the Down Special move being a punch called Piston Hammer.

 

[FirstBlade]

@ FirstBlade , I was referring to the fact that someone suggested the Down Special move being a punch called Piston Hammer.

Oh. I see now.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Oh. I see now.

Righto, then. Do you own the MR thread?

 

[ToothiestAura]

Ratings:

Mach Rider: B- Tier

I see a lot of potential that may be blocked by our concepts of him. Movesets I've seen for Mach Rider don't do much for him, there is noted similarity to Captain Falcon (understandably) and Fox. Seen as a fast character with possibilities of dash moves, laser guns and an explosion oriented up special don't do well for his level of uniqueness.
Though people glance over his bike as only applicable as an FS, but I think it could be central to his moveset. Wario has a bike, but this would be different. Think of his bike as similar to Sonic's dashing, flowing well with movement and combos. His bike would be accessible as one of his specials giving him a very limited moveset on the bike but incredible mobility that is rivaled only by Sonic's. From his bike he could shoot (through special attack input), jump, perform a few aerials, a grab similar to Bowser's (where you can take the character with you, possibly being dragged via chains [ @ FirstBlade , that's based your idea which is great. Reminds me of Lobo.]), and shift gears via Down Special. On his bike Mach Rider would be a force to be reckoned with, able to rushdown and space very well. Simply hitting people with his bike is his basest form of attack, with priority and damage based on Mach's current gear. The bike will take damage and eventually be destroyed over time, like Wario's, but can take significantly more punishment. Longer cooldown time as well. When his bike is on stage and he isn't on it, it would act like Wario's just with a bigger health bar.
Off his bike Mach would be less unique, playing like a less powerful combination of Fox and Falcon. Attack speed would be decent, but movement speed would be pretty meh. Overall staying with the bike is a better idea, easier kills and just better coverage in general. Attacks here include the previously mention "less unique" ones.
I think we have the potential for another Rosalina here: in that, he may be seen as having less options than he actually does.
(Looking at this, I want to make a moveset based on this, just not now, clearly).

Bubbles: A Tier

Another great option today, wow. Bubbles, while easily looked down upon, has a lot of potential. While the inability to stop moving may sound dumb, it's interesting. Her poles which help her change direction probably shouldn't be the only way for her to do so (just for the sake of making her usable for everyone), they also have the possibility of working as a combination of the bumper item and Mario's cape. Forcibly turning opponents around with more force than they intended (while turning Bubbles herself around more naturally). This would give bubbles a truly unique spacing ability as well as an interesting way to lead into combos. Sound waves and the ability to damage just through movement have been mentioned as well, I think these are both legitimate options that may help this weak character rack up damage with increased range and constant movement. It could also help with Bubbles' defensive game, making rushdown-type characters think twice about being in her face for too long. Overall, very unique.

 

[Tepig2000]

Bubbles:

1. How many diverse options does this character have?

Many. Bubbles has poles, uniras, gold ingots, and the fact she can't stop moving. The poles could be planted in the stage and act like the bumper item. However, if Bubbles touch them she could swing around, dealing damage to enemies. Uniras could work like the Brawl item. Gold ingots could work as a projectile and planted in the ground to make enemies that run over them trip. She could even damage enemies just by running into them. Since she is a fish, she could also use water in her moves.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
They are 100% diverse. Squirtle can use water attacks but barely uses them. That is the only real similiarty she shares with another character moveset-wise, and she could use water much more often than Squirtle.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?

No.

4. Does the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?

Yes. I think she would be really fun with this unique playstyle. If she played like that I would at least try to main her.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?

She's round like Jigglypuff and Kirby, but it is impossible to mistake one for eachother. And unlike them, she is red, not pink.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?

Yes. She fits perfectly in Smash. No reason she wouldn't fit.

I give her a score of S. If you guys think this is too much, then I give her A+.

 

[Louie G.]

Just putting out the idea of Mach being a mount character, being on his bike all the time.
I'll post a little move set later if you guys don't see it working.

 

[Cobalsh]

I see it. Working on mounted moveset right now.

 

[Cpt.]

Just putting out the idea of Mach being a mount character, being on his bike all the time.
I'll post a little move set later if you guys don't see it working.

It's definitely weird to think about, but it is possible. Can't wait to read some movesets.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Just putting out the idea of Mach being a mount character, being on his bike all the time. I'll post a little move set later if you guys don't see it working.

I discussed the potential for a mount character in my post. I felt that was easier than coming up with movesets, which I don't really have time for today, anyway.

Edit: A full mount type character seems unlikely for Smash, though. His bike is supposed to be destructible too. Still, love to see a full mount moveset.

 

[Bowserlick]

Mach Rider
(I am using BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Mach Rider could be the first mounted character. He could be strapped onto his bike with chains. This would be a first, so that rings up some unique points. However, it is building off of a special mode that Wario already has. Another option, is that Mach Rider is redesigned with armor that could morph into a futuristic bike (ala transformers and similar to how Samus can morph into a ball). This would be similar to Wario's bike, except that the bike itself would not be an item and could be harmed. I would allow Mach Rider's specials to function slightly different as a bike and as a man (moveset below). The third option is to allow the rider to appear by himself. So how would he differentiate from the Captain? Well, have Mach Rider's limbs come equipped with small jet engines on the back. His running speed could be average, but his attacks could come out fast and propel him (the opposite of how Captain works).

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
If Mach Rider has a Bike mode (that can be damaged) or is a mounted character, he will add something new.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before? If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on it's own.
Rush-down characters and beat down characters have been done. A motorcycle has even been done. So Mach Rider is in a tough spot where appearing alone will automatically make him appear similar to Captain Falcon, and having a bike or bike mode will remind people of Wario. But there are ways as mentioned above, that he could take a concept that visually might have been done, but executed feels different as a player.

4. Is the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
I think a Bike Mode where his suit turns into a bike would be entertaining. Otherwise, he might be a hybrid of abilities already explored and perhaps exploring them a little bit further.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Visually, there will be some comparisons to Captain Falcon. But Mach Rider is from a dismal post-apocalyptic world and Captain Falcon is from a vibrant world of racing bounty hunters. Still there is not enough visual difference that other characters possess.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Having a bike fits. Being mounted does fit. The Bike Mode where is armor morphs into a bike would be creative licensing. Sakurai re-invented Pit, so this is an option. greater liberties can be taken with retro characters. But is it likely?

Rating out of Ten (Uniqueness): B
Mach Rider has the potential to be unqiue, but because a racer and bike special move are already in this game he would have to do similar things in a different fashion. There are several paths the development team could take with him. So, I will have to give him a solid B.
MOVESET

Spoiler

Mach Rider has a redesign. His armor is more futuristic looking and bulkier. This is because Mach Rider can transform himself into a motorcycle just like Samus can morph into a ball. Mach Rider in normal form is only slightly above average in running speed, but has propulsion jets on his calves for accelerated moves. He also holds a massive energy-shooting chaingun. The chaingun mounts onto the driver's seat when he morphs into a motorcycle. In normal form he has a fast medium roll, but a lousy spot dodge. His dodge in mid-air is average. His speed comes in his other mode where it can be difficult to handle. Expect to drive off the stage multiple times before you get the hang of his intense speed.

Specials
Down B Motorcycle Mode: Armor transforms into a motorcycle with a chain-gun turret on the driver seat. Can use specials and drive back and forth. This mode as one low jump, but with fast air speed that travels further depending on how fast the bike is going. A press of A or Down B exits this mode.

B Chain Gun: Holds gun forward, which spins and delivers ten energy shots in a short burst. Does 10 percent damage. If the enemy is close enough, the shots will cause stun and some knock-back.

Motorcycle Chain Gun: The chain gun is mounted on the driver's seat. B causes the gun to fire a burst. Can be used while moving.

UP B Materialization: Explodes into fragments and materializes a short distance in any direction. If B is pressed during the sequence, Mach Rider will rematerialize as his bike.

Motorcycle Materialization: Explodes into fragments and materializes a short distance in any direction. If B is pressed during the sequence, Mach Rider will rematerialize in normal form.

Side B Mach Engine: Does a short burst in the direction pressed and grabs at the end. If the opponent is grabbed, Mach Rider's jets on his armor will fire and he and the opponent will travel half the distance of Fox's Illusion. Mach Rider will jump off and upwards at the end.

Motorcycle Mach Engine: Jets will fire for a big burst of speed. Can be very dangerous to use. While it can have big KO potential, it knocks the enemy in the opposite direction the bike is traveling.

Ground Attacks
A Mach 1, Mach 2, Mach 3: Delivers three quick punches in succession with one press of the A button.

Dash A Hit-and-Run: Delivers a knee to the enemy.

Side A Chain Gun Backhand: Delivers a backhand with his massive chaingun.

Down A Kneecap Punch: Crouches down on one knee. Punches forward with a press of A. Could cause the opponent to trip.

Up A Chain Gun Uppercut: Delivers a rising uppercut with his chain gun.

Forward Smash Turbo Punch: Mach Rider fires his propulsion jets launching him forward and slightly off the ground a good distance and delivers a punch. (Similar in stats to Wolf's Forward Smash).

Down Smash Donut: Sticks out a braced elbow, fires jets, and rotates in a circle leaving skid marks on the ground. Good clear away move with good knockback).

Up Smash Highway to Heaven: Does a fist pump while holding his chain gun in a vertical-fashion. Hits opponent straight up. If it connects, the gun fires quickly sending five gun shots toward the sky.

Aerial Attacks
Neutral A: A fast flip kick with limited knockback.

Forward A: Swings his gun forward and downwards with both hands. Can Meteor Smash.

Back A: Jets fire sending a massive spray of sparks backwards. First use propels Mach Rider forwards. Good for racking up damage.

Down A: Slams his chain gun straight down as it rotates and fires a burst of five shots. Meteor Smash.

Up A: Flips upside down, bends legs, and kicks straight up. Can be charged.

Throws
Pummel: Headbutts.

Forward Throw: Slams gun in chest, launching them at a 45 degree angle and fires five scattered shots.

Down Throw: Shoulders his chaingun, throws the enemy to the floor and machine gun punches them with both fists until they pop upwards.

Back Throw: Dematerializes and rematerializes behind them to deliver a punch.

Up Throw: Bends his knees and extends legs quickly as he throws the enemy straight up.

 

[Cobalsh]

Mach Rider
(I am using BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Mach Rider could be the first mounted character. He could be strapped onto his bike with chains. This would be a first, so that rings up some unique points. However, it is building off of a special mode that Wario already has. Another option, is that Mach Rider is redesigned with armor that could morph into a futuristic bike (ala transformers and similar to how Samus can morph into a ball). This would be similar to Wario's bike, except that the bike itself would not be an item and could be harmed. I would allow Mach Rider's specials to function slightly different as a bike and as a man (moveset below). The third option is to allow the rider to appear by himself. So how would he differentiate from the Captain? Well, have Mach Rider's limbs come equipped with small jet engines on the back. His running speed could be average, but his attacks could come out fast and propel him (the opposite of how Captain works).

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
If Mach Rider has a Bike mode (that can be damaged) or is a mounted character, he will add something new.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before? If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on it's own.
Rush-down characters and beat down characters have been done. A motorcycle has even been done. So Mach Rider is in a tough spot where appearing alone will automatically make him appear similar to Captain Falcon, and having a bike or bike mode will remind people of Wario. But there are ways as mentioned above, that he could take a concept that visually might have been done, but executed feels different as a player.
4. Is the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
I think a Bike Mode where his suit turns into a bike would be entertaining. Otherwise, he might be a hybrid of abilities already explored and perhaps exploring them a little bit further.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Visually, there will be some contrasts to Captain Falcon. But Mach Rider is from a dismal post-apocalyptic world and Captain Falcon is from a vibrant world of racing bounty hunters. Still there is not enough visual difference that other characters possess.
6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Having a bike fits. Being mounted does fit. The Bike Mode where is armor morphs into a bike would be creative licensing. Sakurai re-invented Pit, so this is an option. greater liberties can be taken with retro characters. But is it likely?

Rating out of Ten (Uniqueness): B
Mach Rider has the potential to be unqiue, but because a racer and bike special move are already in this game he would have to do similar things in a different fashion. There are several paths the development team could take with him. So, I will have to give him a solid B.
MOVESET

Spoiler

Mach Rider has a redesign. His armor is more futuristic looking and bulkier. This is because Mach Rider can transform himself into a motorcycle just like Samus can morph into a ball. Mach Rider in normal form is only slightly above average in running speed, but has propulsion jets on his calves for accelerated moves. He also holds a massive energy-shooting chaingun. The chaingun mounts onto the driver's seat when he morphs into a motorcycle. In normal form he has a fast medium roll, but a lousy spot dodge. His dodge in mid-air is average. His speed comes in his other mode where it can be difficult to handle. Expect to drive off the stage multiple times before you get the hang of his intense speed.

Specials
Down B Motorcycle Mode: Armor transforms into a motorcycle with a chain-gun turret on the driver seat. Can use specials and drive back and forth. This mode as one low jump, but with fast air speed that travels further depending on how fast the bike is going. A press of A or Down B exits this mode.

B Chain Gun: Holds gun forward, which spins and delivers ten energy shots in a short burst. Does 10 percent damage. If the enemy is close enough, the shots will cause stun and some knock-back.

Motorcycle Chain Gun: The chain gun is mounted on the driver's seat. B causes the gun to fire a burst. Can be used while moving.

UP B Materialization: Explodes into fragments and materializes a short distance in any direction. If B is pressed during the sequence, Mach Rider will rematerialize as his bike.

Motorcycle Materialization: Explodes into fragments and materializes a short distance in any direction. If B is pressed during the sequence, Mach Rider will rematerialize in normal form.

Side B Mach Engine: Does a short burst in the direction pressed and grabs at the end. If the opponent is grabbed, Mach Rider's jets on his armor will fire and he and the opponent will travel half the distance of Fox's Illusion. Mach Rider will jump off and upwards at the end.

Motorcycle Mach Engine: Jets will fire for a big burst of speed. Can be very dangerous to use. While it can have big KO potential, it knocks the enemy in the opposite direction the bike is traveling.

Ground Attacks
A Mach 1, Mach 2, Mach 3: Delivers three quick punches in succession with one press of the A button.

Dash A Hit-and-Run: Delivers a knee to the enemy.

Side A Chain Gun Backhand: Delivers a backhand with his massive chaingun.

Down A Kneecap Punch: Crouches down on one knee. Punches forward with a press of A. Could cause the opponent to trip.

Up A Chain Gun Uppercut: Delivers a rising uppercut with his chain gun.

Forward Smash Turbo Punch: Mach Rider fires his propulsion jets launching him forward and slightly off the ground a good distance and delivers a punch. (Similar in stats to Wolf's Forward Smash).

Down Smash Donut: Sticks out a braced elbow, fires jets, and rotates in a circle leaving skid marks on the ground. Good clear away move with good knockback).

Up Smash Highway to Heaven: Does a fist pump while holding his chain gun in a vertical-fashion. Hits opponent straight up. If it connects, the gun fires quickly sending five gun shots toward the sky.

Aerial Attacks
Neutral A: A fast flip kick with limited knockback.

Forward A: Swings his gun forward and downwards with both hands. Can Meteor Smash.

Back A: Jets fire sending a massive spray of sparks backwards. First use propels Mach Rider forwards. Good for racking up damage.

Down A: Slams his chain gun straight down as it rotates and fires a burst of five shots. Meteor Smash.

Up A: Flips upside down, bends legs, and kicks straight up. Can be charged.

Throws
Pummel: Headbutts.

Forward Throw: Slams gun in chest, launching them at a 45 degree angle and fires five scattered shots.

Down Throw: Shoulders his chaingun, throws the enemy to the floor and machine gun punches them with both fists until they pop upwards.

Back Throw: Dematerializes and rematerializes behind them to deliver a punch.

Up Throw: Bends his knees and extends legs quickly as he throws the enemy straight up.

Damn it, Toad! I was writing up a bike morphing moveset too! Agh, ya beat me to it.

 

[Bowserlick]

Bubbles
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Obviously, Bubbles will have to make use of her pivot poles. I do not think Sakurai will make Bubbles drift on her own. It seems counter-intuitive to the nature of Smash and more of a pain than an added element of the experience. However, strictly speaking giving Bubbles a different movement function would be unique.

I think Bubbles should place down her poles (on the ground or in the air). Grabbing them will allow her to spin in place and launch left or right at tremendous speeds adding to her momentum. Without her poles, she should be a slow character. In essence her poles would function as the opposite to Diddy's bananas. While Diddy's bananas slowed down opponents, Bubbles poles would speed her up.

Her sound wave could be a damaging projectile, but I think it also should help her movement game. If her sound wave hits a pole, the pole spins from vertical to horizontal, allowing Bubbles to launch herself down or up at tremendous speed. Thus, she could set the stage up to be faster than Sonic if she places her poles and utilizes them with her waves just right.

Her Up B could be a pixelated black hole that appears a Fox Illusion's length above her. It slowly sucks things (directly below) upwards. But if anything touches the black hole, they are spiked downwards.

I think Bubbles would have to be based on momentum and keeping her fast and dangerous.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Yes, pole placement to buff her speed and allow her stage control is new and advanced players would flock to such a mechanic. However, her design is somewhat simple, has been done before with Jiggs and Kirby (and would be similar to Pac-Man if he is in). Also, her design really limits her A input moveset.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
A momentum character using items has not been done. Opposite of Diddy. Buffs herself instead of nerfing the opponent's speed.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
Her specials can be unique. And in a game of movement, a moveset focused on accelerating movement is interesting. Her A attacks though might be pretty generic.

4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Her specials can be. But the rest of her moves may not be so eye-popping. One way to make her A moves more exciting is having some send the opponent in the opposite direction. So a front hit would send them behind Bubbles and a back hit would send them in front of Bubbles.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Visually she doesn't stand out as much as other characters.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Her specials can be designed to make her a force based on momentum. Some of her A moves can have reverse hitting properties to make her stand out.

Uniqueness Rating: B - to B +
Her specials can be interesting. But can her A moves hold up? And would people like a character with slow speed that requires a buff? Can that be fun? She would probably have to be designed for advanced players.

 

[Bowserlick]

oops, silly double post

 

[Tepig2000]

I don't think Bubbles would be slow. She should be around Sheik level fast and rise to Captain Falcon level fast using the poles. She seems like the most unique character we analyzed yet, and before that she would be the last retro I would choose. Now I want her so badly because she could be fun. And she is a female. We need more females.

 

[FirstBlade]

Just putting out the idea of Mach being a mount character, being on his bike all the time.
I'll post a little move set later if you guys don't see it working.

Righto, then. Do you own the MR thread?

No

Staying with the subject of Mach Rider a lot of you people brought up some great points. The possible flaw that I may see with the entirely mounted character are aerials and jumps (as I brought up in the Mach thread). Other than that, it is a pretty good idea. Some things not brought up after going back to the MR thread yesterday is stuff related with bikes like oil slicks, pistons, and other moves based off of motorcycle parts.

Bubbles
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Obviously, Bubbles will have to make use of her pivot poles. I do not think Sakurai will make Bubbles drift on her own. It seems counter-intuitive to the nature of Smash and more of a pain than an added element of the experience. However, strictly speaking giving Bubbles a different movement function would be unique.

I think Bubbles should place down her poles (on the ground or in the air). Grabbing them will allow her to spin in place and launch left or right at tremendous speeds adding to her momentum. Without her poles, she should be a slow character. In essence her poles would function as the opposite to Diddy's bananas. While Diddy's bananas slowed down opponents, Bubbles poles would speed her up.

Her sound wave could be a damaging projectile, but I think it also should help her movement game. If her sound wave hits a pole, the pole spins from vertical to horizontal, allowing Bubbles to launch herself down or up at tremendous speed. Thus, she could set the stage up to be faster than Sonic if she places her poles and utilizes them with her waves just right.

Her Up B could be a pixelated black hole that appears a Fox Illusion's length above her. It slowly sucks things (directly below him) upwards. But if anything touches the black hole, they are spiked downwards.

I think Bubbles would have to be based on momentum and keeping her fast and dangerous.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Yes, pole placement to buff her speed and allow her stage control is new and advanced players would flock to such a mechanic. However, her design is somewhat simple, has been done before with Jiggs and Kirby (and would be similar to Pac-Man if he is in). Also, her design really limits her A input moveset.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
A momentum character using items has not been done. Opposite of Diddy. Buffs herself instead of nerfing the opponent's speed.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
Her specials can be unique. And in a game of movement, a moveset focused on accelerating movement is interesting. Her A attacks though might be pretty generic.

4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Her specials can be. But the rest of her moves may not be so eye-popping. One way to make her A moves more exciting is having some send the opponent in the opposite direction. So a front him would send them behind Bubbles and a back hit would send them in front of Bubbles.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Visually she doesn't stand out as much as other characters.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Her specials can be designed to make her a force based on momentum. Some of her A moves can have reverse hitting properties to make her stand out.

Uniqueness Rating: B - to B +
Her specials can be interesting. But can her A moves hold up? And would people like a character with slow speed that requires a buff? Can that be fun? She would probably have to be designed for advanced players.

I don't see how drifting is counter-intuitive to Smash considering Smash is designed to be fast paced and crazy, especially with multiplayer. I think maybe some of you guys are misunderstanding what I meant with the drifting. You can still change direction, so if you feel you are going to slide off a cliff simply hit the control stick in the other direction. Because movement is a big part of a character and should be a big part of her if she is a fighter I actually feel this alone makes it easier for her to flow into attacks quickly. As I said before, how much she drifts would be based on what you are doing (running, slowly walking, normal walking) I can also imagine something like shielding could make her stop faster if needed.

I think having the poles appear whenever she does the move and then disappear after is better than placing them because:
A) The fact that there would probably only be able to be a set amount out at a time would limit her movement. Placing them requires strategy and since this is a big part of her (movement) it needs to be able to be done quickly and this can be handicapping her (if she can't take out any more). You also have to consider stages that are quite large, if there is a set amount it would be almost impossible for her to be used efficiently considering there is no possible way to strategically place a set amount on stages such as these.
B) Combos would have the ability to be pulled off much faster if you can spawn one whenever.
C) I feel a simple directional input would be easier and faster than having to shoot the pole to determine what direction she flies.
D) A movement trapper hybrid (the 2 go very well together) has potential for other placing moves that could limit space. This, being a Smash game, there isn't necessarily a way that you can completely limit space (a character has more options to get out of a "trap" in this game). This being said, spawning them would work a lot better for a trapper (or semi-trapper). Also, if 2 of her special moves were to be placing something... I think that would be a little underwhelming.

I understand the concern for her normal moves to be generic but if Sakurai gave Ice Climbers ice powers I don't think it is entirely out of the question that Bubbles can get water moves (being a fish and all). Due to the body frame, it also makes her capable of pulling off "weird movements/attacks" than say someone like Captain Falcon.


Other than that though, very good analysis.

 

[BluePikmin11]

When Bubbles attempts to stand, I think a pole should appear that bubbles can use to stay still while circling around the pole, I think the character could really work.

 

[Louie G.]

Personally I can't see Mach making it in without his bike.
Sakurai had an idea back in the Melee days about a mount character very similar to Mach: Excitebiker. He scrapped the idea because it wasn't working out, but as Villager shows he likes to go back to old ideas. And with the Wii U's power I feel like a mount character has a chance this time, the most likely option being Mach.
Now Sakurai did say it was tough, but it's not impossible. I feel that Mach Rider can just be a TERRIBLE character in the air, one of the worst in the game, but great and speedy on the ground. I'll post some moveset ideas in a bit, I hope I've got through to some of you.
I think being a mount character can potentially put Mach in the A+ or even S Tier of uniqueness.

 

[ToothiestAura]

I don't think Bubbles would be slow. She should be around Sheik level fast and rise to Captain Falcon level fast using the poles. She seems like the most unique character we analyzed yet, and before that she would be the last retro I would choose. Now I want her so badly because she could be fun. And she is a female. We need more females.

Good that this topic might actually be doing what it's supposed to be doing. Making us actually consider who adds more to the games in terms of playstyle rather than looking solely at who seems the most popular choice.

 

[FirstBlade]

Good that this topic might actually be doing what it's supposed to be doing. Making us actually consider who adds more to the games in terms of playstyle rather than looking solely at who seems the most popular choice.

I hope some of you guys can see why I was very excited for these 2 retros now.

Personally I can't see Mach making it in without his bike.
Sakurai had an idea back in the Melee days about a mount character very similar to Mach: Excitebiker. He scrapped the idea because it wasn't working out, but as Villager shows he likes to go back to old ideas. And with the Wii U's power I feel like a mount character has a chance this time, the most likely option being Mach.
Now Sakurai did say it was tough, but it's not impossible. I feel that Mach Rider can just be a TERRIBLE character in the air, one of the worst in the game, but great and speedy on the ground. I'll post some moveset ideas in a bit, I hope I've got through to some of you.
I think being a mount character can potentially put Mach in the A+ or even S Tier of uniqueness.

It is certainly a good idea...I actually think Sakurai was joking about his reasoning for Excitebiker though. I mean, "ramps need to be on every stage" sounds very silly if you ask me. I also hope he was joking because Bubbles was one of those 4 characters he "ruled out". The reason he gave for her was that "she doesn't really know how to fight". This is just a terrible excuse considering he added the likes of Game and Watch, Villager and WFT (proof that if it was once true, he changed his mind?)

Edit: I'm actually a little torn now, because I don't consider Bubbles likely...which is sad, because she can be really unique. I think Mach Rider has a pretty good chance though.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

Bubbles would, in my opinion, actually be quite a logical inclusion as a retro character. Clu Clu Land was probably always more popular than Ice Climber (until Melee, at least), so she's not completely ruled-out. Nintendo seems to like the game. It's referenced and ported all the time. It got item and remixed music representation in Brawl, and makes frequent appearances in WarioWare microgames. Bubbles was even playable in DK: King of Swing.

 

[FirstBlade]

Bubbles would, in my opinion, actually be quite a logical inclusion as a retro character. Clu Clu Land was probably always more popular than Ice Climber (until Melee, at least), so she's not completely ruled-out. Nintendo seems to like the game. It's referenced and ported all the time. It got item and remixed music representation in Brawl, and makes frequent appearances in WarioWare microgames. Bubbles was even playable in DK: King of Swing.

Oh my goodness! How could I forget about DK:KoS. That game was clearly inspired by the gameplay of Clu Clu Land, I had no idea she was in it though! Also didn't know about the WarioWare thing. Heck, this means she is actually on par then with the cameos of Balloon Fighter and the Ice Climbers. I think she had a trophy in Melee as well. (a little behind probably...Nintendoland comes to mind.) However, Sakurai said the retro he was adding was a easily revivable franchise which worries me. I can see Clu Clu Land as a puzzle-platformer but with the current ensemble of platformer games and the fact that there isn't a lot of potential for a CCL revival (at least, when compared to Murusame Castle and Mach Rider) I'm not sure what to think.

 

[FirstBlade]

Just thought I'd post these since it fits with what we are discussing. They both are quite catchy!

 

[Shorts]

Mach Rider - B Tier

Pros
- Could use a Mount and Unmount Bike system

Cons
- He could be a Wario/Snake/Falcon mix. Especially since real guns are a no-go

Bubbles - A Tier

Pros
- Use the spindles to bounce off of
- She could be the only character to plant these bars she could use to launch herself off of ect.

 

[Cpt.]

Although I don't know these retros, based off of the posts about them they seem pretty unique especially bubbles.

Bubbles : B+ to A Tier

Mach Rider: B- to B Tier

 

[BluePikmin11]

Shall we end this day?

 

[ToothiestAura]

Shall we end this day?

We can do it unofficially to keep the topic rolling.

 

[FirstBlade]

Has Louie G. gone rogue or something, it's getting pretty late....

 

[ToothiestAura]

Has Louie G. gone rogue or something, it's getting pretty late....

The hype for tomorrow's direct probably killed him.

 

[Bowserlick]

Should we rank Dixie just in case she is revealed today to see how on close we can get? I say yes.

Dixie Kong
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Dixie has several possible routes. One is to resurrect the Diddy/Dixie tagteam mechanic, either by slapping Dixie onto Diddy or to by slapping another Kong onto Dixie. If Dixie does have a Donkey Kong Kountry Tagteam Mechanic she really can fall high on the uniqueness chart.

The other possibility is that she comes into the game by herself. In this case, she may have a chance of being a pseudo-clone of Diddy. Either borrowing some of his movement animations or having different takes on his specials or A moves. But then again, she might have different moves and movement animations all together.
So if she gets in alone what possibilities does she offer?
A.) In either case, Dixie would most certainly bring in her hair glide in some capacity. I can see it acting like Peach's Umbrella, but perhaps the move would be a built in mechanic utilized while jumping and can be attacked out of the animation. Thus Dixie can fall normally, or slow fall while gaining horizontal distance. Of course, if the spin is built into a special there might be much more similarity to Peach's Umbrella.

B.) Her A attacks could utilize her hair. One of her specials could be a command throw using her hair. She also could use her hair as a propeller or spring to launch her flailing body at her opponent. So there is plenty of variability compared to Diddy available, although I am sure she might use her limbs in come capacity.

C.) Her B moves can feature either the bubble gum she chews or her Gum Ball Gun. Her hair can be featured in Side B or Up B. She can even borrow Squawks for her Up B without the move seeming like a stretch. Maybe she can ride a rolling Barrel, but that move could be a bit of a stretch although has potential to be fun and useful.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
An almost guaranteed gliding mechanic in some capacity and a possible tagteam mechanic with Diddy does raise her maximum level of uniqueness quite high. On the other end of the spectrum, she might be a Lucas-type pseudo-clone (and this could happen even if she is paired with Diddy). But I have to say that Dixie has potential. Will it be used?

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
A DK style tagteam has not quite been done. Her hair gliding mechanic can have similarities to Peach's Umbrella and gliding. And a fighter using their hair as their weapon of choice has not been done.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
I think Dixie could put a new spin on any similar move to the cast.

4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Dixie's mid-range strategy involving her hair and gliding tricks can be interesting. I see her as a character that beginners can explore after the easier characters have been tried to practice slightly more advanced techniques. And if she has a tagteam mechanic (although irritating Diddy fans) she can have even more depth and perhaps entertainment.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
She might have some similarity to Diddy in terms of body structure, but she has long yellow hair.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
The tagteam mechanic would be a throwback to the SNES days. Now the tagteam mechanic consists of being an upgrade to DK. Still, I think the old tagteam mechanic is still fitting. Her hair gliding is needed. Some other moves may have to borrow from the game such as Squawks or Barrel-riding. But even DK and Diddy had specials based on their animal qualities (DK's brutish headbutt and Diddy's monkey grab) that did not come from their games.

Uniqueness Rating: Tagteam = A to S, Alone = B - to A -
Dixie has a big range of possibilities. With a tagteam mechanic she really could shine in the highest bracket. Alone she has possibilities of a psudeo-clone, but she really does not have to be. She does have physical characteristics and features of her games to draw moves from.

Moveset

Spoiler

Dixe Kong
Innate ability: Like Peach the jump button can be held. If this happens, Dixie will descend slower while twirling her hair and gain the ability to move back and forth.

Specials

Up B Squawks: Appears above in a burst of feathers and grabs Dixie's pony tail. There is a small vertical jolt when the parrot seizes her hair. Squawks can then navigate freely. A press of A will have him shoot out a nut from his mouth. Eventually he will let go and fly away or a press of the jump button will have Dixie freefall away from his talons.

Down B Bubble Gum (inspired by Shorties Dixie Kong moveset): Holding Down B will cause Dixie to blow a pink bubble which swells and slowly raises Dixie Kong off the ground. A release of Down B will cause the bubble gum to fly off in a descending arc. Anyone hit with it will pop up as it explodes, but if it collides with a wall or floor the gum will become a sticky puddle. An enemy that collides with it will become temporarily stuck.
The puddle eventually disappears over time or if Dixie uses another bubble.

Toward B Barrel roll: Dixie flips upside down and during the rotation grabs a DK barrel out of hammer space and runs in place on top of it. The longer she goes in one direction, the faster the barrel rolls.

*Can change direction if the barrel is not going too fast, otherwise she can tumble off. The barrel will smash if it collides with a wall or character. Dixie can jump off. Though it is slower to execute if the barrel is going fast. A clever Dixie can slow down the speed of the barrel by slowly going one way then another, then jumping off. The barrel will be stationary and become an item she can pick up.

In the air, Dixie gains a bit of a pop as she takes the barrel out and runs on top of it. But she cannot jump off until she hits the ground. Barrel can bounce.

B Hair Grab: Dixie swings her hair hair back and then forward when it becomes a grab. When the tip connects with the foe, the hair wraps around the enemy.

Aerial: Constricts immediately and pops the enemy upwards.

Ground: Wraps around enemy and then unwinds sending the enemy forward as he or she twirls really fast. The enemy gains control of the movement as momentum wanes down. The higher the percentage, the faster and longer the spin. The enemy cannot jump or perform moves.

Attacks
A: Pivots her hips forward to deliver a butt attack. Good bounce.

Tilt A: Supports her body with a one hand, as she kicks forward with both feet and then slinks back into a stand position

Crouch: Low on all fours with her head tilted and her long pony tail laying on the floor trailing parallel to her body.

Down A: Swishes her pony tail forward low on the floor. The tip pushes away, the middle pops the enemy, and the base can trip if hit just right

Up A: Supports her body with a curved pony tail, leans back, and performs a back flip with one leg extra extended. Big hitbox, but comes with lag.

Dash A: Performs a grounded helicopter pony tail attack.

Up Smash: Looks at screen and head bangs once shooting her pony tail straight up. Knocks opponents away and the tip can grab them, pulling them back to the stage to bounce off the floor.

Down Smash (inspired by BirthNote's drawing): Jolts her neck to the side and slaps her ponytail hard against the floor behind her, then jolts her neck to the other side slapping the floor once more with her ponytail. Good clear move and could KO at higher percentages

Forward Smash: Spins her hair behind her like a giant blond fan propelling her toward the enemy as she swings an accelerated punch. Goes far with decent power.

Aerial Attacks

Forward Aerial: Leans back and does a succession of bicycle kicks (five total kicks, last hits the hardest)

Down Aerial: Looks at screen and slaps downward with both open palms, which leads into a somersault and another double open palm slap

Up Aerial: Flips upside down, holds her beret with both hands, scrunches like a spring and kicks straight up

Back Aerial: Locks hands together forming a hammerfist and flips backwards smashing her interlocked hands on the opponent's head. Hits down and away. Reverse DK forward aerial. But less powerful.

Neutral Aerial: Split in the air

Throws
Grab: Grabs with hands. Open grab she jumps on opponent's head and wraps her hair around their body.
Jab: Pounds a fist on their head

Forward throw: Starts wildly slapping their head. Can control the opponent's movement at this point by moving them forward or backwards. At the end, Dixie is shrugged off into the air by opponent.

Down Throw: Dixie leaps into the air, her hair (still wrapped around the enemy) pulls her body back down, crashing onto the opponent's head sending them into the floor

Back Throw: Jumps off in front of opponent and hoists them above her head (like how she holds a barrel) and then tosses them. KO potential.

Up Throw: Flips off opponent and hoists them straight upwards with her ponytail before releasing.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Emergency rating day!
Diddy Dixie Rating: A
Dixie on her own: A-
Cranky Kong rating: C

 

[Louie G.]

Alright, let's end this day once and for all.

Mach Rider, although I put out the idea of a mount character, didn't impress you guys, who consider him to be in the B Tier of Uniqueness. I disagree, but this isn't all about me.

Bubbles on the other hand, left quite the mark! Many of you were intrigued by the idea of a trap character and her pole swinging gameplay, putting her in A Tier.

Today we are having a special: DK DAY! We will rate Dixie, Diddy/Dixie, and (gulp) Cranky Kong.

 

[Cpt.]

Dixie Kong

I really don't understand why everyone is rating Dixie Kong so high. If she comes in by herself (which I am sure everyone would like better than to be paired with Diddy), then the reality of it is that she would be designed as a semi-clone. It may hurt for some people to have to realize this, but she would be a D Tier in terms of uniqueness. If for some bizarre reason Sakurai put extra care into making her than he did Falco, Wolf, Lucas, T. Link, OR GANONDROF, then I could see her getting as high as C Tier. By her self that is the highest that Dixie Kong could achieve. Maybe, maybe she could get C+ in the face of absolute improbability.

However, if she is given a tag-team mechanic, then she could get as high as A+ tier with the Ice Climbers (maybe A/B+ Tier depending on how similar she would be to them).

So

Alone: D - C

Together: B+ - A+

If we want to average that, it would be D+ and A making her a C+

 

[BluePikmin11]

The reason she's so high is that her specials involve her hair, her Helicopter and other potential moves would be completely different from Diddy's, and her hair would be used in more normal attacks. That's why it's hard to call her a semi-clone of Diddy despite similar body proportions.
Which is why I gave her an A-.

 

[Louie G.]

I give Dixie a C, easily.
If Luigi and Wolf are C Tier then Dixie is C Tier as well. 'Nuff said.
She would act and play like Diddy, with a different special (Hair-copter), and some unique basic attacks.
But a few hair attacks isn't enough to make Dixie stand out.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Alright, let's end this day once and for all.

Mach Rider, although I put out the idea of a mount character, didn't impress you guys, who consider him to be in the B Tier of Uniqueness. I disagree, but this isn't all about me.

Bubbles on the other hand, left quite the mark! Many of you were intrigued by the idea of a trap character and her pole swinging gameplay, putting her in A Tier.

Today we are having a special: DK DAY! We will rate Dixie, Diddy/Dixie, and (gulp) Cranky Kong.

At least we got K. Rool out of the way.

Dixie (on her own): C Tier
She has potential for unique specials with her hair moves and bubble gum but some of her A moves likely wouldn't be too different from Diddy's. Not covering a whole lotta new ground her own.

Diddy & Dixie: A Tier
Diddy is already a fairly unique, so a tag team can only help. I hope it doesn't take away his banana peels, though. Those were great for spacing and made him one of the few character capable of producing an item. However this tag team would work, Zelda/Sheik style, Ice Climbers style or something new altogether I can't see it becoming less unique.

Cranky Kong: C Tier
He could attack with his cane and would be fairly different from Diddy and Donkey, and canes are a unique weapon to Smash. But canes aren't entirely different from swords, at least in the way they would be wielded. Can't see a ton of potential here.

Dark horse candidate:
Funky Kong: B Tier
Funks has a lot of potential, man. In charge of various vehicle rental series across many different DK games, Funks could bring those vehicle to Smash in some form. They could make for some good recovery specials. IN DK64 Funks ran the weaponry, so he could make use of the weapons he sold: peanut popgun, coconut gun, feather bow, pineapple launcher and the grape shooter. He has slightly more potential than the other Kongs, it seems.

 

[Louie G.]

I would give Cranky a B, if not just for the Scrooge Cane.
I can't stress how fun that would be, even if I am completely against Cranky's inclusion (over K. Rool and Dixie).

 

[FirstBlade]

Was it really necessary to rate these characters just in case of the "potential" Direct reveal? We still have plenty of completely viable retros to do including Lip, Donbe and Hikari, Excitebiker, Sukapon and Sheriff.

EDIT: Hair attacks and Hairacopter does not seem like enough potential for an A Tier frankly. I'm sure she has more than that, but if I was to just base it on that it would probably be a C.

 

[Cpt.]

The reason she's so high is that her specials involve her hair, her Helicopter and other potential moves would be completely different from Diddy's, and her hair would be used in more normal attacks. That's why it's hard to call her a semi-clone of Diddy despite similar body proportions.
Which is why I gave her an A-.

Well if you look at most of the semi-clones, they have different attributes than who they clone
Ganondorf : C. Falc
Wolf: Fox
Falco: Fox
T. Link: Link

Diddy is still a semi-clone and not a clone because she would have an altered moveset (for about half her moves). She would still have the same attributes as Diddy.

I give Dixie a C, easily.
If Luigi and Wolf are C Tier then Dixie is C Tier as well. 'Nuff said.
She would act and play like Diddy, with a different special (Hair-copter), and some unique basic attacks.
But a few hair attacks isn't enough to make Dixie stand out.

Luigi is not a semi-clone despite what some people may think. He has different attributes and different moves aside from a few B moves.

Wolf should not be C tier. At most I'd put him at C-