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The Unexplored Frontier: Extended Suit Piece Metagame DISCUSSION

Nefarious B

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I just wanted to point something out about that disclaimer that you wrote above my camping quote in the OP. It's true that if you're trying to air camp with a suit piece, a CASP would ruin it.

My recommendation would be to toss one piece up at the start (this is the piece you will be camping with) and then be more aggressive than usual with the other two. In this case you aren't as worried about keeping the piece so much as building a % lead. If done correctly, you should have done some damage while not taking much yourself, and will have probably lost the other two pieces. This puts you into a perfect position to camp with the final piece, as the % lead that you built will force an opponent to approach you even if it puts them at a terrible disadvantage.
 

solecalibur

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My only input I suppose is when you spawn on RC if your on the left side you can (nonrunning) throw an armor piece then it throws back to you like you are playing catch with your self , if you have weegee's mansion on show why its broken because you can throw items and the pillar catches it forces your opponent to take down the house which is pretty easy to punish


Holding down then spaming the A button on your controler is pretty good it self to stall until they move since it refreshes the armor , on a neutral stage (dont do it on norfair I daired through the platform almost sd'd)
 

Nefarious B

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I remember someone saying 2 frames for a throw, though I don't know which throw that would be (uthrow has a noticably longer animation than dthrow for example). I'd be more interested in knockback growth, block stun and hitstun numbers on the pieces cause that would help with figuring out combos, though I suppose someone could just test them manually

I think it'd be useful for someone to test what we can do if we air release someone, pickup a nearby suitpiece, and glide toss it. It should open up some interesting options, and against characters that we can air release CG, you can cg them to the piece to set this up in the first place.
 
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Nefarious, glad you agree about the dthrow vs uthrow animations... I used to mix the two up or use uthrow because I like the way it looks, but I don't even bother anymore because of how much longer the animation is.

What I'd like to see talked about in this thread are patterns you guys use to start out each match. For instance my favorite thing to do is to throw all three up in match 1, and then in match 2, throw two up and then glide toss forward.
 

Nefarious B

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For me it's more patterns based on what map I'm on. For example I always do an instant throw with the first piece by dropping through the plat on BF. On brinstar I let loose with one or two aiming for the tendrils and bulbs. On FD I usually go for the wall technique, throw one up, one down then either the last one up or GT.
 

lllp3lll

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Really interesting idea trying to turn zss into an item character. I've started testing out using her Jab to block thrown CASPs over Netural B (which only pauses them), if the SP is thrown from a great enough distance its trajectory will fall under Jab's hitbox limiting the idea of camping with jab if your oppent gains control of your SPs.

Also peach's Nair can rip through a ASP wall changing them to ISP, maybe we should be on the look out for moves which counter our SP game.
 

TheRockSays

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I usually try to stay with one piece. The SP are very usefull against Falco, Fox, and wolf because if pick it up and try to run towards them they will use their reflector.Then at the point just use Side B.

Big no no trying to keep pieces with characters that have better item gliding such as ROB and Diddy. At soon as you you start the match try to throw all of them out or try your luck with one SP.
 

xxpatgxx

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In the beginning of a match I like to throw the first one down, throw the next piece forward, then after the opponent jumps towards you, I just glidetoss the final piece up in their direction, and if they dodge it, it's usually a free up B.
 

noradseven

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In the beginning of a match I like to throw the first one down, throw the next piece forward, then after the opponent jumps towards you, I just glidetoss the final piece up in their direction, and if they dodge it, it's usually a free up B.
this but I toss the first piece up as well.
 

ThreeSided

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Bump? Come on, there's got to be something more you guys have to contribute. The point of this thread is to get us thinking about ways to essentially turn ZSS into an item character. I really think it's doable, at least under certain circumstances.
 

noradseven

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Bump? Come on, there's got to be something more you guys have to contribute. The point of this thread is to get us thinking about ways to essentially turn ZSS into an item character. I really think it's doable, at least under certain circumstances.
You want to learn item manipulation go with your friends and play mario bros stage all day you'll get good item manipulation problem here though is then they can and will catch all your **** and toss it back at you or off the edge. Mario bros 3 is why I can fight Diddys so well.
 

Nefarious B

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Necroing this thread because A. It's a really good one and should be in our directory cough Dazwa and B. I have something new to bring to the table

I think we should look into how the pieces stale. I always though that whether you throw the piece, drop it, or if the opponent runs into a bouncing piece, that they would do different damage yet still stale the pieces as a whole. However, it seems this is not the case, and it'd help maximize damage if we can figure out how exactly this works.

What made me realize this was watching this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ibnopCDQfs&playnext_from=TL&videos=KvHms2h9Ghg look at how the damage on the zdrops actually increases as it should stale in the first few seconds. WTF is that about?
 

solecalibur

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....WHAAA?


btw cool idea if you get them off stage bounce the pieces so both get up attacks are blocked and you force them to get up through the air (or force them to plank)
 

#HBC | J

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btw cool idea if you get them off stage bounce the pieces so both get up attacks are blocked and you force them to get up through the air (or force them to plank)
I love doing this ;D

And wow that is really cool ;o

Also really nice read ^_^
 

Nefarious B

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SO I did a little bit of playing around with Z drops.

The damage of a zdrop is dependent on the distance it has fallen before hitting an opponent. The damage ranges from 5-9.

Z drop does not enter the stale move que as far as I can tell. It never stales itself. I tested it to see if it would affect a strong toss by dropping the piece on Mario many times, killing him, and then tossing it. The toss still does 11. So zdrop is like nair.

The other ******** thing I discovered, that will probably be a huge boon to our metagame, is that a zdrop shoots the opponent at a hard horizontal angle and in falling status, at 0 percent. That means it's very likely that they will land on the ground if they miss their tech, and it's extremely easy for us to follow and shoot a nB at them to jab lock. If we land the jab lock, we can proceed to do this combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hbf9Zcx4ME for absurd damage. If they do tech or airdodge we will likely get the nB to stun anyways and you can grab and continue suit piecing from there.

I tested this on Fox, Mario, and DDD, they all can be jab locked at 0 percent.

After further testing, it seems bouncing suitpieces can also set this up really well, and they are less influenced by knockback growth making this have a wider percentage range of viablity.

Wait loool dthrow glidetoss is like, the best jab lock setup you've ever seen. WTF why did we not know this before. Fthrow is also decent
 

Zero

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amazing amazing.

OK, so I was playing around with this in training mode. Basically it's the **** and is a theoretical 0-to-death on any character if they're near the ledge by the end of their ftilt lock.

HOW TO DO:

zdrop -> nB (best if buffered) -> glide toss armour piece down (to cover distance) -> ftilt x * -> dsmash x 2-3 -> aerial/dB
 

Nefarious B

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Your best setup into this is actually a downwards glidetoss, aim to hit them with the piece and they will fly almost with you, land in front of you if they didn't tech, perfect for a jab lock.

It's not gonna be a zero to death because they can DI down b into the stage. Your best bet is just to go for damage and edge guard from there. But this is a quick 85% with a very easy setup. In all honesty, the pieces just became broken.
 

-LzR-

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This stuff really helped out my Zamus, now I could actually keep my pieces long until my foes second or last stock and I could really pwn with them. Good read.
 

ThreeSided

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I come hear to check things out for the first time in ages only to find that my thread hasn't been completely abandoned, and is still appreciated. :')

Not gonna lie, I figured that because it had to do with SPs, this would die unless I kept really active with it (which obviously I didn't). Honestly, I've kinda been maining snake lately... but after this, I'm thinking I might start trying to main Suit Pieces. =D
 

Sovereign

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I come hear to check things out for the first time in ages only to find that my thread hasn't been completely abandoned, and is still appreciated. :')

Not gonna lie, I figured that because it had to do with SPs, this would die unless I kept really active with it (which obviously I didn't). Honestly, I've kinda been maining snake lately... but after this, I'm thinking I might start trying to main Suit Pieces. =D
You should definitely keep this thread alive. It will definitely help other ZSS mains understand that the correct usage of SPs will bring about an easy stock lead, or something better. SPs are only an advantage to ZSS, since those with reflectors become silly predictable, and we also have flipstool.
 

TheSaintKai

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Woah...
That SP - jab lock combo would really change our entire metagame if we could find a way to make that as consistent as possible.
Might push ZSS into A tier, even.
Good ****ing find, Nefarious.
 

ThreeSided

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Woah...
That SP - jab lock combo would really change our entire metagame if we could find a way to make that as consistent as possible.
Might push ZSS into A tier, even.
Good ****ing find, Nefarious.
Honestly, it looks awesome, except it's really just kinda a shenanigan.... I mean, couldn't people just learn to tech? Unless it's too fast. What do you guys think?
 

fkacyan

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I'm glad somebody could actually be bothered to make this post. I never got around to doing something like this because my resident items expert and I haven't been able to get together.

I might be able to support this thread with footage in the coming weeks.

I would like to remind everybody, however, that for every disgusting piece combo we have, every other character can also abuse them in similar, or worse, ways than we can, and that keeping control of them is paramount. This is harder than it sounds, though, because of how easy it is to catch the god**** things.

You should definitely keep this thread alive. It will definitely help other ZSS mains understand that the correct usage of SPs will bring about an easy stock lead, or something better. SPs are only an advantage to ZSS, since those with reflectors become silly predictable, and we also have flipstool
All three spacies tank a dump on ZSS. Armor pieces don't really help this at all.
 

TheSaintKai

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Honestly, it looks awesome, except it's really just kinda a shenanigan.... I mean, couldn't people just learn to tech? Unless it's too fast. What do you guys think?
You can tech just about anything. xD
They could, but it would be a near instantaneous tech, because of the weird trajectory they fly at. Plus, unlike some d-throw techs, (G&W, Snake) this isn't as predictable because the person flies longer at higher percentages.
They'd probably just mash shield, and hope.
 

TheSaintKai

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I would like to remind everybody, however, that for every disgusting piece combo we have, every other character can also abuse them in similar, or worse, ways than we can, and that keeping control of them is paramount. This is harder than it sounds, though, because of how easy it is to catch the god**** things.
This. ^^^^^
Edit: Sorry for double post.
 

Nefarious B

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I don't think they're easy to catch at all. Dthrow is our most useful throw anyways, both in the air and on the ground, and you're not gonna catch those
 

fkacyan

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I don't think they're easy to catch at all. Dthrow is our most useful throw anyways, both in the air and on the ground, and you're not gonna catch those
Anybody experienced with items will just leave large piles of crap all over your metaphorical doorstep.

I've played ADHD and people trained by him quite bit, their item control is ridiculous.

@Xonar: You shall feel my pain when Orion plays you.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Lol my ZSS is ineffective against anyone knowing the MU/knowing my playstyle. Not going into details, but my ZSS needs alotta work to be considered viable.
 

ThreeSided

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I've realized that one reason why this thread hasn't quite gone where I've wanted to go is because I'm asking for so many different things that the main idea of what I want gets lost in all the other little things.

The below is a reworked (much shorter) version of the OP in which I get straight to the core of what I want us to be discussing here. Everything else, all though vital to this idea, is not the main idea of this concept.

So yeah, please read all of the below, and give critisism/post your own ideas, etc.

Much like Snake uses his grenades to limit his opponent's options, throwing SPs up or down makes what are essentially "danger zones", which discourage passage. One of the biggest reasons that Snake has been so successful as a character is because of his versatile stage control abilities, particularly his grenades. Snake's grenades and our SPs are very [similar].

[The mian] way [in my mind] to do this would be to throw your SPs up. When suit pieces are up in the air, they function similarly to one of Snake's shield-dropped grenades: A hit box will appear in the spot you initiated the stage-control mechanism in a matter of seconds. Same concept: Stage control. But another difference is that they won't have a chance to throw them back until the hitbox reaches them, which takes time and effort to do correctly without getting hurt, and if you keep the pressure up, that most likely won't happen.

[Many people would see an obvious flaw in using the SPs like snakes grenades, in that doing this would not work at all.] It's not that the SPs don't work as a stage control game as well as Snake's grenades, it's just that they work differently and therefore would have to be used differently for stage control, but I do believe we can get the same or at least a similar advantage from our pieces if we use them right.

I'll start us off with a few of my ideas. I know people are flawed, and I kind of came up with these fairly quickly, so if you see any flaws, feel free to explain them and place your own input.

The idea behind this is that we would start our games much like Snakes play all the time: Use stage control to not only do damage, but force mistakes to punish. Glide tossing up would be an amazing thing here, allowing you to throw one piece up where you want, and glide over to where another is coming back down. It would make a good mind game to glide-toss a piece up, and then jump into the air, grab one on its way down that the opponent was keeping track of so it wouldn’t hit them, and then throw it down at them, or throw it down somewhere else to throw them off. Similarly, if you don't like where one of your pieces is in the air, or maybe you need another piece to use, just jump up and get it. Yes, this again. In theory, it's pretty safe if you know what you're doing. Down throw makes an amazing Dair. The problem is often what happens if your other pieces are on the ground when this happens. Your opponent could go right for them. This is why you constantly want your pieces in the air! I imagine sort of a stage-wide SP juggling operation. You would utilize your superior jumping ability and glide tossing to juggle your SPs all around the field as stage control, jumping up and grabbing pieces you’d like to re-position elsewhere or throw, maybe mind gaming the opponent with this on a regular basis, and in between these actions fighting your opponent that is in constant annoyance and danger of falling hunks of metal armor. Maybe even throw some flip-stools in there every blue moon when you need to move across the stage quickly but don’t have a piece in hand.

SP strategies would probably vary with stages and characters. For example, the technique I just described would probably work [well] on final destination, because jumping up to grab a piece would not result in ZSS landing on a platform where she would be vulnerable, and pieces would come straight to the ground where they are needed, but the technique would be very annoying to keep up on [rainbow cruise] because of all the [wierd moving]platforms, for the converse reasons. I imagine this working very well against snake, setting off his grenades and mines, as well as punishing and destroying many of his other attempts at stage control. As we move into bad characters for this strategy, irony ensues, because the strategy that works so well on FD would probably not work so well against Falco at all because of the reflector, and most of all, the lasers that aren’t going to be stopped by SPs, destroying the defensive aspect of our strategy. But this is why we need to work on this! I imagine dozens of variations of strategies that work from stage to stage and character to character, and that’s something we should really work on. Are you starting to understand why I find this so exciting?

I want you now to start thinking about different characters, and different stages. Experiment in practice mode. ... Remember, this is a discussion thread, not a lesson thread: I'm just trying to get your minds going. Look for things I may not have mention yet: I haven't brought out JCT's (Jump-Canceled-Throws) at all yet. What could we do with those? I hope by now I've helped you realize how unexplored this section of her metagame really is, and I want you to start exploring yourself.
I want to discuss this stuff just as we would normal character+stage specific discussion, only with SPs as the core of our metagame in mind, like the above.

Let's just start out by looking at the idea I have above in regard to final destination+snake. What do you guys think? Do you agree that this could actually work very well? If not, why? If yes, what other stages/characters do you think this could work similarly on?


You guys getting the gist of what I'm looking for here?
 

Nefarious B

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I duno, I think the suitpieces are a your mileage may vary kind of thing. Players who are familiar with them will not allow you any more than around a 50% lead from the pieces. In my experience, they're too easy to cancel to be extremely useful like other items. Think about it: nades? You can shield and they are still gonna blow up in 3 secs, if you attack them they blow up instantly. Nanners? You shield, they're gonna fall right back on top of you if you don't move or do something about them, if you attack them and don't time it perfectly you get hit.

Pieces? You shield them, and your problem is gone, if your goal is to just avoid them. As marth, you fair it and you are either gonna cancel them out or catch it.

They're good because they give us a good long ranged punish option, and most importantly an excellent approach. They're stage control however is not amazing if the player knows how to deal with it. If your opponent has good stage control of their own and gets a hold of your piece, it's much more dangerous than in your own hands. So for some matchups yes it's dangerous to use the pieces. Some matchups they ****. But I don't think they will ever be a "whole match" type of deal like you're suggesting here, just because of how easily they are turned inactive and then disposed of.
 

ThreeSided

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My technique dirrectly addresses those issues. By grabbing them on the way back down, you can switch things up from what they would usually expect. Basically, you're switching up between using them for stage control, and support.
 
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