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The Unexplored Frontier: Extended Suit Piece Metagame DISCUSSION

ThreeSided

Smash Ace
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
600
Location
USA, CT
Suit Piece Metagame Discussion

Returning to these forums after several months away, I was disappointed to find that appeal to ZSS as a competitive character has continued to drop, and was further yet despondent in the realization that the ZSS metagame has gone almost completely stale, producing no new strategies, ATs, or move intel whatsoever. So I kept wondering: What can we do about this? What are we missing? After reading some of the recent conversation in the general discussion thread, it hit me: Suit pieces.

Bear with me here. This is a portion of our metagame that is often overlooked and even thrown away: Many people throw away one, two, or all three of their armor pieces at the beginning of a match. Now I know what you're thinking: We've gone over this many times before. And we have, but hardly at all in depth. Every conversation started on the topic hardly lasts long at all, ending up as a tips-and-tricks thread which almost always ends on the note of "It's a double edged sword, it's good stuff to know, if you can't keep control, throw them away". In reality, it's not too hard to regain control if you do it right. I think there is a lot more to learn about this tricky and unique aspect of our character, and considering the inertia currently inherent to our characters metagame, we should really be looking into the complexities of this poorly explored frontier. I would not be at all surprised if we could make this an offensive thing, and make combos using suit pieces. This is NOT a tip thread, but a metagame development thread, where I want us to explore different aspects of this amazing feature. Below, I will be discussing some intel about suit pieces, and will point out certain ideas that I want you to keep in mind in hopes that it will spark your interest in the subject and cause you to think up new strategies yourselves. But this is only the beginning of getting your mind working: I will be asking questions; questions which I would like us to find the answers to. Some involve character intel, meaning you'll just have to turn on brawl and experiment with some move, and others will just make you think about it, and maybe try some stuff out. Either way, they should help boost the growth of this seemingly (and hopefully) large yet unexplored portion of Zero Suit Samus's potential. To organize it, I will list the questions out after each section. By answering these, I really hope to spring some life into this character. I will put any accurate answers we find under the question. Feel free to suggest additions to the list.

Basics

The basics are basically what we all already know: You should not be throwing Suit Pieces (SPs) willy-nilly, and hoping they hit. As you'll read later, it's not that hard to deal with pieces being thrown right at you if you know what you are doing. In actuality, it is often a game of stage control, which I believe, as you will read later, has the potential to turn offensive. There's the obvious stuff, like not throwing all of your pieces at once or throwing some off, throw them up/down rather than straight forward, etc, but it gets much more complicated than that, and much more useful. Nothing much else to say here. I'm not going to bother to put a questions list for this one.

The Suit Pieces

ARMOR PIECES

At the beginning of the match you start off with 3 pieces of Samus's broken armor. These pieces are incredibly strong. You want to keep these away from your opponent as much as possible. A strong throw will do 11% damage and kill earlier than any other move that ZSS possesses, even charged smashes. There are many strategies that you can do with your armor and everyone has some preferred method of using them. This is just a basic outline of the sort of tricks you can do.​
When a SP has not been thrown/dropped by a character, it is INACTIVE. Inactive Suit Pieces, or ISPs, have absolutely no effect on their surroundings or each other. When a piece is dropped or thrown, however, it becomes ACTIVE. An Active Suit Piece, or ASP, has a very high priority hitbox around it, which does good damage and has a lot of KB. SPs can be made into ASPs by either you or your opponent. Pro-Active Suit Pieces (PASPs) are ISPs converted into an ASP by you, whereas Con-Active Suit Pieces (CASPs) were converted by your opponent. When a PASP and a CASP collide in any way (up, down, side, etc) they cease any movement they were doing and drop to the floor. However, they remain ASPs of their respective types, and therefore still have hitboxes until they finish bouncing, at which point they revert back to ISPs.

When an ASP hits an opponent in any way, it instantly becomes an ISP, even though it hasn't finished bouncing. Not quite true! Apparently, the hitboxes around the SPs are the type that can't hit the same hurtbox more than once while they are active, so they may very well still be ASPs while bouncing, but just not acting as a hitbox for anyone they already hit.This also applies to shields, and parts of a character that do not have a hurtbox, such as parts of hitboxes of many attacks. If the hitbox is perfectly in line with the hurt box (as in it's not disjointed, but lines up perfectly with the ends of the hurtbox), then it counts as a hit with the hitbox, rather than the hurtbox. When an ASP comes into contact with a hitbox like this or more disjointed, some moves cancel, or stops all together, preventing any ending lag that would have otherwise occurred from move. Some moves, however, do not cancel, but only pause for a moment before continuing. On shields, however, the SP bounces away from you, whereas on your body/hitbox, it drops where it hits you.

Each SP has a sort of "timer" on it that goes up to twenty-two seconds. This timer begins as soon as the match begins, and pauses when the SP is picked up or turned into an ASP, and then continues to run its timer when it reverts back to an ISP. Once the timer reaches nineteen seconds, the pieces begin to flash. These pieces are called "Faded" pieces. When converted to ASPs (call it a FASP? Or is that just taking it too far? =P), faded pieces do less damage, and have less knock back. At twenty-two seconds, the ISPs disappear.

Questions

What happens when ASPs collide with other projectiles? Do they bounce away, or drop? Do they stay active as they bounce on the ground, or turn into ISPs?


Which moves of ours cancel with the CASPs? (List not finished - I just put in the ones I know)
Uair
1st Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Jab, ftilt, grounded sideB... I think that's all of our moves that completely cancel out when they hit a CASP and turn them into ISPs.

Which of our moves only pause?
Usmash
Fsmash, usmash, nair, uair, bair, upB, neutral B... These moves stop ASPs and turn them into ISPs, but don't cancel and still have afterlag.
What about cancels with the attacks of other characters?

Pauses of moves of other characters?

Do the SPs get weaker the longer they've been fading? If so, by how much?

Defensiveness/keeping control/IT'S NOT THAT RISKY PEOPLE.

I'm putting this out there first because it is essentially the biggest controversy and limiting factor of the Suit Piece Game (Hereby dubbed SPG). The common phrase used is "double edged sword", expressing that SPG can be easily turned against you if you don't know what you're doing, or even then, when you do know what you're doing (though obviously not as likely).

The first step to keeping control is not to rush things. If you throw all the pieces straight forward at once, then you've lost all control over your pieces unless you can rush over there before your opponent gets to them. Try to control the stage in such a way that you keep control of your pieces. Throwing pieces up or down over a pile of pieces can be effective. One idea that I had: We like to keep our pieces fresh by throwing them around, right? But that can be dangerous, because they can fall into your opponents hands. But if we throw them up, then we're good! ZSS can jump very high, one of if not the highest in the game, and even if she's not the highest jumper, she definitely gets up there the fastest. If we take it upon ourselves to learn the timing of a falling up-thrown SP, then we can easily jump up and get it when we feel like it... or not, and have stage control, which I'll get into in the next section. "But Triangle Man, you'd be putting yourself above them, in the perfect juggling position!" You'd want to grab it higher up, using your superior jump height and climb speed to get at it where they can’t reach you. "But then they'll just get you as you come down! Juggle city!" Fend them off. "With what!? The only move we have that reaches below us is Dair, and that sucks! So punishable!" Actually, in this situation, we are perfectly equipped with an amazing move with high priority, great range, and amazing disjointedness, that reaches below us and has a great knock-back to clear them away. "lolwut." It's called DOWN THROW. Most people will actually stay away from below you, expecting this. But if they don't, then don't throw down right away. If you do and they shield it, you're screwed. Treat it as a really disjointed Dair: Wait until you're right above them, then Dair away. If they shield, DI appropriately and Bair them in the face or shield for shield pressure. "Fine. But what if they come at you from the side as you land, or with aerials in the air?" As you land, you can drop or down throw to make that sexy wall of priority we all know and love, and DI behind it. Follow that up with a Uair if you want to discourage an aerial assault, but I wouldn't bother, because if they try to come at you from above, well... you just put yourself above a Zamus, dude. =P You can also Bair/Dair if that doesn't work. Keep in mind that there's a good chance that landing one of these moves will lead them into the bouncing SP. If they come at you from the side in the air, or even from above (I don't know how, just putting it out there just in case), you can either throw the piece at them, or Z-drop into an aerial. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's when you press Z to drop an item, and then immediately do an aerial, which in turn causes you to pick up the item again. It's basically doing aerials while holding items. You can also do this with an air-dodge. You happy? "No." Shut the **** up. Anyway, that's just an idea of mine. I'd like to hear what else you guys have to say about keeping your pieces together, so I'll make that a question!

One thing I notice is how scared people are of the opponent using their SPs against them when they do lose control. Honestly, it's usually not much of a threat. If there's any issue, it's that some of them get smart and throw your pieces away. That's the real reason you don't want them to get your pieces. But if they get a hold and decide they want to hit you back with them, then don't sweat it. They almost always just throw them straight back, one way or another, and the thing about straight-throwing the suit pieces is that as long as you keep your distance, they're only really deadly or even detrimental if you're using unnecessary attacks, or if you have the habit of rolling/spot dodging and jumping when they have your pieces. Otherwise, they can easily be shielded. You just need to try your best to keep your distance so you have time to react, not roll around so much or jump, and limit your other actions such as attacking to a minimum to limit the amount of time you are left open to being hit. You can also catch them when thrown. This can be hard standing still, and doing it with an aerial or an air-dodge can set you up for being hit by another one during landing lag. However, you can also catch a SP with a DA, right out of the air. If you can do it safely, then go ahead, but here's the real kicker: Our 1 frame neutral jab cancels with the suit pieces. This is in fact much more effective than shielding and DA catching, because it is essentially lag free, and the SP actually drops in front of you instead of bouncing away like it does on your shield. So if they throw, just hold A. If you don't want to shield but want the piece a bit further away for whatever reason, you can also cancel with Ftilt fairly easily. Utilt can take care of those from above, but it's hard to time. Uair is easier, but again, if they have more pieces, it might not be smart to be in the air. Usmash makes it very easy to get the pieces from the air, but it doesn't cancel, so all the extra lag makes this an unrecommended option. Remember that if you have a SP, then you can throw it and cancel them out! But remember that they remain ASPs after a collision like that, so it will make a little wall there for both of you. That dividing line can be dangerous. Always throw it hard in that situation, because you want to make "your half" of the stage larger, to give you more control. I don't know yet if Dtilt cancels with a SP, but if it does, then that would be perfect for removing "your opponent's side" of the wall from the equation as they bounce. You can try to attack through the wall too. I believe that side-b only pauses for the piece, and that makes it stay out longer, so that'd be good, other than the increased in frames for the move, which could make it punishable. If Fsmash cancels, that'd be hilarious, honestly. Fsmash with no ending lag? Fun! If you get caught in the air when your opponent has a piece and you're about to land, you can risk the air-dodge to shield that often fails, or you can try to cancel it with a meaty Nair. If you have a piece in hand too, though, dropping it right before you land to make a little shield to DI behind is effective, and possible hold A as you land to protect the upper half of your body. If you ever find your opponent in the air with a SP, you could try to punish by throwing your own, but they’d likely throw theirs back. You might want to consider glide tossing up at the right moment to limit their aerial movement, and then hyphen Usmash as you come under them. If they try to throw the piece down at us (they’re learning!), the Usmash Neutralizes it, and doesn’t cancel, so they are likely to get hit. This comes with the risk, however, of them DIing to the opposite side from which you came, and punishing your extended-frame Usmash from the side. But it it does land, then they’re up in the air without a piece, and likely vulnerable to a Uair juggle. If you can do all of this, then you should be good. But if you do get hit, then for the love of god, TECH. And I mean tech UP, not tech ROLL. If you end up on the floor, you're bound to get hit rolling up or even just standing up. ROLLING IS ALWAYS BAD. Don't force yourself into that. If you end up holding on to the edge, that's the hardest one. Rolling on is stupid, of course, and standing up can be dangerous. Get up attack would probably be fine, but I'd like someone to check that out for me. Just hold A so you can cancel any pieces that are thrown afterwards. Ledge hopping is very dangerous if they predict it, but otherwise, it's too fast to react to. Theoretically speaking, drop down to rising Nair sounds very safe, and then you can try to land in one of the ways mentioned before. Same with the jump-get-up. In both cases, you could try to land with a Nair to cancel any other pieces they may have. If you're on the edge, and they throw a piece, it might be smart to drop down and re-grab, since the SPs can hit you on the edge. If you want it, you can drop down and hop up and do a Uair to catch/cancel it. If you really want to do something flashy, though possibly risky, you can ledge-hop to flip-stool the SP.

Regaining control is about as simple as blocking or canceling suit pieces thrown at you, and gathering others that missed/you were able to swipe away. Also realize that at times the best way to regain control is to be aggressive and actually attack the *******.

Questions

What other techniques are really good for keeping control of your suit pieces?
Picking up the Pieces
Armor pieces are items and can be picked up in all the same ways. Walking over to it and pressing A will do but this is often the least desirable method because you are standing still and open to attack. A dash attack over the piece is the standard method of picking a piece up off the ground. It's fast and won't interrupt the flow of your play. This can also catch an armor piece that is thrown at you but it is difficult to time precisely and often you miss and get hit. From the air there are varied options.
You know how when you press Z in the air, you airdodge? Well when you press the Z button while close to an item, you catch it WITHOUT going into airdodge animation, leading to instant grab-and-throws. Lightning-fast item game can come from this. Throwing down and using an aerial to catch items is not the only option, throwing down an item, catching it as it is bouncing then throwing it down again before touching the ground is also possible. Falling close to the ground empty-handed on an item then pressing Z as you're about to touch the floor, you pick up the item and are still in the air when you do... And, you can also throw an item on a platform, then jump through it, press Z, and instantly throw it anywhere without having to resort to an aerial, making it another option if aerials/airdodges would get punished... Oh! A very important use for z-catching, is throwing down items near the ledges when your opponent is grabbing the ledge (while you retreat to a safe distance), then z-catching the item and throwing it down again with no visible openings at all, thanks to the piece's active hitbox! And these are only from the top of my head!

Z-catching can also enable extended offstage item usage. If usually throwing armor pieces offstage to hit your opponent would mean that it's a good edgeguard but now the item's gone, you can now jump off, zcatch and immediately jump/upB without having to wait for any animations to end, nor risking missing the item and wasting time trying to catch something that probably was impossible to catch otherwise.

So, z-catching lets you catch items (even thrown items by the opponent) without dodging or using an aerial attack.
You might want to look into stage specifics as well. A small stage can be good, but equally bad. Smaller stage means people have less space to avoid the SPs from. However, it also means that in order to keep your SPs on stage without the risk of throwing them over, you have to be more careful with your suit pieces.

For example, if you play on YI, no matter where you stand from, the SPs if thrown will simply bounce off the stage if it isn't stopped by something. So throwing SPs will have its risks on YI. You also have the same problem regarding Zdropping, throwing down or up. Depending if the SP hits an angle, it will more than likely bounce its way offstage. So, YI is pretty much the last stage you probably want to bring someone too if you want to maximize the usage of the SPs. So, I say expect to Stage Strike it when you can.

Also, even though RC is a great CP for ZSS as I am told by many people, SPs potiential would probably be ruined after the ship part.
When the piece is in the air, all aerials will pick an armor part up as well as an air dodge or grab. The grab is special because if you pick up the piece at the very beginning there is no lag and you can immediately do anything else. When a piece is lying on the ground and you are in the air you can pick it up as if it was in the air. If an opponent is standing near the piece it is possible to use an air attack that both hits the opponent and picks up the piece at the same time. Nair, Fair, and Uair work well for this and Bair can work but there is only a 1-2 frame window to do it properly. Dair will also work but the landing lag makes this an undesirable option.

If the opponent is not standing near the piece it is often best to use an air-dodge or Uair to pick it off the ground because they have the least landing lag.
The last method is very useful in certain circumstances: If you are standing next to an armor piece and your opponent is approaching you in the air you can jump and immediately do a rising aerial that will pick up the piece and hit your opponent in the process.
You can also use the tendrils on either side of the stage to make f and bthrow more usable, as they will stop the piece from flying off the stage (though they sometimes still bounce through).

Brinstar also has uneven floor that can be used similarly to yoshi's or lylat, though Ill admit I haven't played around with this at all.
What other techniques are really good for surviving a swap in control?

What other techniques are really good for regaining control?

Stage Control and General Suit Piece Management

Of the three aspects of our SPG that I believe can be greatly evolved, I think this one is the most plausible and important. It is commonly known that the number one way to utilize your SPs is for stage control. Much like Snake uses his grenades to limit his opponent's options, throwing SPs up or down makes what are essentially "danger zones", which discourage passage. One of the biggest reasons that Snake has been so successful as a character is because of his versatile stage control abilities, particularly his grenades. Snake's grenades and our SPs are very much the same thing, in that they are items which have a "timer" on them (grenades have timed explosions, and SPs have both the fade timer and a time they remain ASPs), are great for stage control, and can be thrown for good effect. We both have many options as to how to use our items for stage control (direct throw/shield-drop/up-throw/counter, direct throw/down-throw/up-throw/z-drop), and also both have a good way of preventing them from being used effectively against us (he has grenade stripping, we have 1st jab + other canceling moves and superior jumping ability), and can time our throws to our great advantage (cooking grenades, timing up-throws). But there are some key differences that change things a lot, for the better and the worse. Unlike grenades, SPs do not have a large blast radius. However, when "active", the hitbox of the ASP lasts longer than that of the grenade, allowing for a prolonged "danger" effect. Whereas snake can only have two grenades out at a time, we have all three of our SPs at once if we want, and can reuse them consistently, but unlike his grenades, we can't create new ones once they disappear. Snake has to be careful with his own thrown grenades, because they can hurt him too. We only have to worry about that if the opponent gets a hold on them, and it's actually not that hard to deal with. Grenades always have the same KB relative to percent, but our SPs have lower KB when they start fading. This can be both a good and bad thing, which we'll get more into later. Ours have a constant hitbox that does more than 1 damage when it connects, and with horizontal KB to get them off stage, working our gimping abilities. His have to explode to do KB, and it's vertical, which actually works better for him too, since snake doesn't really gimp, but is good with star KOs. As they get close to the end of their timer, snake has to stay away from them, or risk getting hurt himself, so in a sense limits his own ability to move about the stage (though of course a good snake would try to place grenades where they wouldn't hinder him as much), but with our SPs, we can move around them as much as we want, even when they are active, as long as they are PASPs. However, once grenades finish exploding, Snake doesn't have to worry about them any more. Our ability to work around our ASPs comes with the responsibility of keeping them out of the control of your opponent once their hitbox disappears. My point of making these comparisons and contrasts is to show you that much like snake, we have potential to make a very strong stage control game that could very well move us up on the tier list, but also show you that we can't just compare them too closely and say "Oh, well the grenades have this and the SPs don't" and just move on, because the SPs themselves have advantages the grenades don't. It's not that the SPs don't work as a stage control game as well as Snake's grenades, it's just that they work differently and therefore would have to be used differently for stage control, but I do believe we can get the same or at least a similar advantage from our pieces if we use them right. This is what I want us to explore, because I really think this could be utilized greatly to our advantage. I'll start us off with a few of my ideas. I know people are flawed, and I kind of came up with these fairly quickly, so if you see any flaws, feel free to explain them and place your own input.

The idea behind this is that we would start our games much like Snakes play all the time: Use stage control to not only do damage, but force mistakes to punish. The number one way to do this would be to throw your SPs up. When suit pieces are up in the air, they function similarly to one of Snake's shield-dropped grenades: A hit box will appear in the spot you initiated the stage-control mechanism in a matter of seconds. Same concept: Stage control. But another difference is that they won't have a chance to throw them back until the hitbox reaches them, which takes time and effort to do correctly without getting hurt, and if you keep the pressure up, that most likely won't happen. Glide tossing up would be an amazing thing here, allowing you to throw one piece up where you want, and glide over to where another is coming back down. It would make a good mind game to glide-toss a piece up, and then jump into the air, grab one on its way down that the opponent was keeping track of so it wouldn’t hit them, and then throw it down at them, or throw it down somewhere else to throw them off. Similarly, if you don't like where one of your pieces is in the air, or maybe you need another piece to use, just jump up and get it. Yes, this again. In theory, it's pretty safe if you know what you're doing. Down throw makes an amazing Dair. The problem is often what happens if your other pieces are on the ground when this happens. Your opponent could go right for them. This is why you constantly want your pieces in the air! I imagine sort of a stage-wide SP juggling operation. You would utilize your superior jumping ability and glide tossing to juggle your SPs all around the field as stage control, jumping up and grabbing pieces you’d like to re-position elsewhere or throw, maybe mind gaming the opponent with this on a regular basis, and in between these actions fighting your opponent that is in constant annoyance and danger of falling hunks of metal armor. Maybe even throw some flip-stools in there every blue moon when you need to move across the stage quickly but don’t have a piece in hand.

SP strategies would probably vary with stages and characters. For example, the technique I just described above would probably work best on final destination, because jumping up to grab a piece would not result in ZSS landing on a platform where she would be vulnerable, and pieces would come straight to the ground where they are needed, but the technique would be very annoying to keep up on battlefield because of all the platforms, for the converse reasons. I imagine this working very well against snake, setting off his grenades and mines, as well as punishing and destroying many of his other attempts at stage control. As we move into bad characters for this strategy, irony ensues, because the strategy that works so well on FD would probably not work so well against Falco at all because of the reflector, and most of all, the lasers that aren’t going to be stopped by SPs, destroying the defensive aspect of our strategy. But this is why we need to work on this! I imagine dozens of variations of strategies that work from stage to stage and character to character, and that’s something we should really work on. Are you starting to understand why I find this so exciting?

I want you now to start thinking about different characters, and different stages. Experiment in practice mode. Try stuff involving reflectors, move canceling, maybe even other projectiles. Even take a look at other character's item games, like peach, Diddy Kong, and Snake. Remember, this is a discussion thread, not a lesson thread: I'm just trying to get your minds going. Look for things I may not have mention yet: I haven't brought out JCT's (Jump-Canceled-Throws) at all yet. What could we do with those? I hope by now I've helped you realize how unexplored this section of her metagame really is, and I want you to start exploring yourself. That's it for this section. Take a peek at the question!

Questions

What other strategies for large-scale stage control can you think of? What stages/characters would they be good on?

What other strategies for smasll-scale stage control can you think of? What stages/characters would they be good on?
If we're going for stage specifics, Brinstar has some interesting things you can do. It's well known that you can zdrop a piece onto the bubbles in the middle to keep it bouncing, keeping it as a hitbox wall and keeping the timer from running. Just make sure to grab it before the stage breaks up so you don't lose the piece.
Offensive Suit Piece Play

Though it's not quite as huge, there is an offensive aspect of the SPG. Pieces obviously make good weapons, but as I stated earlier and most of us already know, directly throwing pieces isn't always the best thing to do. Especially if we really get into this, good players will quickly learn to shield and even cancel pieces thrown at them, and then once they learn how good we are at getting them back, they'll probably learn to just throw them off, which will really do us no good. The two concepts that fall under the category of offensive Suit Piece Game are Suit Piece Support and Suit Piece Combos.

SP support is something we're all fairly familiar with. After all but one of our pieces disappears, we begin fighting generally normally. While fighting normally, we use one or sometimes even two pieces to support us, whether it be for some small-scale stage control, or as a high-priority projectile for punishing. Small-scale stage control is like SH Z-drop to make that sexy priority wall to camp behind, or just to put on a bit more pressure. It can be nice to throw a piece up too, but without other pieces around also falling, it can be fairly easy for the opponent to move the fight elsewhere, so it may not be the best idea. For small scale stage control, it's usually just best to throw or drop a piece down to put on the pressure. Punishing is more aggressive, and very useful. This can be done at any time you have a SP with you, whether you are still controlling the stage or not. SPd travel fast when thrown, which is very useful for punishing at a distance, but as usual, we want to keep in control, so it is important to only punish with a straight throw when you are sure you will hit. Rolling is the easiest action to punish. From a distance, you can chuck a SP as soon as you see them start to roll, and it will usually hit them during their vulnerable state as the roll ends. Spot dodges work too, but are a bit harder, so you might want to be a bit closer. Landing lag is also very easy to punish, which is why jumping is so dangerous. You can throw as you see them start to land, but if they have a second jump, then they might mind-game you into throwing your beloved piece off the stage or into their control (which if they are smart should be the same thing). You can also punish moves your opponent uses, and with the cancel in mind, you might even be able to cancel their moves for defensive purposes and counter. We'd need to find out which moves of our opponent's cancel, and the when they use that move, if there's time, a toss (or even glide-toss if they're further away) to jab, tilt, or maybe even Dsmash would be a new and useful way of punishing. I often see SPs being used for gimping. I do it myself, but unless it's really going to get you an early stock, if anything I've said in this long-*** novel is worth anything, it's not worth using the piece. If you can do it while saving the piece, then by all means, do it. Just don't get yourself killed. The pieces, if they're as good as I've claimed I believe they could be, are not worth wasting when we have so many other gimping tools at our disposal.

This next part is kind of an all or nothing, in that we'll either find nothing or close to nothing, or we'll find some really cool and useful stuff. This would likely come even later in the match, when we have one or maybe yet still even two pieces left, at least one of which is faded, and the opponent is on a fresh stock. I imagine combos involving the SPs working: Something like throwing one up, and in the right position, jumping, throwing down to hit the opponent, Dair to shoot them up into the piece coming back down. Situational, but it would works. With a faded piece, we could probably combo a soft throw into a DA>Utilt for some juggle time. Maybe jump over our opponent and drop a SP as we start to go over them, and then FFBair as the piece hits them on the other side into us. Stuff like that. Maybe some even more complicated stuff. I haven't looked into this one a whole lot. Again, experiment!

Questions

What are some other ways to use SPs for defensive support?

Suitpieces are also great for stuffing an opponent any time they take to the air.

Situation 1: Opponent is approaching you and you have a piece in hand. An amazing way to wall is to JCT the suitpiece down while sliding away from the opponent, and then pivoting to face the opponent and dsmashing. You have two long lasting, huge hitboxes in front of you to punish if the opponent follows through with his approach. You've also slid back to mess up their spacing. You've also made your dsmash much safer by covering yourself with a falling piece.

Situation 2: Opponent is in the air at a 1 or 2 oclock angle, you have a piece in hand. A downward glidetoss will put a wall up on the opponent's left while you slide to the right. From there SH double bair, the first will wall them on the right, either hitting them or coinciding with their dodge of the piece, in which case the second bair will usually hit them (and pick up the falling piece).

What are some other ways to use SPs for offensive support (punishing)?

Against Fox and Wolf at least if they telegraph the reflector I like to glide toss down and then Dsmash them. The potential reward is great. Of course this will only work on the inexperienced. And it should only work once. Between this and side B you have a few options even against reflectors.

You can also against certain characters glidetoss-grab. Mainly against character you can chain. Its pretty risky though with the lag at the end.

Also you can bait Falco's reflector and glidetoss down to get inside early in the match once you get the timing down.
Glide Tossing Tricks
  • Glide toss forwards and use your forward momentum to do a sliding jab combo/tilt. This will normally connect if the armor part connects, or possibly punish a spot dodge depending on your timing. This is unsafe on block.
  • Glide toss forwards/up/down and use your forward momentum to do a sliding grab. This is excellent against people who shield the armor piece, but it will be punished by a spot dodge.
  • Face away from your opponent and roll away from them but glide toss the piece backwards so it travels at them. This will not get you punished, and it may catch an opponent off guard, but it may just give the piece to a shielding opponent and you don't want to do that. This is however useful if have already throw a piece at your opponent and you followed after it and retrieved it. Your retreating sliding brings you right back to the other two pieces at your starting pile allowing you to have the upper hand once again even if you lose one piece.
  • Another reverse facing glide toss technique is tossing it downwards to cover your retreat. If you are against an opponent like Snake who you do not want to fight in close combat you can glide toss away and smash the piece downwards to create a wall in between the two of you.
Another interesting game to play is to just hold an armor piece in your hand. This creates a situation threatening to your opponent and it will make them go on the defensive, giving you an opportunity to take control of the match. You can also continually use forward and neutral specials to keep them off balance and apply shield pressure. If you happen to hit with the neutral B, throw the piece and then reset the situation. If they have taken to shielding your hits, do a glide toss downwards followed by a grab>forward throw>dash attack>utilt.

Can opponent character's moves that cancel or pause against a PASP be punished during the cancel/pause? Which moves, and from what distances?

What are some SP combos that work? Do they require a faded piece? What percents do they work on?


That's about it. It took me about three days to type all of this, so I hope it doesn't go to waste. Really think this stuff through. I'm telling you that this is a goldmine of Metagame substance, and we shouldn't be ignoring it any longer. ZSS may just become an item character, and this could easily shoot her up the tier list if it works. Again, and for the last time, this is a discussion thread, so add to it! I am not going to stand here and preach as if I know everything about this, because I don't, but I do believe that there is a lot to be learned and found here. We just have to keep exploring. Have fun!

__________________________________

EDIT:
Nefarious B brought up the good point of camping. I'm going to stick camping strat ideas down here now too. Depending o how many pieces are involved, camping should be used at different times. Basically, you should probably only be only doing a particular camping technique if the amount of necessary pieces are all the pieces that are available. For example, Nef's idea below requires one piece, and while he's doing that, if there is another piece available, the opponent can ruin the camping or just make it much harder back using that pieces. Of course, this is just what makes sense to me right now. If you can find exceptions, then by all means mention them!

Well I'm glad you made a thread like this, here's my random thoughts and contributions:

I was just talking with norad about this a couple days ago, how having a suitpiece in our hand essentially gives us a legit dair. My thought was that it can be used in conjunction with our vertical height to allow us to "dair camp" certain characters, especially ones we're trying to avoid grabs from.

So think on SV for example against ICs. We take the platform, suit piece in hand. If they try and approach us, usually it will be with either a uair or desynched blizzards. If they try and hit us through the plat we can either boost jump out of their range, or jump and dthrow, and from there you would assess the situation and either try to further break them up or set the situation back to neutral.

Or think of using this strategy on BF against falco, just camping the top plat and largely negating both his laser and his jab/grab game.

I remember a while back, Nick was talking about how he thinks ZS has good stalling potential. This imo is how we do it, because it turns our weak underside into a place where an opponent doesn't want to be, and couple that with our jumps and boost jumps we can make it insanely difficult for some characters to approach us. A % lead can ensure they have to approach in the first place, though many players wouldn't be patient enough to stay back even if they had the lead.
 

Nefarious B

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Well I'm glad you made a thread like this, here's my random thoughts and contributions:

I was just talking with norad about this a couple days ago, how having a suitpiece in our hand essentially gives us a legit dair. My thought was that it can be used in conjunction with our vertical height to allow us to "dair camp" certain characters, especially ones we're trying to avoid grabs from.

So think on SV for example against ICs. We take the platform, suit piece in hand. If they try and approach us, usually it will be with either a uair or desynched blizzards. If they try and hit us through the plat we can either boost jump out of their range, or jump and dthrow, and from there you would assess the situation and either try to further break them up or set the situation back to neutral.

Or think of using this strategy on BF against falco, just camping the top plat and largely negating both his laser and his jab/grab game.

I remember a while back, Nick was talking about how he thinks ZS has good stalling potential. This imo is how we do it, because it turns our weak underside into a place where an opponent doesn't want to be, and couple that with our jumps and boost jumps we can make it insanely difficult for some characters to approach us. A % lead can ensure they have to approach in the first place, though many players wouldn't be patient enough to stay back even if they had the lead.

--------------------------

Suitpieces are also great for stuffing an opponent any time they take to the air.

Situation 1: Opponent is approaching you and you have a piece in hand. An amazing way to wall is to JCT the suitpiece down while sliding away from the opponent, and then pivoting to face the opponent and dsmashing. You have two long lasting, huge hitboxes in front of you to punish if the opponent follows through with his approach. You've also slid back to mess up their spacing. You've also made your dsmash much safer by covering yourself with a falling piece.

Situation 2: Opponent is in the air at a 1 or 2 oclock angle, you have a piece in hand. A downward glidetoss will put a wall up on the opponent's left while you slide to the right. From there SH double bair, the first will wall them on the right, either hitting them or coinciding with their dodge of the piece, in which case the second bair will usually hit them (and pick up the falling piece).
 

ThreeSided

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Well I'm glad you made a thread like this, here's my random thoughts and contributions:

I was just talking with norad about this a couple days ago, how having a suitpiece in our hand essentially gives us a legit dair. My thought was that it can be used in conjunction with our vertical height to allow us to "dair camp" certain characters, especially ones we're trying to avoid grabs from.

So think on SV for example against ICs. We take the platform, suit piece in hand. If they try and approach us, usually it will be with either a uair or desynched blizzards. If they try and hit us through the plat we can either boost jump out of their range, or jump and dthrow, and from there you would assess the situation and either try to further break them up or set the situation back to neutral.

Or think of using this strategy on BF against falco, just camping the top plat and largely negating both his laser and his jab/grab game.

I remember a while back, Nick was talking about how he thinks ZS has good stalling potential. This imo is how we do it, because it turns our weak underside into a place where an opponent doesn't want to be, and couple that with our jumps and boost jumps we can make it insanely difficult for some characters to approach us. A % lead can ensure they have to approach in the first place, though many players wouldn't be patient enough to stay back even if they had the lead.

--------------------------

Suitpieces are also great for stuffing an opponent any time they take to the air.

Situation 1: Opponent is approaching you and you have a piece in hand. An amazing way to wall is to JCT the suitpiece down while sliding away from the opponent, and then pivoting to face the opponent and dsmashing. You have two long lasting, huge hitboxes in front of you to punish if the opponent follows through with his approach. You've also slid back to mess up their spacing. You've also made your dsmash much safer by covering yourself with a falling piece.

Situation 2: Opponent is in the air at a 1 or 2 oclock angle, you have a piece in hand. A downward glidetoss will put a wall up on the opponent's left while you slide to the right. From there SH double bair, the first will wall them on the right, either hitting them or coinciding with their dodge of the piece, in which case the second bair will usually hit them (and pick up the falling piece).
Very good! I added that last part under defensive techniques, and made a new camping section to support the first part.

EDIT: By the way, this is all meant to be a way to bring out as much information as possible, and it looks like it's really going to work, but obviously it won't be too organized. Someday, after we've come up with a bunch of stuff and tried it out, I hope someone will take all the good stuff and make a guide on the subject. Maybe I'll do it. =)
 

Kewkky

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Throwing pieces at the opponent isn't such a bad idea at the start, only when they decide to jump away until you throw them all is it a bad idea. Otherwise, think of this scenario:

*You throw an armor piece, they shield.
*you throw another armor piece immediately, and they keep their shields up.
*You glidetoss your last armor piece and aim to land on top of the other armor pieces, but your opponent is in shieldstun from the last piece, and the one you just glidetossed is flying towards him, so he's probably gonna shield it or dodge it.
*You are now on top of two armor pieces. Pick one up and throw it immediately, and now your opponent either got hit due to the dodge he made, or his shield diminished even more. Now his shield is dangerously small, and you still have one armor piece.
*All of your armor pieces are in play, and you are throwing your last piece, and you just shieldstabbed your opponent with the 5th consecutive throw. Now you have all 3 pieces, % advantage, and your opponent has been sent flying a small distance. Success!

Think about how your opponent will react, and make sure you pay close attention to how they react! That is just one possible scenario from perfect Armor Piece usage, and theyre are so many awesome ways you can play with them. Zdrop pieces and nair/uair to catch them back, or airdodge to catch them and avoid getting shieldgrabbed by landing, then throw the piece at them while they're in their grab animations... Another successful Armor Piece usage!

*On characters like Fox, Wolf, Mario, Pit, Ness and Lucas (and whoever else) who can reflect projectiles, the best way you can approach them is by grabbing a piece, then running and sideB'ing. Easiest mindgame ever! They will probably expect you to throw the piece and glidetoss, so they might either shield, dodge or use a reflector... And whichever of the three that they use, a spaced sideB is the best option for shield pressure, as well as item-holding mindgames.


This seriously gives us an amazingly huge advantage on SOOOOO many matchups, it's not even funny how great her Armor Pieces' games is... Too bad it doesn't work on Falco, since his reflector is truly broken against us..
 

Phillyfanboy

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I like it, good thread, welcome back. Her glide toss is sick. Godly thread, in terms of SP hype!
 

Tien2500

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*On characters like Fox, Wolf, Mario, Pit, Ness and Lucas (and whoever else) who can reflect projectiles, the best way you can approach them is by grabbing a piece, then running and sideB'ing. Easiest mindgame ever! They will probably expect you to throw the piece and glidetoss, so they might either shield, dodge or use a reflector... And whichever of the three that they use, a spaced sideB is the best option for shield pressure, as well as item-holding mindgames.


This seriously gives us an amazingly huge advantage on SOOOOO many matchups, it's not even funny how great her Armor Pieces' games is... Too bad it doesn't work on Falco, since his reflector is truly broken against us..
Against Fox and Wolf at least if they telegraph the reflector I like to glide toss down and then Dsmash them. The potential reward is great. Of course this will only work on the inexperienced. And it should only work once. Between this and side B you have a few options even against reflectors.

You can also against certain characters glidetoss-grab. Mainly against character you can chain. Its pretty risky though with the lag at the end.

Also you can bait Falco's reflector and glidetoss down to get inside early in the match once you get the timing down.
 

ThreeSided

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Throwing pieces at the opponent isn't such a bad idea at the start, only when they decide to jump away until you throw them all is it a bad idea. Otherwise, think of this scenario:

*You throw an armor piece, they shield.
*you throw another armor piece immediately, and they keep their shields up.
*You glidetoss your last armor piece and aim to land on top of the other armor pieces, but your opponent is in shieldstun from the last piece, and the one you just glidetossed is flying towards him, so he's probably gonna shield it or dodge it.
*You are now on top of two armor pieces. Pick one up and throw it immediately, and now your opponent either got hit due to the dodge he made, or his shield diminished even more. Now his shield is dangerously small, and you still have one armor piece.
*All of your armor pieces are in play, and you are throwing your last piece, and you just shieldstabbed your opponent with the 5th consecutive throw. Now you have all 3 pieces, % advantage, and your opponent has been sent flying a small distance. Success!
My issue with this is that it depends on the opponents experience, and has a chance of failing, resulting in lost suit pieces. In fact, this is kinda type of thing I want to do away with. Rather than looking at the suit pieces as a quick way to rack up damage at the beginning of the match and possibly get a quick KO, I want to use them as a true support and stage control system. Because they would be so invaluable in this way, it wouldn't be worth the risk of ever throwing pieces at your opponent unless you are certain they will connect or at least wont be lost somehow.

Not dissing your strategy at all, in fact it's really good, and I'd never thought of it like that. But the fact that you're using all of your SPs at once in a way that gets rid of them or at least risks losing them so early kinda puts a dent in what I've been trying to say here. I've been comparing them to snake's grenades for a reason: I want us to really try and use them for an elaborate stage control that, rather than being a little "blip" advantage at the beginning of the match that is otherwise loosely tied to our metagame, our SPG basically IS our metagame for the time they are on the field (which we would try to extend as much as possible).

If you look at my idea for stage control in the main post, I'm throwing the Pieces up in a way that they should seldomly be ISPs, and therefore lasting for a long time. I legitimately would expect the pieces to last at least two stocks, maybe more, or through the whole match. Again, our SPG would no longer be a separate game from her usual-game, but one and the same, much like snake's grenades make up his metagame. Our old version of the metagame would be sort of a "last resort" so to speak, like what diddy's would have to resort to if they had no bananas, only ours is much better. And in a sense, that's the problem: our solo-game is pretty good, so we may not be so encouraged to really look in depth into the potential of our SPG. This is what I'm trying to get us to do here. Do you get what I'm saying here? Just to clarify:

Against Fox and Wolf at least if they telegraph the reflector I like to glide toss down and then Dsmash them. The potential reward is great. Of course this will only work on the inexperienced. And it should only work once. Between this and side B you have a few options even against reflectors.

You can also against certain characters glidetoss-grab. Mainly against character you can chain. Its pretty risky though with the lag at the end.

Also you can bait Falco's reflector and glidetoss down to get inside early in the match once you get the timing down.
This is fine. Not only does it involve one piece, but you're throwing it down. Though I would imagine that this is intended as a strat for game start up when your pieces aren't in the air or set up for some other stage control as I would prefer, it's still plausible for use mid-stratagem as a punishing move/mixup.

I'm tempted to make another section for your "blip"-SPG strategy and collect others, but I fear that would be discouraging the threads purpose. =\
 

ThreeSided

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It's the next day, so it's not a double post. =P

Guys, help me gather some move intel. How about which of our moves cancel/pause when hit with a thrown piece? Or what happens to the piece hitboxes when they hit other projectiles? Look at the questions and try to answer them!
 

Kewkky

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All moves who have a disjoint in the direction where the item is coming from, that covers her hurtbox, cancel out armor pieces. Jabs, ftilt, sideB, downB kick (iffy on this one), upB, neutral B, usmash, fsmash, bair, uair, nair, and 2nd fair kick...

It's still a better idea to learn how to zcatch items. It can also help you get better at the Diddy MU, since then you can catch his bananas and not wait until they touch the floor until you can finally grab them.
 

PepsiMista

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Im dying to See someone play with the suit pieces...

I think I know alot regarding them... but I still need to see something different.
 

ThreeSided

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All moves who have a disjoint in the direction where the item is coming from, that covers her hurtbox, cancel out armor pieces. Jabs, ftilt, sideB, downB kick (iffy on this one), upB, neutral B, usmash, fsmash, bair, uair, nair, and 2nd fair kick...

It's still a better idea to learn how to zcatch items. It can also help you get better at the Diddy MU, since then you can catch his bananas and not wait until they touch the floor until you can finally grab them.
So I take it you agree and understand what I'm saying? It's okay to disagree, this is a discussion thread.

Z-catch? I'm not familiar with that I don't think, at least not the name. Is that the proper term for z-drop aerials?
 

Kewkky

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So I take it you agree and understand what I'm saying? It's okay to disagree, this is a discussion thread.
Don't worry, I agree with all that you say. It's just that the armor pieces can be used in different ways (like you said), and aggressively throwing them down/forward can put your opponent in very disadvantageous positions... Proper use of items will LITERALLY give you an ENORMOUS advantage over almost any character. When you properly use your items and you see how your opponent loses all of their options due to your pieces' hitboxes staying active due to their bouncing animations (ASPs, as you call them), can make it so that they have a super tough time returning on-stage, or even managing to get a grab off of you (zdrop when you're gonna land near an opponent).

Z-catch? I'm not familiar with that I don't think, at least not the name. Is that the proper term for z-drop aerials?
You know how when you press Z in the air, you airdodge? Well when you press the Z button while close to an item, you catch it WITHOUT going into airdodge animation, leading to instant grab-and-throws. Lightning-fast item game can come from this. Throwing down and using an aerial to catch items is not the only option, throwing down an item, catching it as it is bouncing then throwing it down again before touching the ground is also possible. Falling close to the ground empty-handed on an item then pressing Z as you're about to touch the floor, you pick up the item and are still in the air when you do... And, you can also throw an item on a platform, then jump through it, press Z, and instantly throw it anywhere without having to resort to an aerial, making it another option if aerials/airdodges would get punished... Oh! A very important use for z-catching, is throwing down items near the ledges when your opponent is grabbing the ledge (while you retreat to a safe distance), then z-catching the item and throwing it down again with no visible openings at all, thanks to the piece's active hitbox! And these are only from the top of my head!

Z-catching can also enable extended offstage item usage. If usually throwing armor pieces offstage to hit your opponent would mean that it's a good edgeguard but now the item's gone, you can now jump off, zcatch and immediately jump/upB without having to wait for any animations to end, nor risking missing the item and wasting time trying to catch something that probably was impossible to catch otherwise.

So, z-catching lets you catch items (even thrown items by the opponent) without dodging or using an aerial attack.
 

Tien2500

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I think Zcatch is just airdodging to catch the armor piece.

Earlier today I somehow managed to dtilt while holding an armor piece. I was getting nadoed by meta and I was sort of holding down and mashing a as it ended (don't ask why there is really no good reason. I wound up dtilting him while holding the item piece.

If that made no sense... All that matters is I dtilted while holding an item. Dunno it its known how to do this but it could be useful.
 

ThreeSided

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Don't worry, I agree with all that you say. It's just that the armor pieces can be used in different ways (like you said), and aggressively throwing them down/forward can put your opponent in very disadvantageous positions... Proper use of items will LITERALLY give you an ENORMOUS advantage over almost any character. When you properly use your items and you see how your opponent loses all of their options due to your pieces' hitboxes staying active due to their bouncing animations (ASPs, as you call them), can make it so that they have a super tough time returning on-stage, or even managing to get a grab off of you (zdrop when you're gonna land near an opponent).


You know how when you press Z in the air, you airdodge? Well when you press the Z button while close to an item, you catch it WITHOUT going into airdodge animation, leading to instant grab-and-throws. Lightning-fast item game can come from this. Throwing down and using an aerial to catch items is not the only option, throwing down an item, catching it as it is bouncing then throwing it down again before touching the ground is also possible. Falling close to the ground empty-handed on an item then pressing Z as you're about to touch the floor, you pick up the item and are still in the air when you do... And, you can also throw an item on a platform, then jump through it, press Z, and instantly throw it anywhere without having to resort to an aerial, making it another option if aerials/airdodges would get punished... Oh! A very important use for z-catching, is throwing down items near the ledges when your opponent is grabbing the ledge (while you retreat to a safe distance), then z-catching the item and throwing it down again with no visible openings at all, thanks to the piece's active hitbox! And these are only from the top of my head!

Z-catching can also enable extended offstage item usage. If usually throwing armor pieces offstage to hit your opponent would mean that it's a good edgeguard but now the item's gone, you can now jump off, zcatch and immediately jump/upB without having to wait for any animations to end, nor risking missing the item and wasting time trying to catch something that probably was impossible to catch otherwise.

So, z-catching lets you catch items (even thrown items by the opponent) without dodging or using an aerial attack.
Oh, that's really useful! I'll add that in. But as far as my reasoning for using cancel moves, it's for when you've lost control and your opponent has pieces. If they have more than one and you jump in the air to Z-catch, you're kinda screwed on your way down because of landing lag, or at least it will make things much harder to avoid. That and canceling active bouncing pieces and such.

Not all the moves with the description you made cancel, by the way. Some of them pause, and it's important to know the difference. The extra lag could really screw you over.
 

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I think Zcatch is just airdodging to catch the armor piece.

Earlier today I somehow managed to dtilt while holding an armor piece. I was getting nadoed by meta and I was sort of holding down and mashing a as it ended (don't ask why there is really no good reason. I wound up dtilting him while holding the item piece.

If that made no sense... All that matters is I dtilted while holding an item. Dunno it its known how to do this but it could be useful.
If you crawl with an items in your hand, you always d-tilt.
Also, holding A and pressing C-stick forward, results in an f-smash.
 

Kewkky

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No, you don't airdodge while zcatching items. You just... Catch them. You're doing whatever you desire, then you press Z, and voila: the item is in your hands and you're not doing any animations (airdodging, attacks, any kind of afterlag...).

And you're right, not all the moves I listed cancel, but they all stop the armor pieces in their tracks. Well, the ones that cancel are the tilts (jab included) and B moves, not smashes nor aerials.
 

ThreeSided

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No, you don't airdodge while zcatching items. You just... Catch them. You're doing whatever you desire, then you press Z, and voila: the item is in your hands and you're not doing any animations (airdodging, attacks, any kind of afterlag...).

And you're right, not all the moves I listed cancel, but they all stop the armor pieces in their tracks. Well, the ones that cancel are the tilts (jab included) and B moves, not smashes nor aerials.
Knowing the difference might prove to be useful. I know Usmash sounds like a good armor-piece/aerial shield since it doesn't cancel.
 

Kewkky

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While you're not commited to animations, you can do it. If you're doing an attack and fly by an item, I don't think you'll be able to catch them. You know you got the item in your hands when you hear the "pick-up" sound and a little blue circle appears for less than half a sec, so listen to the noise and use it as a "checkpoint" for your item game, while you keep learning.

Still... I dunno about zcatching while airdodging. Usually I just airdodge while catching items, I've never tried to airdodge then try catching an item while in the animation.
 

PK-ow!

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This game aspect suffers from terminological overlap with the bouncing combo.
I'm not sure which one should be renamed... seems to be bouncing combo simply because there is no other name for what items do. :ohwell:


Which brings me to my question:


Does Zamus have a bouncing combo set up with the armor pieces? Is the hit weak enough to start a bouncing combo? Strong enough to knock someone into a bounce combo?

Has an SP ever tripped someone? (Apparently, a lot of moves can do it... it seems to be a property of the hurtbox and the geometry of the collision...)
 

ThreeSided

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We should get some of these questions answered. Here's a little reminder of the questions that wouldn't take much thought to answer, but only some testing in practice mode.

What happens when ASPs collide with other projectiles? Do they bounce away, or drop? Do they stay active as they bounce on the ground, or turn into ISPs?

Which moves of ours cancel with the CASPs?

Which of our moves only pause?

What about cancels with the attacks of other characters?

Pauses of moves of other characters?

Do the SPs get weaker the longer they've been fading? If so, by how much?

Can opponent character's moves that cancel or pause against a PASP be punished during the cancel/pause? Which moves, and from what distances? What moves can we punish with?
 

kuenzel

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Does Zamus have a bouncing combo set up with the armor pieces? Is the hit weak enough to start a bouncing combo? Strong enough to knock someone into a bounce combo?

Has an SP ever tripped someone? (Apparently, a lot of moves can do it... it seems to be a property of the hurtbox and the geometry of the collision...)
I've never seen it cause trips. I'm PRETTY sure its too strong to start a bounce combo... maybe.
 

kuenzel

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What happens when ASPs collide with other projectiles? Do they bounce away, or drop?
Did testing yesterday to see if a SP destroys snakes cypher without hitting Snake like in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjfsJuOv4Hs this video. It hit, bounced, and fell through snake as an ISP. Sadly, it did not cancel the cypher. I did not, however, try multiple SP's to destroy it. I'm pretty sure it would behave the same against a projectile, cause thats what cypher is, right?

Do they stay active as they bounce on the ground, or turn into ISPs?
They remain ISP's, I believe.
 

ThreeSided

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Did testing yesterday to see if a SP destroys snakes cypher without hitting Snake like in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjfsJuOv4Hs this video. It hit, bounced, and fell through snake as an ISP. Sadly, it did not cancel the cypher. I did not, however, try multiple SP's to destroy it. I'm pretty sure it would behave the same against a projectile, cause thats what cypher is, right?



They remain ISP's, I believe.
I'm pretty sure it would act differently with different projectiles. For example, some projectiles with TP (transcendent priority) would just go right through them, and other projectiles with hurtboxes (missiles and waddle-dees) would likely cause the SP to remain active.

Also, are you sure it becomes an ISP? I recently found out that the hitbox around the SPs is the kind that doesn't work on the same character twice, so they might just still be ASPs but don't effect the character anymore.
 

Kewkky

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What happens when ASPs collide with other projectiles? Do they bounce away, or drop? Do they stay active as they bounce on the ground, or turn into ISPs?
The projectiles get destroyed, and the ASPs bounce away as ISPs.

Which moves of ours cancel with the CASPs?
Jab, ftilt, grounded sideB... I think that's all of our moves that completely cancel out when they hit a CASP and turn them into ISPs.

Which of our moves only pause?
Fsmash, usmash, nair, uair, bair, upB, neutral B... These moves stop ASPs and turn them into ISPs, but don't cancel and still have afterlag.

What about cancels with the attacks of other characters?
From what I understand this question to be, it's character specific, and will take some time to write up... I get anxious just thinking of all the writing and thinking, so I'll leave this to someone else... If not, then I guess I'll do it later.

Pauses of moves of other characters?
Again, character specific from what I understand.

Do the SPs get weaker the longer they've been fading? If so, by how much?
Nope, they don't. Just make sure they're always bounceing around so they don't disappear. This is where zcatching and throwing come into play a lot: catch and rethrow your pieces to keep them bouncing, so they don't start fading away.

Can opponent character's moves that cancel or pause against a PASP be punished during the cancel/pause? Which moves, and from what distances? What moves can we punish with?
Again, character specific.
Responses in red. I answered a couple of things, and others I just left them there for others to answer.
 

ThreeSided

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The projectiles get destroyed, and the ASPs bounce away as ISPs.
This sounds a bit off. Not all projectiles can even be destroyed. Also remember what I said I just found out: When it comes into contact with an object with a hurtbox, it actually remains an ASP, but just wont effect that hurtbox again as long as it is active, so since you/your opponent are a separate hurtbox, I wouldn't be surprised if they could hurt you. I also feel I recall this happening to me before... Also, it may have to do with whether it actually comes in contact with the hitbox, hurtbox, or both of the projectile. We'll need projectile-specific (which to your misfortune also means character-specific) testing for this.

Jab, ftilt, grounded sideB... I think that's all of our moves that completely cancel out when they hit a CASP and turn them into ISPs.

So you tested all of this out? Very good! I'll add it in.

Fsmash, usmash, nair, uair, bair, upB, neutral B... These moves stop ASPs and turn them into ISPs, but don't cancel and still have afterlag.
Same.

Nope, they don't. Just make sure they're always bounceing around so they don't disappear. This is where zcatching and throwing come into play a lot: catch and rethrow your pieces to keep them bouncing, so they don't start fading away.
Same.
Responses in yellow.
 
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To keep up with the current posting theme. My responses will be in RoyalBlue :laugh:

Even though I am not part of the group, I cannot help but pointing this out as I have not seen it talked about yet after skimming through all the posts here.

You might want to look into stage specifics as well. A small stage can be good, but equally bad. Smaller stage means people have less space to avoid the SPs from. However, it also means that in order to keep your SPs on stage without the risk of throwing them over, you have to be more careful with your suit pieces.

For example, if you play on YI, no matter where you stand from, the SPs if thrown will simply bounce off the stage if it isn't stopped by something. So throwing SPs will have its risks on YI. You also have the same problem regarding Zdropping, throwing down or up. Depending if the SP hits an angle, it will more than likely bounce its way offstage. So, YI is pretty much the last stage you probably want to bring someone too if you want to maximize the usage of the SPs. So, I say expect to Stage Strike it when you can.

Also, even though RC is a great CP for ZSS as I am told by many people, SPs potiential would probably be ruined after the ship part.
 

ThreeSided

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SP strategies would probably vary with stages and characters. For example, the technique I just described above would probably work best on final destination, because jumping up to grab a piece would not result in ZSS landing on a platform where she would be vulnerable, and pieces would come straight to the ground where they are needed, but the technique would be very annoying to keep up on battlefield because of all the platforms, for the converse reasons.
I want you now to start thinking about different characters, and different stages. Experiment in practice mode.
We have mentioned it. However, your examples are very welcome, I'll be adding them as an answer to one of the questions.
 

Kewkky

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Ah, thats true Xeylode... The stages' floor angles can ruin your item game. You have no idea how much I hate starting in Lylat Cruise (we play by Pound4 rules) or YI, I can't use the pieces as I normally would. However, the cool thing with angled floors is that you can throw them down, and they fly off towards that angle! In Lylat Cruise, armor pieces can work as anti-air attacks if they try to approach from the air, since the items' trajectories arches when they hit the floor.

Still, item use is too limited in such stages, so don't focus too much on them or else you'll find yourself at a disadvantage due to trying to make them last longer than they should.
 

ThreeSided

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Ah, thats true Xeylode... The stages' floor angles can ruin your item game. You have no idea how much I hate starting in Lylat Cruise (we play by Pound4 rules) or YI, I can't use the pieces as I normally would. However, the cool thing with angled floors is that you can throw them down, and they fly off towards that angle! In Lylat Cruise, armor pieces can work as anti-air attacks if they try to approach from the air, since the items' trajectories arches when they hit the floor.

Still, item use is too limited in such stages, so don't focus too much on them or else you'll find yourself at a disadvantage due to trying to make them last longer than they should.
Very true. Also, if you learn the angles well, you can use it to your advantage. As long as you stragetically place them and you know what you're doing, you can probably pretty much do the same thing and keep the same control, only being limited by certain places you know you can't throw up/down, and then having a good auto-mindgame to use against your opponent. I don't remember who it is, but I remember someone mentioning Dthrowing glide-toss on YI to hit an opponent in front of them, as a nice sexy mindgame.
 
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Ah, well, that is what happens when you skim. You miss out on a few things.

Since you guys mentioned the usage of camping with SPs I was wondering what ZSS could do to actually stall/camp with this. Or at the very least make approaches difficult. For one, in no way can you out stall someone with a decent projectile. Against Falco, stalling with the SP by throwing it down seems pretty pointless. It was mentioned before that people can just wait you out, that is not very true. Sure, you can wait for 2 of the 3 that aren't being held to disappear, but the one ZSS is holding can be extended for a pretty long time.

SPs go away around 30 - 35 seconds when not used. However, by SH Dthrowing -> Uair for a recatching it on the bounce up. I managed to repeat this method for a good 2 minutes, and the SP still had plenty of time in it's lifespan when I left it alone. So, I am thinking with the proper method, you could get a SP to last the entire match. However, I am not sure if it is possible to stall safely with this method. I think the best stalling method you could get out of this might be to do this. SH -> Dthrow -> Retreat Nair -> Run up -> SH Air Dodge (to catch) -> Dthrow (from same SH you caught it in) -> Retreat Nair -> Repeat.

I meant Nair. Not Fair.
 

ThreeSided

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Ah, well, that is what happens when you skim. You miss out on a few things.

Since you guys mentioned the usage of camping with SPs I was wondering what ZSS could do to actually stall/camp with this. Or at the very least make approaches difficult. For one, in no way can you out stall someone with a decent projectile. Against Falco, stalling with the SP by throwing it down seems pretty pointless.
I agree completely, and I also mentioned that my camping idea I mentioned wouldn't work well at all against falco. It really would be pointless, lqtm.

It was mentioned before that people can just wait you out, that is not very true. Sure, you can wait for 2 of the 3 that aren't being held to disappear, but the one ZSS is holding can be extended for a pretty long time.

SPs go away around 30 - 35 seconds when not used.
Check the thread again. I timed it. They last a total of 22 seconds, 19 seconds of solid 3 seconds of faded, then they disappear. Also, they don't have to be held to stop the timer. As long as they are ASPs (basically as long as they have a hotbox) the timer doesn't run, as well as when they are being held.

However, by SH Dthrowing -> Uair for a recatching it on the bounce up. I managed to repeat this method for a good 2 minutes, and the SP still had plenty of time in it's lifespan when I left it alone. So, I am thinking with the proper method, you could get a SP to last the entire match. However, I am not sure if it is possible to stall safely with this method. I think the best stalling method you could get out of this might be to do this. SH -> Dthrow -> Retreat Nair -> Run up -> SH Air Dodge (to catch) -> Dthrow (from same SH you caught it in) -> Retreat Nair -> Repeat.

I meant Nair. Not Fair.
Could work. Do you think it's good enough to add to the front? You don't sound so confident for it.
 

Kewkky

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If you're using your SPs correctly, your opponent should be flying all over the place. emember that since they're active hitboxes when you throw them and while tey bounce, using them to frametrap your landing opponents is a GREAT idea. If your opponent wises up, he'll grab the piece, and land into any attack you might be charging to punish them for that (charge a dsmash or something)... So whatever they do, they'll have to eat the damage and suffer whatever follow-ups you readied yourself for.

If they grab the piece and you knock them away, it's good for you because they can't do any aerials until they throw the piece away, and they can only throw up, down, left and right... Which means they have blindspots. Now, if you're quick enough, you can juggle them with uair and knock 'em away with a bair, since all they'll be able to do is zdrop, throw the item, or airdodge. And thanks to the item-dropping factor (when you hit them, they have a random chance of dropping the item), the item may have a chance of staying in the game... Remember: always run after them when they're in the air and they have an item in hand, and are in stun. It's a great opportunity to get some free damage in!

By the way, item pieces never trip. Someone asked about this, and it's pretty common knowledge. Their knockback is far too much to trip an opponent.
 

Nefarious B

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If we're going for stage specifics, Brinstar has some interesting things you can do. It's well known that you can zdrop a piece onto the bubbles in the middle to keep it bouncing, keeping it as a hitbox wall and keeping the timer from running. Just make sure to grab it before the stage breaks up so you don't lose the piece. However, I don't think we've looked into how this affects stale moves. Maybe the suit piece can be used as a wall to stall while simultaneously refreshing all your moves. Also, a stale suit piece can be used to combo much more easily than a fresh one; we may be able to combo FGT into a dsmash or side b if it's staled enough at the right %s.

You can also use the tendrils on either side of the stage to make f and bthrow more usable, as they will stop the piece from flying off the stage (though they sometimes still bounce through).

Brinstar also has uneven floor that can be used similarly to yoshi's or lylat, though Ill admit I haven't played around with this at all.

My last question is, if you zdrop a piece on a slop, like a fully sloped lylat, will it slide down the full stage while staying an ASP or does it stop bouncing before it falls off? Sorry I can't test atm
 

ThreeSided

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If we're going for stage specifics, Brinstar has some interesting things you can do. It's well known that you can zdrop a piece onto the bubbles in the middle to keep it bouncing, keeping it as a hitbox wall and keeping the timer from running. Just make sure to grab it before the stage breaks up so you don't lose the piece.
I'll add this in as a stage control technique.

However, I don't think we've looked into how this affects stale moves. Maybe the suit piece can be used as a wall to stall while simultaneously refreshing all your moves.
Sounds like a really awesome idea, but I wont be adding anything to the front page until we're certain about it. Sounds like we should do some testing!

Also, a stale suit piece can be used to combo much more easily than a fresh one; we may be able to combo FGT into a dsmash or side b if it's staled enough at the right %s.
Yep! One of the questions is what combos can be made out of SPs, and do they need to be faded. Give it a go, guys!

You can also use the tendrils on either side of the stage to make f and bthrow more usable, as they will stop the piece from flying off the stage (though they sometimes still bounce through).
This will go into "keeping control".

Brinstar also has uneven floor that can be used similarly to yoshi's or lylat, though Ill admit I haven't played around with this at all.
Again, experiment!

My last question is, if you zdrop a piece on a slop, like a fully sloped lylat, will it slide down the full stage while staying an ASP or does it stop bouncing before it falls off? Sorry I can't test atm
There's another question to answer!
Responses in yellow. All of this sounds good, but a lot needs experimentation. Good discussion so far guys.
 

Kewkky

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My last question is, if you zdrop a piece on a slop, like a fully sloped lylat, will it slide down the full stage while staying an ASP or does it stop bouncing before it falls off? Sorry I can't test atm
It depends on your distance from the slope's end. Still, chances are that the piece WILL bounce and roll all the way down.
 
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