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The Ultimate Smash Bros. 4 Character Analysis Topic. (Retro Characters Analysis Is Up!)

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M15t3R E

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On the Porky thing, yes, it has been requested and I'm that thread's creator actually. :p
Oh my goodness...
That was just an arbitrary boss villain to compare Ridley with. -_-
I think Ridley looks good being smaller, still has his intimidation, and knowing Sakarai he could probably make him even better than this.
It comes down to whether Sakurai and the Metroid team see Ridley serving a better role as a boss character which he has always been or as a playable character. Waluigi is a must!
 

ChronoBound

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Nearly all Western Smash Bros. fans want Ridley playable. There is only a very small minority that simply screams at the top of their lungs (look at how all the anti-Ridley posts in this topic all comes from only ONE person) about their opinions.

The reality is that there are very few newcomers left that could be labelled Nintendo all-stars and are well-known in general. Ridley is among those few. I really shake my head about how much this thread has become (again due to one guy). "WAAAAAH I HATE RIDLEY. HEEEEZ GONNA BE A BOSS. SHUT UP AND ACCEPT MY OPINION. I WILL NEVER SHUT UP UNTIL THIS TOPIC IS ABANDONED!!!!11 WWAAAAH".

Also, to that same person who said:
1. Mother is popular in Japan.
2. That Porky is the Japanese equivalent of Ridley.

First off, Mother is not nearly as popular a series in Japan as people here think it is. The last one only sold 360K.

Secondly, I have not seen a single Japanese Mother fan suggest Porky, and requests for further Mother newcomers are very uncommon amongst them.
 

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Chrono. Can we expect a new update this week?
 

ChronoBound

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Chrono. Can we expect a new update this week?
Yes, there will be an update. I am sorry that I have been so busy. I am going to have to edit a lot of the analyses I have already done. All of the edits will be done before Wednesday.

I am probably going to post the Kirby series considering that the Zelda series is going to take a lot more time and effort to edit and refine. The Kirby series may not be posted tomorrow though.
 

Chibi-Chan

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I don't think popularity is a big factor in including the characters as your analysis suggests... Every Smash game has included "WTF" characters that nobody expected/wanted/know they even existed. Examples: CFalcon, Ness, G&W, ROB, Climbers.

Granted we already got those slots covered with Villager and WiiFit trainer but I do feel Sakurai puts in whoever the hell he wants and it's not related to polls or anything.
 

MasterOfKnees

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I don't think popularity is a big factor in including the characters as your analysis suggests... Every Smash game has included "WTF" characters that nobody expected/wanted/know they even existed. Examples: CFalcon, Ness, G&W, ROB, Climbers.

Granted we already got those slots covered with Villager and WiiFit trainer but I do feel Sakurai puts in whoever the hell he wants and it's not related to polls or anything.
This suggests otherwise: http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/17/44...director-masahiro-sakurai-character-selection

He is extremely careful about picking characters, he doesn't just "put in whoever the hell he wants," he actually looks at the popularity, Sonic is a living example of him going out of his way to get a popular character in. It'd be stupid not to anyways, it's what really sells the game.
 

BKupa666

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Based on Brawl and Melee, Sakurai sets aside 1-2 spots for retro characters and 1-2 spots for shock characters, but virtually every other character he adds is a popular request. He's also never not added the most popular of requests, with Ridley being the one, labor-intensive exception. Make no mistake, popularity is key.

Also, Villager is not a shock character at all; the only thing that stopped us from believing him (or at least some Animal Crossing character) a lock was Sakurai's own statement, which was all we had to speculate on until...last Tuesday, when we were shown otherwise.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Nearly all Western Smash Bros. fans want Ridley playable. There is only a very small minority that simply screams at the top of their lungs (look at how all the anti-Ridley posts in this topic all comes from only ONE person) about their opinions.

The reality is that there are very few newcomers left that could be labelled Nintendo all-stars and are well-known in general. Ridley is among those few. I really shake my head about how much this thread has become (again due to one guy). "WAAAAAH I HATE RIDLEY. HEEEEZ GONNA BE A BOSS. SHUT UP AND ACCEPT MY OPINION. I WILL NEVER SHUT UP UNTIL THIS TOPIC IS ABANDONED!!!!11 WWAAAAH".

Also, to that same person who said:
1. Mother is popular in Japan.
2. That Porky is the Japanese equivalent of Ridley.

First off, Mother is not nearly as popular a series in Japan as people here think it is. The last one only sold 360K.

Secondly, I have not seen a single Japanese Mother fan suggest Porky, and requests for further Mother newcomers are very uncommon amongst them.
I'm actually all going to throw out against Mother's face that Mother also has Masked Man AND Giygas (Well Giygas would be impossible but...) and in a series like that, it's not the reoccurring part that matters. Meanwhile, Ridley has been the main villain (or close) in almost every Metroid game. Mother's not all that niche in Japan and the U.S. fanbase is for sure nice, but even as a huge Mother fan, I think it can stay the same and fans will be satisfied.
 

ChronoBound

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Sorry for no update. I just have been incredibly busy lately. I have barely had time to dedicate towards anything pertaining to Smash Bros.
 

RomanceDawn

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I can't believe I missed out on this discussion during the reveal. M153R... Man seriously, you are grasping at straws like never before. Sakurai has to get permission to depict Ridley in a way that stays true to Metroid? Hahahaha. No seriously, hahahaha. I suppose ZSS's energy whip is so true to her series counter part where she was playable in 2 very brief segments of her games with no actual whip at all. How about Shiek and her whip and ninja like moves? You are really jumping the gun with that assumption. I mean, that's the kind of thing you say when you've used up your bag of tricks.

As far as we know, Mario was the only character who needed permission on actual aesthetics and this is because he is the face of Nintendo. Pokemon and Link could fit that description as well. You think Sakurai had to ask the creators of Animal Crossing if it was ok to have the villager actually fight and drop bowling balls on other characters? Lets say he did. But oh no, villager doesn't use his tools to harm anyone in the game! He isn't being depicted properly! Your own argument fails on so many levels when applied to so many other characters.

You keep speaking like there was a very thorough decision to not make Ridley a character and to just make him a boss. As far as we can tell he was just glanced over(which I admit is detrimental to my over all argument) without a 2nd thought. We never got any sort of Animal Crossing type insight with such a strong ideal behind it other than "that's impossible. But if we worked hard I guess he'd be slow, is that ok?" That is a far cry from the dimisive nature of Sakurai's Animal Crossing quotes which we all rightfully assumed would condemn the series from ever appearing playable on Smash.

Now then, its 5 years later and things have changed. If Sakurai can go back on his no violent Animal Crossers he can go back on any preconceived notion of Ridley being unplayable.

I'm not saying he is in or even likely, I'm just saying there is real possibility for his inclusion.
 

ChozoBoy

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I can't believe I missed out on this discussion during the reveal. M153R... Man seriously, you are grasping at straws like never before. Sakurai has to get permission to depict Ridley in a way that stays true to Metroid? Hahahaha. No seriously, hahahaha. I suppose ZSS's energy whip is so true to her series counter part where she was playable in 2 very brief segments of her games with no actual whip at all. How about Shiek and her whip and ninja like moves? You are really jumping the gun with that assumption. I mean, that's the kind of thing you say when you've used up your bag of tricks.

As far as we know, Mario was the only character who needed permission on actual aesthetics and this is because he is the face of Nintendo. Pokemon and Link could fit that description as well. You think Sakurai had to ask the creators of Animal Crossing if it was ok to have the villager actually fight and drop bowling balls on other characters? Lets say he did. But oh no, villager doesn't use his tools to harm anyone in the game! He isn't being depicted properly! Your own argument fails on so many levels when applied to so many other characters.

You keep speaking like there was a very thorough decision to not make Ridley a character and to just make him a boss. As far as we can tell he was just glanced over(which I admit is detrimental to my over all argument) without a 2nd thought. We never got any sort of Animal Crossing type insight with such a strong ideal behind it other than "that's impossible. But if we worked hard I guess he'd be slow, is that ok?" That is a far cry from the dimisive nature of Sakurai's Animal Crossing quotes which we all rightfully assumed would condemn the series from ever appearing playable on Smash.

Now then, its 5 years later and things have changed. If Sakurai can go back on his no violent Animal Crossers he can go back on any preconceived notion of Ridley being unplayable.

I'm not saying he is in or even likely, I'm just saying there is real possibility for his inclusion.
Sakurai does have to have character models and presentations approved by the studios that use them. That is already known by us and is not up for debate. There are no "...maybe Pokemon too" or any silly speculations like that. We know for a fact that he has the hardest time with Game Freak because he told us that with the last game and he has said it again since E3. We know from the "Sakurai Asks" interview that even Fire Emblem character models needed to be approved for Brawl. Please don't make up some tripe narrative about how the approval process works and parade it around in this discussion. Smashboards has enough bad unsourced rumors and disinformation making the rounds.

Please pay attention. It doesn't matter if the representation diverges from what is already found in the series, it only matters if Sakurai wants it to diverge and the IP caretakers allow him to do so. Not even Nintendo IPs are homegenous, and you can understand the severity of this in the Iwata Asks on Link's Awakening.
 

RomanceDawn

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Sakurai does have to have character models and presentations approved by the studios that use them. That is already known by us and is not up for debate. There are no "...maybe Pokemon too" or any silly speculations like that. We know for a fact that he has the hardest time with Game Freak because he told us that with the last game and he has said it again since E3. We know from the "Sakurai Asks" interview that even Fire Emblem character models needed to be approved for Brawl. Please don't make up some tripe narrative about how the approval process works and parade it around in this discussion. Smashboards has enough bad unsourced rumors and disinformation making the rounds.

Please pay attention. It doesn't matter if the representation diverges from what is already found in the series, it only matters if Sakurai wants it to diverge and the IP caretakers allow him to do so. Not even Nintendo IPs are homegenous, and you can understand the severity of this in the Iwata Asks on Link's Awakening.

You are right in that he does get permission in that sense, that is why I mentioned Link like with the Twilight Princess Model and Pokemon because that is pretty well known now. That only goes as far as looks, aesthetics. What I was obviously talking about was how the character behaves. I was responding to Ridley not staying true to the series he was born from as far as attacks and size go. Which is why I talked about the characters actual behavior. Smash is full of made up nonsense that in some cases goes completely against what the character has actually done in their own games. Go scream about character models else where.

What ever approval process that goes on with how the characters behave must be extremely loose. I'm arguing against the statement that Sakurai wouldn't get permission to "dumb down" Ridley and give him moves that aren't so devastating. Considering how characters are given made up attacks or attacks from other characters in their series this is simply a non issue as far as Ridley's or anyone's chances go.
 

ChronoBound

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#YouCanDoItSakurai!

You don't need to apologize for anything, we're all understanding that life happens.
Thank you for understanding. I have been completely inundated with higher priorities to get done. Fortunately, I am going to have some free time pretty soon. However, next week I definitely going to be very busy.
 

Ridley1994

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Sakurai,do the right thing and shock us with an amazing new character reveal.By the way lovey series overviews,very insightful.
 

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I miss the analysis'....

:(
 

ChronoBound

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My computer broke which had the essays talking about each of the character unveils and how they affect other characters. The new series analyses i completed were also there. This was really bad luck. Whenever I am able to recover this I will post several new series analyses at once.
 

ChronoBound

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I got good news and bad news.

Good news:
Computer is now up and running.

Bad news:
My computer got completely wiped.

Fortunately, I had most of documents saved onto some discs in case this ever happened, however, it was only for all the documents I had up to June 2011. Needless, to say anything I wrote or saved on my computer after June 2011 has no way of coming back. I lost my entire Smash 4 Character Analysis document and the various essays talking about the three newcomers and how they affect the prospects for various other characters.

The one silver lining is that I did save the document onto a travel drive a few weeks prior to E3. However, its in a form where the only series that were completed that have not yet been posted are Zelda, Kirby, and Star Fox, and obviously they are all in pre-E3 forms.

The question to all of you is, would you like me to post these analyses despite heavy edits likely have to be made for them (as well as for the existing analyses already posted). I will be able to make up progress now, however, I will probably get the smaller series re-written (Kid Icarus, Pikmin, Wario, Mother) finished before the massive ones (Pokemon, Fire Emblem, New Series).

There is also a slew of a change-ups in terms of the contender list.

For one, I think the My Unit is now certainly a contender for a FE newcomer spot (moreso than Lucina). I think if Ike returns, that the My Unit is the most likely character to be added in from FE13.

New series list also has a slew of characters now in the contender spot. Sakurai is pushing new series heavily it seems. Examples now include Advance Wars Represenative, Dillon, and Miyamoto's New IP. Lip is also a classic series contender. Balloon Fighter is probably going to be removed from the classic series contender list due to the Villager's moveset clearly referencing Balloon Fight.
 

FalKoopa

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Well, I'd prefer the analyses to be edited before you post them. I have no problem in waiting longer for them.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I agree with Fal.

Although I'd be happy with anything at this point.

Glad to have you back Chrono. :D
 

TheDivineDeity

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Chrono, would you be willing to say that if any series needs to be cut completely from the roster, it should be the Mother series? In my opinion, although it seem unlikely that such a thing can happen, I feel the removal of the irrelevant series can open up those wasted slots for other potentially useful series to be introduced (namely Layton, Xenoblade, Punch-Out, Rythym Heaven, etc.), so what do you think? Freshen up the roster, even if it's unlikely?
 

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Chrono, would you be willing to say that if any series needs to be cut completely from the roster, it should be the Mother series? In my opinion, although it seem unlikely that such a thing can happen, I feel the removal of the irrelevant series can open up those wasted slots for other potentially useful series to be introduced (namely Layton, Xenoblade, Punch-Out, Rythym Heaven, etc.), so what do you think? Freshen up the roster, even if it's unlikely?
>Mother Series
>Wasted Slots

I don't even...

Lol, do some research. Some of Nintendo's top officials have worked on the Mother series. (Nintendo's president, Satoru Iwata was EarthBound's chief programmer.) For a series that added ANOTHER character in Brawl, that too due to JAPANESE demand (which is all that matters, really.)
 

MasterOfKnees

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Chrono, would you be willing to say that if any series needs to be cut completely from the roster, it should be the Mother series? In my opinion, although it seem unlikely that such a thing can happen, I feel the removal of the irrelevant series can open up those wasted slots for other potentially useful series to be introduced (namely Layton, Xenoblade, Punch-Out, Rythym Heaven, etc.), so what do you think? Freshen up the roster, even if it's unlikely?
Mother is only as irrelevant as Star Fox and F-Zero are. Yes, it's a lot less successful, but it's still more than earned its spot in Smash Bros. Though there's definitely the possiblity that Mother's representation on the roster is gonna get halfed since Lucas is looking like a very safe cut. Either way, with Earthbound getting the A+ treatment by Nintendo on the VC with a full fledged trailer, don't expect to see Ness go anywhere.

The Mother characters aren't stopping Layton, Shulk or Little Mac from appearing in the game either, those characters have other trials to get through, it's not like there's a certain amount of series that's only allowed into the game, and while there's a certain amount of characters they can only fit in before they run out of time that's why they'll most definitely end up cutting a some of the clones and maybe even past unique characters.

Cutting the Mother series entirely is not an option, and personally, and this is very subjective, there's lots of other franchises in the game I'd rather see get removed before it, even some of the big names, it's by far the most unique franchise in the game.

Also, may I ask where you got your Meta Knight avatar? It looks great.

For a series that added ANOTHER character in Brawl, that too due to JAPANESE demand (which is all that matters, really.)
Well, to be fair it was a miracle that Mother got another rep in the first place, and even in Japan it's sort of a cult classic, though it's hardly that as much as it is overseas. Also, japanese demand is only part of what Sakurai is looking into, it's far from everything that matters, if that'd be the case then we might aswell give up on Little Mac and Ridley.
 

TheDivineDeity

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LOL :lol: read everything Chrono said about the Mother series, including it's not really that popular in Japan, it's overrated, and that too many representatives is unwarranted. So, I've got one supporter on my side in this regard. ;)

That being said, eventually the roster WILL reach its limit, whether we like it or not. It's going to happen. :urg: And when it happens, we need to make some drastic cuts if we ever want newcomers again. The Mother series is as expendable as any, but even more so because of its cult like status. Are we going to be denied characters like Geno, Lloyd Irving, and Prof. Layton because of irrelevant Ness and Lucas???
 

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. Are we going to be denied characters like Geno, Lloyd Irving, and Prof. Layton because of irrelevant Ness and Lucas???
Honestly, if Ness or Lucas was removed to make room for Lloyd Irving, or, of all things, Geno, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be pissed. And I find it funny that you call Ness and Lucas irrelevant and then vouch for Geno...
 

BKupa666

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"Relevant" characters aren't inherently more interesting than "irrelevant" ones, nor are they entitled to a roster spot solely because of their "relevance"...that is, unless you're from GamesRadar.
 

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Geno has a HUGE fanbase rooting for him, even if he is more than likely a pipe dream character. Besides, would you rather play as Geno, or Ness? Who would give you more empowerment to play as?
 

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Geno has a HUGE fanbase rooting for him, even if he is more than likely a pipe dream character. Besides, would you rather play as Geno, or Ness? Who would give you more empowerment to play as?
To answer your questions, Ness in a heartbeat.

And Geno's fanbase is a lot smaller now than it was pre-Brawl.
 

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But still noticeable enough for Sakurai to take note, even back in Brawl. Again, I'm not saying he is likely, but would be better off representing other new series (Mario RPGs) than Mother. We'll wait and see how Chrono feels about this.
 

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But still noticeable enough for Sakurai to take note, even back in Brawl. Again, I'm not saying he is likely, but would be better off representing other new series (Mario RPGs) than Mother. We'll wait and see how Chrono feels about this.
That's just the thing, though. Why would Sakurai go through the trouble of adding him as a 3rd Party character when he's waning in requests, he's a minor Mario character, and his company is notoriously hard to work with?
 

TheDivineDeity

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Geno is just an example, there are others. But still, whether we like it or not, Mother's chances of surviving future cuts aren't the greatest, all our biased opinions aside. I mean, what else will we get rid off, other than Jigglypuff? :ohwell:
 

ChronoBound

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LOL :lol: read everything Chrono said about the Mother series, including it's not really that popular in Japan, it's overrated, and that too many representatives is unwarranted. ??
Mother is popular in Japan, but it never sold on the same level as many of Nintendo's other franchises (Mario, DK, Zelda, Kirby, Pokemon, Animal Crossing). For reasons others have already mentioned, that series is never going to be axed from Smash Bros., at the very least Ness is guaranteed to return for Smash 4. Lucas may be cut, but only if the issue of time constraints (or possibly 3DS hardware constraints) comes up.
 

ChronoBound

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Geno is just an example, there are others. But still, whether we like it or not, Mother's chances of surviving future cuts aren't the greatest, all our biased opinions aside. I mean, what else will we get rid off, other than Jigglypuff? :ohwell:
The Mario RPGs likely will not get a playable character in Smash 4, with the exception of Paper Mario who still has a pretty decent shot. Geno's chances I feel now are shot after Sakurai has talked about the need for third-party characters to be "legendary". Along with Balloon Fighter, Geno is probably the only the other character that I am going to remove from the contender list when I make revisions.

Also, I did not mention this in my post yesterday, but I think Barbara the Bat would be another one to throw onto the contender list for the "new series".
 

TheDivineDeity

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What about the other points about Mother I've mentioned? That still has to count for something in regards to its cuts. Otherwise, it's just a slot waster of a franchise. :urg:
 

ChronoBound

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What about the other points about Mother I've mentioned? That still has to count for something in regards to its cuts. Otherwise, it's just a slot waster of a franchise. :urg:
All of the characters you mentioned in support of replacing the Mother characters (Geno, Layton, Lloyd) are third-party characters, which have a much higher bar of entry than Nintendo characters do. All of those characters (aside from maybe Layton) are pretty obscure.

If you were going to bring up characters from Xenoblade or Golden Sun replacing Mother characters, keep in mind the Mother games did sell better than any of the games from those two series (at least in Japan).
 
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