The ULTIMATE Probable Playable Characters In Brawl Analysis Topic!(1 week til Brawl!)

[The rAt]

TP Link is about as adequate representation for the dominant style of current-day Zeldas as Samus is.

AKA: Not adequate at all.

You've basically taken it upon yourself to declare WW Link a silly idea and portray it as factual, and imply that Sakurai agrees with you. Sakurai doesn't say "omg WW Link is just some ghey design change and sux and shouldnt be in" - see, Sakurai has this funny idea that biased stupidity has no place in picking the characters.

And hypocrisy? Oh, right, sure, Paper Mario may be the exact same entity - not a different Mario with a different design, but the same person as Mario, but it's the same situation as two different Links, with different backstories, personalities, relationships, appearances, techniques, etc. Characters are included to represent what warrants representation. Do games featuring this design of Link not warrant representation, since they clearly have not gained any at all thus far?

Your logic basically argues that popularity, uniqueness, workability, appearance, notability, and history is all unimportant in determining if this Link warrants inclusion.

So I gotta wonder how people applaud someone for arguing that all these points should be ignored.

I was going to get involved in this little debate awhile back, but Smashchu was doing such a good job, and this arguement has happened so many times that it's hard to say anything without repeating what countless other people have said multiple times and in better words. However, I think I can say something here without repeating everything that's already been said before;

First of all, Link to a Snitch, if you're going to debate this, do it without insulting people. Ad Hominem is a logical fallacy, and it weakens anything else that comes out your mouth (or hands, since you're probably using a keyboard).

Second of all, for all of your arguements against people's objections to Wind Waker Link's inclusion, you've yet to give a solid reason for why he should be in it. Wind Waker has no current representation? True. Neither does Link's Adventure. Or Link's Awakening. Or the Oracle series. But assuming you can justify why the cell-shadded graphical style needs more representation, why does it have to be Link? After all, there are several characters in Wind Waker who aren't Link that could be included. How about Tingle?

Wind Waker Link isn't the same Link as TP Link. I'll give you that one. They're two distinct people who share the same name, same basic physical abilities, carry the same sword, wear the same outfit, and carry around at least 50% of the same items at any given time. They fight the same villain, save a princess by the same name, and solve similar puzzles, none of which they do in conjunction with one another or in a way that is significantly unique to that Link. They inhabbit the same world, visit many of the same places, and usually have a similar background. They both have the Triforce of Courage, they are both lefthanded (except when the gameplay demands otherwise), and they are both orphans. And they share all of these traits in common with every other Link in the series.

So maybe in comparison to some of the other Links, Wind Waker Link is slightly more unique, but in comparison to basically any other prospective character (with the exception of some Pokemon) his uniqueness is almost completely lost due to the inclusion of another Link. History and appearance I've already addressed. Workability has very little to do with inclusion, since Captain Falcon, Fox, ect. feature moves which have nothing to do with their abilities in games previous to their Smash appearances, however, even if it did, you're arguing that WW Link should be included because of his uniqueness, so that means his moveset would have to consist of moves/items unique solely to Wind Waker. That significantly downsizes the options. Popularity and notability are issues of opinion, and subject to change, and vary depending on their source.

Just out of curiousity (the Mods will probably kill me for asking this), what's your position on whether Sheik (if included) should be a part of Zelda's moveset or not?

NOTE: The above question is not intended to start a debate about whether or not Sheik will/should/won't/shouldn't/potato return, as that issue has already been argued to death everywhere, with all evidence for or against having been presented, and anything that can be said, has been said. I'm just asking a person's oppinion, folks.

Holy crap, it looks like a double whammy as far as deconfirmations are concerned. Both Waluigi (somebody who I said AT status was the best he could hope for) and Stafy (somebody I listed as a probable character in the Other category) both get deconfirmed. Well, at least I get to update my thread. Looks like we may be getting nothing out of CoroCoro, since there was not a character update tonight.

These are the kinds of AT updates we should have. I mean, if Sakurai doesn't want to confirm a character, the next best thing is deconfirming a character, right?
Um... I think I missed the connection between a character update tonight and the CoroCoro information on Saturday. Perhaps you could elaborate?

 

[Gotann]

These are the kinds of AT updates we should have. I mean, if Sakurai doesn't want to confirm a character, the next best thing is deconfirming a character, right?
Um... I think I missed the connection between a character update tonight and the CoroCoro information on Saturday. Perhaps you could elaborate?

That's so true. I hate to say it here but seeing Waluigi as an AT now was a huge relief for me even though I knew he wasn't going in it. As for Stafy, well, I guess that leaves room for others, right? He should keep doing that for all the likely or most demanding characters, that way we won't keep bashing on each other like that.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Hint: You shouldn't argue against WW Link with the debate that "if the currently most popular version of Link with more appearances than any Link in the history of the entire series gets in, all Links should!"

TP Link represents only the lesser game in the franchise to Sakurai's home country.

And...

1. WW Link is not an orphan. Great job destroying your post. He has a sister and a grandmother.

2. WW Link has Kinstone fusing, Ezlo, Mole Mitts, Deku Leaf, Hurricane Slash, Gust Jar, Magic Boomerang, the various Swiftblade techniques, Grappling Hook, etc. Terrible logic, have you.

3. WW Link wears the outfit solely because it's a custom to wear an outfit similar to the Hero of Time on the boy's 12th birthday. He doesn't wear it "just because".

4. Princess Zelda in WW and PH are not Princess Zelda, she is called Tetra. She doesn't identify herself as Princess Zelda more so than she does Tetra.

5. Link fights a completely different villain in Phantom Hourglass.

6. WW Link lives above where Hyrule used to be, on an island that OoT/TP Link certainly have never visited. WW Link has never ever visited Kakariko Village, Hyrule Castle Town, Lon Lon Ranch, Death Mountain, etc. In his second game, he isn't even in Hyrule anymore.

7. He has the Triforce of Courage because he is the "Hero of the Winds" (not "Hero of Time" - see, the developers kind of push the fact that he is a different person pretty hard - they SAY that he's not the Hero of Time). Almost every single comparison between TP and WW Links has been false or grossly exaggerated.

8. WW Link is obviously a well-liked version of Link, or else he would not have been used so much by the developers. If they feel this way about him in the Zelda games, why would they not push him onto Sakurai's lap? WW Link is pretty much the first Link ever to be portrayed as his own entity, at least to the great extent they took to do so.

9. Um, no? At what point do I argue that Sakurai would be banned from using any move used by any variation of WW Link? WW Link (or, if you want to get stupidly technical, "cartoony Link") is the star of both Zelda multiplayer games, The Minish Cap, Wind Waker, and Phantom Hourglass, the first Zelda to be developed by Nintendo for a handheld since the original Link's Awakening. It's pretty laughable, seeing you try to hurt an argument by using hypertechnicalities that haven't even been established by anything stated, certainly nothing I have stated. So the Link we see in SSBB right now isn't TP Link but SSBB Link and can use moves from any Link, but WW Link would be allowed only moves from a single game? Bias + Double standards = FTL. But hey, let's let you cheat.

B: Hurricane Slash
Smash B: Skull Hammer
Up B: Deku Leaf
Down B: Magic Shield
Final Smash: Wind Waker
Grab: Grappling Hook

There you go. I made a moveset from only one game. Hell, I could've debated with you all day about using moves from Phantom Hourglass, since it features the same Link from TWW, but I didn't even need to, apparently.

And yes, they could magically change in the next two months. But I think a million selling title and the best-selling console title for the series in Japan for the past two generations doesn't hurt it much at all.

 

[ChronoBound]

This just in, nothing new came out of CoroCoro. It was all for nothing. Oh well, Sakurai and his secretiveness regarding the roster is going down anyway during the fourth week in January. Your victory is short-lived Sakurai (unless of course the full Brawl roster is crappy or disappointing).

 

[RandomGuy42]

Chrono has asked us to stop this, so this is my final say on the matter.

And hypocrisy? Oh, right, sure, Paper Mario may be the exact same entity - not a different Mario with a different design, but the same person as Mario, but it's the same situation as two different Links, with different backstories, personalities, relationships, appearances, techniques, etc. Characters are included to represent what warrants representation. Do games featuring this design of Link not warrant representation, since they clearly have not gained any at all thus far?

*Cue Lex Luther "Wrong!"*

That's Tingles trophy in Wind Waker form. No representation, right? And this brings me to the crux of my point:

All those things you mentioned:

popularity, uniqueness, workability, appearance, notability, and history

I never once said they were not factors in determining this Link's inclusion. However, there are other ways of portraying this other then a playable character. Link can be easily included as a trophy, and it covers many of the aspects you argue for:

Popularity: Given it's the most popular style in Japan, him and many others could show up.
Uniqueness: Different "Series" of Link, per say, could also go into the trophy text.
Appearance: No explanation should be needed here.
Notability and History: Those bits of text next to the trophies aren't for nothing.

The only one that doesn't fit in perfectly is "workability", as that was part of your argument for a move-set. Even so, it would surprise me to see a "Wind Waker" trophy, depicting how that helped him on his quest. You could also have other characters, such as Makar and Eeolo (sp?), in their trophy form. This gives a much richer look into their backstory and history, rather then slapping in a similar character and going "His grab is now the Grappling Hook, not the Clawshot".

In conclusion, I'm not denying that this sub-series does not deserve it's rightful place in Brawl. It's just that there are simply much better ways of showing this then having a redundant character inclusion, which takes away his uniqueness.

Also:

Sakurai doesn't say "omg WW Link is just some ghey design change and sux and shouldnt be in" - see, Sakurai has this funny idea that biased stupidity has no place in picking the characters.

"Countering" arguments in this way doesn't make your follow-up argument look that good.

 

[ChronoBound]

These are the kinds of AT updates we should have. I mean, if Sakurai doesn't want to confirm a character, the next best thing is deconfirming a character, right?
Um... I think I missed the connection between a character update tonight and the CoroCoro information on Saturday. Perhaps you could elaborate?

I agree. Later today I will be editting out my analyses for Stafy, Waluigi, and Daisy due to them being deconfirmed, so please feel free to read what I wrote on them before they disappear. Also, like mentioned earlier it has been confirmed that there was no new info revealed in CoroCoro, which is a shame.

Also, Mega Man has one last opportunity to be unveiled as a playable character. Next Monday is the 20th anniversary of Mega Man, this would undoubtedly be the best time to show Mega Man if he is a playable character in Brawl.

 

[RandomGuy42]

Your size thing for Wolf is broken, I just noticed.

Also, you should probably take out any mentions of the "poll". I'm beginning to cringe every time I see that used in argument.

 

[ChronoBound]

Your size thing for Wolf is broken, I just noticed.

Also, you should probably take out any mentions of the "poll". I'm beginning to cringe every time I see that used in argument.

Which poll? The Japanese fan-site one or Sakurai's poll?

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

Why dont we wait until we get the game then argue.

 

[RandomGuy42]

The "4 mentions", "2 mentions" one, Sakurai's one. It's pretty well-established now that it wasn't any such thing. (I'm surprised people thought so to begin with)

 

[AlbelNox]

Stafy AND Waluigi DECONFIRMED. Now THAT'S an update. Wow, pretty much more impressive than I thought.

 

[Zevox]

Also, Mega Man has one last opportunity to be unveiled as a playable character. Next Monday is the 20th anniversary of Mega Man, this would undoubtedly be the best time to show Mega Man if he is a playable character in Brawl.

Bah, I seriously doubt that'll happen. No other updates have corresponded to such dates, so why would his? Many speculated Sonic would be updated the day Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games came out, yet his update came instead a month before then, on a date with no apparent significance to him. Others speculated Ridley to be updated on the day Metroid Prime 3 came out, and it never happened. Then there was the expectation to see Snake's update on his creator's birthday, which also fell through. And we all know about the hype regarding December 3rd being the formerly-planned release date meaning we'd be sure to get a great update then - nope, Friend List instead, a blatant, dull filler update.

If Mega Man is updated, it'll be in a time of Sakurai's choosing, and probably when we least expect it. I'll almost guarantee you it won't be on his 20th anniversary.

Zevox

 

[SmashChu]

ChronoBound wants us to stop, so I want to say one last thing.

Just becuase a character is suggested a lot, or popular, doesn't mean they will be playable. Mr. Saturn was pretty high on the Melee poll back before Melee was in production. He scored better then some characters who are in Brawl. But he is not playable. There was also Mew who scored better then Mr. Saturn, but it's not playable either. And Toad as well.

The point is that just because it is suggested, doesn't mean it's in. Sakurai will add everything that was highly suggested in some way. I believe that without a doubt Sakurai will add WW Link as a Trophy, and there will probably be a Zelda game from WW or PH. He will include lots of things, but what becomes a PC is a different story. He weights everything anhd makes his desision. Not every character will be playable. That is the beauty of the Assist trophies. They add characters who won't be playable.

But I digress. Coro Coro thing is upsetting, but not surprising. This is the second time they had a "scoop" that was a rehash. I will say we'll probably get something from Jump Fest. We always get something when Brawl is at an event.

 

[SiegK]

Rofl at Stafy fans.

 

[ChronoBound]

ChronoBound wants us to stop, so I want to say one last thing.

But I digress. Coro Coro thing is upsetting, but not surprising. This is the second time they had a "scoop" that was a rehash. I will say we'll probably get something from Jump Fest. We always get something when Brawl is at an event.

Yeah, I am personally hoping for the final game to be the demo at Jumpfest, considering that Brawl will only be a month from its Japanese-release by then. Also, we will probably get some more confirmed Assist Trophies from the people who play it there. I wish Sakurai had an update showing the real character selection screen, and how many characters are really in the game. This is by far the most secretive he has ever been with any Smash Bros. game. At least with Melee, we had the final character selection screen at the beginning of October (1.5 months beforfe its Japanese release). Not to mention characters were being leaked prior to that, in interviews and stuff. Sakurai seems to have everything about Brawl under lock-and-key. He should have nothing to hide, if there are a lot of playable characters that would just hype people up more for Brawl. The only good reason he would have to hide it would be a lower-than-expected number of characters, that would disappoint people. Couple that with the crappy updates we have been mostly receiving the past two months, and I think we might be heading into another delay.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

ChronoBound wants us to stop, so I want to say one last thing.

Just becuase a character is suggested a lot, or popular, doesn't mean they will be playable. Mr. Saturn was pretty high on the Melee poll back before Melee was in production. He scored better then some characters who are in Brawl. But he is not playable. There was also Mew who scored better then Mr. Saturn, but it's not playable either. And Toad as well.

The point is that just because it is suggested, doesn't mean it's in. Sakurai will add everything that was highly suggested in some way. I believe that without a doubt Sakurai will add WW Link as a Trophy, and there will probably be a Zelda game from WW or PH. He will include lots of things, but what becomes a PC is a different story. He weights everything anhd makes his desision. Not every character will be playable. That is the beauty of the Assist trophies. They add characters who won't be playable.

But I digress. Coro Coro thing is upsetting, but not surprising. This is the second time they had a "scoop" that was a rehash. I will say we'll probably get something from Jump Fest. We always get something when Brawl is at an event.

You've pretty much argued that WW Link shouldn't and/or couldn't get in, not that "he might not get in for all you know". Mr. Saturn, Mew, and Toad are minor-ish characters, WW Link is not. Terrible, terrible comparison.

 

[raul]

Chronobound nailed it when he said WaLuigi and Stafy would become assist trophies.

 

[SmashChu]

You've pretty much argued that WW Link shouldn't and/or couldn't get in, not that "he might not get in for all you know". Mr. Saturn, Mew, and Toad are minor-ish characters, WW Link is not. Terrible, terrible comparison.

Link to the Snitch, you are an idiot. The good majority of your argument has been calling other people stupid or biased, when at every turn you make up usless BS and deny everything in front of you. At every turn you say why my argument is stupid, but bring in no new or hard evidence. It's just a petty internet argument, and you made it that way.

The point is Sakurai won't add every character. WW Link is "minorish" becuase he is just a different Link. That's what you fail to realize. Your asking for a second LINK. Not for Minda. Not for Tingle. But Link a second time. He is minor becuase he is on the same level as Dr. Mario: a carbon copy of another character who is "different" but are understood to be the same person. Dr. Mario is almost in his own universe, but it's never a question to the player whether or he is Mario. The same for all of the Links. They may be a Link from another time period, but it is always Link. The three main characters all are tied together. They continue to battle even though they are different people. All the Links, while different, are understood to be one character: Link.

But the point of the argument is to say why/why not WW Link should be in Brawl. If I was arguing "he might not get in for all you know" then I would have said just that.

But my last post was meant to be a wrap up. Like a debate, you too can have one final though, but it's understood that that is it. No more proceeding. However, you are just digging your already deep hole deeper. You have failed to bring any firm arguments, and slander everyone else in the process. ChronoBound wanted us to stop a long time ago. This is only my second post after his, but you have made many. STOP. The only place left top go is down.

Yeah, I am personally hoping for the final game to be the demo at Jumpfest, considering that Brawl will only be a month from its Japanese-release by then. Also, we will probably get some more confirmed Assist Trophies from the people who play it there.

I don't think we'll see that final version as a demo there. IIRC Melee's demo was always the same at all of it's events. But, I assume that a character will be confirmed at the event. E3 confirmed DK, Fall 06 conference showed Fox, and the Fall 07 conference showed Sonic. If Smash is involved at an event, a character is to follow. Maybe Falcon.

I wish Sakurai had an update showing the real character selection screen, and how many characters are really in the game. This is by far the most secretive he has ever been with any Smash Bros. game. At least with Melee, we had the final character selection screen at the beginning of October (1.5 months beforfe its Japanese release). Not to mention characters were being leaked prior to that, in interviews and stuff. Sakurai seems to have everything about Brawl under lock-and-key. He should have nothing to hide, if there are a lot of playable characters that would just hype people up more for Brawl. The only good reason he would have to hide it would be a lower-than-expected number of characters, that would disappoint people. Couple that with the crappy updates we have been mostly receiving the past two months, and I think we might be heading into another delay.

I don't think it's because he has too few characters. I mean, he's already confirmed 11 newcomers on the site as of now. The starting roster so far has 20 characters, almost as any characters as Melee had total (and that game had clones).

Sakurai, it seems, is just taking a different approach to reveling info. He's having it trinkle down from the Dojo, keeping the hype train going. Or was, till this delay. But it might explain why the updates are so bad. He may be holding back the few gems left to show as it gets closer to the Japan and America release dates. He's making sure to be more tight lipped to keep everyone in anticipation. It's a type of positive reinforcement; time-variable to be exact. With Melee, eh had less control, and everything was known before the game came out. We also knew most of the roster. So, with Melee, he is keeping more things hidden, showing everything slowly to build us up. He hypes us by showing something epic about the game at a random interval. We won't know any of the secret characters, so we'll have to buy the game. It's all about keeping us on our toes.

The updates are getting slightly better. Rotation gives us another game mode that's new. Mario Curciut gives us a long awaited course. Lastly, this update gives us some interesting assist. Not to mention that Options was not a filler and one I expected a while back.

I think things will be looking up. There are very few updates left, but many may still continue after the Japanese launch. He will show us some good updates in due time. But these bad ones may just be to keep the dojo up during the delay. I got a bit off topic. I think all of this is done to keep us excited for the game, and have people looking onto the Dojo. The game is much more received then Melee was, which means that this game is going to sell a lot. Maybe even more then Halo 3 is Nintendo advertises it well.

 

[Mr fN LeON]

so wat was on the magazine den??

lol at waluigi fans

 

[SmashChu]

so wat was on the magazine den??

lol at waluigi fans

Information straight from the Dojo.

 

[ChronoBound]

Since people won't shutup about Wind Waker Link and a possible Zelda newcomer, I will throw my two-cents in.

Outside of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, there are no main re-occurring Zelda characters (unless you count Tingle, however, he has the disadvantage of being hated by Western Zelda fans). This thus makes it very difficult to choose a fourth Zelda character. The reason why Sheik got in Melee was because she was an extremely popular character from Ocarina of Time, and when Melee had began development, Ocarina of Time was still fresh in everyone's head. Young Link got in because Sakurai had the choice of either adding one more non-clone character (which would have been Ganondorf) or six clone characters, and he thought that fans would enjoy the six clones more over the one original.

(Note: this is just assumption and logic from here on out)
Sakurai pressed for time needed to come up with some quick clones. Star Fox was still a very popular and very good series at this time, so he probably decided to make Falco a Fox clone since they are from the same team and was the second-most popular member of Star Fox. Sakurai knew that fans would have his head if he didn't include Ganondorf as a playable character, so he decided to make Ganondorf a clone of Captain Falcon. He made Dr. Mario a clone of Mario since at that time Sakurai did not like Wario (he did not warm up to Wario until the WarioWare series), and probably because of Dr. Mario 64, and due to how he would not have to hire another voice actor and even use the same voice effects for him freeing up some more time to focus on other clones. Pichu was made a clone of Pikachu due to how popular he was in Japan back during 2000 (may I remind you of the Pichu Bros. short episodes). Roy was made a clone of Marth because Nintendo wanted to adverstise FE6. So then we are left with Young Link, a voice actor was already known for Young Link, and a movset made even easier.

The whole reason Young Link got in was convenience. The whole reason was Sheik got in was because of popularity (much of her popularity among Zelda fans has faded) and Ocarina of Time was still fairly recent (SSBM was released three years after Ocarina of Time). The only Zelda character guaranteed to return is Ganondorf, due to how popular and important he is to the Zelda series. Sheik is likely due to return simply because of how popular she has become among Smash Bros, fans and because she has an original moveset.

Flash foward to this debate, we have people arguing who is the most deserving Zelda newcomer. To tell you the truth, there is no Zelda character that is particularly deserving. Wind Waker Link should get prioritiy over Midna simply for the fact that he was the hero of two games, whereas Midna is another one-shot character (like Sheik). However, there are much more important characters in other series that need to show up, so I am not sure deserves priority just yet.

However, what you all don't take into account is how random and wily Sakurai is, nobody even got close to guessing Melee's roster, and I would not be surprised if it is not the same case with Brawl. The only case this time is that he is even more secretive. I thought that if there would be a second Metroid character, it would have been Ridley, turns out it was Zero Suit Samus. A lot of people were dismissing Red as a plausible character, turns out we get Pokemon Trainer (who is modeled after Red). A lot of people did not think Sakurai would replace a character who starred in two previous Smash Bros. games and was the hero of the only game in his series to leave Japan (Ness) with a character from a game that sold less and was only released in Japan (Lucas). Sakurai loves screwing with people's heads above all else, which is why I loathe him so much (though I love his games).

Brawl's Japanese release is during the fourth week of January, we can hold on a little while longer. We have made it this far, many debates have been ended with victory (Ike, DIddy Kong, King Dedede, Lucas, Pokemon Trainer, and Sonic) for some and disappointment for others (Little Mac, Deoxys, Lyn, Samurai Goroh, Stafy, Waluigi). The liberation from this bickering and insults is almost upon us, the veil of secrecy will soon be lifted. Until then we need to respect each others opinion and just hope for the best in regards to Sakurai's decisions regarding the final roster.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Link to the Snitch, you are an idiot. The good majority of your argument has been calling other people stupid or biased, when at every turn you make up usless BS and deny everything in front of you. At every turn you say why my argument is stupid, but bring in no new or hard evidence. It's just a petty internet argument, and you made it that way.

The point is Sakurai won't add every character. WW Link is "minorish" becuase he is just a different Link. That's what you fail to realize. Your asking for a second LINK. Not for Minda. Not for Tingle. But Link a second time. He is minor becuase he is on the same level as Dr. Mario: a carbon copy of another character who is "different" but are understood to be the same person. Dr. Mario is almost in his own universe, but it's never a question to the player whether or he is Mario. The same for all of the Links. They may be a Link from another time period, but it is always Link. The three main characters all are tied together. They continue to battle even though they are different people. All the Links, while different, are understood to be one character: Link.

But the point of the argument is to say why/why not WW Link should be in Brawl. If I was arguing "he might not get in for all you know" then I would have said just that.

But my last post was meant to be a wrap up. Like a debate, you too can have one final though, but it's understood that that is it. No more proceeding. However, you are just digging your already deep hole deeper. You have failed to bring any firm arguments, and slander everyone else in the process. ChronoBound wanted us to stop a long time ago. This is only my second post after his, but you have made many. STOP. The only place left top go is down.

Yeah, I guess being the most significant version of Link is sooo minor.

Also, fun fact: I actually have provided 100% facts and evidence and haven't made anything up. Link in Wind Waker is set up with a significantly different backstory, a different appearance, different relationships, different moves, etc. Dr. Mario is Mario playing doctor. WW Link is probably the most distinctive and unique Link, both in appearance and plot.

So, I gotta ask: At what point does your opinion of WW Link not deserving to be in reflect on what Sakurai feels? If Sakurai feels that there needs to be adequate representation for the cartoony Zeldas (not "representation", I said adequate representation), then he will put in WW Link. And I doubt he would ignore a significant number of games in the series, and the fact that Phantom Hourglass is already half-way to outselling Twilight Princess - and is the most recent game.

It's not that my arguments are bad, it's that you're demanding that we only focus on one aspect of the argument: Is WW Link a Link? The fact is that you can't or haven't established that Sakurai feels the same as you in any way.

 

[ChronoBound]

Yeah, I guess being the most significant version of Link is sooo minor.

Also, fun fact: I actually have provided 100% facts and evidence and haven't made anything up. Link in Wind Waker is set up with a significantly different backstory, a different appearance, different relationships, different moves, etc. Dr. Mario is Mario playing doctor. WW Link is probably the most distinctive and unique Link, both in appearance and plot.

So, I gotta ask: At what point does your opinion of WW Link not deserving to be in reflect on what Sakurai feels? If Sakurai feels that there needs to be adequate representation for the cartoony Zeldas (not "representation", I said adequate representation), then he will put in WW Link. And I doubt he would ignore a significant number of games in the series, and the fact that Phantom Hourglass is already half-way to outselling Twilight Princess - and is the most recent game.

It's not that my arguments are bad, it's that you're demanding that we only focus on one aspect of the argument: Is WW Link a Link? The fact is that you can't or haven't established that Sakurai feels the same as you in any way.

Did you just skip over my post?

I already said it is pointless to keep this arguing up, and that I would like you to stop because it is disrupting my thread.

 

[SmashChu]

@Link to the Snitch:

But my last post was meant to be a wrap up. Like a debate, you too can have one final though, but it's understood that that is it. No more proceeding. However, you are just digging your already deep hole deeper. You have failed to bring any firm arguments, and slander everyone else in the process. ChronoBound wanted us to stop a long time ago. This is only my second post after his, but you have made many. STOP. The only place left top go is down.

What part of "argument over" don't you get. Quit will you still have some dignity left.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

@Link to the Snitch:

What part of "argument over" don't you get. Quit will you still have some dignity left.

You sure are taking the high position. Caring more about getting the last word in edge-wise, but also lambasting me for responding.

Please, do not speak about dignity. It's really awkward hearing such a suggestion from a pitiful husk of a man.

 

[Mysteryfox1]

Why did you put Skull kid under Midna??? Skull kid has a higher chance then Midna

 

[Zevox]

Why did you put Skull kid under Midna??? Skull kid has a higher chance then Midna

How so? Hes a less popular character, has the exact same number of appearances in the series (as an individual - remember that Skull Kids are a race, not just one person, so the ones in OoT and the one in TP are not the one from Majora's Mask, which seems to be the one his cult is clambering for), and is of inferior significance to his one game compared to Midna in hers (where Midna is all but the main character of TP, Skull Kid is just a puppet vessel for Majora's Mask). From where I'm sitting, Skull Kid is behind not only Midna, but Young "Wind Waker" Link, Vaati (major villain of multiple games, at least as popular as Skull Kid) and probably Tingle as well (uber popularity and his own series in Japan).

Like with the Black Knight, I can't see how anyone knowledgeable about his series can take Skull Kid seriously as a Brawl PC candidate.

Zevox

 

[~Krystal~]

Wow Smash Chu. I am appalled. Linktothesnitch brought up excellent points. Mind you, this sort of discussion is on-topic (Probable Playable Characters in Brawl Analysis Topic). Whether or not Chrono wanted you to stop is irrelevant. He made a topic that opened the floodgates for this sort of discussion and he knows it.

 

[ChronoBound]

Why did you put Skull kid under Midna??? Skull kid has a higher chance then Midna

You sure are taking the high position. Caring more about getting the last word in edge-wise, but also lambasting me for responding.

Please, do not speak about dignity. It's really awkward hearing such a suggestion from a pitiful husk of a man.

Wow Smash Chu. I am appalled. Linktothesnitch brought up excellent points. Mind you, this sort of discussion is on-topic (Probable Playable Characters in Brawl Analysis Topic). Whether or not Chrono wanted you to stop is irrelevant. He made a topic that opened the floodgates for this sort of discussion and he knows it.

I thought I ended this topic a few posts back. This isn't the "Debate who is going to be the Zelda newcomer" topic, feel free to start a new thread, but just keep your flame war and debate out of here, or else I am going to start marking people for thread-disrupting.

 

[MajinNecro69]

Among new characters I'd like to see, include:

-Geno (He is a cool character, but I don't find him to be a decent 3rd Party Character. Wasn't he in the Superstar Saga games as a cameo? If that is true, he seems to most likely be a Mario character more than a 3rd Party)
-Paper Mario (He would make for an interesting move set, and 2D could use some more representation. The only thing against him is that he is the "alternate form" of an existing character, much in the same way Young Link is of Link.)
-Midna & Wolf Link (Quadrupeds were confirmed to be able to pull off with Ivysaur, why not Wolf Link? Since this is mostly twilight stuff, Midna and/or Wolf Link is likely.)
-Lucario (Lucario would definitely be an awesome fighting Pokemon to add to his series, and a great rep for the 4th gen, since we need a Pokemon who ISN'T a first gen rep.)
-King K. Rool (The only villain of the Donkey Kong series, he'd make a great part of Subspace, as well as an interesting big fighter.)
-Ridley (My top choice for unconfirmed characters in Brawl, Ridley's my favorite Metroid character of all time. All I can hope for is that Kraid or a Metroid Queen is the Metroid boss in Subspace, so that Ridley is free to be a playable character.)
-Claus (Not a bad idea, and for such a popular series, he'd make another great villain. Since he has a sword, he could have a Luigi-fied moveset of Lucas. The only problem is that it would spoil Mother 3 dramatically and ensure that no one in America would buy it...)
-Captain Olimar (The Pikmin series is another Miyamoto brain child, and a unique one at that. One of the more popular GameCube games and a tie-in to unlock a trophy in Melee, I'd love to see Olimar.)
-Isaac (Golden Sun was my favorite original RPG for the GBA, hands down. Isaac is awesome, and could wield a number of Djinn-related spells in addition to sword combat. He could be the even sword-wielder between Marth & Ike.)
-Bomberman (I love this guy, and would love to see him. Megaman was already in a high-profile fighting game, give Bomberman a chance!)
-Chrono (The ultimate game on the SNES, Chrono Trigger would be a great addition from Square. Only problem is the lack of a new game in over a decade, and similarities to Ike, Marth, and Isaac.)

Characters I doubt or don't prefer:
-Bowser Jr. (I hate him, I view him as a prime example of where the Mario series started to take a downfall [Sunshine]. Although, he'd be interesting to beat up :D)
-Krystal (Once again, a "shark jump" character that seems to be plaguing the Star Fox series. She would have an interesting moveset though.)
-Vaati (If he were in Phantom Hourglass, we might have something here. Otherwise, he's not entirely likely.)
-Black Falcon (F-Zero seems to be shafted this time around, what with Mario Circuit replacing the Mute City stage and no updates SINCE Samurai Goroh's relegation to Assist Trophy status.)

 

[Mr fN LeON]

Among new characters I'd like to see, include:

-Geno (He is a cool character, but I don't find him to be a decent 3rd Party Character. Wasn't he in the Superstar Saga games as a cameo? If that is true, he seems to most likely be a Mario character more than a 3rd Party)
-Paper Mario (He would make for an interesting move set, and 2D could use some more representation. The only thing against him is that he is the "alternate form" of an existing character, much in the same way Young Link is of Link.)
-Midna & Wolf Link (Quadrupeds were confirmed to be able to pull off with Ivysaur, why not Wolf Link? Since this is mostly twilight stuff, Midna and/or Wolf Link is likely.)
-Lucario (Lucario would definitely be an awesome fighting Pokemon to add to his series, and a great rep for the 4th gen, since we need a Pokemon who ISN'T a first gen rep.)
-King K. Rool (The only villain of the Donkey Kong series, he'd make a great part of Subspace, as well as an interesting big fighter.)
-Ridley (My top choice for unconfirmed characters in Brawl, Ridley's my favorite Metroid character of all time. All I can hope for is that Kraid or a Metroid Queen is the Metroid boss in Subspace, so that Ridley is free to be a playable character.)
-Claus (Not a bad idea, and for such a popular series, he'd make another great villain. Since he has a sword, he could have a Luigi-fied moveset of Lucas. The only problem is that it would spoil Mother 3 dramatically and ensure that no one in America would buy it...)
-Captain Olimar (The Pikmin series is another Miyamoto brain child, and a unique one at that. One of the more popular GameCube games and a tie-in to unlock a trophy in Melee, I'd love to see Olimar.)
-Isaac (Golden Sun was my favorite original RPG for the GBA, hands down. Isaac is awesome, and could wield a number of Djinn-related spells in addition to sword combat. He could be the even sword-wielder between Marth & Ike.)
-Bomberman (I love this guy, and would love to see him. Megaman was already in a high-profile fighting game, give Bomberman a chance!)
-Chrono (The ultimate game on the SNES, Chrono Trigger would be a great addition from Square. Only problem is the lack of a new game in over a decade, and similarities to Ike, Marth, and Isaac.)

Characters I doubt or don't prefer:
-Bowser Jr. (I hate him, I view him as a prime example of where the Mario series started to take a downfall [Sunshine]. Although, he'd be interesting to beat up :D)
-Krystal (Once again, a "shark jump" character that seems to be plaguing the Star Fox series. She would have an interesting moveset though.)
-Vaati (If he were in Phantom Hourglass, we might have something here. Otherwise, he's not entirely likely.)
-Black Falcon (F-Zero seems to be shafted this time around, what with Mario Circuit replacing the Mute City stage and no updates SINCE Samurai Goroh's relegation to Assist Trophy status.)

So the mario series is in a downfall rite now? didn't galaxy just come out which is really good game?

Stop hatin on sunshine it was a good game so SHUT UP!!

 

[SmashChu]

@Link to the Snitch:Since you fail to listen to what me or anyone else says, I've reported your post to the mods for belittling, derailing the topic, and flaming.

The argument is over. Do not talk about it any more. ChronoBound has told you to stop. IT ENDS HERE.

Sorry for that. Now, I ment to say this in my last post, but I cant seem to edit it.

@Link to the Snitch:

But my last post was meant to be a wrap up. Like a debate, you too can have one final though, but it's understood that that is it. No more proceeding. However, you are just digging your already deep hole deeper. You have failed to bring any firm arguments, and slander everyone else in the process. ChronoBound wanted us to stop a long time ago. This is only my second post after his, but you have made many. STOP. The only place left top go is down.

What part of "argument over" don't you get. Quit will you still have some dignity left.

@ChronoBound:I've always felt that if we have Link, Zelda and Ganondorf, we're good. There aren't many consistent Zelda characters beyond those three. It is the same reason I feel Minda and Tetra won't get in.

However, what you all don't take into account is how random and wily Sakurai is, nobody even got close to guessing Melee's roster, and I would not be surprised if it is not the same case with Brawl. The only case this time is that he is even more secretive. I thought that if there would be a second Metroid character, it would have been Ridley, turns out it was Zero Suit Samus. A lot of people were dismissing Red as a plausible character, turns out we get Pokemon Trainer (who is modeled after Red). A lot of people did not think Sakurai would replace a character who starred in two previous Smash Bros. games and was the hero of the only game in his series to leave Japan (Ness) with a character from a game that sold less and was only released in Japan (Lucas). Sakurai loves screwing with people's heads above all else, which is why I loathe him so much (though I love his games).

I don't think he is as random as you make him out to be. There is reason in his madness. Lucas replacing Ness started all the way back with Melee. He said on the site that if Mother 3 came out, he would have replaced Ness for Lucas.

The other two (ZSS and PT) are things Sakurai loves to do. These ideas aren't 100% new. People have suggested armor less Samus and PT before, but not in the way Sakurai implemented it. So it's not like he is some mystery man. He develops the game with something in mind. But you have to truly see though his madness to understand him.

But the reason I always thought the poll was the best indicator for characters from Melee. If we exclude the clones we have Bowser, Peach, Ice Climber, Zelda, Sheik, Marth, Mewtwo and Mr. Game & Watch. Excluding Game & Watch and the IC, all of those characters were high on the poll. So characters who are high on the poll (like Ridley and Krystal) are probably getting in Brawl.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

How so? Hes a less popular character, has the exact same number of appearances in the series (as an individual - remember that Skull Kids are a race, not just one person, so the ones in OoT and the one in TP are not the one from Majora's Mask, which seems to be the one his cult is clambering for), and is of inferior significance to his one game compared to Midna in hers (where Midna is all but the main character of TP, Skull Kid is just a puppet vessel for Majora's Mask). From where I'm sitting, Skull Kid is behind not only Midna, but Young "Wind Waker" Link, Vaati (major villain of multiple games, at least as popular as Skull Kid) and probably Tingle as well (uber popularity and his own series in Japan).

Like with the Black Knight, I can't see how anyone knowledgeable about his series can take Skull Kid seriously as a Brawl PC candidate.

Zevox

Skull Kid has far more significance to the series and his own game than Midna has. He was the main villain he had an actual good personality (Which cant be said for some imps...) and is the most significant character in the most unique and different game in the Zelda series.

The Skull Kid supporters are rooting for Skull Kid while wearing Majoras mask, which can be considered a single character / personality. His chances may not be high, but my god he is better than that waste of a character Midna.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Didn't the TP Skullkid talk about something that happened in OoT, and that skullkid was the same one that wore Majora's Mask...

So...wouldn't that make the TP Skullkid the same one?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Waluigi may be out, but Bowser Jr. still has a chance.

 

[MajinNecro69]

So the mario series is in a downfall rite now? didn't galaxy just come out which is really good game?

Stop hatin on sunshine it was a good game so SHUT UP!!

I personally played it, and beat it, IMHO, it was a disappointment. Also, it is sandwiched in between several lackluster Mario Parties and Sports. That period is what I was referring to, the Gamecube Days of Mario, when it seemed that a good helping of the games were disappointing (to me) or bad (to me).

 

[Ginger9001]

Didn't the TP Skullkid talk about something that happened in OoT, and that skullkid was the same one that wore Majora's Mask...

So...wouldn't that make the TP Skullkid the same one?

If he is, he had some major surgery. xD

 

[Zevox]

Skull Kid has far more significance to the series and his own game than Midna has. He was the main villain he had an actual good personality (Which cant be said for some imps...) and is the most significant character in the most unique and different game in the Zelda series.

The Skull Kid supporters are rooting for Skull Kid while wearing Majoras mask, which can be considered a single character / personality. His chances may not be high, but my god he is better than that waste of a character Midna.

Skull was most certainly not the main villain of his game. That was Majora's Mask. Skull Kid was just its tool, a puppet it dominated and used up until it decided to discard him when Link showed up with the Giants. Midna, on the other hand, was pretty well the focus of her game - it is her realm and her powers that Zant and Ganondorf are abusing, it is her quest that Link gets caught up in, it is her knowledge that allows Link and her to find a way to fight back. All shes missing is being playable to be its inarguable main character.

As for personality, thats a ludicrous claim. Midna had more character development and personality than any other character the Zelda series has ever had, probably more than the big 3 combined even - thats part of why so many people like her. Skull Kid was nothing but a lonely kid of his namesake race. Little personality (just enough to explain why he had the Mask and was so easily dominated by it), no development at all.

Didn't the TP Skullkid talk about something that happened in OoT, and that skullkid was the same one that wore Majora's Mask...

So...wouldn't that make the TP Skullkid the same one?

Not that I recall, and no it wouldn't. Even if the Skull Kid from TP was somehow the same as one of the three from OoT (and how one would survive a century is beyond me, not to mention why it would look so different if it did), it wouldn't be the one from MM, since that game took place entirely in an alternate universe (hence why so many characters were totally different in it from OoT, such as Koume and Kotake being shop owners instead of Gerudo witches and Ganondorf's mothers).

Zevox

 

[RDK]

Midna as a PC in Brawl would be completely ridiculous. While we're at it, why don't we throw in Skull Kid and every single Goron in the Zelda universe.

Minor characters FTL.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

Skull was most certainly not the main villain of his game. That was Majora's Mask. Skull Kid was just its tool, a puppet it dominated and used up until it decided to discard him when Link showed up with the Giants. Midna, on the other hand, was pretty well the focus of her game - it is her realm and her powers that Zant and Ganondorf are abusing, it is her quest that Link gets caught up in, it is her knowledge that allows Link and her to find a way to fight back. All shes missing is being playable to be its inarguable main character.

As for personality, thats a ludicrous claim. Midna had more character development and personality than any other character the Zelda series has ever had, probably more than the big 3 combined even - thats part of why so many people like her. Skull Kid was nothing but a lonely kid of his namesake race. Little personality (just enough to explain why he had the Mask and was so easily dominated by it), no development at all.


Not that I recall, and no it wouldn't. Even if the Skull Kid from TP was somehow the same as one of the three from OoT (and how one would survive a century is beyond me, not to mention why it would look so different if it did), it wouldn't be the one from MM, since that game took place entirely in an alternate universe (hence why so many characters were totally different in it from OoT, such as Koume and Kotake being shop owners instead of Gerudo witches and Ganondorf's mothers).

Zevox

What!? Majoras mask and Skull Kid are generally used to describe the characters combined in Majoras mask. And Majoras mask and Skull Kid combination wasn't one sided either, Majoras mask was seeping out the Skull Kids buried feelings.

But seriously of course the events of TP couldn't have happened without Midna, she is one of the main characters same with Skull Kid, if he didn't steal the Ocarina of time and Epona from Link then the events of that game would not have happened, and Midna had a connection with Zant? So what, Skull Kid had a connection with almost every character and location in Termina.

But now look, this is what I hate about Midna supporters they make it out as if Midna is so great, guess what? SHE ISN'T. She does not like things - She likes things, that is some character development but it isn't exactly that amazing. And saying that she has more personality than the big three combined? Thats just shows what lengths you would go to, especially considering Link actually grows from a child into an adult in a game and that Ganondorf has had a developing personality spanning numerous games.

Midna supporters here is a message from the entire Smash and Zelda community: SHUT THE **** UP!

~Unsubscribes~

(And don't even get me started on that hypocrite SmashChu).