The Ultimate Antagonist Thread (Talking About The Villains Trend)

[Captain Shades]

Shulk...

Spoiler: Spoilers for Xenoblade 1

Since Robin getting a Grima costume counts as a villain, what if Shulk got a Zanza costume? Would that count as well since Shulk is supposed to be a vassal of Zanza.

Pretty cool design, I’d support.

 

[letsgetsmashing]

I think Medusa getting in would be really cool as she would be the first female villain in the game!
Also Porky Minch would be really awesome especially if he fought in his machine

 

[NessAtc.]

The thing about this "Villains" theme is that there's no hard evidence to support it. The leaked "theme" of it seems to have been mostly in relation to K Rool's trailer, and Sakurai even said that Dark Samus was included as an echo because there was fan demand for it. Sure, we're getting a lot more villains than we usually do, but that could also simply be attributed to the fact that the characters added thus far aside from Inklings have been a long time coming and picked from the ballot

Hell, with Sakurai's career being kickstarted by Castlevania, it's surprising that it took this long for Castlevania to make it in.

 

[Captain Shades]

The thing about this "Villains" theme is that there's no hard evidence to support it. The leaked "theme" of it seems to have been mostly in relation to K Rool's trailer, and Sakurai even said that Dark Samus was included as an echo because there was fan demand for it. Sure, we're getting a lot more villains than we usually do, but that could also simply be attributed to the fact that the characters added thus far aside from Inklings have been a long time coming and picked from the ballot

Hell, with Sakurai's career being kickstarted by Castlevania, it's surprising that it took this long for Castlevania to make it in.

There was no leak, it was just an assumption I created based on the last Smash title. The last Smash title seemed to bring in more female fighters due to complaints from the Smash community with characters like Lucina and Palutena, Rosalina, and many avatar characters that could be female, like Robin or Wii Fit. They also split up the female fighters, making the roster seem like it has more females, as some fighters were connected (ZSS and Shiek) and were popular so they needed to keep them in as the 3DS couldn’t handle transformations. The game even ended with a female fighter in the form of Bayonetta, the first 3rd party female to be included as a fighter. Well these characters certainly had other reasons for their inclusions, the demand could have easily steered Smash in a certain direction when picking fighters.

As for Ultimate, many complained about a lack of villains going into it, so I can see Sakurai answering that complaint with a swarm of villains, just like the Smash 4 females. Yes, the villains picked so far were popular, but so was Rosalina and even Palutena. Going after popular picks doesn’t hurt the trend, it probably only heightens it. Dark Samus does strike me as weird though, as it seemed like no one asked for her before Ultimate was revealed at E3. She feels more like a criteria character than a popular pick, filling the complaints about a lack of villains and Metroid reps. I should also mention that they brought Wolf back to highlight even more villains.

I think it’s just how you look at it, if you don’t see any kind of trend happening, then good on you, but me and some others seem to think otherwise.

 

[NessAtc.]

That's all well and good, but that doesn't so much as suggest a theme as a trend. The tagline is "Everyone is here" so of course Sakurai would put in longtime fan favourites.

That's just my view though. We shall see if we get more villains and if so, how many more.

 

[Aetheri]

As far as villains go

Skull Kid would now be my first choice since both Dark Samus and Ridley made it in.

Additionally Shadow (of course more of an anti-villain like Meta Knight but plays antagonistic roles) as well as possibly Medusa for echo fighters.

Heihachi has been considered by Sakurai before and would be a good rep for Namco and the Tekken series.

 

[ErenJager]

Giegue could be an original character.
Since his influence causes mind control he could have mind control abilities. Such as taking control of another character or assist trophies.

He could also be an amalgamated echo similar to that of Chrom. In that he borrows from Mewtwo, Ness, and Lucas.

It's interesting to note the company that designed Giegue went onto design Pokemon. Hence the similarities.

He completes the Mother series trifecta as a rep from the first mother game. He was the main antagonist of mother 1 & 2 and greatly influenced the plot of 3.

 

[Captain Shades]

As far as villains go

Skull Kid would now be my first choice since both Dark Samus and Ridley made it in.

Additionally Shadow (of course more of an anti-villain like Meta Knight but plays antagonistic roles) as well as possibly Medusa for echo fighters.

Heihachi has been considered by Sakurai before and would be a good rep for Namco and the Tekken series.

Lucky for you, Skull Kid stands to have a pretty big shot at making it now.

I can also see Medusa being an Echo. They already have a Head model for her thanks to the Castlevania stage, so it could work. Plus Sakurai loves Kid Icarus, so I’m sure he wouldn’t hesitate to throw in a 4th character. Also, since you brought up Meta Knight, he could have an evil echo in the form of Dark Metaknight.

Giegue could be an original character.
Since his influence causes mind control he could have mind control abilities. Such as taking control of another character or assist trophies.

He could also be an amalgamated echo similar to that of Chrom. In that he borrows from Mewtwo, Ness, and Lucas.

It's interesting to note the company that designed Giegue went onto design Pokemon. Hence the similarities.

He completes the Mother series trifecta as a rep from the first mother game. He was the main antagonist of mother 1 & 2 and greatly influenced the plot of 3.

I keep seeing this suggested, my only question is, can echoes be of characters not from the same franchise?

 

[Captain Shades]

It seems that rumors have surfaced and Black Knight and Skull Kid May be the front runners of the possible up coming villains for Smash. I would love to see them in, but if we were to get a new echo villain, than Dark Meta Knight or Galacta Knight I hope would join in as a Kirby villain to play as.

Also Meta Knight isn’t considered a villain anymore, but was in the villain trailer leading up to K Rool, maybe this was a hint at a potential evil echo for Meta Knight.

 

[Vingag]

It seems that rumors have surfaced and Black Knight and Skull Kid May be the front runners of the possible up coming villains for Smash. I would love to see them in, but if we were to get a new echo villain, than Dark Meta Knight or Galacta Knight I hope would join in as a Kirby villain to play as.

Also Meta Knight isn’t considered a villain anymore, but was in the villain trailer leading up to K Rool, maybe this was a hint at a potential evil echo for Meta Knight.

Well to be fair, the trailer did state "Rivals", even though most other characters shown were very much antagonists. However Meta Knight still fits into the "rival" category (just like Dedede is still a villain of the Kirby series. Just because all three of these characters have been on friendly terms for the past few games doesn't quite overwrite all their history. Sort of like how Bowser has joined forces with Mario plenty of times- and even at the end of Odyssey the two seem to share a quiet moment together- but Bowser is still very much the villain of the Mario franchise).

 

[Blackwolf666]

Villains... I suppose some interesting picks would be

Classic Ganon
Viridi
Eggman/Robotnik
Malos
Deoxys (not sure to classify this one as a villain though)

 

[Onua]

I think medusa is actually incredibly likely. I really do hope we see her make it in finally

 

[Multi-bottle Thief]

I see a lot of people a little confused as to why Meta Knight would be in the K. Rool trailer as a rival. I actually have a personal theory that the "Meta Knight" in the K. Rool trailer is actually Dark Meta Knight. This would actually make a lot of sense

First off, Meta Knight can't even be considered a rival to Kirby anymore. He's only fought Kirby in 6 canon games, and only ONE of them had Meta Knight try to kill Kirby out of his own choice (in Kirby's Adventure, his motives are very unclear as to what he's trying to do, and in Squeak Squad, he was trying to stop Kirby from unintentionally releasing a demon). There's also the fact that Meta Knight is an established hero in the Kirby lore since Amazing Mirror, and he was a hero in the Subspace Emissary, so it wouldn't make much sense to change him into a villain at this point.

Second, the "Meta Knight" in the trailer is positioned where you can't see his left eye. Dark Meta Knight has a notable cut on his left eye, so it would make sense for the devs to cover it up as not to spoil his reveal. Now before you point out that his color palate looks just like Meta Knight, remember that in Amazing Mirror, Dark Meta Knight did exactly this when you fought him the first time, and did it again in his final encounter...until the real Meta Knight exposed him, which was when he reverted to his darker, more sinister color scheme. Now it's true that the in-game sprite doesn't have the scar, but it WAS in the official artwork of Dark Meta Knight for the Amazing Mirror, and is a defining feature of his in every other appearance. So in a way, Dark Meta Knight posing as the real Meta Knight in the trailer and faking us out would be very true to his character.

Finally, if this was, so to speak, the real Meta Knight, why would they choose HIM to be Kirby's rival in the trailer? It would make much more sense to have Dedede as the rival. While he's given up his role as the villain for some time now, he still butts heads with Kirby from time-to-time, challenging him to Gourmet Races, rigged tournaments, and even intense boxing matches where the gloves are traded in for hammers. It could be argued that Dedede isn't in the Rivals section because he's in the latter half of the trailer, but I don't see why he couldn't be in both times. There's also the argument that Dedede isn't enough of a rival to Kirby anymore, and that's true. however, he is the bigger one between him and Meta Knight, so if he couldn't fit, then why would choose Meta Knight? They wouldn't, unless Sakurai has something up his sleeve, which he usually does.

Well, that's my personal theory, anyway. I think the reason why Meta Knight is in the rivals trailer, despite not really being a rival to Kirby, is because it's actually Dark Meta Knight, who is an established villain in the Kirby lore, therefore fitting the whole rivals motif the trailer presented.

 

[Fane]

Of the bigger series represented in the game that isn't 3rd party the only ones left without Villainous Representation that can actually have that representation reasonably are:

Kid Icarus
Fire Emblem
Earthbound
F-Zero

Then you have ones that could plausibly see some villainous rep but haven't been around in Smash as long like Xenoblade, Punch-Out!!, and Splatoon.

IF they wanted to give villainous reps to these series I could easily see them going with:

Kid Icarus: Medusa/Hades, these two are the main antagonists of the series. Medusa has been a staple since the original I believe, and Hades is more recent. Medusa is most likely imo as she works very well as a Palutena echo, but if they wanted something a little unique, Hades would be the best choice.
Fire Emblem: This one is tough. There's a lot of villains in the series, and I believe the most iconic would be Grima... but... he's literally a leviathan-esque dragon. Then you have the villains like Iago, Validar, and Black Knight. IMO I would say Validar or Black Knight would be the best choices, but for the sake of some sort of variety, Black Knight is the overall best choice since we already have 3 Awakening characters.
Earthbound: Definitely either Porky or Masked Man. I'd want the latter, but the former is probably more likely.
F-Zero: Black Shadow or Blood Falcon. Both are pretty easy to make as Echoes imo.

Xenoblade: Haven't really finished any of them, but probably something from the original one or XC2.
Punch-Out!!: Could really be anyone Little Mac fights, but the most recognizable is likely King Hippo.
Splatoon: Octolings, obviously. Though they're also protagonists in the Octo Expansion. Then again look at Meta Knight and Dedede with Kirby.

We finally got villains for DK and Metroid which is great, so I'm hoping we see some more. Even if they're from series already with villain rep. *crosses fingers for Skull Kid*

 

[Deleted member]

I'm glad that there seems to be a more serious effort to put in villains with the likes of Ridley, Dark Samus, and King K. Rool. If Skull Kid is playable, then that's +1 for villains... assuming we go for his Majora's Mask incarnation (which I'm sure they would).

Aside from Skull Kid, the two villains I find the most likely are Black Shadow and Black Knight purely because they could be echoes for Captain Falcon and Ike respectively. If those two get in as echoes, I would be more than down for that.

 

[SupriceSupplies]

I see a lot of people a little confused as to why Meta Knight would be in the K. Rool trailer as a rival. I actually have a personal theory that the "Meta Knight" in the K. Rool trailer is actually Dark Meta Knight. This would actually make a lot of sense

First off, Meta Knight can't even be considered a rival to Kirby anymore. He's only fought Kirby in 6 canon games, and only ONE of them had Meta Knight try to kill Kirby out of his own choice (in Kirby's Adventure, his motives are very unclear as to what he's trying to do, and in Squeak Squad, he was trying to stop Kirby from unintentionally releasing a demon). There's also the fact that Meta Knight is an established hero in the Kirby lore since Amazing Mirror, and he was a hero in the Subspace Emissary, so it wouldn't make much sense to change him into a villain at this point.

Second, the "Meta Knight" in the trailer is positioned where you can't see his left eye. Dark Meta Knight has a notable cut on his left eye, so it would make sense for the devs to cover it up as not to spoil his reveal. Now before you point out that his color palate looks just like Meta Knight, remember that in Amazing Mirror, Dark Meta Knight did exactly this when you fought him the first time, and did it again in his final encounter...until the real Meta Knight exposed him, which was when he reverted to his darker, more sinister color scheme. Now it's true that the in-game sprite doesn't have the scar, but it WAS in the official artwork of Dark Meta Knight for the Amazing Mirror, and is a defining feature of his in every other appearance. So in a way, Dark Meta Knight posing as the real Meta Knight in the trailer and faking us out would be very true to his character.

Finally, if this was, so to speak, the real Meta Knight, why would they choose HIM to be Kirby's rival in the trailer? It would make much more sense to have Dedede as the rival. While he's given up his role as the villain for some time now, he still butts heads with Kirby from time-to-time, challenging him to Gourmet Races, rigged tournaments, and even intense boxing matches where the gloves are traded in for hammers. It could be argued that Dedede isn't in the Rivals section because he's in the latter half of the trailer, but I don't see why he couldn't be in both times. There's also the argument that Dedede isn't enough of a rival to Kirby anymore, and that's true. however, he is the bigger one between him and Meta Knight, so if he couldn't fit, then why would choose Meta Knight? They wouldn't, unless Sakurai has something up his sleeve, which he usually does.

Well, that's my personal theory, anyway. I think the reason why Meta Knight is in the rivals trailer, despite not really being a rival to Kirby, is because it's actually Dark Meta Knight, who is an established villain in the Kirby lore, therefore fitting the whole rivals motif the trailer presented.

While I personally don't believe in the villains trend over the high request trend myself, I guess I could throw my hat into the mix now that Dark Meta Knight's been brought up.
To put it simply, if we get an echo fighter for the Kirby Series, it's going to be Dark Meta Knight, beyond the shadow of a doubt, and I guess I could give some pointers as to why I think that:

-Neither Kirby nor Dedede have echoes that fit or have plausible chances. Bandana Dee, (who I've seen people argue he could be an echo of both Kirby and Meta Knight), is completely unfamiliar with the weapons the other main characters use and we know that Sakurai likes to keep movesets as true to character as he possibly can. (Creative liberties, sure, but he won't base an entire moveset for a character on something they aren't familiar with.) Gooey doesn't have a similar build to Kirby, so that can't work, and Mirror Kirby is a very minor character overall. And for Dedede, none have a really notable appearance. (Looking at Shadow Dedede and King D. Mind in particular, who are still rather obscure characters.)

So that just leaves Meta Knight, and he has 3 options: Galacta Knight, Morpho Knight, and Dark Meta Knight.
-Galacta Knight's chances are virtually nill at this point. As Meta's already got a costume resembling him. (Not to mention his lance and shield.)
-Morpho Knight, whose design has admittedly existed for decades, has only existed for less than half a year, which diminishes his chances immensely. On top of that, we don't know for sure what HAL's got in store for him, while Galacta atleast has consistently appeared throughout multiple games. (Or maybe not? I'd explain but spoilers.)

So Dark Meta Knight remains, let's value the pros and cons.

Pros:
-Has been relevant a while before the Project plan's completion, with Triple Deluxe in 2014. Of course, it's a two year gap, but still, Shulk got in. Despite his game being 2 years old (though he is kind of the poster boy for the series at this point sooo yeah.)
-Is a very easy Meta Knight echo, despite having unique potential if Star Allies is anything to go by. *Looks at Dark Samus and Dark Pit*

Pro?/Con?
-We actually DID see (Dark?) Meta Knight's left eye during the intro to K. Rool's trailer, albeit slightly, and there was no crack to speak of. So why am I listing this as a neutral point? The arena and scenery Kirby and D?MK are facing off in do look slightly similar to the Boss area of Level 8 in Amazing Mirror, where the two actually did fight. (with DMK assuming MK's appearance, do note that DMK was able to fool Kirby despite having a crack in his helmet in his actual appearance.)

Spoiler: Comparison images

I suppose we ought to note the grass, which is absent in the first picture. So it may not be the same arena after all, or maybe it is? Who knows?

Cons:
-He had little to no ballot support. And when a very good portion of new characters have been ballot requests/high requests in general, it diminishes his chances by a good amount. (Yes, Simon and Richter got in, but I imagine Simon having quite a bit of support once Snake was revealed for Brawl as they're owned by the same company, and considering Richter and Simon take moves from eachother, I can imagine them deciding on Richter for the hell of it.)
-His future and importance in the series is debatable. He was brought in for Star Allies, sure, but so have and will other notable characters for each main series games. The inevitable Magolor, Suzie, Jambastion Mages, and Taranza fall into this same boat, with Magolor arguably having the biggest chances of ever reappearing if Dream Collection and Team Clash Deluxe are any indication (I believe Taranza and Susie appeared in some from in TKCD, too but I could write multiple paragraphs about that alone.), and Magolor would be a unique fighter. (He was also popular around the time of the ballot in Japan.) Though DMK does end up being relevant to Triple Deluxe's overall plot despite only appearing in the Dededetour, but who knows how often the Mirror World will be brought up from here on out?

Despite him being the most likely candidate after Bandana Dee in my book when it comes to the Kirby series, I'm just not inclined to believe he'll get in just yet simply because of the Ballot and his admittedly very few roles. That being said, I could still see it happen regardless, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did get in nonetheless.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Porky
Masked Man
Marx
Magolor
Sectonia (Maybe)
Octoling
Black Shadow (Maybe)

 

[Farbeitfromme]

While I certainly acknowledge that the villains/rivals thing may not be something intentional by the developers, I'm really glad to see it happening so far. I love having the foils to different Smash fighters present, largely because you can easily role-play matches that pit the heroes and villains against each other. I can see this being used in the new style of classic mode where each character fights certain foes, and that will make Ultimate all the more fun for me. Plus, if they do decide to do a story mode, the roster of villains will be an amazing resource to pull from.

As such, despite the plethora of antagonists we now have, I'd still like to see a few more.

Of the bigger series represented in the game that isn't 3rd party the only ones left without Villainous Representation that can actually have that representation reasonably are:

Kid Icarus
Fire Emblem
Earthbound
F-Zero

Then you have ones that could plausibly see some villainous rep but haven't been around in Smash as long like Xenoblade, Punch-Out!!, and Splatoon.

Great list! I'd love to see those first four IPs get villains, even if it isn't particularly likely.

For Kid Icarus, I tend to be in the Medusa camp, although Hades would work too. Honestly, I'd rather have Hades be a boss fight though. Since it might be unlikely that KI gets another unique rep, Medusa might have the best chance, as she could be a relatively easy Palutena echo. Also, she is a representative of not one but two games and a female villain to boot. As for Viridi, I can't picture her as filling the villain/antagonist quota, personally. She just isn't intimidating enough to make an iconic rival for Palutena or Pit.

I agree Fire Emblem is not so straight forward. Black Knight would be cool, and for me he has the advantage of appearing in my favorite Fire Emblem title. Hopefully, if he is brought in as an echo, they'll put some effort into making players feel his weight. Beyond him I don't have very many ideas for playable villains. I don't think anyone else from Awakening would work, and I have yet to play Fates, the Shadows of Valentia remake, or the spinoff titles. There could be viable options there, but they would certainly still have the problem of being just one drop in a large bucket of antagonists.

I have had a few FE ideas buzzing around my head when it comes to boss fights, though. One idea might be to have a generic Wyvern Rider. It would be an interesting way to showcase that part of the series, certainly. They could make it someone specific if they wanted, but I personally would rather just have it be like one of the faceless enemies. That way it's not tied to any one game. My other idea is Medeus from the original FE. It would be interesting to fight a Manakete, and it would give the forefather of the FE series, Marth, an antagonist tailor-made for him. Now it's true that for both of these we now have Rathalos as competition as a "dragon" boss, but I'd imagine it'd be less of an issue with Medeus, as he an Earth Dragon.

Mother/Earthbound, despite having ended as a series, should definitely at least get a bad guy boss like it did in Brawl. Porky is a no-brainer, as there is no better way to tie together Ness and Lucas. I certainly wouldn't object to seeing him playable either, although he might be hard to implement. Beyond him however, we have Masked Man, who is one of my favorite ideas due to his moveset viability, and Giegue, who I never really considered, but is certainly worth a mention. I'd probably be a little more open to Giegue if we get a Ninten echo fighter, but being an echo from another series, while certainly not impossible, seems a little unlikely. Personally, I'd opt for a Porky boss and a playable Masked Man if I had my choice.

F-Zero I've not played, but I know Black Shadow is a popular choice. We also have Blood Falcon, but he's probably best as an alt costume for Captain Falcon. Getting another F-Zero rep wouldn't do much for me, but I wouldn't be opposed to a Black Shadow echo.

The last three IPs you mentioned probably won't get a full fledged villain (unless the Octolings, who people seem to support, are antagonists. I wouldn't know since I've never played Splatoon), but out of the three I'd love to see Punch Out get another playable character. I'm going to go against the grain here, though, and say NOT King Hippo. Yes, he's iconic and goofy, but to me he doesn't capture the essence of what makes the series great. If we're going for antagonist, I'd argue we should go all the way and include Mr. Sandman. He's big, intimidating, and would work great as a final challenge for Little Mac. If he were playable, I'd ideally like to see him unique, but I know that's not likely. Being an echo of Mac may not be viable either, as the size difference is huge. So admittedly, it's not likely, but I thought I'd mention him since I like the idea.

That's everything from off the top of my head for now. Hopefully we'll see a few more villains get their time to shine come Ultimate's release!

 

[Graizen]

From the Digimon series...

Devimon would be the perfect choice for a Boss!

 

[Arcadenik]

Ugh. I wish Team Rocket got in Smash.

Team Rocket would have been perfect as Adventures Mode villains. Jessie, James, and Meowth stealing trophies. Meowth, Arbok, and Weezing teaming up together to battle other fighters.

 

[John Dylan Smith]

Well I guess I'm the only one here who want's to see Dr. Wily himself make into Smash Bros Ultimate in terms of another Mega-Man character (He could work as a Bowser Jr. Echo riding in his Wily Capsule plane thing)! One YouTube pooper, Chincherrinas, and his Smash Bros Lawl move-set for both Wily and Dr. Robotnik proved that something like could be made to work in a Smash game!

As this would give us more antagonist for Smash and a third party echo who isn't just a clone of the main character (If you know what I mean)!

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

Pretty cool design, I’d support.

Or getting a Malos Echo Fighter(Since Both Shulk & Malos use Monado Arts)

 

[UserKev]

Giegue or Porky would literally complete the villains theme Smash Ultimate is seemly looking to. I consider Mewtwo and Dedede villains in Smash, Wario to an extend. They feel more like villains. Its defaulted with them. I mean, Dedede is pretty much a villain in Kirby Right Back At Cha and Mewtwo has menacing power. Why wouldn't you consider them villains in a non canonical environment?

Anymore villains seem unnecessary and would ruin the charm. You have Bowser, Ganondorf, Wolf, Bowser Jr. and now Ridley, K. Rool and Dark Samus with possibly Skull Kid/Majora. I want the villains to be a small bunch, defining and secretive while at the same time, powerful enough to stand against the protagonists when grouped.

 

[Ninten DS]

Giegue or Porky would literally complete the villains theme Smash Ultimate is seemly looking to. I consider Mewtwo and Dedede villains in Smash, Wario to an extend. They feel more like villains. Its defaulted with them. I mean, Dedede is pretty much a villain in Kirby Right Back At Cha and Mewtwo has menacing power. Why wouldn't you consider them villains in a non canonical environment?

Anymore villains seem unnecessary and would ruin the charm. You have Bowser, Ganondorf, Wolf, Bowser Jr. and now Ridley, K. Rool and Dark Samus with possibly Skull Kid/Majora. I want the villains to be a small bunch, defining and secretive while at the same time, powerful enough to stand against the protagonists when grouped.

Wario can actually be considered the villain of his own games if you really stop and think about it: he's represented via the WarioWare series mainly, and in those games he literally fooled every of his friends to believe he'd pay them, but never did, until they got him, also in WarioWare Gold Wario Deluxe is basically Wario but even more evil, although his goals are a bit more extreme in that state.

I'm no Kirby enthusiast, but I've played a couple of his games, and I consider both Meta Knight and Dedede to be villains, but most likely Dedede, since Meta Knight has good goals, which of course is better than wanting to steal food. I think the Kirby series could go with an actual villain, like Marx (which has been talked about lately) or Dark Meta Knight, although I think this won't happen due to the King K. Rool showing Meta Knight as the villain, and I still don't understand why him tho.

I'm expecting for the recognized Nintendo series to get a villain addition, excluding those who already have, and by that I mean of course Earthbound, Porky most likely or Masked Man, and F-Zero, with Black Shadow as an echo just for the sake of expanding the series' representation in Smash. Idk if Fire Emblem has villains in Smash already I know NOTHING about Fire Emblem, and if there's none, I can expect to see just a villain thrown in there.

I'm actually curious about the idea of having Giegue as a playable fighter, I haven't played Earthbound Beginnings yet, so I don't really know his attacks, although I know his story, but I rather see Porky get in due to his impact in the series, he literally links Ness' and Lucas' stories.

 

[UserKev]

Wario can actually be considered the villain of his own games if you really stop and think about it: he's represented via the WarioWare series mainly, and in those games he literally fooled every of his friends to believe he'd pay them, but never did, until they got him, also in WarioWare Gold Wario Deluxe is basically Wario but even more evil, although his goals are a bit more extreme in that state.

I'm no Kirby enthusiast, but I've played a couple of his games, and I consider both Meta Knight and Dedede to be villains, but most likely Dedede, since Meta Knight has good goals, which of course is better than wanting to steal food. I think the Kirby series could go with an actual villain, like Marx (which has been talked about lately) or Dark Meta Knight, although I think this won't happen due to the King K. Rool showing Meta Knight as the villain, and I still don't understand why him tho.

I'm expecting for the recognized Nintendo series to get a villain addition, excluding those who already have, and by that I mean of course Earthbound, Porky most likely or Masked Man, and F-Zero, with Black Shadow as an echo just for the sake of expanding the series' representation in Smash. Idk if Fire Emblem has villains in Smash already I know NOTHING about Fire Emblem, and if there's none, I can expect to see just a villain thrown in there.

I'm actually curious about the idea of having Giegue as a playable fighter, I haven't played Earthbound Beginnings yet, so I don't really know his attacks, although I know his story, but I rather see Porky get in due to his impact in the series, he literally links Ness' and Lucas' stories.

I don't like the idea of Marx, honestly. He's random, feel unnecessary and Dedede already perfectly represents the villain aspect of Kirby. I prefer Giegue over Porky even tho Porky is way more likely. The Masked Man, I don't feel is incorporated properly in 3D, as sick he would be.

 

[Multi-bottle Thief]

While I personally don't believe in the villains trend over the high request trend myself, I guess I could throw my hat into the mix now that Dark Meta Knight's been brought up.
To put it simply, if we get an echo fighter for the Kirby Series, it's going to be Dark Meta Knight, beyond the shadow of a doubt, and I guess I could give some pointers as to why I think that:

-Neither Kirby nor Dedede have echoes that fit or have plausible chances. Bandana Dee, (who I've seen people argue he could be an echo of both Kirby and Meta Knight), is completely unfamiliar with the weapons the other main characters use and we know that Sakurai likes to keep movesets as true to character as he possibly can. (Creative liberties, sure, but he won't base an entire moveset for a character on something they aren't familiar with.) Gooey doesn't have a similar build to Kirby, so that can't work, and Mirror Kirby is a very minor character overall. And for Dedede, none have a really notable appearance. (Looking at Shadow Dedede and King D. Mind in particular, who are still rather obscure characters.)

So that just leaves Meta Knight, and he has 3 options: Galacta Knight, Morpho Knight, and Dark Meta Knight.
-Galacta Knight's chances are virtually nill at this point. As Meta's already got a costume resembling him. (Not to mention his lance and shield.)
-Morpho Knight, whose design has admittedly existed for decades, has only existed for less than half a year, which diminishes his chances immensely. On top of that, we don't know for sure what HAL's got in store for him, while Galacta atleast has consistently appeared throughout multiple games. (Or maybe not? I'd explain but spoilers.)

So Dark Meta Knight remains, let's value the pros and cons.

Pros:
-Has been relevant a while before the Project plan's completion, with Triple Deluxe in 2014. Of course, it's a two year gap, but still, Shulk got in. Despite his game being 2 years old (though he is kind of the poster boy for the series at this point sooo yeah.)
-Is a very easy Meta Knight echo, despite having unique potential if Star Allies is anything to go by. *Looks at Dark Samus and Dark Pit*

Pro?/Con?
-We actually DID see (Dark?) Meta Knight's left eye during the intro to K. Rool's trailer, albeit slightly, and there was no crack to speak of. So why am I listing this as a neutral point? The arena and scenery Kirby and D?MK are facing off in do look slightly similar to the Boss area of Level 8 in Amazing Mirror, where the two actually did fight. (with DMK assuming MK's appearance, do note that DMK was able to fool Kirby despite having a crack in his helmet in his actual appearance.)

Spoiler: Comparison images

View attachment 159687
View attachment 159688
I suppose we ought to note the grass, which is absent in the first picture. So it may not be the same arena after all, or maybe it is? Who knows?

Cons:
-He had little to no ballot support. And when a very good portion of new characters have been ballot requests/high requests in general, it diminishes his chances by a good amount. (Yes, Simon and Richter got in, but I imagine Simon having quite a bit of support once Snake was revealed for Brawl as they're owned by the same company, and considering Richter and Simon take moves from eachother, I can imagine them deciding on Richter for the hell of it.)
-His future and importance in the series is debatable. He was brought in for Star Allies, sure, but so have and will other notable characters for each main series games. The inevitable Magolor, Suzie, Jambastion Mages, and Taranza fall into this same boat, with Magolor arguably having the biggest chances of ever reappearing if Dream Collection and Team Clash Deluxe are any indication (I believe Taranza and Susie appeared in some from in TKCD, too but I could write multiple paragraphs about that alone.), and Magolor would be a unique fighter. (He was also popular around the time of the ballot in Japan.) Though DMK does end up being relevant to Triple Deluxe's overall plot despite only appearing in the Dededetour, but who knows how often the Mirror World will be brought up from here on out?

Despite him being the most likely candidate after Bandana Dee in my book when it comes to the Kirby series, I'm just not inclined to believe he'll get in just yet simply because of the Ballot and his admittedly very few roles. That being said, I could still see it happen regardless, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did get in nonetheless.

You do bring up some fair points (I'll admit I did think that the blocked out eye was less visible than it really was...), though I still think he has a high chance of getting in. He would boost up the Kirby reps, has the exact build as Meta Knight, and we already have two "dark" versions of characters for echos, so why not one more?

 

[Ninten DS]

I don't like the idea of Marx, honestly. He's random, feel unnecessary and Dedede already perfectly represents the villain aspect of Kirby. I prefer Giegue over Porky even tho Porky is way more likely. The Masked Man, I don't feel is incorporated properly in 3D, as sick he would be.

I'd love to see how Giegue could work, perhaps he could be a Earthbound Beginnings rep if Ninten didn't get in. I also think Marx is random, people simply talks about him for no reason at all, and I feel like with the characters we have from the Kirby series we only need Bandana Dee.

 

[StormC]

Marx is a flavor of the month character that was never talked about until Star Allies. He’ll be quickly forgotten by the time the marketing for the next Smash starts up.

 

[Multi-bottle Thief]

Marx is a flavor of the month character that was never talked about until Star Allies. He’ll be quickly forgotten by the time the marketing for the next Smash starts up.

Don't underestimate how popular he is in the Kirby fandom (he's up there with other one-off characters like Adeline and Magolor). However, I also don't see him getting into Smash any time soon, especially before Bandana Dee

 

[GoodGrief741]

If one-off Zelda characters can’t get in Smash, one-off Kirby characters have no chance.

 

[Fell God]

I'd still sorta consider Mewtwo a villain, since he still seems to be based on his first movie appearance (still sounds pretty villainous when he vocalizes) but I can see why he's not often considered one. Then again, he's still more of a villain then Greninja, even if a certain online mode would disagree...

 

[Mastermiine]

I would love to see a Sonic Stage with a Collection of various different bosses.

 

[Barbasol]

I'd still sorta consider Mewtwo a villain, since he still seems to be based on his first movie appearance (still sounds pretty villainous when he vocalizes) but I can see why he's not often considered one. Then again, he's still more of a villain then Greninja, even if a certain online mode would disagree...

I agree - and I'd expect him to take on a villainous role in a story-setting. It's too bad we never got him in the Subspace Emissary! That would have been an awesome team up with Bowser and Ganondorf.

 

[DeadlyLampshade]

I'm 100% certain we'll see the Black Knight as playable in Smash, we don't have a Fire Emblem Villain yet

 

[Fell God]

I'm 100% certain we'll see the Black Knight as playable in Smash, we don't have a Fire Emblem Villain yet

If not playable, it's possible he'd be a single player boss too, though that would be a bit of a letdown.

 

[Captain Shades]

I'd still sorta consider Mewtwo a villain, since he still seems to be based on his first movie appearance (still sounds pretty villainous when he vocalizes) but I can see why he's not often considered one. Then again, he's still more of a villain then Greninja, even if a certain online mode would disagree...

He’s not a villain though, the same Mewtwo from the first movie already made amends with Ash in the sequel and they even teamed up as Mewtwo saw that trainers can be trusted due to Ash’s dedication to Pikachu. The Pokémon Company has also stated that no Pokémon, with the exception of the Meowth on Team Rocket, is evil, so I feel it’s a disservice to Mewtwo to still call him a villain. Also the deep voice doesn’t mean anything, Mewtwo is just the Batman of Pokémon I guess.

Marx is a flavor of the month character that was never talked about until Star Allies. He’ll be quickly forgotten by the time the marketing for the next Smash starts up.

He isn’t, as the Kirby fandom has loved him for a long time, but he is a spur of the moment rep for Smash. The only reason people want him is due to Star Allies, otherwise Bandana Waddle Dee would be the only heavily requested character.

Giegue or Porky would literally complete the villains theme Smash Ultimate is seemly looking to. I consider Mewtwo and Dedede villains in Smash, Wario to an extend. They feel more like villains. Its defaulted with them. I mean, Dedede is pretty much a villain in Kirby Right Back At Cha and Mewtwo has menacing power. Why wouldn't you consider them villains in a non canonical environment?

Anymore villains seem unnecessary and would ruin the charm. You have Bowser, Ganondorf, Wolf, Bowser Jr. and now Ridley, K. Rool and Dark Samus with possibly Skull Kid/Majora. I want the villains to be a small bunch, defining and secretive while at the same time, powerful enough to stand against the protagonists when grouped.

I have to disagree. Dedede isn’t a villain anymore, ever since the new Kirby era brought on by Returns, Dedede has been considered to be more of an ally to Kirby than an enemy. Dedede was also a hero in Subspace, so even going by the Smash logic he wouldn’t be a villain.

I also have to disagree with the idea that more villains outside of Porky or Giegue would ruin the charm. I feel that every big franchise that has a villain should receive at least one, so we can have all the classic and modern villains together.

Mario: Bowser, Bowser Jr.
Zelda: Ganondorf, Skull Kid
Metroid: Ridley, Dark Samus (Echo)
Donkey Kong: King K. Rool
Star Fox: Wolf
Kirby: Dark Meta Knight/ Galacta Knight/ Morpho Knight (Meta Knight Echo)
Fire Emblem: The Black Knight (Ike Echo)
F-Zero: Black Shadow (Captain Falcon Echo/ Ganondorf’s Old Moveset)
Splatoon: Octoling (Inkling Echo)
Kid Icarus: Medusa (Palutena Echo)/ Hades
Mother/EarthBound: Porky/ Giegue (Mewtwo Echo)/ The Masked Man (Lucas Echo)
Xenoblade: Malos/Zanza (Shulk Echo)

Maybe you’ll disagree, but I feel that this would be the perfect roundup of villains for Ultimate, as all the big franchises have at least one antagonist to go against, excluding Pokémon because the only evil force is relegated to a Pokéball, R.I.P. Meowth. It also opens up the villains section to every era of Nintendo; with classic NES villains like Bowser, SNES villains like Porky, N64 villains like Skull Kid, Gameboy Advanced villains like Dark Meta Knight, GameCube villains like Black Knight, DS villains like Galacta Knight, Wii villains like Zanza, 3DS villains like Hades, Wii U villains like Octolings, or even Switch villains with Malos or Morpho Knight. I understand the small group mentality, but even with all these choices, having 1 from each franchise besides Metroid, Zelda, and Mario the villains would still be largely outnumbered, but at least they stand more of a chance as every franchise would have the main antagonist to stop them.

 

[[Equinox]]

Anyone else seeing Gary Oak as an echo for Pokemon trainer to be a Villain

 

[MrPowerfulJeans]

Anyone else seeing Gary Oak as an echo for Pokemon trainer to be a Villain

I'd rather him be called Blue and I also low key want Pokemon Trainer renamed as Red/Leaf, but I am 100% with this idea! Maybe not as an echo, but it could work. I was thinking that he could use his own Pokemon Team, like maybe he has Growlithe, Machoke, and Alakazam, instead of just different evolved states of the Kanto Starters. But, either works, really.

He's definitely not the evilest character in even the original Red & Blue Games (I think Giovanni might beat him there), but technically, he's antagonistic, which is villainous... I mean, Wario is a villain, so why not Blue? I feel he fits the same archetype. Besides, he's the most iconic rival in the Pokemon series and becomes the Champion! I think he fits well in Heroes vs Villains.

 

[Farbeitfromme]

Anyone else seeing Gary Oak as an echo for Pokemon trainer to be a Villain

Well, it'd be interesting to get another Pokemon trainer character, but would he have the same Pokemon? If so, it would be pretty redundant (echo x3) and if not, he probably wouldn't be an echo, unless they shoehorned other Pokemon to have Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard's movesets, which would be a little too much.

I personally wouldn't object to another trainer, but Gary (or Blue, as they would probably call him in game) would likely create three more gen 1 Pokemon, which I know some people would object to. MrPowerfulJeans' suggestions of Growlithe, Machoke, and Alakazam would be interesting, though. I had thoughts of Giovanni at one point as well, but he would be in the same gen 1 boat as Blue. Perhaps there is another iconic rival from later in the Pokemon series? Maybe even an arch-villain character, preferably the most popular? Cyrus might be interesting, with Weavile, Houndoom, and Honchkrow, and maybe Dialga/Palkia as a final smash.

As for Mewtwo, I agree that calling him a villain at this point is too much, but I think the term rival still fits. Honestly, I consider antagonist characters that have since changed sides and joined the heroes as still fitting the "rival" role in a technical sense. I had no problem with Meta Knight in the K. Rool trailer image, nor would I have had a problem if they used Dedede or Mewtwo.

 

[TerminatorLOL]

Smash's stance on villains is a little weird when it comes to character who either stopped being villains or have grey morality.

Melee does seem to treat Mewtwo as villain since they teamed him up with Giga Bowser and Ganondorf in The Showdown event match. Not to mention his sinister voice, complete with evil laugh.

Brawl had Wario as one of the major villains in SSE, but Meta Knight and King Dedede are good from the start. Despit this Dedede replaced Mewtwo in the event match The Final Battle, teaming up with Bowser and Ganon.

Smash 4 still has The Final Battle event match, and Mewtwo's voice is still sinister.

Now with K. Rool's reveal we see Meta Knight and Wolf standing in contrast of their series heroes.