"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[TP]

@Whomever decides to finish the chart: We also did the Toon Link match-up I believe (on their boards), which was 70-30 in Tl's favor. Lucario's and Olimar's ratio is also up there. Drop the Wario match-up to 35:65. Switch Falco's ratio with Samus. I have no clue of weather we did Sonic or not. Yeah, we've pretty much filled out the chart.

The Toon Link matchup was 65:35 from start to finish. I took part in it. I see no reason to drop the Wario number. If we want to rediscuss old matchups once we finish everyone, we can start with him if you want, but for now it should not change. Falco is no worse than 85:15, period. I beat a falco player on FD who camped with lasers, used cg-spike, and all those other tricks. And now PT is 60:40, since I trust Kosk's opinion more than my own.

 

[Ishiey]

I haven't played far too many Ganons, but your best bet is probably to get a murder choke off and then dtilt/predict and fsmash most of the match. Besides that, try to gimp wolf by interrupting his sideB, you'll need every gimp you can get. Wolf's bair will be borderline impossible to punish, laser will be a hassle, and he can punish every mistake you make. Not a great matchup for Ganon, basically.

 

[Dv8tor]

Wolf has to be one of the hardest match ups for Ganon as he is a huge target for basically anything Wolf can do. His reflector will catch almost any attack as Ganon is too slow and the Wolf bairs hit him straight off the ground without even fast falling. The guy is just too big and slow to try and match Wolf, but it depends on the skill of the players.

 

[fromundaman]

Quick question... How many 'worst matchups' does Ganon have? I feel like I keep seeing this phrase pop up.


A quick note about the matchup: Ganon is big enough to be sweet-spotted side-Bed while standing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Powershielding is really important against Wolf. You gotta powershield his blaster consistently obviously. A Wolf that knows how to space aerials is really hard to hit if you don't powershield either. You can punish him out of shield for whiffing Smashes decently (nothing feels better than getting the ol Sparta Kick on his F-smash), and your U-air generally stops him from recovering, but Wolf is HARD if he knows how to space in the air.

 

[tekkie]

A quick note about the matchup: Ganon is big enough to be sweet-spotted side-Bed while standing.

Seriously? Wow.

 

[:034:]

Wolf isn't that bad, probably 70-30 in Wolf's favor.

I'm really bad at match-up discussions, so I'll just leave this: You can thunderstorm him when Wolf fsmashes... You literally jump over the hitbox and stomp him in his furry face. <:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf isn't that bad, probably 70-30 in Wolf's favor.

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Winning a 3/7 match-up is extremely unrealistic. If it's a 7/3 match-up in Wolf's favour it is that bad (even though Falco is probably a lot harder) for Ganon.

...

Ganon is stupid. He kills you at 100% and lives to about 150% himself. He also deals more damage per hit than Wolf does (wtf @ 23% from a dair o_0). Obviously, Wolf is a lot faster than Ganon and has a solid range advantage but Wolf still has to be patient to win.
Something I find hilarious to do as Ganon is to bait fsmashes with usmash. Every Wolf will fall for it and tries to punish Ganon's upsmash with an fsmash. Bad idea. Punishing fsmash with a thunder stomp must be pretty fun, right dutchman? So yeah, Ganon will **** stupid Wolves, who don't know the match-up or take it too easy. However, Wolf still has the advantage, obviously as he is faster and his moves are a lot safer.
I hate match-up numbers so I won't post any
Koskinator probably knows a lot about this match-up since he plays both characters.

 

[:034:]

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Winning a 3/7 match-up is extremely unrealistic. If it's a 7/3 match-up in Wolf's favour it is that bad (even though Falco is probably a lot harder) for Ganon.

We're Ganon mains, a 70-30 match-up is a piece of cake. We're just that manly.

Punishing fsmash with a thunder stomp must be pretty fun, right dutchman?

You know it, lol. Especially since every Wolf main knows that fsmash is strictly a punishing move, getting stomped in the face when attempting to is a pretty embarrassing.

Interrupting moves with a thunderstorm is pretty embarrassing anyway though.

 

[Koskinator]

Wolf is going to deal alot of damage really fast. Upsmash does 18% uncharged. He wont be able to get a kill till around 120% with good conditions. Spaced bairs are going to be a major ***** to get around. Ganon can kill him at around 80ish. But the main way we are gonna get kills is going to be gimps. Go for a sparta kick around 50% near the ledge then get in there with tipmans. I know I said I was gonna give a big 'ol writeup, but I'm too lazy. Basically try to get him offstage and go for gimps. 65:35 for Wolf.

 

[Seagull Joe]

like 70-30 wolf's favor.projectile spam keeps ganon away.side b doesnt lead into many things on wolf.bair's wreck ganons recovery and wolf is heavy.

 

[Anomilus]

Wolf's blaster has a low firing rate and mediocre projectile distance. There's plenty of space for Ganon to powershield and approach. Not that's it's good for Ganon to approach, but just saying that Wolf's blaster won't exactly keep Ganon away for long.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wolf doesn't win because of projectile camping. His projectile hardly makes any difference at all when it is one of the easier ones to simply powershield on reaction.

He wins just because he's hard as hell to hit if he knows how to space. Not to mention general things like Ganon being easily punishable on block on many of his attacks making him open to KO moves.

Second, Wolf's B-air doesn't "wreck" Ganon's recovery by any means. Wolf has trouble edgeguarding easily against an opponent who DIs well due to his limited time offstage, so if Ganondorf air dodges or throws out N-airs intelligently, he's going to avoid 95% of Wolf's edgeguarding right of the bat. The only real way Wolf can gimp Ganon "easily" besides the usual edgehog against a Ganon who didn't DI right is by somehow timing his D-air perfectly as Ganon does a recovery move.

Although Wolf is heavy, a fresh F-smash will still kill him at 80% easily, like it does to everyone else, and a F-tilt at that percent leads to a U-air gimp (even if someone DIs it perfectly, it is still not easy to make it back when hit by a F-tilt at moderate percents).

Ganon has the edge offstage in this matchup, but Wolf has the significant advantage ON stage in terms of raw spacing advantages.

 

[@HomE]

Wolf doesn't win because of projectile camping. His projectile hardly makes any difference at all when it is one of the easier ones to simply powershield on reaction.

He wins just because he's hard to hit if he knows how to space.

Second, Wolf's B-air doesn't "wreck" Ganon's recovery by any means. Wolf has trouble edgeguarding easily against an opponent who DIs well due to his limited time offstage, so if Ganondorf air dodges or throws out N-airs intelligently, he's going to avoid 95% of Wolf's edgeguarding right of the bat.

Although Wolf is heavy, a fresh F-smash will still kill him at 80% easily, like it does to everyone else, and a F-tilt at that percent leads to a U-air gimp.

Ganon has a slight edge offstage in this matchup, but Wolf has the significant advantage ON stage.

I agree with all this.

 

[Steeler]

hey ganondorfs, i'm just curious. you have a few matchups in the 90-10/95-5 range...is it really possible to win these matchups at the highest levels of skill? is there really any difference between that and 100-0? just curious.

i don't mean to come off as a douchebag, i just had a debate about whether there are any impossible matchups in brawl, and it seems like ganondorf definitely has some of the hardest. so i wanted to see what you all thought.

 

[Squirrely]

If we're playing someone with know-how, than yes, it's basically impossible to win. We won't get to hit them is pretty much the bottom line. I think the 5% in our favor is just to make us feel better about it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The ICs I think of as 100-0 because I can literally imagine them 0 - death KOing Ganon three times without taking a hit. I will assume anyone who knows how to use the ICs automatically knows how to do their grab infinites, because why else would you want to use them LOL?

Whereas someone like Sheik or Falco, they'll get hit sometimes for not spacing something optimally, but they don't exactly 0-death as easily. If you're going against someone using these characters who is unfamiliar with the matchup, you could pull off an upset...maybe. One trick you can do is just sit on a platform and avoid them until they tack on some percent on you so that you eliminate some of their combo potential. But otherwise you're pretty screwed against someone who knows what they are doing with these chars...

 

[PK-ow!]

Ya Sheik is basically 100-0.

Ice Climbers is still 95-5 (more like 99-1 ) I think, because even at the highest levels of play, the dual climbers can be unpredictable - Up-B glitches, tripping, Nana being ********, etc.

Other matches aren't quite so bad (but still ****). Kind of funny how Samus is the next most dangerous character. She's so terribad against.... everyone, but ***** those who can't handle zair. Which is basically us, though.
.... doesn't the pic in the OP need to get updated? And it doesn't agree with the rest of the post (20-80 vs 15-85 for Marth, for example)

Back to Wolf, we may be underestimating-stating this. If the Wolf player has a pimp bair it's going to be a *lot* of trouble, and his weight + power means there isn't that big a disparity in early kills (compared to others, anyway). So we may be understating the numbers, even from what we've agreed with how the match goes.

 

[Squirrely]

So you're saying it's worse than 30:70, pk?

I'm aware of the awesome properties of wolf's b-air but it actually isn't so bad when matched up against our u-airs or occasionally f-airs. Other characters aerials only become problematic for us if they're disjointed or can juggle us and I don't think wolf falls into those categories.

I think he only has a clear advantage on the ground though he can hop his blaster to frustrate some air approaches as well.

I don't think it's any harder than 30:70. I think the key lies in slowly advancing across the ground and meeting him in the air if he goes airborne.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

hey ganondorfs, i'm just curious. you have a few matchups in the 90-10/95-5 range...is it really possible to win these matchups at the highest levels of skill? is there really any difference between that and 100-0? just curious.

i don't mean to come off as a douchebag, i just had a debate about whether there are any impossible matchups in brawl, and it seems like ganondorf definitely has some of the hardest. so i wanted to see what you all thought.

In summary to what A2zomg said, yes Ganon has a few impossible match-ups.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ya Sheik is basically 100-0.

Ice Climbers is still 95-5 (more like 99-1 ) I think, because even at the highest levels of play, the dual climbers can be unpredictable - Up-B glitches, tripping, Nana being ********, etc.

Ganon has only one "viable" attack on the Ice Climbers, and that is why they are his worst matchup.

You can only D-tilt them when they are together, and if you so much as misspace it slightly on their shield (keep in mind, you're APPROACHING with this attack while they are camping with Blizzard and Ice Blocks), you're going to get grabbed. And then you die. And this basically should happen three times in a row against a good IC player.

Sheik is Ganon's 2nd worst matchup IMO....Sheik unlike the ICs however isn't about her camping so much (which she can do, but not as well as the ICs) but the fact that Ganondorf is simply unable to punish a large percentage of her moveset (either because she will Jab before your attacks come out, or because she actually ducks under him with stuff like DA and D-smash), while she can juggle him to 80% with F-tilt U-smash/D-smash and gimp Ganondorf with F-airs. But seriously, at least it isn't always a stock when you get grabbed...so she has to work a lot harder...

Other matches aren't quite so bad (but still ****). Kind of funny how Samus is the next most dangerous character. She's so terribad against.... everyone, but ***** those who can't handle zair. Which is basically us, though.

Samus is only like 70/30 at worst. Ganon has more matchups to complain about besides Samus.

Actually, I have been thinking that Samus ultimately doesn't win this matchup any more than 6/4 in high level play since you can simply powershield her camping on reaction when you know how it works...Samus has the edge dealing damage and offstage still, but when it comes to KO moves she's at a pretty significant disadvantage.

Back to Wolf, we may be underestimating-stating this. If the Wolf player has a pimp bair it's going to be a *lot* of trouble, and his weight + power means there isn't that big a disparity in early kills (compared to others, anyway). So we may be understating the numbers, even from what we've agreed with how the match goes.

Weight discrepancies aren't an issue for Ganondorf like they are for most characters. Ganondorf suffers more from a limited movepool and stale moves. Even if you're really lightweight like Jigglypuff or Falco, it still can be very difficult for Ganon to score a KO move if he discovers he only has one or two options that can compete with good spacing from a more mobile character.

As long as you can land a fresh F-smash from like 70-80%, your opponent is gonna die regardless who they are...like seriously.

Wolf doesn't have any real way of scoring *extremely* early KOs moreover...his D-smash is good, but not really close to being the most powerful move out there.

 

[PK-ow!]

So you're saying it's worse than 30:70, pk?

I'm aware of the awesome properties of wolf's b-air but it actually isn't so bad when matched up against our u-airs or occasionally f-airs. Other characters aerials only become problematic for us if they're disjointed or can juggle us and I don't think wolf falls into those categories.

I think he only has a clear advantage on the ground though he can hop his blaster to frustrate some air approaches as well.

I don't think it's any harder than 30:70. I think the key lies in slowly advancing across the ground and meeting him in the air if he goes airborne.

Huh, didn't I post a reply to this? Yeah, I can okay all of this. It seems reasonable. I'm satisfied; I think the Wolf's agree it's 7-3? Move on now?

Dang, I could have avoided that broiling from Ay-too-zed. Yes, in my sick, Canadian mind I read your name as ay-too-zed. IN SPITE of the potential rhyming with OMG. It makes you twist with bile, doesn't it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

LOL. That's probably the most unique interpretation of my username yet.

If you meet me in real life though, you're supposed to say "Hey, it's A to Z OHMYGOD!"

 

[Squirrely]

So who's next for match-ups.

 

[_clinton]

You're too slow vs. you can't kill? Fun...

Sonic's side B has inv. frames for it at the start...and it can cancel to a shield at the start of it...but the sound of the move will still play...so there is an example of fun mind games...

The Spin shot pretty much removes all doubt that Sonic can't move fast in the air...Are you aware of what PK Jump is with Ness? Well that is sort of what a spin shot is (propels Sonic forward very fast and lets him throw out an air attack...so it isn't like Ness' where you just have to deal with a Bolt and then a follow up attack)

Sonic is mid weight not light...
He can reach one side of FD in about 50 frames IIRC
Sonic's mobility isn't that great though overall...he isn't Wario or JP...

 

[TP]

Against Sonic, Choke>Dtilt and Choke>iDA are guaranteed, as is Dair>Usmash at 0%. Keep your DA fresh so you can kill Sonic at 90% from a choke. Besides that, I don't have enough experience in the matchup to contribute.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Sonic has some "Chaingrabs" that rely on using many different ways of tricking people into the wrong response after Up, Down or Forward throw to get another grab. A Sonic competent with Grab traps can easily land 5+ Grabs in a row at low percents. Learn all of Sonic's options out of Grabs and learn them well. You really don't want to be fooled by this stuff.

Having a solid way to land a kill move is a lifesaver for Ganon in this matchup.

 

[Squirrely]

The first time I fought a sonic, I was pulling out my hair. I was indeed too slow. Since then they've been, on average, even fights. Sonic is now one of the fights I look forward to the most because of the challenge of avoiding being hit and landing hits while having lots of time to adjust to each other. Very fun fights.

I recommend a lot of stomping until sonic gets into the air. Then mix it up with aerials. This is a good fight to learn to not leave openings because you'll get punished so fast it will make your head spin. Choking is great if you can land it, but once again, be careful about leaving yourself open. I think Sonic can cancel their spin dash into a grab if they jump into you and you're shielding, so make sure to drop the shield if they're blooping in from above while in spin dash mode and punish with an aerial, preferably with u-air. If you do get grabbed, make sure to tech the down throw or you'll get *****. That isn't to say they won't use other throws, they're all pretty situational, but just make a special note of teching down throw to give you enough reaction time to take on whatever he does next. If you get knocked off the edge, be ready to u-air Sonic if he comes out to get you. Otherwise you'll get gimped.
Oh yeah, his up-b doesn't sweet-spot. Don't go for the gimp, go for the kill. His up-b allows him to cover too much distance for gimps to be applicable. Stomp his *** or, my favorite for his recovery, u-tilt.

Sonic's f-smash has deceptive power and range. His u-smash is negligible and the d-smash is stomp fodder. Tilts are very quick and have good range, but your d-tilt is better. Also, be sure to d-tilt your chokes for more chokes, d-tilts or u-airs.

This probably goes without saying but this match-up goes to whoever punishes the other guys mistakes better. Sonic is hard to punish but Ganon punishes hard given the chance. Ganon is easy to punish but Sonic doesn't punish very hard. I'm almost inclined to say this match-up is 50-50. Certainly not an advantage for Ganon, but once you learn the fight, I don't see much of an advantage for Sonic either.

50:50.

 

[mariofanpm12]

In my opinion, Sonic has advantage in maneuverability, which gives him the edge. His overall game is meh (in my opinion), but he is hard to punish and can land in many hits against Ganon. Ganon still has his usual punishing tricks, thought they're tougher to use here. The Flame Choke combos work well pretty much... Ganon just has to be smart and punish well, and really push to avoid Sonic's attacks. Sonic of course has problems killing, yet is sometime shard to kill himself. He's a midweight (1 or 2 spots under Mario) in fact. Getting in a D-air to gimp works, and the U-air can also stop the hedgehog.

In my opinion, if you have enough understanding of the matchup and can avoid being hit while also punishing well, this matchup can be almost 50:50... but in my opinion it's usually 45:55 in Sonic's favor at best... at the worst... 40:60 perhaps?

 

[Koskinator]

It's no worse than 50:50.

 

[thecatinthehat]

You're too slow vs. you can't kill? Fun...

Sonic's side B has inv. frames for it at the start...and it can cancel to a shield at the start of it...but the sound of the move will still play...so there is an example of fun mind games...

The Spin shot pretty much removes all doubt that Sonic can't move fast in the air...Are you aware of what PK Jump is with Ness? Well that is sort of what a spin shot is (propels Sonic forward very fast and lets him throw out an air attack...so it isn't like Ness' where you just have to deal with a Bolt and then a follow up attack)

Sonic is mid weight not light...
He can reach one side of FD in about 50 frames IIRC
Sonic's mobility isn't that great though overall...he isn't Wario or JP...

You can cancel down-b as you land from the air. You'll find that alot of Sonic use down-b aerially. This is what we call ASC (aerial spin charge).

I'm actually impressed with your knowledge of spinshot.

Ok. So Spinshot, as previously stated is a way to enhance his aerial mobility.
He will jump through the air at about the same speed as his dash.
It can be done with side-b or down-b(down-b being the faster one).
Sonic needs to have a double jump to be able to spinshot.
In turn, after performing a spinshot, Sonic loses his double jump (even if used from the ground).
He can do anything else out of his spinshot.

Against Sonic, Choke>Dtilt and Choke>iDA are guaranteed, as is Dair>Usmash at 0%. Keep your DA fresh so you can kill Sonic at 90% from a choke. Besides that, I don't have enough experience in the matchup to contribute.

I think Sonic can spring out of dair > u-smash.

Sonic has some "Chaingrabs" that rely on using many different ways of tricking people into the wrong response after Up, Down or Forward throw to get another grab. A Sonic competent with Grab traps can easily land 5+ Grabs in a row at low percents. Learn all of Sonic's options out of Grabs and learn them well. You really don't want to be fooled by this stuff.

Having a solid way to land a kill move is a lifesaver for Ganon in this matchup.

This is completely true.

You can tech his d-throw if you DI down.

The first time I fought a sonic, I was pulling out my hair. I was indeed too slow. Since then they've been, on average, even fights. Sonic is now one of the fights I look forward to the most because of the challenge of avoiding being hit and landing hits while having lots of time to adjust to each other. Very fun fights.

I recommend a lot of stomping until sonic gets into the air. Then mix it up with aerials. This is a good fight to learn to not leave openings because you'll get punished so fast it will make your head spin. Choking is great if you can land it, but once again, be careful about leaving yourself open. I think Sonic can cancel their spin dash into a grab if they jump into you and you're shielding, so make sure to drop the shield if they're blooping in from above while in spin dash mode and punish with an aerial, preferably with u-air. If you do get grabbed, make sure to tech the down throw or you'll get *****. That isn't to say they won't use other throws, they're all pretty situational, but just make a special note of teching down throw to give you enough reaction time to take on whatever he does next. If you get knocked off the edge, be ready to u-air Sonic if he comes out to get you. Otherwise you'll get gimped.
Oh yeah, his up-b doesn't sweet-spot. Don't go for the gimp, go for the kill. His up-b allows him to cover too much distance for gimps to be applicable. Stomp his *** or, my favorite for his recovery, u-tilt.

Sonic's f-smash has deceptive power and range. His u-smash is negligible and the d-smash is stomp fodder. Tilts are very quick and have good range, but your d-tilt is better. Also, be sure to d-tilt your chokes for more chokes, d-tilts or u-airs.

This probably goes without saying but this match-up goes to whoever punishes the other guys mistakes better. Sonic is hard to punish but Ganon punishes hard given the chance. Ganon is easy to punish but Sonic doesn't punish very hard. I'm almost inclined to say this match-up is 50-50. Certainly not an advantage for Ganon, but once you learn the fight, I don't see much of an advantage for Sonic either.

50:50.

In my opinion, Sonic has advantage in maneuverability, which gives him the edge. His overall game is meh (in my opinion), but he is hard to punish and can land in many hits against Ganon. Ganon still has his usual punishing tricks, thought they're tougher to use here. The Flame Choke combos work well pretty much... Ganon just has to be smart and punish well, and really push to avoid Sonic's attacks. Sonic of course has problems killing, yet is sometime shard to kill himself. He's a midweight (1 or 2 spots under Mario) in fact. Getting in a D-air to gimp works, and the U-air can also stop the hedgehog.

In my opinion, if you have enough understanding of the matchup and can avoid being hit while also punishing well, this matchup can be almost 50:50... but in my opinion it's usually 45:55 in Sonic's favor at best... at the worst... 40:60 perhaps?

It's no worse than 50:50.

I give it 60:40 Sonic.

I just dont see how Ganon is supposed to get a hit in. Sonic can cancel any of his approaches @ any time. Provoking an attack to punish shouldn't be too hard.

 

[:034:]

I just dont see how Ganon is supposed to get a hit in. Sonic can cancel any of his approaches @ any time. Provoking an attack to punish shouldn't be too hard.

Not really hard against somebody who doesn't approach though. XD

...

 

[Jim Morrison]

You'll hate F-air. Don't use laggy moves, safe kill options and only use them when you know you'll hit. You'll live long though, unless you get gimped, which (sorry) isn't hard on Ganon, especially with Spring and D-air. When you use up-B on us at high % we can F-air and U-air you immedeatly.

EDIT: Another tip. You will barely land any murder chokes unless you fight reckless Sonics.

 

[Browny]

I believe i have considerable experience in this matchup...

I cant imagine this being 50:50 simply because of certain counterpick stages and how effective spring/dthrow/fair is at intercepting/limiting ganons recovery

 

[Jim Morrison]

For stages I'd pick Delfino, just a good Ganon stage, not much that gives Sonic an advantage.
Also, spike his predictable spring trajectory.
On Delfino, this matchup might be 50:50.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Also, spike his predictable spring trajectory.

Airdodge his predictable spike trajectory...

 

[Jim Morrison]

It totally depends on how low you recover. If use it quite close to the ledge, you're still in the state where you can't do that. If you do it too late an airdodge could mean you miss the ledge. If you airdodge too soon, he'll hit you out of it.

 

[darkNES386]

Spring FROM underneath Ganon when he does his shorthop dair... see what happens

 

[MorphedChaos]

When will you guys get to Wario?

 

[Koskinator]

DK and GaW are 40-60 matchups. Sonic is no where near as hard as those matchups. 50:50.