LanceStern
Smash Lord
So this is just an experiment and kind of like a group project, but I was thinking along the lines of how we take a lot of time to analyze matchups for each specific character to character matchup such as Metaknight vs. Snake, Diddy Kong vs. Falco etc... so I want to attempt to do a universal
The point of the topic is to get a universal (yet basic) idea of the tools you need to win the matchup or make it competitive. People can come in and look at the list and see which traits their mains lack and strategize how to work around it I am not the most qualified person to win based on tournament results, but I can theorycraft pretty well haha. So please take a look and see what needs to be worked on, even if the color-coding needs to be worked on. So without further ado:
How to read the thread
The character in question is identified and under them are traits that are preferable for a character to have to beat the opponent. They are color-coded:
Red = Necessary to win the mathcup
Dark Orange = Preferable to have to make the matchup managable. Almost necessary to win
Lime = Preferable to make the matchup easier for you
White = Optional = Not needed at all to win, but it helps a lot to challenge some of the characters' more unique traits
UNIVERSAL MATCHUP ANALYSES
"What the heck do I need to beat this character?"
Metaknight:
+ Amazing shield
+ GREAT recovery option
+ Quick moveset (aerial and ground)
+ Fast air fall speed and/or good air dodge
+ Quick and PAINFUL OOS options
+ FAST, disjointed KO move
+ Good aerial mobility (or a move that will grant you that mobility)
+ FAST long horizontal range move (preferably aerial)
Optional: Projectile or high damage-racking capabilities
Optional: Multiple recovery options
Optional: Fast dash/running/walking speed
You need fast fall speed so that when Metaknight knocks you in the air he is not making your life a living nightmare trying to get down with uairs all day. You can't just have a great air dodge because if you're not falling fast he's going to throw out those 10 frame uairs all day to bait the dodge and then dair you. You need an amazing shield to handle his annoying tornado and dtilt.
If you're going to fight off his fairs, dtilt or punish the little cooldown his moves have when he's floating above your head, you are going to need a FAST, long range horizontal move to punish him. Falco's Jab, Diddy Kong Fair, Snake Ftilts, Marth dancing Blade and Fairs, Pikachu fair are attacks that come to mind.
Projectile would be good to force him to approach so you do not get timed out, and at least one GREAT recovery because if you only have one way of recovering, it better be invulnerable or you are going to die. Having multiple recoveries help make
Quick and PAINFUL OOS options are needed to deter Metaknight from being in your face. If he's in your face, you might lose, but if you have him approaching cautiously, you get time to think about what to do.
Added: a quick moveset in general is needed to truly beat metaknight. You need a fast jab, a fast aerial, (or two) and fast moves overall to even compete with his blindingly fast and hard-to-punish moveset. If you can't hit him, you're not going to win.
Snake:
+ Long range (almost disjointed) horizontal grounded attack
+ A quick unpredictable KO move with heavy knockback
+ A quick aerial with little cooldown
+ Good aerial mobility
+ Low cooldown, low vertical knockback move or chain grab
+ Able to chain grab Snake *NEW*
+ Good jump
Optional: Heavy vertical weight, or great momentum cancelling
Actually it's kind of hard for me to figure this one out because I rarely see characters win against Snake. A good shield is not REALLY necessary because you can stay in the air and spot dodge his projectiles. Probably the most critical tool to have is a horizontal grounded attack to challenge his tilts. It would be useful to have little cooldown on your grounded attack or else you will get tilted in the face. Having a quick aerial with little cooldown is very useful because you need a way to punish/juggle him in the air. They will do a lot of B reversing, air dodging and bairing to get down from the air, so you want to be able to catch him.
Snakes are heavier than a thanksgiving meal, and you need a way to hit him with a move that has ridiculous knockback to get a chance to KO him. If you think about moves that KO pro snakes: pikachu's thunder, shuttle loops, ike forward smash, fox upsmash, falco fsmash.... they have to be quick, large or have heavy knockback. Anything else he won't die, or he'll ahve such a percentage lead on you it won't matter because he'll come back and utilt you or jab/ftilt for the KO.
The little cooldown, low vertical knockback move is mentioned as good to have because it's useful for damage racking on Snake because he is very susceptible to being juggled at low percentages. He will almost always have the percentage lead if he gets more then two hits on you. Attacks I think of are Pikachu's Utilt, Fox's Utilt, Lucarios' Utilt, Falco/Pikachu/D3 chaingrab, and more.
It's optional to have a good vertical weight so that you aren't up tilted early on, or at the very least have a character that can momentum cancel. I say it's optional because if you are spacing well you should be able to stay away from the utilt and early ftilt KOs.
Falco:
+ Good close quarters combat (jabs or low cool down)
+ Fast walk speed or dash speed
+ A fast attack with horizontal range
+ High priority attack
+ Get out of my face move ( or good OOS option)
+ Not be chain-grabbable
+ Good shield / roll
+ A quick dash attack (to catch his phantasm retreats)
+ Able to chain grab Falco *NEW
Optional: Crawling or a very low crouch
Optional: SDI -> attacking
To beat Falco, you've got to have someone who can approach quickly because most Falcos will run to the opposite side of the stage and shoot at you all day. You have to have a good walk/run/dash attack speed for when he is trying to get away with a phantasm. If not, you will NEVER catch him. EVER. Combined with that would be a good horizontal attack that is quick so once you have dashed or walked to his landing position, you can actually hit him before he spot-dodges or shields. A long horizontal attack is also good if you feel like shield-walking through his lasers and trying to attack him in the cooldown from a safe distance.
(Crawling/crouching is an optional plus because you can go under them). When you finally do get close to Falco, you need a good shield and close quarters combat or he's going to jab, dash attack, grab and jab (yes again) until you are red in the face with frustration. Either have a jab that cannot be interrupted by his jab, or have moves that will hit him away so he can't punish you with a jab or shield grab of his own (I think of Marth's dancing blade or shiek ftilt). If he's is going to work on you at close quarters, a quick get out of my face move is necessary!
You don't necessarily need a strong KO move to take Falco out, but you need a way to hit through his high priority up smash, bair, utilt, jabs, and phantasm. His recovery is somewhat predictable so it's just knocking him far out enough to KO him.
By SDI -> Attacking I mean having a character that can both SDI into Falco and attack at the same time. Samus can SDI into Falco and Uair whereas it's very hard for peach to do so, and it just makes it so Falco cannot multi-jab you all day as a frustrating tactic.
Diddy Kong:
+ Agility (can move swiftly on the ground or short hopping)
+ Multi-hitting move (ground or aerial)
+ Moves with decent knockback
+ Good horizontal momentum cancelling
+ Good projectile
+ Low cooldown aerials
Optional: SDI-> Attack
Again Diddy kong is one of the tougher characters to pinpoint what traits are good to beat him because he covers a lot of matchups well. I would say a necessity is a multi-hitting move to punish his ridiculous spot dodge and shield. Moves with good knockback are useful because it knocks diddy kong away from his bananas, which are the bread and butter of diddy kong matches. Projectiles are useful so that you can throw Diddy kong out of the "I will just sit near him and camp with peanut and bananas all day until I shield and glide toss them" mentality.
Under the Lime section I put "Low cooldown aerials" as a way to bait out responses from Diddy Kong, but they must be low cooldown because Diddy Kong has a good out of shield game. You don't want a Fair, or Glide toss to the face because you are waiting for your moves to stop.
It's a hard match. You need to be able to move fast, think on your feet and have a character who is agile enough to maneuver around bananas and diddy kong swinging at you.
Marth:
+ Strong OOS Attack (or good anti air moves)
+ Strong horizontal knockback move
+ Hard to punish ledge recovery (or multiple ledge recovery options)
+ Quick, middle-range, decent knockback ground attack(s)
+ Good ground and/or air mobility
+ Good shield (durable and not easily poked)
+ Good vertical attacks
+ Projectile
+ Decent ledge-guarding move(s)
Optional: Don't be floaty
Looking first at the red zone the first thing mentioned is a good OOS attack. Marth plays completely in your face about a sword length away. But because of his natural aggressive tendencies, he will be on your shield or in your air space A LOT. To combat that, it's a necessity to have a GREAT out of shield move, and by great I mean it's fast and really punishes Marth for getting near you. It doesn't have to be an OOS mvoe so much as a quick shield-drop and attack option like Snake's ftilt, MK's nair, Falco's bair or dash attack... it has to be a move that can reach Marth when he tries to throw aerials at your shield..
The strong horizontal knockback move is key because that's honestly how you will KO marth the most: knocking him off the screen or gimping him. Marths also specialize in PUNISHING characters on the ledge trying to get back on stage, so having mulitple options to get on or just one really GOOD option that can be mixed up is key.
Not exactly NECESSARY to beat him but what really helps is having good ground/air mobility. if you feel your OOS option isn't safe, you need to get out of his way by dash retreating, or sometimes you just need to follow him in the air with an aerial. The middle range ground attacks mentioned is there so you can combat the tendency for Marth to try and outspace you with the tip of his sword.
The lime green section is filled to the brim because none of these are NECESSARY but they sure make things a heck of a lot easier when fighting Marth. Projectiles are good cause he has none and Marth has a blind spot when in the air and you're under him. You could almost get away with juggling him. Finally if you have a "decent" ledge guarding move to keep Marth offstage, you might just get a gimp.
Optional: Don't be floaty cause Marth eats you alive in the air if you are. And if you have a grounded OOS move fast enough to punish his dancing blade, you're doing great.
Mr. Game & Watch:
+ Strong KO Move
+ Quick OOS Move (aerial and ground)
+ High priority aerial
+ Good ranged ground attack
+ Far ground roll and tech roll
+ Vertical KO move
+ Quick grounded move (preferably a jab)
+ Great jab
Optional: SDI -> Attack
Game and Watch no matter what your strategy is, is usually hard to beat. He has high priority moves that rack up damage, and long hit boxes. What is NECESSARY to beat him is a strong KO move. Note it doesn't even have to be fast per se, you'll hit him with it somehow. But it's almost impossible to gimp him so you have to outright KO him. Also a good OOS aerial (MK, Peach, Falco nairs) and OOS grounded attack (jabs mostly or tilts) are key because he plays on your shield a LOT. It has to be fast because a lot of his moves autocancel and have weird duration on the hitboxes so you have very little time to actually punish.
For the dark orange section we have "high priority aerial" and this is up for debate. From my experience Game and Watches love to try and juggle you in the air or harass your shield, and you need an aerial to out prioritize his own moves and get him out. Thinking of Falco bairs, Diddy Fairs, Kriby/D3 bairs etc.
For the lime section it's definitely really helpful to have a long-ranged tech roll and ground roll because Game&Watches love to tech chase their down throw to a smash. A vertical KO move is helpful (but not necessary) because you'll have a time and a half KOing him horizontally: his bucket braking is a great momentum cancel. I also put a great jab in the sense that you can jab, press down and then jab quickly again (I forget the technical term: thinking of Falco, Peach). GameandWatch can't do anything if you hit him with this quick succession of jabs. It's really funny.
Ice Climbers:
+ SAFE, Quick, middle-range-or-better grounded move
+ SAFE, Quick aerial move with good knockback or low cooldown
+ SAFE, Quick get out of my face move
+ Projectile or trap
+ Good air time*
+ Safe multi-hitting move
+ Moves with good horizontal knockback
+ Move with decent shield knockback
Optional: Have a great keep away game if you want to time them out
Ice Climbers change how you play. Notice in the NECESSARY zone every option says SAFE. By SAFE i mean it's either (a) quick (b) low cooldown (c) has good shield knockback (Yoshi headbutt, MK fsmash, mario fsmash) (d) all of the above... or most important, can't be shield grabbed. You honestly need both a middle ranged ground move and aerial move to both keep them out of your face and harass nana, but also a close quarters combat move because inevitably they WILL get in your face and you need to get them out ASAP or get grabbed.
It's very useful to have a projectile or trap (banana, mines, bombs) around and to stay close by so that the climbers' synchronization is split up. If you don't have either then a multihitting move with decent range (Dancing blade, peach dsmash, falco jab, wario dair) should desync the two because nana's shield is dumb. It's almost necessary to have a character that has good air time, and by that I mean can either jump high or stay int he air a good while and be mobile so you can poke at the climbers with aerials without being shield grabbed. A very quick exception is Snake... who's tilts are disjointed enough to negate his need to do an aerial.
Finally you don't need a HUGE KO move to finish them off, but you need a move that will separate the two climbers far enough to do work on one of them. Once one is dead, you should have no problem handling the other.
This is a work in progress and I would appreciate people helping out and correcting me or giving ideas (maybe even doing a writeup or adding to it)
The point of the topic is to get a universal (yet basic) idea of the tools you need to win the matchup or make it competitive. People can come in and look at the list and see which traits their mains lack and strategize how to work around it I am not the most qualified person to win based on tournament results, but I can theorycraft pretty well haha. So please take a look and see what needs to be worked on, even if the color-coding needs to be worked on. So without further ado:
How to read the thread
The character in question is identified and under them are traits that are preferable for a character to have to beat the opponent. They are color-coded:
Red = Necessary to win the mathcup
Dark Orange = Preferable to have to make the matchup managable. Almost necessary to win
Lime = Preferable to make the matchup easier for you
White = Optional = Not needed at all to win, but it helps a lot to challenge some of the characters' more unique traits
UNIVERSAL MATCHUP ANALYSES
"What the heck do I need to beat this character?"
Metaknight:
+ Amazing shield
+ GREAT recovery option
+ Quick moveset (aerial and ground)
+ Fast air fall speed and/or good air dodge
+ Quick and PAINFUL OOS options
+ FAST, disjointed KO move
+ Good aerial mobility (or a move that will grant you that mobility)
+ FAST long horizontal range move (preferably aerial)
Optional: Projectile or high damage-racking capabilities
Optional: Multiple recovery options
Optional: Fast dash/running/walking speed
You need fast fall speed so that when Metaknight knocks you in the air he is not making your life a living nightmare trying to get down with uairs all day. You can't just have a great air dodge because if you're not falling fast he's going to throw out those 10 frame uairs all day to bait the dodge and then dair you. You need an amazing shield to handle his annoying tornado and dtilt.
If you're going to fight off his fairs, dtilt or punish the little cooldown his moves have when he's floating above your head, you are going to need a FAST, long range horizontal move to punish him. Falco's Jab, Diddy Kong Fair, Snake Ftilts, Marth dancing Blade and Fairs, Pikachu fair are attacks that come to mind.
Projectile would be good to force him to approach so you do not get timed out, and at least one GREAT recovery because if you only have one way of recovering, it better be invulnerable or you are going to die. Having multiple recoveries help make
Quick and PAINFUL OOS options are needed to deter Metaknight from being in your face. If he's in your face, you might lose, but if you have him approaching cautiously, you get time to think about what to do.
Added: a quick moveset in general is needed to truly beat metaknight. You need a fast jab, a fast aerial, (or two) and fast moves overall to even compete with his blindingly fast and hard-to-punish moveset. If you can't hit him, you're not going to win.
Snake:
+ Long range (almost disjointed) horizontal grounded attack
+ A quick unpredictable KO move with heavy knockback
+ A quick aerial with little cooldown
+ Good aerial mobility
+ Low cooldown, low vertical knockback move or chain grab
+ Able to chain grab Snake *NEW*
+ Good jump
Optional: Heavy vertical weight, or great momentum cancelling
Actually it's kind of hard for me to figure this one out because I rarely see characters win against Snake. A good shield is not REALLY necessary because you can stay in the air and spot dodge his projectiles. Probably the most critical tool to have is a horizontal grounded attack to challenge his tilts. It would be useful to have little cooldown on your grounded attack or else you will get tilted in the face. Having a quick aerial with little cooldown is very useful because you need a way to punish/juggle him in the air. They will do a lot of B reversing, air dodging and bairing to get down from the air, so you want to be able to catch him.
Snakes are heavier than a thanksgiving meal, and you need a way to hit him with a move that has ridiculous knockback to get a chance to KO him. If you think about moves that KO pro snakes: pikachu's thunder, shuttle loops, ike forward smash, fox upsmash, falco fsmash.... they have to be quick, large or have heavy knockback. Anything else he won't die, or he'll ahve such a percentage lead on you it won't matter because he'll come back and utilt you or jab/ftilt for the KO.
The little cooldown, low vertical knockback move is mentioned as good to have because it's useful for damage racking on Snake because he is very susceptible to being juggled at low percentages. He will almost always have the percentage lead if he gets more then two hits on you. Attacks I think of are Pikachu's Utilt, Fox's Utilt, Lucarios' Utilt, Falco/Pikachu/D3 chaingrab, and more.
It's optional to have a good vertical weight so that you aren't up tilted early on, or at the very least have a character that can momentum cancel. I say it's optional because if you are spacing well you should be able to stay away from the utilt and early ftilt KOs.
Falco:
+ Good close quarters combat (jabs or low cool down)
+ Fast walk speed or dash speed
+ A fast attack with horizontal range
+ High priority attack
+ Get out of my face move ( or good OOS option)
+ Not be chain-grabbable
+ Good shield / roll
+ A quick dash attack (to catch his phantasm retreats)
+ Able to chain grab Falco *NEW
Optional: Crawling or a very low crouch
Optional: SDI -> attacking
To beat Falco, you've got to have someone who can approach quickly because most Falcos will run to the opposite side of the stage and shoot at you all day. You have to have a good walk/run/dash attack speed for when he is trying to get away with a phantasm. If not, you will NEVER catch him. EVER. Combined with that would be a good horizontal attack that is quick so once you have dashed or walked to his landing position, you can actually hit him before he spot-dodges or shields. A long horizontal attack is also good if you feel like shield-walking through his lasers and trying to attack him in the cooldown from a safe distance.
(Crawling/crouching is an optional plus because you can go under them). When you finally do get close to Falco, you need a good shield and close quarters combat or he's going to jab, dash attack, grab and jab (yes again) until you are red in the face with frustration. Either have a jab that cannot be interrupted by his jab, or have moves that will hit him away so he can't punish you with a jab or shield grab of his own (I think of Marth's dancing blade or shiek ftilt). If he's is going to work on you at close quarters, a quick get out of my face move is necessary!
You don't necessarily need a strong KO move to take Falco out, but you need a way to hit through his high priority up smash, bair, utilt, jabs, and phantasm. His recovery is somewhat predictable so it's just knocking him far out enough to KO him.
By SDI -> Attacking I mean having a character that can both SDI into Falco and attack at the same time. Samus can SDI into Falco and Uair whereas it's very hard for peach to do so, and it just makes it so Falco cannot multi-jab you all day as a frustrating tactic.
Diddy Kong:
+ Agility (can move swiftly on the ground or short hopping)
+ Multi-hitting move (ground or aerial)
+ Moves with decent knockback
+ Good horizontal momentum cancelling
+ Good projectile
+ Low cooldown aerials
Optional: SDI-> Attack
Again Diddy kong is one of the tougher characters to pinpoint what traits are good to beat him because he covers a lot of matchups well. I would say a necessity is a multi-hitting move to punish his ridiculous spot dodge and shield. Moves with good knockback are useful because it knocks diddy kong away from his bananas, which are the bread and butter of diddy kong matches. Projectiles are useful so that you can throw Diddy kong out of the "I will just sit near him and camp with peanut and bananas all day until I shield and glide toss them" mentality.
Under the Lime section I put "Low cooldown aerials" as a way to bait out responses from Diddy Kong, but they must be low cooldown because Diddy Kong has a good out of shield game. You don't want a Fair, or Glide toss to the face because you are waiting for your moves to stop.
It's a hard match. You need to be able to move fast, think on your feet and have a character who is agile enough to maneuver around bananas and diddy kong swinging at you.
Marth:
+ Strong OOS Attack (or good anti air moves)
+ Strong horizontal knockback move
+ Hard to punish ledge recovery (or multiple ledge recovery options)
+ Quick, middle-range, decent knockback ground attack(s)
+ Good ground and/or air mobility
+ Good shield (durable and not easily poked)
+ Good vertical attacks
+ Projectile
+ Decent ledge-guarding move(s)
Optional: Don't be floaty
Looking first at the red zone the first thing mentioned is a good OOS attack. Marth plays completely in your face about a sword length away. But because of his natural aggressive tendencies, he will be on your shield or in your air space A LOT. To combat that, it's a necessity to have a GREAT out of shield move, and by great I mean it's fast and really punishes Marth for getting near you. It doesn't have to be an OOS mvoe so much as a quick shield-drop and attack option like Snake's ftilt, MK's nair, Falco's bair or dash attack... it has to be a move that can reach Marth when he tries to throw aerials at your shield..
The strong horizontal knockback move is key because that's honestly how you will KO marth the most: knocking him off the screen or gimping him. Marths also specialize in PUNISHING characters on the ledge trying to get back on stage, so having mulitple options to get on or just one really GOOD option that can be mixed up is key.
Not exactly NECESSARY to beat him but what really helps is having good ground/air mobility. if you feel your OOS option isn't safe, you need to get out of his way by dash retreating, or sometimes you just need to follow him in the air with an aerial. The middle range ground attacks mentioned is there so you can combat the tendency for Marth to try and outspace you with the tip of his sword.
The lime green section is filled to the brim because none of these are NECESSARY but they sure make things a heck of a lot easier when fighting Marth. Projectiles are good cause he has none and Marth has a blind spot when in the air and you're under him. You could almost get away with juggling him. Finally if you have a "decent" ledge guarding move to keep Marth offstage, you might just get a gimp.
Optional: Don't be floaty cause Marth eats you alive in the air if you are. And if you have a grounded OOS move fast enough to punish his dancing blade, you're doing great.
Mr. Game & Watch:
+ Strong KO Move
+ Quick OOS Move (aerial and ground)
+ High priority aerial
+ Good ranged ground attack
+ Far ground roll and tech roll
+ Vertical KO move
+ Quick grounded move (preferably a jab)
+ Great jab
Optional: SDI -> Attack
Game and Watch no matter what your strategy is, is usually hard to beat. He has high priority moves that rack up damage, and long hit boxes. What is NECESSARY to beat him is a strong KO move. Note it doesn't even have to be fast per se, you'll hit him with it somehow. But it's almost impossible to gimp him so you have to outright KO him. Also a good OOS aerial (MK, Peach, Falco nairs) and OOS grounded attack (jabs mostly or tilts) are key because he plays on your shield a LOT. It has to be fast because a lot of his moves autocancel and have weird duration on the hitboxes so you have very little time to actually punish.
For the dark orange section we have "high priority aerial" and this is up for debate. From my experience Game and Watches love to try and juggle you in the air or harass your shield, and you need an aerial to out prioritize his own moves and get him out. Thinking of Falco bairs, Diddy Fairs, Kriby/D3 bairs etc.
For the lime section it's definitely really helpful to have a long-ranged tech roll and ground roll because Game&Watches love to tech chase their down throw to a smash. A vertical KO move is helpful (but not necessary) because you'll have a time and a half KOing him horizontally: his bucket braking is a great momentum cancel. I also put a great jab in the sense that you can jab, press down and then jab quickly again (I forget the technical term: thinking of Falco, Peach). GameandWatch can't do anything if you hit him with this quick succession of jabs. It's really funny.
Ice Climbers:
+ SAFE, Quick, middle-range-or-better grounded move
+ SAFE, Quick aerial move with good knockback or low cooldown
+ SAFE, Quick get out of my face move
+ Projectile or trap
+ Good air time*
+ Safe multi-hitting move
+ Moves with good horizontal knockback
+ Move with decent shield knockback
Optional: Have a great keep away game if you want to time them out
Ice Climbers change how you play. Notice in the NECESSARY zone every option says SAFE. By SAFE i mean it's either (a) quick (b) low cooldown (c) has good shield knockback (Yoshi headbutt, MK fsmash, mario fsmash) (d) all of the above... or most important, can't be shield grabbed. You honestly need both a middle ranged ground move and aerial move to both keep them out of your face and harass nana, but also a close quarters combat move because inevitably they WILL get in your face and you need to get them out ASAP or get grabbed.
It's very useful to have a projectile or trap (banana, mines, bombs) around and to stay close by so that the climbers' synchronization is split up. If you don't have either then a multihitting move with decent range (Dancing blade, peach dsmash, falco jab, wario dair) should desync the two because nana's shield is dumb. It's almost necessary to have a character that has good air time, and by that I mean can either jump high or stay int he air a good while and be mobile so you can poke at the climbers with aerials without being shield grabbed. A very quick exception is Snake... who's tilts are disjointed enough to negate his need to do an aerial.
Finally you don't need a HUGE KO move to finish them off, but you need a move that will separate the two climbers far enough to do work on one of them. Once one is dead, you should have no problem handling the other.
This is a work in progress and I would appreciate people helping out and correcting me or giving ideas (maybe even doing a writeup or adding to it)
