the TKD thread

[crifer]

Don't worry my other next-to-kin, that's what I'm doing.

Patg, also help me with some things I theorized and put to practice yesterday. So I think I'm made some steps in the right direction. I just wanted another person's view on how to analyzing attack patterns. So actually anyone's advice is useful. I'll just pick and choose what I can use and apply.

I try to let them commit to actions (not only attacks). It´s like you do move/situation A and your watching what he usually does and counter it.
For example just run straight up to the opponent. Does he attack you? Does he Spotdodge? Does he roll back (especially at kill % cool, because you can run straight through or with his roll and usmash him).
Other example is getting them into the air, juggle them or do empty short hops.
Hope that helps you a little, though I´m not TKD ;D

 

[False]

I try to let them commit to actions (not only attacks). It´s like you do move/situation A and your watching what he usually does and counter it.
For example just run straight up to the opponent. Does he attack you? Does he Spotdodge? Does he roll back (especially at kill % cool, because you can run straight through or with his roll and usmash him).
Other example is getting them into the air, juggle them or do empty short hops.
Hope that helps you a little, though I´m not TKD ;D

Good players will mix up their games a lot. In the end, it's basically manipulation/reading with reaction as a generous dosage on the side. I'll usually refuse to flinch when I'm in high percentages but I'll also mix up the game for the sake of my opponent catching on and shield/roll. Although it's useful to observe your opponent, you shouldn't try to manipulate them purely by their behavior/tendencies; no, the top players will rarely succumb to that. If anything, you should try to manipulate them through your own conditioning. You combat them with your own nature and then you absolve their habits by enforcing your own.

Of course, I'm not completely disregarding your statement as false, it definitely has validity in it. (Ie as Snake: I have someone on the edge with a grenade right behind them and me in front of them with spacing ftilt1s. They're most likely going to roll, so naturally I'd wait for it and punish.) So yes, you're correct, but players who rely solely on analysis of players will rarely reach far. Manipulation is a big key to Brawl.

 

[Blacknight99923]

iblis the way to become great is to make yourself a self made player.

if that makes sense

 

[Conviction]

@Crifer & False: Thanks for the info guys, I think False went more into depth though I'll more out of manipulation.

@Soren: No, I didn't understand I word of it :-/ if you get on AIM before I go I'd like for you to explain more.

EDIT: This is the list of people going

Attendance List:
Player-1
Player-2
Player-3
Hichez
Zeke
Lucas
Edge
Mambo
Mc. Pee
Jamaal
Harbinger
NoiD
Hero Chima
Neo X
Scatt
Link Queen
Huggles
Miles
Flea
Reflex
Michaelis
Kismet
Billy
Dyno
DRN/Turtl/Chas
M2K
Kadaj
H1N1
Uncle
disasterABDUL
arch
Mercy
Sakul
Troooer (interested)
Zatch (interested)
iblis

 

[*CT*]

That's Salt2 isn't it?

I wanted to go to that I see NC people in that list, I hate work.

 

[TKD]

Lightning is correct, somewhat: the only alien information you can apply is that which matches your base perception: which means that whatever matches your way of seeing things with someone else's should take priority over that which doesn't, since you're the one to apply it. Light's advice makes reference to the fact that what you come up with yourself will obviously match your own perception.

What I see you trying to assess, Iblis, I call "Behavior Control". While typing up my response, I became highly motivated, and it ended up as a blog post.

Here it is:
http://smashclubs.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/behavior-management-take-1/

 

[Conviction]

Lightning is correct, somewhat: the only alien information you can apply is that which matches your base perception: which means that whatever matches your way of seeing things with someone else's should take priority over that which doesn't, since you're the one to apply it. Light's advice makes reference to the fact that what you come up with yourself will obviously match your own perception.

What I see you trying to assess, Iblis, I call "Behavior Control". While typing up my response, I became highly motivated, and it ended up as a blog post.

Here it is:
http://smashclubs.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/behavior-management-take-1/

Haha word, I did average at the tourney my-next-to-kin but I'll definitely get to reading this.

Thanks homie.

EDIT: Wow that 2nd paragraph summed me up pretty fast O.o

 

[TKD]

Thanks homie.

EDIT: Wow that 2nd paragraph summed me up pretty fast O.o

Mere coincidence, my friend...and no prob.

New match-ups writeup

- Ice Climbers: Bair can be safe on block. Crossups are good. If IC blizzard my shield, I must unblock. Reflecting ice blocks is good; hitting them with shine is not.
- Marth: Nair counters DB. Avoid fthrow to fthrow to offstage dair: bair (AC'd or fast-falled) and mixing up is good vs that. It's good to shieldgrab his fair. If he whiffs sh fair, easy dash attack. Miss-spaced sh fair on my shield sucks for him. He's very limited at the ledge because of my dash attack.
- Snake: Bair ***** but is risky not to autocancel. His tilts (for ftilt it's ftilt2) can be dash usmashed from block or when they whiff. Vulnerable to juggles. Predict pivots or counter everything else. Avoid ftilt combo and his grabs. Bait kill moves. Practice HCDI on his likeliest ftilt1s to punish them. Cross-ups, nairs and quick stuff works very well.
- Meta Knight: Read his dtilt. Read his upb. His dsmash sucks. Always pressure him. Be patient. **** his airgame with antiair tactics.
- Pikachu: Handicap self or bait its grab most of the match. Its fresh dthrow has no follow-up at 50-something.
- Lucario: fair from the right angle beats all of his aerials. LOL.

Self: Don't utilt to utilt when it won't combo. Don't utilt shields. Land patiently: I have a million options.

Notes
- ddd seems to do well vs every bad fox matchup: ic, pika, sheik, wario, kirby. better than marth and mk at covering those...you can argue kirby is an even match-up; but it's annoying as hell to play.
- fox's best stages are battlefield, yoshi's island, halberd. platform cancels in lylat may allow for lots of ****.

Wish Me Luck this weekend. I'm attending a couple tourneys. Edit: I did worse than average; but learned a couple lessons. DEHF got better btw! He's much better than the last time M2K beat him...maybe that wouldn't happen again?

 

[Chef Fox]

Hey TKD how do we punish Falco's Side Smash on our shield? Every time I go for Dash Up Smash or grab he jabs and I lose.
You mentioned above that Dedede covers Fox's bad matchups, but I disagree, he does poorly against Ice Climbers, the Dedede boards agree with me here.

 

[TKD]

It's easier than they say.
Just unblock and dash usmash ASAP. You can let go of shield during shieldstun. I don't know about buffering it; not sure if I've done that. If you won't have time hit him because of bad reaction or a lot of distance, don't. Falco's amount of cool-down makes sense, it's not deceiving or anything.

 

[Conviction]

If it's misspaced idk why you can't punish it. If he spaced it correctly don't even try to punish that. Even with that cool down lag, it still has good range. Learn Fox's dash/foxtrot speed, apply it to the distance that you are while in shieldstun to determine if you should try to punish it. It's not that hard once you learn Fox's foxtrot distance as well.

 

[TKD]

It's even more simple than that. Is it practice? Check it out. Can't risk it? Don't do it.

 

[Kuares]

Hey Tdk, would fine if I used the second post and started organizing your posts of into categories and sections. Maybe something like...

-General Gameplay Tips
-Fox Specifics
-Character Strategies
-???​

I remember you saying that you wanted someone to do that before, but I wanted to make sure.

 

[TKD]

I'd forgotten, Kuares! I'll work on that right now. Everyone's game keeps disproving itself with better and better things to do, so my first posts may be a bit off. Oh yeah; I went to a couple tourneys this weekend too and won them!

 

[Conviction]

Good stuff my next-to-kin! Also I see you lurking cloud. Good stuff against Kasper even though you lost, it was very entertaining to watch even though at point you made me want to break the computer.

Aiyyo TKD you should consider adding what attacks beat things like how SH Nair and Dair beat spotdodge, Bair's safety, Grabbing and variations, etc.

 

[C.R.Z]

Good stuff my next-to-kin! Also I see you lurking cloud. Good stuff against Kasper even though you lost, it was very entertaining to watch even though at point you made me want to break the computer.

Aiyyo TKD you should consider adding what attacks beat things like how SH Nair and Dair beat spotdodge, Bair's safety, Grabbing and variations, etc.

lol i wasnt lurking, this page was left open XD

and yeah i played like a ******...bad player i am. its cool tho, wont happen again X_X

 

[TKD]

After each tourney loss, you should fix or find an answer for at least your biggest mistake. Assuming you attend a lot of tourneys, you'll improve quickly! And to my experience, fixing one biggie is like fixing ten smallies. Heh.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Tkd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <3

 

[Conviction]

TF? No one can show love to my next-to-kin but me homes. Lol

 

[_Kadaj_]

But we use to talk on aim all the time, not so much anymore though

 

[Kuares]

I'd forgotten, Kuares! I'll work on that right now. Everyone's game keeps disproving itself with better and better things to do, so my first posts may be a bit off.

Nononono, I'd rather you be the Sigmund Freud of Fox theory and make as many theories of gameplans as you possibly can. It gives people things to discuss.

Leave the organization and classification of your statements to other people.

 

[Conviction]

But we use to talk on aim all the time, not so much anymore though

Same here homie.

He has no more time for us anymore.

 

[Rizk18]

Tkd, what are your 3 worst MU's besides the 3 death MU's, and what are your best?

 

[Conviction]

My next-to-kin, I have another question. (I always have good one after tournies it seems)

How do you punish people for dashing at you? What's the most effective way? Kadaj was showing me this at yesterdays tourney. Where he would stand in the safe zone of MK and it would make the MK player react by dashing and during that open window where you can't shield (the foxtrot), Kadaj would punish their dash. Best one was when he tipper Fsmashed the MK.

Me and Kadaj thought of walking grab, and one of my videos I have uploading I jabbed them as they were in that open window. Where can Dair, Usmash, etc. be applied to this opening?

Thanks in advcnce my next-to-kin. Anyone else feel free to answer if you wish.

 

[C.R.Z]

My next-to-kin, I have another question. (I always have good one after tournies it seems)

How do you punish people for dashing at you? What's the most effective way? Kadaj was showing me this at yesterdays tourney. Where he would stand in the safe zone of MK and it would make the MK player react by dashing and during that open window where you can't shield (the foxtrot), Kadaj would punish their dash. Best one was when he tipper Fsmashed the MK.

Me and Kadaj thought of walking grab, and one of my videos I have uploading I jabbed them as they were in that open window. Where can Dair, Usmash, etc. be applied to this opening?

Thanks in advcnce my next-to-kin. Anyone else feel free to answer if you wish.

well if your punishing the dash in the foxtrot then i would normally drill,nair or walking jab. its funny you should ask this question actually because i was thinking alot about responses to dashes with fox yesterday.

 

[Conviction]

Aight thanks Cloud.

 

[TKD]

Walk grab is good on dash-ins. Dash attack and dash usmash win too, with a bit of prediction. These answers are so easy to punish that your opponent may feel silly enough to strongly reduce their preference of dash-ins. I also like rolling through the opponent. It doesn't result in much, but it seems annoying and lets me observe the opponent a bit.

Some dash-ins have specific answers. Short hop nair beats Marth's dancing blade...but yeah blocking and walk grab tend to be very good (but don't be stiff and just stand there and block; walk block or something). Jab kind of sucks because of what happens when it trades hits. I've tried ftilt but that move pressures much better than it stops dash-ins.

I don't like to use aerials since they take so long to set up. It's 5 or 6 frames to get in the air, then another bunch to be able to execute an aerial. Exceptions: Being on a lower spot (center of Frigate, sides of Delfino beach, lower side of Lylat), fighting characters bair is good against, specially if it makes a good auto-cancel (Snake, Falco, etc.). Nair doesn't sound bad at all if you preemptively short hop forward though.

It's not rare for walk grab to counter dash grabs. It beats dash-in block. And walk block covers the rest pretty well.

 

[Conviction]

Thanks my next-to-kin. My other request is....get on AIM more!

 

[_Kadaj_]

TKD We need to talk on aim more from time to time again

 

[Rizk18]

Please answer my question Tkd.

 

[TKD]

Why would you want to know what I do best and worst against? That's pretty shifty.

I've been playing a bit. Dash block works pretty well on Meta Knight! Walk block is as good as always. If the opening's obvious, you can even shield-grab from skid (for example if MK whiffs a fair as you dash into him).

Another thing that works great on Meta Knight is air-jump nair as an anti air. Air-jumps are so much better than full hops because not only do they rise quicker, but they have 1 frame start-up instead of 5. And the reason nair is so good is because of its 4-frame start-up. You still have the option to fair/uair/bair, as long as you're confident in them. Air-jump uair is an easy hit to punish MK's whiffed air-jump dair. The spacing for fair is a bit tricky, but it's good if you get the right height and tipper the kicks so opposing DI won't be dangerous. So, though nair is the easier choice, remember Fox has other powerful aerials.

Another interesting bit about shield-work against MK is his ftilt. I was playing MK against a friend of mine, and I landed ftilt1 on his shield as he dash blocked into me. He immediately usmashed! I was surprised. As he said "don't touch my shield, *****!", I thought "holy crap, the mix-up". It's common in MK play to only use ftilt1, and only continue it if it hits, to be safe. But my opponent's ability to retaliate with usmash makes it...not as safe as it should be! Throughout the ftilt, there's a chance of usmash or shield-grab from Fox. That's pretty good.

MK's dtilt still has 10 cool-down frames. With good reaction, you can shield-grab it, but you need quite a godly moment to power-block and usmash it (you'd have to predict the dtilt and be ready to usmash as soon as you blocked it).

With good shield-work and anti-air game, all that's left are details and Fox stuff, like recovery. MK quite frequently shows to be a marvelous character with his ability to take advantage of momentum anyway though. At least he's not as good as Marth at the combo stuff.

Further application for shield-grab from skid is to continue combos: regularly, only dash attack would have time to reach, but the couple frames less that a shield-grab from skid takes can be enough for it to link just in time.

Buffering may have more importance than I give it. Executing dashes and whatever ASAP allows your links to be as fluid as possible. So several of the chances to apply things like the shield-grab from skid to continue combos that I mentioned, may come after having buffered a dash. Not buffering means you're consistently missing out on around 1~3 frames. A friend of mine mentioned how noticeable my buffering ability is, so I thought that I may underrate it simply because I'm already doing it, and don't know the difference it would make if I didn't.

 

[Kuares]

Another interesting bit about shield-work against MK is his ftilt. I was playing MK against a friend of mine, and I landed ftilt1 on his shield as he dash blocked into me. He immediately usmashed! I was surprised. As he said "don't touch my shield, *****!", I thought "holy crap, the mix-up". It's common in MK play to only use ftilt1, and only continue it if it hits, to be safe. But my opponent's ability to retaliate with usmash makes it...not as safe as it should be! Throughout the ftilt, there's a chance of usmash or shield-grab from Fox. That's pretty good.

Was it powershielded? If it was it maybe that Powershield Canceling that was posted in a video a while ago. If it is, then I'll have to learn to run into opponents attacks and jam up on C-stick. Even more Upsmash set ups.

I'm not sure it there's any action that occurs if you don't powershield, but there may be grab. Which if does then, you get a grab if they don't attack, and if they do, you powershield and then upsmash. (Or they spot dodge but that's is a misread then)

I'll have to check in the morning.

 

[TKD]

You don't need a powershield. MK players wait after ftilt1 to see if it connected. During this intentional delay is when I was usmashed from block. And "powershield canceling" doesn't exist. It's just the following in motion:

Regular unblocking: 7 frames
Unblocking from powerblock: 1 frame
(after shield-stun is over!)

Either way, you don't need to unblock for execution of usmash or shield-grab, so it's irrelevant.
And yes, grab is easier to land. You have 6 frame start-up instead of 8, plus a grab-armor frame.

If they'll do more hits (soon), it's a prediction/timing thing. But having an option against any timing variation definitely limits them.

PS. I love that they let me keep my own thread.
@kadaj: Sure! I'll start logging in more often.

 

[Conviction]

Rejected for Kadaj

 

[Kuares]

So I've got my Sheik and Pikachu experience pretty much down with Fox, the only character I don't know how to deal with still is Ice Climbers. I remember you saying that they shouldn't be so bad but I still don't see how you're supposed to go about beating them. Mainly how to approach safely and run around without getting grabbed.


Random: Apparently on Yui's youtube, he had an interesting video of a grab release on MK on FD. I've tried it and have yet to meet success... it was because I wasn't doing the pummel.

 

[crifer]

I saw that vid of YUI, I thought that it could be possible to have an guaranted grab release usmash, if his feet does not touch the air while grabbed.
now we have to concentrate on pattern how often mk's like to jump until they land and try to get in the grab.

Also I need to use more walking grab and dashing forth and back as zoning.
ima gonna try out that oos usmash against ftilt :-)

 

[Lightning93]

What part of that grab release aren't you succeeding on Kuares?

I personally don't understand why Yui chooses to pummel MK. To my knowledge, in order to guarantee an air escape in this case you grab MK out of the air and just wait.

 

[Conviction]

Pummel to make them try to break faster and causing an air release.

 

[Kuares]

Not pummelling continously, from what I understand it, you first have to grab MK out of the air at the top of the grab hitbox. Right as you grab him you do the initial pummel that stops him from being placed on the ground(somehow) and leaves his feet dangling.

Then comes the grab release.

 

[Lightning93]

Pummel to make them try to break faster and causing an air release.

Right as you grab him you do the initial pummel that stops him from being placed on the ground(somehow) and leaves his feet dangling.

To my knowledge and from personal experience, all you have to do is simply grab him out of the air... And simply wait for the air release. If you pummel him (and if MK is breaking out correctly) there's a very minimal chance he's going to trigger an air escape.

The way I know releases to work, is that if the character is tall enough so this his/her opponent is dangling in mid-air, unless you pummel to force a ground release it will always be an air release. I believe the same principle applies to Fox, except he achieves this artificial height by grabbing with said upper hitbox.

But if Yui is the one intentionally pummeling, it causes me to question the legitimacy of my thoughts...