The Skyloft Library's Zelda Compendium

[KuroganeHammer]

Yes, because your opponent will never be in dtilt range.

/fuujin

 

[Alacion]

Well you're all free to suggest improvements. Criticism is fine as long as it's constructive.

Rather than saying I'm just wrong, it'd be nice if you could tell me why and what I can do to make it right.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well you're all free to suggest improvements. Criticism is fine as long as it's constructive.

Rather than saying I'm just wrong, it'd be nice if you could tell me why and what I can do to make it right.

I'll try to help you out Courier because I don't want to see you go out like this and I love your initiative.

Dtilt is her best ground move because of it's speed and it's ability to link into other moves and cause tripping. It's also a lot safer on shield than Usmash. When it's spaced properly it can be safe on shield.

Usmash while is good for kill and taking an opponent out of the are it's not really better than dtilt. Not with the cool down on the move. So will it comes out really fast the move as a whole isn't very good because of the cool down and when you hit it on a shield you're going to be boned.

Fsmash is Zelda's second best ground move because of the ability for the move to be safe on shields. However, fsmash is the opposite of Usmash in the sense that it suffers from very poor start up. It will also trade with a lot of moves and you're going to eat a lot of damage while your opponent only takes 1. Bad for trades and bad start up.

Dsmash- is Zelda's fatest ground move coming out at four frames but suffers from the same weakness as Usmash horrible cool down. It's an okay move to use as a GTFO my face but the cool down is so severe you're going to be eating a lot. It's also a decent follow up to dtilt (but there's a chance your opponent will tech your dsmash) '

Utilt - Kills better than Usmahs for starters it also has transcendent priority like the rest of the moves (except dsamsh and dtilt respectively). However, given the nature of the move when it trades you can get surprise ko's (risky but you gotta take risk) It also suffers from the same weakness as most of Zelda's other moves. (Actually only 3 of Zelda's ground moves are okay on shield and you gave one of them a 1 =/) Utilt is also a good way to punish air dodges and if you get a read on your opponent to punish their landings.


For me I'd rank Zelda ground moves as this.

Dtilt- 5 stars
Fsmash - 4 stars

and the rest 2 or 3 stars and DA 1 star.

 

[Fuujin]

D smash > Up/F smash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nuoFfza2w

I'll elaborate later

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

D smash > Up/F smash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nuoFfza2w

I'll elaborate later

Dsmash isn't better than either move IMO but. I'll wait to here your opinion that video doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. However, if Fsmash is spaced correctly you can't DI it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

sooo....this morning when i got up i thought of something. currently the moveset descriptions here are nice and short. but will we be putting a longer summary in a collapse tag or link to a post in the Sexy Poses thread that holds a longer summary?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Additional Con for Zelda: Aerial game is riddled with blindspots at every diagonal and since none of her aerials linger, she can't poke with them.

 

[MechaWave]

Nevermind.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

sooo....this morning when i got up i thought of something. currently the moveset descriptions here are nice and short. but will we be putting a longer summary in a collapse tag or link to a post in the Sexy Poses thread that holds a longer summary?

imo we should just put our collective knowledge on this thread.

What will we do about random tidbits of information like: "Zelda can d-smash Snake's mines because she doesn't care" though?

 

[MechaWave]

Once you get to the parts about Zelda's throws you can copypaste my findings for dthrow as a quote.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13526113#post13526113

Testing was conducted on Rainbow Cruise, Final Destination, Shadow Moses Island and Pokemon Stadium 1 with Mario in Training Mode and VS. Mode (to test if there were any differences other than damage since Training doesn't have Stale Move Negation.)

Characters tested were Mario, King Dedede, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Game & Watch, Sonic, Captain Falcon and Meta Knight in both modes. I set the CPU's to "Control" in TM to ensure no DI was used. Later I used the second controller for DI differences.

 

[Kataefi]

this is cool! you know for pros and cons i think it should be mentioned that:

- din's fire being a controlled projectile is more of a description of din's, not really a pro.
- outside of walling someone with hitboxes and usmash OoS, i don't think she many good defensive options. if she was successfully defensive she'd be able to play a great OoS game and I don't think she has that yet
- what does a keepaway move do?
- i agree with fuujin that yes she does have a long ranged recovery and grab, but this is more of a description of said moves. i think what we should be asking instead: are her recovery/grab (as whole moves) good pros? I think they're more cons than they are pros
- i'd definitely mention dtilt as a plus. not many moves have its properties.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

this is cool! you know for pros and cons i think it should be mentioned that:

- din's fire being a controlled projectile is more of a description of din's, not really a pro.
- outside of walling someone with hitboxes and usmash OoS, i don't think she many good defensive options. if she was successfully defensive she'd be able to play a great OoS game and I don't think she has that yet
- what does a keepaway move do?
- i agree with fuujin that yes she does have a long ranged recovery and grab, but this is more of a description of said moves. i think what we should be asking instead: are her recovery/grab (as whole moves) good pros? I think they're more cons than they are pros
- i'd definitely mention dtilt as a plus. not many moves have its properties.

Those aren't descriptions those are pros. If she had a shorter grab range it'd be a negative. But she has one of the longer no tether grabs in the game. That;s a pro.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

imo we should just put our collective knowledge on this thread.

What will we do about random tidbits of information like: "Zelda can d-smash Snake's
mines because she doesn't care" though?

Right right. so i'll try and get some summaries going ASAIC

maybe have that at the end of the guide? since they are random things lol

Once you get to the parts about Zelda's throws you can copypaste my findings for dthrow as a quote.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13526113#post13526113

Testing was conducted on Rainbow Cruise, Final Destination, Shadow Moses Island and Pokemon Stadium 1 with Mario in Training Mode and VS. Mode (to test if there were any differences other than damage since Training doesn't have Stale Move Negation.)

Characters tested were Mario, King Dedede, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Game & Watch, Sonic, Captain Falcon and Meta Knight in both modes. I set the CPU's to "Control" in TM to ensure no DI was used. Later I used the second controller for DI differences.

will be doing so when Dtrow discussion is over.

 

[Kataefi]

Those aren't descriptions those are pros. If she had a shorter grab range it'd be a negative. But she has one of the longer no tether grabs in the game. That;s a pro.

thing is it's cool saying grab is long ranged and one of the longer ones in the game, that's all true... but she can't land it in common situations where other characters' grabs would, so describing it as long ranged is more descriptive and kinda irrelevant to the reality that she struggles to land it in comparison to other non-tether grabs (and this is what makes it an overall con relative to the rest of the cast).

^does that even make any sense

it would have been amazing if it was DDD's speed and that would be a pro to mention. but it's not, it's the speed of a tether without the tether.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

thing is it's cool saying grab is long ranged and one of the longer ones in the game, that's all true... but she can't land it in common situations where other characters' grabs would, so describing it as long ranged is more descriptive and kinda irrelevant to the reality that she struggles to land it in comparison to other non-tether grabs (and this is what makes it an overall con relative to the rest of the cast).

^does that even make any sense

it would have been amazing if it was DDD's speed and that would be a pro to mention. but it's not, it's the speed of a tether without the tether.

Yeah if her grab was faster than her grab would be amazing but. The pro is it has a lot of range the con is it has slow start up.

 

[Fuujin]

Yeah if her grab was faster than her grab would be amazing but. The pro is it has a lot of range the con is it has slow start up.

Long range alone does not make a grab good.
Again, see ZSS.

Dtilt is her best ground move because of it's speed and it's ability to link into other moves and cause tripping. It's also a lot safer on shield than Usmash. When it's spaced properly it can be safe on shield.

I agree with that.

Usmash while is good for kill and taking an opponent out of the are it's not really better than dtilt. Not with the cool down on the move. So will it comes out really fast the move as a whole isn't very good because of the cool down and when you hit it on a shield you're going to be boned.

I agree with that, though the move has really nice usage at high and low percent against heavyweights.
It should just be used sparingly or when you think you have a god chance of landing it.

Fsmash is Zelda's second best ground move because of the ability for the move to be safe on shields. However, fsmash is the opposite of Usmash in the sense that it suffers from very poor start up. It will also trade with a lot of moves and you're going to eat a lot of damage while your opponent only takes 1. Bad for trades and bad start up.

Disagree with that.
The fact that it's supposed to be a kill move but cannot reliable kill and only does like 2 damage when DI'd out of certainly doesn't make it her second best ground move.

Dsmash- is Zelda's fatest ground move coming out at four frames but suffers from the same weakness as Usmash horrible cool down. It's an okay move to use as a GTFO my face but the cool down is so severe you're going to be eating a lot. It's also a decent follow up to dtilt (but there's a chance your opponent will tech your dsmash)

This is her second best ground move imo.
Comes out on frame 4 and makes a really nice OOS option(her only good one at that), semi spikes, has nice knock back, covers both side of her and it has a very nice disjoint.
This is pretty much her only reliable smash attack, when you land it you can be guaranteed the opponent is being sent away, unlike her other smash attacks.
It can be teched but that hardly ever happens considering the speed that it comes out on.

Utilt - Kills better than Usmahs for starters it also has transcendent priority like the rest of the moves (except dsamsh and dtilt respectively). However, given the nature of the move when it trades you can get surprise ko's (risky but you gotta take risk) It also suffers from the same weakness as most of Zelda's other moves. (Actually only 3 of Zelda's ground moves are okay on shield and you gave one of them a 1 =/) Utilt is also a good way to punish air dodges and if you get a read on your opponent to punish their landings.

I think you're overrating this move.
Up tilt pretty much requires a follow up from d tilt or your opponent to run into it for it to hit.
It has really nice kill power and if the opponent doesn't DI after D tilt it can kill at very nice percents.
It's too slow to have any other uses.

I'd rate
Jab 1/5
F tilt 2/5
Up tilt 2/5
D tilt 5/5
Dash Attack 2/5
F smash 3/5
D smash 4/5
Up smash 3/5
N air 2/5
F air 1/5
B air 3/5
Up air 2/5
D air 2/5
Nayru's 2/5
Din's 2/5
Farores 2/5
Transform 5/5(lol)
Grab 1/5
Dash Grab 1/5
Pivot Grab 2/5
F throw 3/5
B throw 3/5
D throw 3/5
Up Throw 2/5

If anyone has any questions about ratings just ask and I will explain

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Up-smash deserves a 5/5 for being her only reliable kill move.

Down-smash deserves it too for the same reasons.

Nair is better than 2 only because you can use it to combo into up-smash (lol) on most characters.

Pivot grab is trash and not better than dash grab.

Other than that, I'd agree with most of it. <3



Also, up-air and up-tilt need more love. If your opponent is stupid enough to use a move above you, these two moves are good punishers.

It's a shame utilt can be DI'd really well though, so it usually won't kill faster than up-smash.

 

[Alacion]

Nice to see so much input! Unfortunately, I have 3 group projects and some assignments to take care of today and a smashfest tomorrow so I'll probably not update this guide until Monday.

Thanks Aero for the pics btw, I'll add them on Monday.

 

[Fuujin]

Up-smash deserves a 5/5 for being her only reliable kill move.

Down-smash deserves it too for the same reasons.

Nair is better than 2 only because you can use it to combo into up-smash (lol) on most characters.

Pivot grab is trash and not better than dash grab.

Other than that, I'd agree with most of it. <3



Also, up-air and up-tilt need more love. If your opponent is stupid enough to use a move above you, these two moves are good punishers.

It's a shame utilt can be DI'd really well though, so it usually won't kill faster than up-smash.

Up smash isn't reliable though....
N air i like up tilt, your opponent has to pretty much let you land it.
It's very un safe on shield unless the opulent is above you.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Up smash isn't reliable though....
N air i like up tilt, your opponent has to pretty much let you land it.
It's very un safe on shield unless the opulent is above you.

Can't the same thing by said about dsmash ?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think Nair would be worth a 3 if it covered more of her body and worked on shorter characters. as is, its only safe on shield if you go behind tall characters.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

nair is her best aerial.......

 

[Fuujin]

nair is her best aerial.......

Doesn't mean it's good lol.

Down smash is her only smash attack that's guaranteed to make the opponent go flying.
Landing her other smash attacks doesn't guarantee high knock back, or even damage.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Doesn't mean it's good lol.

Down smash is her only smash attack that's guaranteed to make the opponent go flying.
Landing her other smash attacks doesn't guarantee high knock back, or even damage.

If you space fsmash properly than it's guaranteed. Also her nair is a very good move. Also dsmash can be DI'd into the stage and teched.

 

[PEACE7]

I had no idea you could DI out of Zelda's jab, good stuff you guys got here.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I actually see your point about Dsmash Fuu. I would add though that I would either try saving it as my first kill move or using it as a gtfo move at mid damage only so thats it is certain to clear people out.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Up-smash is only two frames slower than d-smash and is far, far stronger and has better shieldpoking abilities. Just don't get predictable with it.

As for d-smash, I've only had opponents DI into the stage and tech a few times because the moves comes out too fast to do it on reaction.

imo, while nair might not be safe on shield, it's safer than bair and nair is fantastic platform pressure.

I should probably save d-smash for kills more. lol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Up-smash is only two frames slower than d-smash and is far, far stronger and has better shieldpoking abilities. Just don't get predictable with it.

As for d-smash, I've only had opponents DI into the stage and tech a few times because the moves comes out too fast to do it on reaction.

imo, while nair might not be safe on shield, it's safer than bair and nair is fantastic platform pressure.

I should probably save d-smash for kills more. lol

You don't really want to be using usmash on people's shield you're going to get punished for doing things like that. Same with the rest of her ground moves except for well spaced jab dtilt and fsmash's.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Usmash is generally better at eating spotdodges than shields unless said shield was already low.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ideally you don't want to be hitting anyone's shield with Zelda.

I just said it's decent at shieldpoking.

 

[Alacion]

Okay, here's the itinerary for tomorrow including notes to myself.

-Addition of Aero's images
-Possible update of ratings
-Cons: "Aerial game is riddled with blindspots at every diagonal and since none of her aerials linger, she can't poke with them." - Sonic the Hedgedawg
-Include information for smashes, including d-smash on mine
-Begin layout for aerials
-Throws I'll add at the end of the moveset
-Adjusting the pros regarding specials, grab's range, and dtilt
-Keep away is gtfo moves lol...
-Reference for Fuujin's ratings
-Nair I'll be doing once smashes are complete (note to self: not that good, arms only)
-Dsmash - only reliable smash to send opponent flying
-Usmash - punishes spotdodges, shield pressure
-Update credits

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ideally you don't want to be hitting anyone's shield with Zelda.

I just said it's decent at shieldpoking.

Yeah but when you do hit someone's shield (and you will) the moves that are hardest to punish are fsmash dtilt and jab.

@courier IDK if you want to add any of that stuff. It's pretty *meh*.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's not like it's Warlock Punch. lol

Edit:

So, just ran through training mode testing the difference between the killing percentages of u-smash and d-smash. At the center of FD, Mario dies at 168% from d-smash with DI, and 117% from u-smash with DI.

This test seems a bit skewed though because I'm sure the distance from middle to side blastlines is a lot longer than from the ground on FD to the ceiling.

But honestly, I don't think there'd be to much of a difference unless you were at the very edge anyway.

And there's a possibility of comparing smash attacks to be character dependent. For example, I would imagine Dedede to survive our up-smash easier than our d-smash considering we only need to sneeze on him to send him flying horizontally.

tl;dr - Why are we killing with d-smash? Especially when:
1) up-smash is safer
2) up-smash is only 2 frames slower
3) it shieldpokes better
4) it kills at the very least, 30% earlier with no DI.
5) we have set ups into it with dtilt.

=/

lol

 

[MechaWave]

Who's killing with dsmash? It's most likely a coincidence if someone is because of how safe it is.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Down smash is her only smash attack that's guaranteed to make the opponent go flying.
Landing her other smash attacks doesn't guarantee high knock back, or even damage.

Who's killing with dsmash? It's most likely a coincidence if someone is because of how safe it is.

Apparently that guy?

I'm not sure.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's not like it's Warlock Punch. lol

Edit:

So, just ran through training mode testing the difference between the killing percentages of u-smash and d-smash. At the center of FD, Mario dies at 168% from d-smash with DI, and 117% from u-smash with DI.

This test seems a bit skewed though because I'm sure the distance from middle to side blastlines is a lot longer than from the ground on FD to the ceiling.

But honestly, I don't think there'd be to much of a difference unless you were at the very edge anyway.

And there's a possibility of comparing smash attacks to be character dependent. For example, I would imagine Dedede to survive our up-smash easier than our d-smash considering we only need to sneeze on him to send him flying horizontally.

tl;dr - Why are we killing with d-smash? Especially when:
1) up-smash is safer Both are horribly unsafe on block
2) up-smash is only 2 frames slower
3) it shieldpokes better you don't want to usmash on shield
4) it kills at the very least, 30% earlier with no DI.
5) we have set ups into it with dtilt.You can also do dsmash outta dtilt (which is more practically)

=/

lol

I responded to what you said in bold. Then i'll also point out that Usmash can be DI'd and they won't launch. Also I'd like to point out that dsmash in the center of FD is pretty bias considering the move doesn't launch the way usmash does. I suggest you go to the edge of the stage and look at dsmash. Then you have to think about the potential edge hog possibilities (a lot of character won't be able to get back from dsmash depending on DI and if they do make it back LK).

 

[MechaWave]

You can edit the pro about Zelda's transcendent attacks. Change it from 'some' -> 'most'. Courtesy of my own Zelda Hitbox Reference Thread.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@AL: Your opponent isn't going to simply let you d-smash them off the stage. This is 2011. We all know how to DI well.

About your comments before, while they're both unsafe, upsmash is still safer. Again, I never said attack shields with upsmash, but it pokes better than dsmash, and why dsmash out of dtilt at 120% when that's upsmashes killing range?


Also, provided the images are correct, Courier could probably use MechaWave's instead of mine.

 

[Fuujin]

@AL: Your opponent isn't going to simply let you d-smash them off the stage. This is 2011. We all know how to DI well.

About your comments before, while they're both unsafe, upsmash is still safer. Again, I never said attack shields with upsmash, but it pokes better than dsmash, and why dsmash out of dtilt at 120% when that's upsmashes killing range?


Also, provided the images are correct, Courier could probably use MechaWave's instead of mine.

You'd be surprised ow many people get put in bad positions by down smash.
Especially in situations where characters are holding down.
Like Wolf for example, might be trying d smash spam for the kill and if you hit him with down smash he's going to be put in a horrible position.
Up smash is safer if the opponent is above you of course but down smash has nice disjoint and when you hit the opponents shield it doesn't freeze for like 3 seconds giving them plenty of time to counter attack.

why dsmash out of dtilt at 120% when that's upsmashes killing range?

What if youre playing Pit/Marth/Ness/Lucas/etc that is aware they can DI out of up smash?
This is what I mean by D smash being Zelda's most reliable smash attack.
While I don't think any of those characters I've played have known that they can escape it, it still should be taken into account.
This reminds me though, I need to test all the characters that can escape Up smash, I'll go do that now.

 

[Alacion]

Okay, updated the smashes and created the structure for all remaining moves to be discussed. Used Fuujin's ratings except I added one more to Nayru's, one to dash grab, and gave a 5 for Transform (Zelda to Sheik).

I was really at a loss for explaining the smashes, so please!! correct me and suggest more things to add.

Also, where can I get information about throws?