the salamence debate

[Gates]

I already wrote a song with my opinion on this.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276226

 

[The Real Gamer]

Reliable Mence counter = Offensive Trick Room (w/ Heatproof) Bronzong

Bronzong @ Macho Brace
Brave / Heatproof
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def (0 Spe IVs)
~Trick Room
~Gyro Ball
~Earthquake
~Explode

This guy ends DDMence's (as well as most fast sweepers) late game sweeps like a boss. Come in on a predicted DD, which means your opponent will surely Fire Blast you the next turn, which Zong can easily shrug off w/ Heatprpof and then proceed to activate Trick Room. Gyro Ball has a chance to KO it if SR + LO damage is factored in. If you don't like your chances, just explode. The End.

Salamence is far from unbeatable and has a good number of counters. The above is just one of my personal (and unique) favorites.

Keep Salamence in OU.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I don't even think Garchomp should have been banned. There's nothing broken about being overcentralizing. Scizor has remained the most prevalent Pokemon since the release of Platinum, is he Uber?

And before you say anything, I know it's not the same thing. I just couldn't find a better example.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Scizor has remained the most prevalent Pokemon since the release of Platinum, is he Uber?

Rotom, Gyra, Heatran, Zapdos, and Zone say no.

 

[CRASHiC]

And before you say anything, I know it's not the same thing. I just couldn't find a better example.

which is why he was banned.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Just my 2cents. I don't have anything against banning, I just have things against certain ones.

Raikou > BL = okay with that
Staraptor being BL = Okay
Chomp to Ubers = okay


Salamence/Latias : No. Why? It isn't necessary like the others usually are. I don't use EITHER of those Pokemon except for fun, but the concept of unnecessary bannings bothers me.

Oh, also @ Crashic. It may not replace at the same power, but there will always be OU Pokemon better than others.


Though, if Latias/Mence are as bad as you guys say (worse without Latias now?) then I guess maybe it should happen.

I don't know, I'm indifferent. I've never disagreed with their bans, I just never saw a problem with those in OU. But if you're going to do one, you need to do the other, eh?

 

[mood4food77]

the only counter to salamence is cressy, who is f'd in the A by t-tar, scizor, weavile, and a few others

you see, you have to predict right, what if you switch in on a fire blast? you're screwed since he'll EQ next turn

specs latias 2HKO'd the entire metagame

 

[Wave⁂]

the only counter to salamence is cressy, who is f'd in the A by t-tar, scizor, weavile, and a few others

you see, you have to predict right, what if you switch in on a fire blast? you're screwed since he'll EQ next turn

>>implying that counters are needed to take down a Pokémon

I mean, what can counter a Heatran?
Latias? Specs Dragon Pulse 2HKOs, unless you run enough bulk and you don't carry Surf.
Blissey? Get 'sploded on.
Gyarados? 2HKOed by HP Electric, *****
Vaporeon or Suicune? Specs HP Grass 2HKOs

Sure, you can't counter...

Salamence @ Choice Band Specs Scarf Yache Berry Leftovers
Naive Naughty Adamant Modest Timid Jolly / Intimidate
252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 SpDef / 252 Speed
Dragon Dance
Substitute
Roost
Outrage
Dragon Claw
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Fire Blast
Earthquake
Brick Break
Hydro Pump
HP Everything

...but you don't have to. Not everyone (no one) has perfect prediction.

 

[Riddle]

You forgot Stealth Rock Sandstorm Spikes and Toxic Spikes, Wave.

And yeah, counters are really a thing of the past. The metagame really relies on checks now.

 

[mood4food77]

heatran pretty much gets ***** by swampert if it doesn't have HP grass (and most sets don't since earth power, fire blast, and explosion hit everything else harder)
blissey is owned by pretty much any fighting type
infernape is walled by vaporeon unless it carries focus blast and we know how reliable that is
gyarados is ***** by rotom and jolteon fears nothing but the rare EQ
t-tar is beated by bulky ground types

specs latias 2HKO'd at worse everything else in the metagame and outran 85% of it and the ones that it didn't outrun it pretty much OHKO'd anyways, scarftar was used to beat this thing and that's not a good set at all, it also doesn't help that this thing was friggen bulky and carrying trick means she beat blissey

we all know garchomp

salamence is almost the same reasoning as latias except more damaging and less bulky, and much harder to switch into, you're carrying a steel type just for this ****er and even then, unless it's scarftran (who doesn't outspeed salamence after a DD), they're not winning, most teams carry 1 check for pokes, you need to carry at least 2 for salamence

with salamence gone, the metagame becomes more balanced and goes to a fire/water/grass base metagame

 

[yummynbeefy]

heatran pretty much gets ***** by swampert if it doesn't have HP grass (and most sets don't since earth power, fire blast, and explosion hit everything else harder)
blissey is owned by pretty much any fighting type
infernape is walled by vaporeon unless it carries focus blast and we know how reliable that is
gyarados is ***** by rotom and jolteon fears nothing but the rare EQ
t-tar is beated by bulky ground types

specs latias 2HKO'd at worse everything else in the metagame and outran 85% of it and the ones that it didn't outrun it pretty much OHKO'd anyways, scarftar was used to beat this thing and that's not a good set at all, it also doesn't help that this thing was friggen bulky and carrying trick means she beat blissey

we all know garchomp

salamence is almost the same reasoning as latias except more damaging and less bulky, and much harder to switch into, you're carrying a steel type just for this ****er and even then, unless it's scarftran (who doesn't outspeed salamence after a DD), they're not winning, most teams carry 1 check for pokes, you need to carry at least 2 for salamence

with salamence gone, the metagame becomes more balanced and goes to a fire/water/grass base metagame

uncounterable is by no means grounds for a ban look at metaknight in brawl he has no legit counters on any stage except for FD for falco and diddy but did he get banned? nope not by a longshot (this is coming from someone who is pro MK-ban)

alot of pokes have few or no counters

mence may be the best pokemon in OU but it really isnt by that much

 

[Wave⁂]

heatran pretty much gets ***** by swampert if it doesn't have HP grass (and most sets don't since earth power, fire blast, and explosion hit everything else harder)
blissey is owned by pretty much any fighting type
infernape is walled by vaporeon unless it carries focus blast and we know how reliable that is
gyarados is ***** by rotom and jolteon fears nothing but the rare EQ
t-tar is beated by bulky ground types

specs latias 2HKO'd at worse everything else in the metagame and outran 85% of it and the ones that it didn't outrun it pretty much OHKO'd anyways, scarftar was used to beat this thing and that's not a good set at all, it also doesn't help that this thing was friggen bulky and carrying trick means she beat blissey

What the **** are you talking about

 

[Deleted member]

garchomp and latias had no basis to be banned after the platinum changes.

even those aside, salamence absent then relies solely on infernape as the primary wall breaker. subtran is probably a close second. go look to see how those suspect usage statistics played out.

edit: wow how did I miss this travesty of logic-

I don't need to convince you because I don't need to prove anything to you, if you can't realize why, like I and most of the smarter players out there have, then that's your problem. I really just don't feel like turning this into a pointless argument because that's all it'll become. I already know you have your opinion set in your mind and I am not changing it, so why bother?

If you have no intent of basing an argument, stop posting. If we "can't realize why" you have your stance, it has nothing to do with your talent as a player, it is because you refuse to state your case. Also do not assume that the stance of another is a permanent one, you devalue your peers in an unnecessary manner. Do not create barriers to logic when none are necessary.

As for being a "smarter" player, I don't care who you are, I'll trash you at this game. Keep your ego in check.

 

[0RLY]

When Latias was introduced to OU, the usage of several other OUs plummeted. Because Latias brought less diversity to the metagame, Latias was deemed Uber again. The reasoning behind Garchomp is the same but backwards. After his removal, the diversity broadened. Now we're just going to test a metagame without Salamence to see if it's any better than the one we had before, no big deal.

IMO, Salamence is checked by a lot more pokemon than Cress. Every Salamence I see packs some combination of Dragon/Ground/Fire. The best answer is to use Gyarados who takes ~20% from LO Fire Blast and <50% from LO Dragon Claw after Intimidate 4hp/0def. If Mence dances, Dragon Claw always deals <74% meaning Salamence can never beat Gyara even with SR down. You can then annihilate it with Return, or if Mence is at ~50% HP, LO Waterfall is guaranteed to KO. Finally, if Mence Outrages, you can bring in Scizor/Lucario, Dance and win. Or Metagross, Polish and win. Or Empoleon, Agility, take 45-53% from Outrage, Sub, Petaya+Torrent activates: Surf for lethal now that Mence is at max 55% after SR+LO recoil.

 

[Riddle]

As for being a "smarter" player, I don't care who you are, I'll trash you at this game. Keep your ego in check.

I found this incredibly ironic.

 

[0RLY]

Personally, I find that line more like 'comic relief' to his very serious post.

Also, if mence is so much of an issue for you guys, play UU or NU or LC or something. Pokemon is supposed to be fun. That's why I don't play ubers. If one Pokemon is ruining your ideas of fun, it's not too hard to just play somewhere where Mence is already banned. Also, if we ban dragons, eventually, we'll have to ban steels, then OU is just going to look like UU but with higher BSTs.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I'd like to point out that there's plenty of OTHER pokemon with as many absurdly dangerous options that beat they're normal counters and counter strategies just like Salamence, but since no one uses them people see Mence doing it alone and scream "LOLBROKE!"

Take for instance Lucario.

"Oh it's Lucario, i'll switch in my Gengar on the SD, it cant hit me with Extremespeed and I'll OHKO with Focus Blast/Tbolt/w.e"

Lucario used Agility

FUFUFUFUFU

But maybe you're one of those people who think

"Oh, it's lucario. That's fine, i have a bulky Rotom-A I'll be ok"

Lucario used Shadow Ball

FUFUFUFUFU

How do you beat

Lucario@Life Orb Choice Band Choice Specs
Admant/Modest/Timid/Jolly/Rash
252Atk/252SpAtk/252Spe(or if you're cool like me, 252 Spe/28atk/228 SpAtk)
-Swords Dance
-Agility
-Close Combat
-Ice Punch
-Aura Sphere
-Stone Edge
-Crunch
-Shadow Ball
-Extremespeed

 

[The Real Gamer]

Reliable Mence counter = Offensive Trick Room (w/ Heatproof) Bronzong

Bronzong @ Macho Brace
Brave / Heatproof
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def (0 Spe IVs)
~Trick Room
~Gyro Ball
~Earthquake
~Explode

Keep Salamence in OU.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
sb trg sent out Dragonite (lvl 100 Dragonite ?).
Fimble sent out Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Heatran used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Dragonite used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 92% of its health.
The Shuca Berry weakened Earthquake's power!
Dragonite lost 10% of its health.
---
Fimble switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut Dragonite's attack!
Dragonite used Extremespeed.
Salamence lost 29% of its health.
Dragonite lost 10% of its health.
---
sb trg switched in Bronzong (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Pointed stones dug into Bronzong.
Bronzong lost 6% of its health.
Salamence used Dragon Dance.
Salamence's attack was raised.
Salamence's speed was raised.
---
Salamence used Fire Blast.
It's super effective!
Bronzong lost 38% of its health.
Salamence lost 10% of its health.
Bronzong used Trick Room.
Bronzong twisted the dimensions!
---
Bronzong used Gyro Ball.
Salamence lost 61% of its health.
Fimble's Salamence fainted.
Bronzong lost 10% of its health.

Told you ******s it works. I know what the **** I'm talking about.

Keep Salamence in OU.

 

[mood4food77]

cressy again, decently walls lucario
and lucario is revenged killed by anything with mach punch

oh, and lucario is counterable, but it's set dependant
you can counter his physical set with pretty much any decent physical wall and his special set with any decent special wall not snorlax (STAB aura spheres hurt)

salamence is always going mixed, he pretty much is gaurenteed to OHKO anything that is weak to one of his moves, and after 1 DD, he can sweep an entire team

salamence is the only OU poke in which is uncounterable (basically since cressy is **** in OU play nowadays) and requires your team to have 2-3 solid checks to defeat him, meaning your revolving your team on defeating salamence

he is overcentralizing the metagame, even if he is weak to SR, he only needs 1 switch in and 1 set-up turn to completely **** a team, while no, he's not as bad as garchomp or latias (who didn't even need a start-up turn), he's still pretty bad and removing him from standard play will benefit this generation

that's one example of you predicting right, if he EQ'd or FB'd on the turn you switched in, you're ****ed, it's a check, not a counter

 

[The Real Gamer]

Stupid lagging piece ****... Common Smashboards. Ignore this.

 

[The Real Gamer]

cressy again, decently walls lucario
and lucario is revenged killed by anything with mach punch

oh, and lucario is counterable, but it's set dependant
you can counter his physical set with pretty much any decent physical wall and his special set with any decent special wall not snorlax (STAB aura spheres hurt)

salamence is always going mixed, he pretty much is gaurenteed to OHKO anything that is weak to one of his moves, and after 1 DD, he can sweep an entire team

salamence is the only OU poke in which is uncounterable (basically since cressy is **** in OU play nowadays) and requires your team to have 2-3 solid checks to defeat him, meaning your revolving your team on defeating salamence

he is overcentralizing the metagame, even if he is weak to SR, he only needs 1 switch in and 1 set-up turn to completely **** a team, while no, he's not as bad as garchomp or latias (who didn't even need a start-up turn), he's still pretty bad and removing him from standard play will benefit this generation

that's one example of you predicting right, if he EQ'd or FB'd on the turn you switched in, you're ****ed, it's a check, not a counter

I just proved all of this wrong in my above post...

 

[mood4food77]

no

heatproof makes you neutral to fire blast, even though it says weak, read the description of the ability, fire attacks do half damage to you

you switched in on a DD, and then he FB you since no one runs heatproof zong, he was also dumb for not switching out after your trick roomed

it's a check, not a counter

 

[The Real Gamer]

Bronzong is typically known for using Levitate, so it pretty much works every time. And you just said Salamence is pretty much "uncounterable" after a DD. Not true at all. And Zong was just an example.

 

[Riddle]

If he switched out you still countered him =/

BTW, +0 Salamence Earthquake against Bronzong 75.1% - 88.8%
So if it Earthquakes on the switch then you're dead.

 

[mood4food77]

hell, if he earthquakes at all after a DD, he's dead

obviously this is knowing that the bronzong is using heatproof and not levitate
it's a surprise factor yes, and will work, but once learned, it fails pretty much...every time

 

[The Real Gamer]

If he switched out you still countered him =/

BTW, +0 Salamence Earthquake against Bronzong 75.1% - 88.8%
So if it Earthquakes on the switch then you're dead.

Correct it isn't full proof, but it will definitely work if your predicting skills are so so and your opponent is always caught off guard.

And no player with half of a brain will be expecting a Heatproof Bronzong, so they will almost always use Fire Blast against you.

Even in a 1 on 1 situation, Zong wins.

-Salamence uses Fire Blast
-Zong takes the hit and uses Trick Room
-Zong then either cleans it up with GB or Explodes on it depending on how late in the game this matchup takes place.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Any Salamence set is individually counterable as well M4F

If it's Mixed DD with Fire Blast then you just use Hippo(ice fang works well)

If it's Mixed DD with Draco Meteor use a steel type like Skarm

If it's unboosting Mixmence it cant beat Cresselia

If it's Specsmence it loses to blissey

If it's band mence it loses to pretty much anything phsyically defensive or steel type

If it's not using DD it dies to scarf stuff

Also lol at "Lucario can be revenged by mach punch"

I thought revenge wasnt an option, which is why Mence is soooooo broken. Also that relies on Phsical Mixape or non-standard Breloom to be used lol.

 

[mood4food77]

it'll only work once on a player
every other time you try it against the same player, it will fail

you can say, yea but i won't play that player all the time
so what, it just means that it's a one time only thing and you have to change your method so you counter salamence again

oh, last thing about salamence, he's uncounterable because he doesn't have to do anything to defeat his so called counters

standard NP mixape is walled by vaporeon, but he can switch close combat for focus blast and now vaporeon loses

salamence could run crunch for cressy but there's no reason to when scizor and t-tar take care of cressy much better and the fact that cressy is never used
every other check/counter to salamence falls to a +1 DD mence and he doesn't have to change anything about him to do better

basically, not running standard mence sets doesn't do anything to benefit you in the long run

yea...the mach punch thing was dumb...i forgot almost nothing learns the move

 

[Pink Reaper]

m4f you're bad at debate.

"Cressy doesnt count because it gets beat by OTHER STUFF!"

Vappy doesnt count cus it loses to Zapdos, therefore, Mixape is uncounterable.

 

[Pink Reaper]

m4f you're bad at debate.

"Cressy doesnt count because it gets beat by OTHER STUFF!"

Vappy doesnt count cus it loses to Zapdos, therefore, Mixape is uncounterable.

 

[Wave⁂]

I tried debating with him before, it's weird.

m4f, there is no difference between Salamence and Lucario in terms of difficulty of countering and prediction required. You want to Mach Punch? **** that ****, ExtremeSpeed kills Infernape. Wait, you're using a hacked Infernape with Intimidate? **** that ****, Chople Berry ***** your Mach Punch.

Gliscor? Surprise, I'm Scarfed, and I have Ice Punch.
Gengar? Scarfed Crunch this time.
Cresselia? Choice Specs Shadow Ball.
Gyarados? Get Thunderpunch'd.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The thing is no one even uses Physical Mixape anymore because special mixape is far more dangerous to the metagame.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I say we just get rid of any versatile setup sweepers that are too hard to predict.

 

[Shiri]

LOL hang on a sec.

Yup

I wasn't seeing things.

There are really more than seventy posts about this.

You guys are actually discussing this, LOL. This is ridiculous.

 

[Pink Reaper]

ummmmm, k?

Thanks for the spam Shiri, really, that was something the PC needed more of.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I don't understand what is ridiculous about PokeCenter members discussing something happening to a metagame.

 

[yummynbeefy]

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2287

for all the anti-ban people

 

[yummynbeefy]

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2287

for all the anti-ban people

 

[Riddle]

LOL hang on a sec.

Yup

I wasn't seeing things.

There are really more than seventy posts about this.

You guys are actually discussing this, LOL. This is ridiculous.

Don't be a troll yannick =/.

We are having a legitimate discussion and there is no reason for you to come in here and contribute nothing.

 

[CRASHiC]

If Salamence is banned I'm using Porygon-Z. With all the fighting pokemon running around, steels are going to drop a bit in usage.