The ROB Matchup Thread

[SxK]

Let's discuss the Marth matchup.
If we haven't already.

Too lazy to check the thread.

 

[Heartstring]

marth matchup?
if hes approaching, ftilt. if he isnt approaching, projectiles, if hes in your bubble, dtilt and jab
space to hell with b-air and nair to get the kill

obviously more to it than that, thats me putting it at the most basic level though, this is definetely 50:50.

 

[Zwarm]

You need to be really smart to beat him offstage, since he's very good down there, but I still think we can win an offstage battle with our superior recovery. Also what G-P said.

 

[SxK]

Sounds good, and seems legit.
I just have the most unnatural problem with facing Marth.
50-50 for sure though.

 

[Heartstring]

marth is jsut one of those characters that requires extreme spacing to beat
luckily im an ike main first and foremost, spacing is the name of my game. makes marth with rob a lot easier than it should be
infact marth is probably one of my best personal matchups, along with olimar

 

[CT Chia]

ftilt beats his fair approach
fsmash beats his nair approach
fair oos beats most air attacks on shield
ftilt generally stops ground approaches
marth is projectile bait off stage

it's even atm but once the metagames develop (read: marth and rob are used more) i can see it being in rob's favor

 

[Heartstring]

he does have quite an easy time keeping us from landing though, its probably the main reason its not our favour already (or so thats what i believe, theres also the fact he k.o's us pretty fast, while for us to land a ko on him will be difficult)

 

[ccst]

I'm so bad at the ROB ditto.

I love the R.O.B. ditto as well as the Olimar MU. One of my most loved MUs, despite the fact that I don't have much experience.

Now the Meta Knight, King Dedede and Zero Suit Samus MUs are pure agony. D=

Good stuff Apple Jelly. Aggro R.O.B. > camping R.O.B.. That's a fact.

The Marth MU is 45:55 our disadvantage IMO. We just can't land nor camp. Marth is "easy" to gimp but hard to kill, so yeah... His favour. =/

And lastly: Meta Knight might get banned because 3 of 4 people want him banned. How do you think this will affect R.O.B. in tournaments and his MG?

 

[Zwarm]

Landing isn't that hard against anyone (except MK) if you can wavebounce gyro cancel consistently. Mix it up, it's not like we only have one type of wavebounce like Snake does. If you feel you can't land at a certain time, wavebounce up B and move to a better spot.

MK being banned will only move ROB up. Besides MK, he goes pretty even/doesn't lose that bad to most of the top tier characters. Dedede is the exception, but I can't see his use going up that much with all the Diddys and Falcos that will be running around.

 

[M@v]

Falco boards discussing rob right now if your interested.


...is 45:55 an up to date ratio for you guys?

 

[Zwarm]

I'm guessing (hoping) that's in Falco's favor, correct? If so, I can agree to that.

 

[SxK]

Falco ROB is pretty bad for us IMO.

We are waaaay to slow on the ground to approach and with the constant Laser spam, its hard for us to get in his face. And when we do, phantasm away. Rinse and repeat. This MU requires a lot of patience and well timed powershields. And, we get shield poked hard by most of his multi hit stuff like Nair, and occasionally Jabs. While he cant D-Throw Spike us, everything else will stop us.
60-40 Falco

 

[Zwarm]

I've recently discovered this MU isn't nearly as bad as it used to be. Try playing Peach vs Falco and see what I mean about a bad MU. It's all about scaring the Falco into doing what you want him to do. Run at him, know he's gonna phantasm away, then RAR bair him or drop back nair if you read him hard enough. Laser spam doesn't hurt us that bad because he can't kill us from that far away, so let him approach us, we outrange him when he does. It's pretty easy to get him offstage as well, and we pretty much destroy him offstage. One bair while he's phantasming, and it's pretty much done. The long lasting hitbox helps us land it easier. Also if you need to approach during laser spam, we can just jump over them, I usually jump at them backwards ready to bair. This also helps to scare them into phantasming early, which we can just bair to reverse our direction and catch him when he lands.

I agree with 55:45 in Falco's favor.

 

[Drake12]

I would argue that it is only 55:45 on the high high level of the competition, when the ROB knows the MU very well.
Most ROBs arent used to the projectile spam seeing as ROBs don't have many competitiors in the camping game. Our gyro is basically nullified by his reflector, causing a very specific playstle by the ROB.
Unless you are fully comfortable, and know exactly what your doing from experience I would argue 60:40.

That being said, I am one of those guys that struggles with this MU.

 

[Zwarm]

When discussing MUs, we're supposed to assume both players are at a top level of play, know the MU, and are comfortable with all playstyles of their character. So even though you said you personally struggle with the MU, your MU ratio should still be 55:45 going off what you said.

 

[Heartstring]

Landing isn't that hard against anyone (except MK) if you can wavebounce gyro cancel consistently. Mix it up, it's not like we only have one type of wavebounce like Snake does. If you feel you can't land at a certain time, wavebounce up B and move to a better spot.

MK being banned will only move ROB up. Besides MK, he goes pretty even/doesn't lose that bad to most of the top tier characters. Dedede is the exception, but I can't see his use going up that much with all the Diddys and Falcos that will be running around.

yeah its true i spose, im not great at wavebouncing, but your typical top notch can player do it on the fly.
even so, he is pretty good at keeping people under pressure

When discussing MUs, we're supposed to assume both players are at a top level of play, know the MU, and are comfortable with all playstyles of their character. So even though you said you personally struggle with the MU, your MU ratio should still be 55:45 going off what you said.

oh hi five, you have no idea how many times i have to say that to people
and yeah, 45:55. its not all that bad of a matchup.

 

[Drake12]

I wouldn't fully agree with that, if that we true then esam (the best pikachu) would have the MK/Pika MU 50-50, when it is not because he is the top level of pikachu. Your average pikachu has a bit more trouble, and the matchup therefore is 55-45.
Thats just an example. It's the same with peach/marth. Thats even only on the top top level, like best of the best.

 

[Zwarm]

Top level MKs beat Pikas, even Esam. That's just his personal opinion on the MU.

Peach/Marth is not even, even at top levels, trust me.

 

[Drake12]

Right, he feels like its even because he is a top player, when for the general Pika's it isn't even.
All I'm saying is it's the same for falco/ROB. There are obviously different skill level players for every character, even if you go to tournaments. I feel like the top skilled ROB's with the knowledge and everything have it differently then your average ROB.

 

[SxK]

Top level MKs beat Pikas, even Esam. That's just his personal opinion on the MU.

Peach/Marth is not even, even at top levels, trust me.

Yeah, Peach/Marth is pretty bad IRL and even at the top level of play. Spacing out the wazoo. And Falco/ROB is just blatantly difficult. You forget how high his jumps are so jumping over them isn't quite so easy. Granted offstage, we win hands down. But, racking up damage and getting him offstage is just immensely difficult.

 

[M@v]

This mu is still bad for rob even at the top levels. I've played pretty much every "top" rob except for stingers holy(played his mk) and tv(who plays more mk nowadays anyway right?)

The rob that gave me the most trouble was tommy, and even then we were going even(we played like an hour straight of friendlies at mlg it was awesome <3)

Never lost to rob in tourney, and the only rob I've lost to in mms was chibo, in 2 $1 mms.
I'm still up on him 3 bucks though from a $5 mm win =P

If i'm having that much success and I'm at the ,lets call it "good" level, I don't want to know how well top level falco's will do at this mu.

I would think bloodcross would be really good at this mu too since he's fairly close to Teevee.

 

[Drake12]

So are you arguing 55-45 or 60-40?

The biggest factor to me is Robs gyro being pretty useless in his on stage game.
What can ya do if you even get the chance to hold the gyro?
Any sort of glidetoss could easily be reflected, if we are infront of falco, if we above falco he can easily phantasm to safety. Any disagreements that, first off, the gyro is almost useless onstage if the falco isn't an idiot?
His spacing if done properly is simple a really heavy problem for us. Anyone know what actual % falco can chaingrab til?

 

[Zwarm]

Right, he feels like its even because he is a top player, when for the general Pika's it isn't even.
All I'm saying is it's the same for falco/ROB. There are obviously different skill level players for every character, even if you go to tournaments. I feel like the top skilled ROB's with the knowledge and everything have it differently then your average ROB.

I can't imagine him thinking it's 50:50 against M2K/Ally/Anti/other top level MKs. And if he does, he's wrong.

Point is, when discussing MUs, you're supposed to think of it as two top level players. Don't think of actual top players, think hypothetical top players, and they know the MU perfectly, their character and every playstyle perfectly, and they always play at the top of their game. There is no actual person like that out there for any character, so that's why you have to be hypothetical about it. When discussing MU ratios, people's names should not be brought into it, even if they are actual top level players.

I hope that makes sense. At least, that's how I've always thought about MUs when discussing them.

Yeah, Peach/Marth is pretty bad IRL and even at the top level of play. Spacing out the wazoo. And Falco/ROB is just blatantly difficult. You forget how high his jumps are so jumping over them isn't quite so easy. Granted offstage, we win hands down. But, racking up damage and getting him offstage is just immensely difficult.

You can jump over his SHDL pretty easily. If he full hop lasers, they're more spread out in the air and are easier to avoid. Racking damage isn't too difficult, our laser is still a viable option as long as you aim it where you won't get hit if it gets reflected.

So are you arguing 55-45 or 60-40?

The biggest factor to me is Robs gyro being pretty useless in his on stage game.
What can ya do if you even get the chance to hold the gyro?
Any sort of glidetoss could easily be reflected, if we are infront of falco, if we above falco he can easily phantasm to safety. Any disagreements that, first off, the gyro is almost useless onstage if the falco isn't an idiot?
His spacing if done properly is simple a really heavy problem for us. Anyone know what actual % falco can chaingrab til?

Gyro is only really useful when the Falco is offstage, though there are times you can throw it down and grab it onstage. It's not really a good idea to leave it laying around much, because Falco can just reflect it and pick it up. If he gets a hold of it, he's gonna laser camp you. But this shouldn't be a huge deal, since you shouldn't be using gyro much anyway. I really like leaving the gyro onstage near the edge and ROB on the ledge as their trying to recover. It's not a very easy setup because it's time consuming, but I tend to throw a gyro right to the edge of the stage when I get most characters offstage anyway. It's just become a habit to me.

Also never glidetoss toward the Falco to approach, that's just asking for a reflector. Throw it up, or if you're far enough away, down. If you throw it down too close, he can still reflect it, and it will hit you. Also never shoot lasers directly at him, or he can reflect it back at you. If he's gonna reflect it, at least don't aim it so it doesn't hit you.

I don't know the actual percent, but I'm pretty sure he can only get one or two regrabs on us at 0%, and it's pretty strict timing considering how easy his CG usually is.

 

[Heartstring]

So are you arguing 55-45 or 60-40?

The biggest factor to me is Robs gyro being pretty useless in his on stage game.
What can ya do if you even get the chance to hold the gyro?
Any sort of glidetoss could easily be reflected, if we are infront of falco, if we above falco he can easily phantasm to safety. Any disagreements that, first off, the gyro is almost useless onstage if the falco isn't an idiot?
His spacing if done properly is simple a really heavy problem for us. Anyone know what actual % falco can chaingrab til?

you dont have to throw the gyro at him for it to be useful. i personally find it to be better if i throw it up while glide tossing towards them when against the spacies and other characters with great reflectors

 

[M@v]

So are you arguing 55-45 or 60-40?

The biggest factor to me is Robs gyro being pretty useless in his on stage game.
What can ya do if you even get the chance to hold the gyro?
Any sort of glidetoss could easily be reflected, if we are infront of falco, if we above falco he can easily phantasm to safety. Any disagreements that, first off, the gyro is almost useless onstage if the falco isn't an idiot?
His spacing if done properly is simple a really heavy problem for us. Anyone know what actual % falco can chaingrab til?

Tbh I feel its more 65:35.

I feel the ONLY time Rob can even touch falco is offstage. And even then its not easy since falco can react quickly with phantasm before rob has time to setup an edgeguard. Also Falco can just go to the ledge with upb or midair jump if he see's rob waiting for a phantasm.

 

[Drake12]

Is it not intended for the majourity of Robs against the majourity of falco's? Is it not the general population of Robs against the general populations. Heck, Mike Haze has made the marth MK matchup look very very good. If we're talking top level players and look at Mike Haze then it should be 0 instead of -1 for the marths. But Mike Haze is not your general Marth.

Arguing on this doesn't change anything, I believe it should just be 60-40 after thinking it over.
I see what your saying, but I gotta say that I don't see it being 55-45. I don't believe that the MU should be just as bad as pikachu, lucario or TL which are all 55-45.
Falco gives Robs much more trouble then they all do IMO.

 

[ccst]

Agreeing with Drake12 (especially the last sentences) and M@v here. The Falco vs. R.O.B. is 35:65 (R.O.B.'s disadvantage). Falco pretty much destroys our ground game (for the most his lasers). He can chaingrab us to 42 % IIRC. I'm too tired to actually discuss this, since learning the MU makes so much more sense than actually discussing it theoretically...

Oh and just because people beat each other in dittos it doesn't mean that they're better. I think Chibo has more MU experience against Meta Knight than Apple Jelly has. Just wanted to say that.

And I think that if Meta Knight gets banned R.O.B. won't rise as much as people think. I think characters like King Dedede, Pit and Snake (again) will rise more, seeing that there will be more King Dededes and Falcos...

 

[Heartstring]

its bad. but its not that bad.
40:60 at most, hell if ike has it as 60-40 falco's favour i think its safe to say ours isnt worse

 

[SxK]

Agreeing with Drake12 (especially the last sentences) and M@v here. The Falco vs. R.O.B. is 35:65 (R.O.B.'s disadvantage). Falco pretty much destroys our ground game (for the most his lasers). He can chaingrab us to 42 % IIRC. I'm too tired to actually discuss this, since learning the MU makes so much more sense than actually discussing it theoretically...

Oh and just because people beat each other in dittos it doesn't mean that they're better. I think Chibo has more MU experience against Meta Knight than Apple Jelly has. Just wanted to say that.

And I think that if Meta Knight gets banned R.O.B. won't rise as much as people think. I think characters like King Dedede, Pit and Snake (again) will rise more, seeing that there will be more King Dededes and Falcos...

I duuno who said I was better than Chibo lol
Of course he's a better ROB, with MUCH more experience than I have even come close to experiencing. But, I do have my fair share of MU practice, spare Diddy Kong and Falco

 

[Drake12]

Idk, I feel 65-35 may be pushing it. I could be persuaded into thinking that though, it's not out of the question for me. 60-40 for sure IMO, 65-35 could be more reasonable, but...hmm...62.5-57.5? XD
Whatever floats your boat I guess. I'm feeling 60-40, but I guess I agree with 65-35.

All that doesn't make much sense, but whatevs :/

I'd disagree, Rob is quite potent against many characters, juts blows against the single most important one (MK)
He'd only have a few hard counters like DDD, falco and olimar. Any other hard counter isn't very common, heck even DDD isn't that populated from what I've seen. I could see him rising around to around lucario, i'm trying to sound unbiased with my thoughts.

 

[TeeVee]

rob vs falco isnt bad at all, you guys gotta learn the matchup lol imo its 55 - 45 falco but most other robs think its 60 - 40 so w/e

 

[Drake12]

You really believe that Rob falco is no worse and on par with wario, TL and lucario?
You can say that you think that Rob has no harder of a time with falco then he does those other three characters?

Mu's where Rob needs to approach I think is pretty bad. heck, look at olimars MU with Rob.

The fact of the matter is gyro is not nearly as useful (which is a powerful tool for Rob),
laser spam is very very challenging.
Rob can't close that gap very well at all, partially because of his slow horizontal movement.
Very easy for falco to phantasm to safety onstage.

Sure, we're very good at gimping and such, but thats not enough to make this MU 55-45.

 

[Zwarm]

ROB needs to approach in every MU. There's no MU where he can just sit back and camp. Except IC's. Run away from them.

I don't want to go over this again, I already explained how I feel about all of those things you mentioned. Buuuut, gyro isn't the only option ROB has, he has ranged attacks and laser too. Shield or jump over lasers. Mindgame them into early phantasms to close the gap easier. Predict phantasms on stage, they're very telegraphed. Beat them with nair/bair.

 

[Drake12]

Rob needs to approach in every MU?? I don't approach a snake, I camp with lasers and gyro. Same with many MU's. Marth or DK pressure me, I don't pressure them. I guess we gotta disagree on this one.

I stay where I stand and don't believe the MU is 55-45 which would make it just as bad as TL or lucario.
I believe that it's 60-40 at best.

 

[TeeVee]

tl is harder than falco imo

 

[Heartstring]

i think tl is equal with falco, lucario is probablt 45-55. maybe 50-50. wario is a special case because of how strange he is. i dont really know wha to rate that matchup cause i alwaqys go ike for it

 

[SxK]

Wario ROB is 55-45 in his favor. His aerial mobility is just too much for us to handle. We have no grab releases, however our offstage presence (in front or behind Wario) is too much for him to handle. Gimps are a possibility, but at high level play its not really an option.
U-Air hits us really hard at low percents. Realllly hard. He can jump around our lasers all day, and he can just as easily avoid the gyro. Note* stay on the ground lol.
F-Tilt F-Tilt F-Tilt. He has nothing to out range us on the ground. Just space with that and D-Tilt and Wario has a hard time getting in on us.
If he gets in our face, the Waft and F-Smash are hard to beat, due to our bad shield, and super armor respectively. Then, coupled with AWFUL momentum cancelling, we die quick.
Avoid D-Air because it combos well with his other stuff (grab, bite, D-air again) and it pokes really well.
People I've played and/or beaten- Seibrik, Masky, Sax. That and Masky lives in my town lol

Lucario is 60-40
Toon Link is 60-40
(Will cover later)

 

[TeeVee]

lol at lucario being harder than wario

 

[CT Chia]

Anyone in the BBR Matchup Panel go post in there

 

[SxK]

Lucario juggles us really hard, f-air all day racks up damage scary fast. Utilt Vs fair never works out for us. Dair is amazing in this matchup against us because of our terrible shield and has insane knockback. Keep him away with f-tilt and space with back air as best you can. His aura spheres do slot of work due to their slow air speed coupled with our slow air speed, and mid/late game their size can be rather scary. Even if you have the lead, it means nothing lol