The R.O.B. Matchup Thread
3. Matchup Chart
4. Matchup Analysis
These boards need some matchup discussions. Therefore, I made this thread and will be updating it. All the discussions will be done in here, and we will be following The Official Brawl Back Room Tier List v4 order. We will only finish a discussion with enough information. So, we can stay more than one week discussing one character, or less. Have fun.
From Praxis' guide to matchup ratios:
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup. However, the other character does have responses him, and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.
One character has options that shut down the other's options. Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable, but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.
Anything past 70-30
Pretty much unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.
3. Matchup Chart
Image by the Brazilian designer called Jãojão
Very big disadvantage: 70-30+
Big disadvantage: 65-35
Small disadvantage: 55-45
Small advantage: 55-45
Big advantage: 65-35
Very big advantage: 70-30+
4. Matchup Analysis
ROB 35-65 Meta Knight
ROB 35-65 Meta Knight
[collapse=Summary]This matchup is hard. Meta Knight wins in the air, on the ground and off stage. He can easily gimp ROB, and that's very bad. Meta Knight also has some great ploys to juggle him, such as multiple Uairs, Dthrow(> Fair/Tornado), Ftilt and Tornado-ing. Learning how to avoid the latter is very important:
FSmash from the side. Laser from wherever you can hit it. Gyro with half charge. NAir from above (only the first and last parts of the hitbox). FAir from -just- above and to the side of the nado (Aka you just SDI'd out). BAir in a similar situation as FAir.
Really though, the only way to hit a smart MK in nado is to let it hit you then SDI and F/N/BAir.
A smart MK will nado too close for you to reaction laser/gyro/fsmash and won't let anyone get above the center of the tornado if it's the best position for that character to knock the MK out of his tornado (like it is for us, well...slightly to the side of the center, but yeah). That leaves us with BAir, NAir, and FAir from above.
FAir: Risky, hard to hit, least damage of the three.
NAir: Risky, hard to hit space since it has a lot of start-up lag and MK can move so you hit the side of the top (and thus get pulled in) or just rise to hit you before the hitbox comes out/while the hitbox isn't at the bottom of ROB.
BAir: Slightly better version of FAir as far as it's usage against nado is concerned.
Sooooo, you'rre looking at NAir, but even that isn't too good. I prolly missed some situational/silly ones, but that's what I got for you.
ROB needs to camp well. Meta Knight will approach, obviously, and it isn't easy to avoid his approaching attemps because he has great moves for so, such as Fair, Dash Attack and Tornado. What you need to do is use either angled Ftilts, or Bair. You won't get punished if you use the latter correctly. Killing is also a problem. Even Meta Knight being light, it's difficult because ROB isn't good at killing and Meta Knight has a great momentum canceling with Uair.
Grabs are really important. Dthrow can be followed by Uair. F/Bthow are useful to throw Meta Knight far from you. They can be followed by a laser, too. Learn how to punish Glide Attack. It has the same priority of ROB's Bair and Usmash, and it can be shielded, then use something OoS like Ftilt, Dsmash and Shield Grab. If you have a gyro in hands, Glide Toss away and throw it at Meta Kngih.
Up B is also a move that you should learn how to avoid:
On the ground we can't do anything to beat MK's Up B as it has invencibility frames. So, Power Shielding or even Spot dodging is the solution, but if MK could hit you, just try to skip from the Glide Attack that will probably follow it. If you get the PS or the Spot dodge, you can Jump rising an Uair, which will punish the Up B.
When he tries to hit you in the air you have three options:
A) Air Dodge
B) Perfect timming using Nair
C) Get hit
You're big, and will probably get hit by the Up B, but if not, after AD, I see Fast Falling > Shield as the best option, then try a Shield Grab if possible MK. If not, Ftilt OoS because its good range might punish him.
Don't forget ROB is a big target, and it isn't difficult to avoid only the Up B, but also most Meta Knight's moves, which helps him when juggling ROB. There's also something that I find worth posting: the frame data. Click here
Some robots posted interesting stuff on this thread, and as their posts were too long, quoting them wouldn't be the best idea. So, I'll just list them below:
Tin Man's post
Fishy/Darth Waffles' post
You can find some good information about recoverying, edge guarding, how to play on certain ranges, etc. on those posts listed above.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to take him to]Best neutral stage is Battlefield. It sounds weird, but Battlefield's platforms help ROB when recoverying and avoiding juggles. Besides, they also allow him to land his U-x moves(Utilt/Usmash/Uair) easier.
platforms mean he has less room to chase you with (if he lands on a platform while trying to chase you, he has to deal with landing lag which while like 3 frames helps more then you'd think) which means that the mere presence of platforms means that there's less space MK can actually cover while trying to chase you while falling... MK isn't marth...he doesnt cover platforms with aerial mobility and large sweeping hitboxes, he just jumps around a lot and uairs where he thinks your gonna fall onto or tornados below you, which is a lot less dangerous...it's actually easier to get grounded against mk on bf then on final where he can just...watch you as you fall then be gay as hell and uair and cover your airdodge with tornado and piss you off.
and thats what makes the matchup, the fact ROB has no way to come back down :/ so anywhere that makes it easier = you want to be there
And best counterpick is Castle Siege. ROB can space pretty well by using Ftilt on the first transformation. The two platforms also help ROB landing Usmash, that has more knock back than Fsmash. Camp on the second transformation due to the fact of the laser going though the statues. ROB can also kill earlier from the side on this transformation with Bthow, Fsmash and Bair. And finally... camp on the third transformation, as usual.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to avoid]You should avoid Final Destination. Even having much space to camp, Meta Knight can keep you in the air very easy, racking up some good damage. Smashville isn't very good, either. There isn't much space and Meta Knight can scroog.
The main counterpick stages to avoid are Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Cruise. Meta Knight's air game is amazing, and he can make such a good use of this great advantage on Rainbow Cruise and Delfino Plaza. He can also shark on the latter by coming from the bottom rising Uairs/Tornado or using the Shuttle Loop.[/collapse]
ROB 45-55 Snake
ROB 45-55 Snake
[collapse=Summary]The snake matchup isn't as good as it used to be. ROB's projectiles can be easily power shielded, and Snake has good out of shield options, making him able to approach safely, and since he is close to ROB, things turn more difficult. ROB still needs to camp though. The laser can explode the granades.
Snake has attacks with amazing hitboxes and ROB is a big target. He can also tech chase really well. ROB doesn't kill earlier, and Snake doesn't die ealier, either. Besides, he has amazing kill options.
So, shouldn't Snake be a hard ROB counter? If ROB didn't have an amazing off stage game, yes. And that's exactly the point. ROB should go off stage and rack up some good damage. But firstly you should try to camp, when Snake approaches, then go off stage.
Another thing ROB should try to do is juggling. It can also build up damage. And just as a side note, ROB can stop the granade's way by using either Gyro, Ftilt, or Bair.Once hes off the stage thats your best opportunity to rack up damage, bait the airdoge out of his UpB and punish, don't get distracted by trying to spike him, just keep landing Fairs and knocking him out of his UpB.
Once again, read some amazing posts:
Tin Man's post
[collapse=Stages to take him to]Final Destination is the best neutral because ROB has enough space to camp and Snake cannot avoid ROB's juggles well. Among the counter pick stages, I would say Frigate Orpheon is the best, even with that low ceiling that makes Snake kill earlier than usual, but he can't handle ROB camping the moving platforms on the flip side of the stage. Besides, ROB's off stage game is pretty awesome.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to avoid]You should avoid Battlefield because Snake can have a great stage control if he knows how to use the platforms, which also help him when trying to avoid ROB's juggling attemps. You should also avoid Halberd because of the same reasons said for Battlefield plus the low ceiling.[/collapse]
ROB 55-45 Diddy Kong
ROB 55-45 Diddy Kong
[collapse=Summary]ROB is really good when he has the control of the bananas. His glide toss is amazing and when Diddy trips, he can get a free Fsmash. So, abuse it! ROB's off stage game is also something that should be abused. He can gimp Diddy well due to his predictable recovery.
The main problem in this matchup is ROB's size. Diddy can make some insane combos resulting in a good amount of damage racked. Diddy most times use Utilt after Dash Attacking(he can also use no Dash Attack and simply Uthrow). This isn't good at all as ROB will be above him, which is the place he should never be.
Diddy can't have the control of the two bananas, try to avoid this. And killing isn't much of a problem since Diddy can't kill well either and ROB can still gimp.
I recommend you to read the following:
Tin Man's post
ROB's Banana Drible(ChiboSempai's thread)
Anoher thread of ChiboSempai
They all go in more details and are worth reading. There is just something else I want say that is what I do at the beginning of matches against Diddy Kong. You know, they all start pulling a banana. I like to run and z-catch it before him instead of start the match with laser or gyro.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to take him to]Frigate Orpheon is always your friend. Diddy can be gimped easier than usual because of the weird ledge of this stage, and ROB can kill him with Usmash easier too due to the low ceiling and the platforms.
I would say Battlefield is a great choice among starters because sometimes the platforms aren't good friends of Diddy's banana game, and they can also help ROB avoiding juggles. Lylat is also very good. The irregular ground is as bad as Battlefield's platforms to Diddy Kong. Three platforms, low ceiling and irregular ground: that's all ROB wants.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to avoid]Final Destination is the one you should strike whenever you can. Diddy is very skillful with the bananas, and there is no platform for ROB to avoid juggles.[/collapse]
ROB 45-55 Falco
ROB 45-55 Falco
[collapse=Summary]ROB loses one of his best ploys against many characters: the camping game. Falco's lasers are faster than ROB's neutral and down B. His blasters stop the gyro's way, but if it is not used, Falco still has the reflector to avoid it. You will really not want to camp. So, what you need to do is approach, but you also need to know how to approach. From the "How to Deal With Specific Moves" thread...
Our reflector is just too slow to avoid Falco's blasters. I approach with Dash > Shield. Airdodge could be very predicted. The blasters are really fast and if we airdodge the first one, we may get hit by the second. Approaching with Dash > Shield isn't bad, we just need to pay attention as Falco may mix up and grab us. So, stay at the correct range and Ftilt out of shield when you have time for so.
ROB has another ploy that works against many characters, and Falco is included: the off stage game. Falco's recovery isn't among the best ones in the game. His up B can be well punished, just like the side B. But for the latter, you need to now a thing or two. If you are grabbing the ledge, get out of it and use Bair. If you are on the stage, you can either Fsmash, Dsmash, or use something out of shield(like shield grab). For the up B, you only need to grab the ledge. If Falco crosses it, jump using an aerial or a ledge attack.
Once you are close to Falco and with 40%+, you should try take him off stage. Use F/Bthrow, followed by multiple Fairs. If you are not, Falco will try to grab you. And just for the record, I think you should be aware of T0MMY's statement:
Mr. Eric gave me some really good advice. When Falco leads into a Grab with a Jab, you can D-Smash between the Jab and Grab. He said it worked at lower percentages, but I SDI'd down and got it to work at 100%
The following links are some posts that are worth reading, in my opinion:
Tin Man's post
[collapse=Stages to take him to]Smashville sounds like a good starter option as it has a small size, not giving Falco enough space to camp well, but Halberd is better if it is among the neutrals list. If it it is not, then it turns into a great counterpick option. The ledge makes him phantasm early, the dip makes it easier to dodge lasers and you can also plank and shark your lasers through the stage(finally a way to camp Falco). Brinstar is also a good counterpick, but Falco players usually have a back up character when they are counterpicked to it.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to avoid]Final Destination. Enough said.[/collapse]
ROB 60-40 Ice Climbers
ROB 60-40 Ice Climbers
[collapse=Summary]ROB'a Dsmash and Nair can separate the Ice Climbers, which is great because once they are separated, the matchup becomes easier, because ROB can take either Nana or Popo off stage with multiple Fairs and gimp. If he gimps Nana, all you need to do is camp. It's fun to see players killing themselves when Nana is gone because Popo can't do anything(if you see he is still giving trouble, just gimp him, it's so easy).
In fact, all you need to do todo the match is camp. Avoid their approches with Ftilt, Fsmash, or Fair. They usually hit one of the Ice Climbers. However, in case they approach, space Nair correctly and do what was said in the first paragraph. Dsmash also works.
Keep the gyro on the field, it stops their ice block camping and basically ruins their approach since you can camp lasers, F-tilts, and Fairs behind it, and whenever they Blizzard, laser them.
When you f-tilt them and it hits one but not the other its perfect, run forward and grab or D-smash the other, then follow nana and gimp her, always go for nana shes really easy to predict and Popo will make a mad dash to save her.
When they get too close D-smash will grape them due to their separate shield timings, then chase nana. Your other option when they get close is to run forward and grab them and F/B-throw but NEVER U/D-throw when they're together for obvious reasons.
Retreating F-airs are always safe if you're gyro isnt set up.
ROB's biggest problem, again, is his size. The Ice Climbers can make Down B walls by desynching, but they will probably have some problems when chaingrabbing ROB. You might want to read the following quote:
[/collapse]Like I said earlier, ICs should never grab ROB because if you're on the ground when they're close, urdoinitwrong. DSmash may be awesome at separating them, but NAir is just as awesome and they can't grab you out of the air.
[collapse=Stages to take them to]Final Destination is the best neutral due to its size, giving ROB possibilities to camp well. Among counterpicks, I would say Frigate Orpheon is the better choice because gimps turn easier to do.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to avoid]You should avoid stages with platforms like Battlefield. If you try to camp, you blindspots will be very open.[/collapse]
ROB 50-50 Marth
ROB 50-50 Marth
[collapse=Summary]ROB is a big target, and Marth's Fair, Nair and Side B are such a pain. He can be shield grabbed between the third and fourth hits of the latter though. Marth's Uair and Utilt are also great for him because they can lead into juggles, bulding up some damage. However, ROB does have a decent response. His WBGC(Wave Bounce Gyro Cancel) can help when avoiding juggles. This thread may be helpful somehow.
Camping is a very useful ROB ploy, as usual. If Marth tries to approach with Fair, use Ftilt angled up because that's the only way ROB can outrange it. If he approaches by using something else, just pay close attention and try to punish him with something out of shield, but he may mix up and try to grab you. So, you need to be fast.
ROB is more at home versus Marth when he's onstage than offstage. The only two of our aerials that have even a slight chance against a Marth are Nair and Fair, but if you're trying to get back safely, they're probably staled by then. To even get your aerials to work, you've got to space them just right, and even then, pretty much all Marth mains are **** when it comes to spacing. They'll just counterspace.
Your best bet to have any chance of winning this matchup is just stay onstage, and don't use your aerials too much. Take your time racking up damage. You could even be super homo and try to time them out. But just tilt a lot and camp. Lotsa low ftilts to poke, and this will be your main damage racker, and then throw in a dtilt to refresh them. And pummel too.
So basically my advice is just take your time getting the Marth to KO percents, then use your fresh aerials/whatever you want to use. Your aerials being fresh will also be a bit of a help when you're offstage getting *****.
When close to Marth, use grabs(mainly F/Bthrow) and tilts(mainly D/Ftilt), trying to be far from him, then just start camping again. Going off stage isn't a bad idea, but it's much more safer to stay on it. In case you go there, use Fairs and try to take Marth as far as possible from the ledge. Then, grab it. If you think he may recover, get out of it and use Bair as an edgeguard option. And just for the record, click here to be directed to Raziek's post. It's pretty interesting.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to take him to]Final Destination is the best choice as a starter due to the enough space to camp, and Frigate Orpheon as a counterpick due to the the possibility to gimp easier.[/collapse]
[collapse=Stages to avoid]Stages with platforms aren't very nice. They can help you avoidind juggles, but they can also help Marth starting juggling you. Furthermore, Marth's aerials(mainly Fair) can cover most parts of the platforms due to their range. Battlefield and Brinstar are examples. Marth can kill ealier than usual on the latter using Usmash when ROB is above one of the two bottom platforms. Its ceiling is pretty low.[/collapse]
- King Dedede