Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Anomilus]

Ok all things considered you guys do have a persuasive argument as to why and how Ridley should be included. My question is, if he was a character who towered a bit above that of the larger characters, how would you balance him? Would he have sweet spots on moves? Would his attacks be splash damage oriented? How heavy would he be? Would he have a lot of cool down frames on his attacks? What moves will have Super Armor?Etc.

I'll just throw some things out there. I do have that moveset I posted on Dec. 22, but it's a very focused moveset that may or may not appease your tastes.

Firstly, I'm still very much for all-fours Ridley. That allows him to technically tower a bit above the larger characters while on two feet. On all fours he's at Bowser's height.

To make things as natural as possible, Ridley would move on all-fours kind of like a crocodile, if you can picture that. When running he does the full-on left-to-right rocking, his tail waving along. I think that would actually look pretty intimidating while still moving characteristically slow due to being a large character who prefers the air. I know others tend to like the idea of Ridley hovering off the ground, but I believe that would require a smaller frame. Charizard can get away with it somewhat while running. I don't see working AND looking good for Ridley.

Now the tricky part of this is Ridley sidestepping and roll dodging. I think these are the only instances where Ridley would use any sort of hovering. When performing a roll dodge, I can imagine Ridley quickly thrusting himself with a quick wing flap to bank around the opponent, using a single grounded claw to pivot himself properly. A dragging claw would create some ground sparks. A roll away is a bit easier as it can work like a hop. It might not be fast, but that's okay as Ridley's size should allow him to cover a decent distance.

I brought up falls in an earlier post, so why not that? Ridley being on his stomach is pretty easy, and his get up attack can involve him thrusting his body off the ground and slamming his claws on the ground violently. Or perhaps swinging his tail at each side. Ridley being on his back is a bit tougher. Likely he'll keep one leg bent, knee pointing upward, and another leg arched near the ground to use as little space as possible. A get up attack from this position could have him turn his torso partially, then exhale a bit of flame as his repositions himself so it hits both sides.


I'll stop here, 'cause I don't have to time to go even further. I didn't bother addressing actual attacks, 'cause that's often the easy part. Attacking tends to involve staying in character, having a decent system of risks and rewards, and other things. It's the things that the entire cast has to be capable of that tends to be a bit tricker. When everybody has to have a sidestep, a roll, an air-dodge, a ledge attack... Somehow continuing to fit in the battle system as snuggly as possible AND stand out from among the cast is just as big of a challenge as providing unique and sensibly designed attacks.

Another Ridley size comparison, but not with T-poses...

That doesn't seem right. Rosalina's too big. Yes she's tall, but that would make her even taller than Bowser. I think we need to see some better comparisons between her and other characters.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Would it be possible to see this with Peach or Mario or someone as well? I'm not familiar enough with Rosalina's height for this to be a good comparison, you know?

T-pose size comparisons.

 

[Pacack]

T-pose size comparisons.

You're a saint. Thanks.

Either I'm looking at this wrong, or this is a little odd looking. I may just not be used to Rosalina's size, but Ridley looks...dare I say it, too small.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You're a saint. Thanks.

Either I'm looking at this wrong, or this is a little odd looking. I may just not be used to Rosalina's size, but Ridley looks...dare I say it, too small.

My Ridley size depiction has him rivaling Bowser's size (as shown on my Giga Bowser size comparison image). Others don't seem to agree with this though, even though we have the following to prove otherwise...

I guess it can just be a pain to try to determine how tall playable Ridley should be when everyone has different inputs.

Edit: Better sprite size comparisons...

 

[UltimateWario]

You think you can take that Ridley model, size him up a tad, and put him on all-fours?

You don't have to, but I would owe you. -winkwinkiwink-

 

[bobadz]

The thing with Ridley is that he is very controversial character more so then any other character besides Mii, Waluigi, and Pacman. Ridley's reveal in any form (boss,playable,assist trophy,stage hazard) will cause a lot of controversy. More then any other character.

 

[Angelglory]

Hmm... Maybe I should update my own comparison...

 

[UltimateWario]

The thing with Ridley is that he is very controversial character more so then any other character besides Mii, Waluigi, and Pacman. Ridley's reveal in any form (boss,playable,assist trophy,stage hazard) will cause a lot of controversy. More then any other character.

Eh, I feel like him being playable will just cause some butthurt among a few nonsensical haters, who will then A.) finally concede that they were wrong or B.) keep being butthurt forever, either of which I will not give two ****s about because playable Ridley.

Playable Ridley is pretty much the only one that won't cause some sort of mass murder.

 

[Pacack]

My Ridley size depiction has him rivaling Bowser's size (as shown on my Giga Bowser size comparison image). Others don't seem to agree with this though, even though we have the following to prove otherwise...

I guess it can just be a pain to try to determine how tall playable Ridley should be when everyone has different inputs.

Edit: Better sprite size comparisons...

Yeah, I must not be used to Rosalina's size yet. She's bigger than I thought.

 

[UltimateWario]

Yeah, she's stupid huge for some reason.

 

[Pacack]

Yeah, she's stupid huge for some reason.

Well, to be fair, she was huge in the Galaxy games too.

 

[UltimateWario]

Well, to be fair, she was huge in the Galaxy games too.

Yeah, I guess so, but it looks weird. She's like an amazon or something.

 

[Soupenomics]

Yeah, I guess so, but it looks weird. She's like an amazon or something.

Space Amazons. We've struck gold.

 

[Pacack]

Yeah, I guess so, but it looks weird. She's like an amazon or something.

Well, it makes balancing a bit easier. That Luma mechanic would be seriously overpowered if she didn't have that large frame and light weight.

 

[UltimateWario]

large frame and light weight.

Rosalina confirmed for Mewtwo.

 

[Pacack]

Rosalina confirmed for Mewtwo.

That actually leaves us with an interesting question.

If we have Rosalina as a light (or mid)-weight large character, and we're probably getting Mewtwo at a similar weight and size, do we really want to make Ridley light or mid weight too? Sounds like a few too many large, light characters. (This isn't even considering another one like Palutena)

 

[UltimateWario]

Eh, I feel like Ridley would be heavier than Mewtwo or Rosy.

I also feel that Mewtwo will likely get an almost-complete overhaul rather than fixing his old moves like Project M did. I wouldn't be surprised if he was heavier.

 

[Pacack]

Eh, I feel like Ridley would be heavier than Mewtwo or Rosy.

I also feel that Mewtwo will likely get an almost-complete overhaul rather than fixing his old moves like Project M did. I wouldn't be surprised if he was heavier.

Huh, I always really assumed that Mewtwo would keep his original moveset, but that's a valid point. They might overhaul him completely. Or, at the very least, they might change his weight (and maybe size).

So, by lightest weight to heaviest, how do you envision the large character's weights?

I'd (hesitantly) say:
Rosalina/Mewtwo
Palutena
Donkey Kong
Ridley
King K. Rool
Bowser
Ganon

I may not be accurate on how heavy DK is, as I'm not overly familiar with him, and I didn't count Ganondorf, who I do not know the weight of at all.

 

[Phaazoid]

Ok all things considered you guys do have a persuasive argument as to why and how Ridley should be included. My question is, if he was a character who towered a bit above that of the larger characters, how would you balance him? Would he have sweet spots on moves? Would his attacks be splash damage oriented? How heavy would he be? Would he have a lot of cool down frames on his attacks? What moves will have Super Armor?Etc.

I truly hope for everyone's sake that the character y'all want gets in , as for me, I have no personal preference, I'm just compulsively detail oriented and an inaccurate depiction of a character tends to make me not want to see him / her. When I saw him in Brawl as a boss he was perfect, and I thought it would be hard to get all of that on him if he were playable, but hey--what do I know, I'm no game designer.

I'll tell you the truth, I can't really picture Ridley perfectly as a playable character - my mind has been poisoned by too many Charizard re-skins, Other - M Ridley screenshots, and shrunken down boss Ridley in a T-pose.


My favorite screenshot is always this one

where all of Ridley's proportions seem extremely reasonable.

As for balancing, I would imagine Ridley a little like Mewtwo, in the fact that he is larger, yet floatier, and lighter than he looks.

I imagine him having a decent ground game - an attack from his tail could give him more range than people might suspect, and he has the claws, teeth, and even wings to get extra hits in with. However, I imagine Ridley would shine in aerial combat, being a large, yet floatier character, he could get a wide array of aerial attacks off.

I also imagine Ridley having at least some sort of projectile in his special moves. The most obvious choice would be a fireball of some sort, but there are plenty of other viable ideas.

I personally like the idea of having some sort of grab move for one of his specials, maybe his side special. In fights with him, or cutscenes in metroid games, Ridley often attempts to grapple with Samus. Most notably, in the SSE, when he grinds her against the wall. Honestly, if that could somehow be incorporated into his moveset, that'd be amazing in my book.

 

[RODO]

Size matters

 

[AustarusIV]

Ridley has some similarities with Charizard, but I doubt it's the biggest argument against his inclusion if they're trying to avoid clone characters. It's the same deal with Dedede/Bowser and K. Rool, when people against him try to argue that he would be nothing more than a dull clone of either character. Any person who sees Ridley in action in a Metroid game would immediately know that he plays nothing like Charizard. Or in Brawl for that matter, because those people will think he's Dyna Blade.

At worst, he would just be a luigified clone.

 

[LazerRage]

I'll tell you the truth, I can't really picture Ridley perfectly as a playable character - my mind has been poisoned by too many Charizard re-skins, Other - M Ridley screenshots, and shrunken down boss Ridley in a T-pose.


My favorite screenshot is always this one

where all of Ridley's proportions seem extremely reasonable.

THANK YOU for sharing!! This looks TOTALLY reasonable, and so it gives me a glimmer of hope! Especially when you also consider this previous post comparing the sprites from the old school games that made these characters famous in the first place:

......

[..........]

Edit: Better sprite size comparisons...

These images are all the proof needed to show that Ridley can be faithfully represented and still be a playable character.

Let's get real here, people. Nintendo has NEVER been consistent with RIdley's size over the years, so the argument "he's too big," doesn't really hold up. Bowser's size has also fluctuated over the years (he towered over Mario in Super Mario 64). More examples: Olimar should technically be shorter than Mario's shoe, yet they worked him in well. According to Pokemon, Pikachu should only be about a foot or two tall also, but in Smash Bros., his size doesn't feel that off despite actually being a bit giganto-sized relative to Mario...etc.

 

[BKupa666]

Ridley would definitely be a floatier heavyweight, but probably a heavyweight nonetheless. Funny enough you guys should mention Charizard, because that's about where I picture him weighing in. I think he should be at least as heavy as Samus at any rate for the sake of consistency, much like K. Rool should be at least as heavy as DK.

 

[Welshy91]

THANK YOU for sharing!! This looks TOTALLY reasonable, and so it gives me a glimmer of hope! Especially when you also consider this previous post comparing the sprites from the old school games that made these characters famous in the first place:


These images are all the proof needed to show that Ridley can be faithfully represented and still be a playable character.

Let's get real here, people. Nintendo has NEVER been consistent with RIdley's size over the years, so the argument "he's too big," doesn't really hold up. Bowser's size has also fluctuated over the years (he towered over Mario in Super Mario 64). More examples: Olimar should technically be shorter than Mario's shoe, yet they worked him in well. According to Pokemon, Pikachu should only be about a foot or two tall also, but in Smash Bros., his size doesn't feel that off despite actually being a bit giganto-sized relative to Mario...etc.

You. I like you.

 

[Groose]

Stop with the NES comparions; it's almost as faulty an argument as "too big." Ridley's size was retconned for Zero Mission, and there were indeed technical limitations. When people bring up the "too big" argument, they refute the NES size as part of their rhetoric; we shouldn't keep using it because we're just opening ourselves up to straw-manning.

Instead of this argument (and the trite Melee opening and Olimar arguments), we should turn to other things that people don't consider: hunched position, Ganondorf desized, Angelglory's size comparison. Doing so would put us in a much more defensible position and allow us to convert some of the toobigots to our side.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I've kept saying that before myself (about the NES stuff), but does anyone listen? It's because of the faultiness of the NES comparisons too that the whole supporting Kraid thing became as much of a fad/mockery as it did.

 

[UltimateWario]

I was actually writing the script to an informational video explaining Ridley's size issues, and I started the video with "The NES Ridley isn't canon or relevant to the argument, so I'm not going to bring it up".

Good to know my fellow Space Pirates are like-minded.

hunched position

Ridley would, by canon, have to walk on all-fours, so this isn't really something you can use. People seem to forget that Ridley cannot walk properly on his hind legs; hell, forcing him onto his hind legs is key to beating him in the first and third Prime games.

We should be treating him less like a giant Charizard and more like a giant Ivysaur with wings and longer limbs.

 

[Groose]

I was actually writing the script to a informational video explaining Ridley's size issues, and I started the video with "The NES Ridley isn't canon or relevant to the argument, so I'm not going to bring it up". Good to know my fellow Space Pirates are like-minded.

I started writing a video to respond to Shokio's back over the summer; unfortunately, I never finished it. If you need any help with the video's script, I'd be willing to contribute; if you send me what you have, I may be able to help you add some stuff.

Ridley would, by canon, have to walk on all-fours, so this isn't really something you can use. People seem to forget that Ridley cannot walk properly on his hind legs; hell, forcing him onto his hind legs is key to beating him in the first and third Prime games.

I was referring to his idling position; he would run on four legs, but I imagine he would hunch up a bit onto two when he idles. Anyway, he is in no way going to reach his full height on the ground; in the air is more debatable.

However, I actually didn't know that about his boss fights in the Prime series. The only Metroid games I've played are NES, Super, Fusion and Echoes. I wish I had pounced on the Metroid Prime trilogy when I saw it; right now, I'm stuck to trying to wheedle my pal into "loaning" me his copy of the first Prime.

 

[UltimateWario]

I kinda stopped working on it, but it's not dead by any means. I'll upload it so you folks can check it out at your leisure.

EDIT: Nevermind, I have a lot less finished than I thought it did. I simply listed all of his appearances and his size in them, along with the intro. Maybe I'll upload it after I work on it some more.

I have two copies of Prime Trilogy.

 

[Opossum]

So I had a thought. How does this sound for a possible Down Special?

Ridley lets out a glare and an evil roar. If the foe is in the roar's range, they are put into a "paralyzed with fear" shaking state (think Beast Ganon in Brawl). Though, this would be a lesser version of the previous example, and can only be used on the ground (this could help with balance, as Ridley's ground game could easily be poor compared to his air game). It really drives Ridley's "intimidation" factor home, showcasing it as his primary characteristic (as opposed to his size as most toobigots would like to think).

All in all, think of it as a slightly better version of Jigglypuff's Sing, but more fearsome and keeps the foe in the state long enough to hit them.

 

[UltimateWario]

Eh. I think Ridley has plenty of options other options that would come before making how scary he looks an actual move.

Good thought, though.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Ridley having an option to stopping momentum sounds like an interesting idea, but it needs the appropriate balance.

A character with a lot of powerful attacks with the ability to stop the opponent cold can easily be broken if not careful.

 

[BKupa666]

So I had a thought. How does this sound for a possible Down Special?

Ridley lets out a glare and an evil roar. If the foe is in the roar's range, they are put into a "paralyzed with fear" shaking state (think Beast Ganon in Brawl). Though, this would be a lesser version of the previous example, and can only be used on the ground (this could help with balance, as Ridley's ground game could easily be poor compared to his air game). It really drives Ridley's "intimidation" factor home, showcasing it as his primary characteristic (as opposed to his size as most toobigots would like to think).

All in all, think of it as a slightly better version of Jigglypuff's Sing, but more fearsome and keeps the foe in the state long enough to hit them.

Yes. I'm imagining it like that wing-flapping wind attack he has in his boss incarnation, just with some actual useful stun involved, rather than just pushback. Actually, maybe the first use of the move could stun characters, while the second could blow them back. This would not only serve the defensive purpose of keeping combowh*res away from Ridley's large frame, but also the offensive purpose of spacing them to be hit with the sweetspots of Ridley's tail and chomping standards.

 

[FinalStarmen]

A straightforward notification to the OP:

On the thread's main page, opening up the Spoiler Tag for AngelGlory's Size Comparisons leads to broken images. When the time arises, we should perform maintenance service.

 

[Phaazoid]

You. I like you.

Can I keep him?

 

[Welshy91]

Can I keep him?

Alternating weekends.

 

[Vann Accessible]

I don't believe in retcons. Retcons are bull. I don't want to live in a world where the Koopalings aren't Bowser's kids.

So yeah, this here:

is most certainly still is an argument.

 

[Angelglory]

So I had a thought. How does this sound for a possible Down Special?

Ridley lets out a glare and an evil roar. If the foe is in the roar's range, they are put into a "paralyzed with fear" shaking state (think Beast Ganon in Brawl). Though, this would be a lesser version of the previous example, and can only be used on the ground (this could help with balance, as Ridley's ground game could easily be poor compared to his air game). It really drives Ridley's "intimidation" factor home, showcasing it as his primary characteristic (as opposed to his size as most toobigots would like to think).

All in all, think of it as a slightly better version of Jigglypuff's Sing, but more fearsome and keeps the foe in the state long enough to hit them.

The moveset I made actual has a move just like that for his DownB

 

[Phaazoid]

Alternating weekends.

We don't have to go through the courts do we?

 

[Welshy91]

We don't have to go through the courts do we?

Not if you can refrain from attempting to sell him to the Chinese like the last batch of kids under your watch. That's enough Futurama references for now. Actually no, I have one more reference. If Ridley ever talks, he should talk like Pazuzu.