Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[majora_787]

People still pretend saying other bosses besides Yellow Devil exist while Ridley is in the background is decisive evidence? We've been over this plenty of times. We have no evidence to say they are directly related, and PLENTY of evidence that indicates they don't need to be related.

People do this all the time in youtube countdowns and rankings and what have you, and this even happened with Melee's own advertisement. You can say one thing while something goes through the background and not actually have them be related. And the fact of the matter is, in this context, since we don't have proof that they ARE related, it's safe enough to say that they aren't.

EDIT: Also needless to say being pretentious and calling people children for disagreeing with you doesn't get you brownie points here for some mysterious reason.

 

[shrooby]

Actually...

A red colour palette would still be cool though

We don't know if it works the same in the Wii U version though!

 

[Hexaped]

Someone probably stated this before, but, if Mr. Sakurai designed that Direct, perhaps he juxtaposed those two parts (the Yellow Devil part and Ridley part) to mess with us. Perhaps it was the only way to cause vague impressions of Ridley's role. If the Ridley part was placed elsewhere, and din't have that sentence attached, people would be less inclined to state Ridley is a boss (probably).

 

[CrypticSpark]

We don't know if it works the same in the Wii U version though!

Pretty sure most if not all of the alt costumes have been shown on the Wii U vesrion, so it would make sense that the same would apply for the Wii U in team battles.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I see @ JesseMcCloud needs comencing

Look at his size with megamans shadow (wings cut out of ridleys shadow due to the illusions they are causing

And now the reverse.

As far as im concered ridley is almost almost as short as he was on metroid nes

A playable size, and as for the boss thing

He said boss characters, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't bowser and dedede boss characters.

 

[TerminalMontage]

Someone probably stated this before, but, if Mr. Sakurai designed that Direct, perhaps he juxtaposed those two parts (the Yellow Devil part and Ridley part) to mess with us. Perhaps it was the only way to cause vague impressions of Ridley's role. If the Ridley part was placed elsewhere, and din't have that sentence attached, people would be less inclined to state Ridley is a boss (probably).

Sakurai likes to have control over everything, I'm sure he had a hand on almost everything Smash related that we've seen.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Hey. I made the second post.

As another poster (myself),

I recommend reading the second post. You're arguments are baseless and no one will listen until you are educated on the subject. All of the arguments you are trying to make have been made in the second post.

First off, Con0rrrr, please understand I mean you no disrespect. Your dedication and zeal are very much to be lauded. I truly wish we had more supporters with your level of enthusiasm.
Secondly, as I said in the post you quoted, I was simply asking Dalek for a more fleshed-out response, as I didn't understand his logic.
Now. For the tough part. The arguments you have listed are all, at the very best, a textbook definition of "Straw Man" argumentation. The facts are very little more than baseless speculation and thereupon the thread has devolved into further speculation and theory-crafting.
I apologize if any of this comes off as a personal attack, trolling, or just being a general cloud of gloom and doom. I'm simply tired of everyone saying that "nothing has been proven or dis-proven!" It's almost as bad as the outcry for Shrek to be made playable.
Ignorance, I can forgive. Willful ignorance, not so much.

I see @ JesseMcCloud needs comencing
He said boss characters, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't bowser and dedede boss characters.

Yes, with the exception being that Bowser and Dedede are boss characters of the series they represent. They are not boss characters in the sense of being stage hazards in the same manner as the Yellow Devil. Context is key here.

 

[Zem-raj]

I hope you all realize that 99% of the "too big" comments are just people running with the meme / joke that Ridley is gigantic, unfathomably huge, etc, and trying to get a rise out of people who don't realize the joke.

The serious people who are truly against playable Ridley are actually very few in number. Almost all so-called "detractors" are arguing that they don't want him playable because they think the April Direct confirmed him as a Boss, and they take what they consider Sakurai's opinions to be the word of God. Some also think he's too violent and sadistic for Smash Bros, etc.

I guess the people in the other forum I visit are in the 1% then, they believe that Ridley's genuinely too big, regardless of the stupid meme.

I'm rather embarrassed that I even know them ._.''

 

[shrooby]

Pretty sure most if not all of the alt costumes have been shown on the Wii U vesrion, so it would make sense that the same would apply for the Wii U in team battles.

Well, the outlines are exclusive to the 3DS version.
So, it wouldn't be incredibly to think that colored outlines would also be exclusive to the 3DS. It doesn't really matter much though. Nor is this the place for such a discussion.

 

[Con0rrrr]

First off, Con0rrrr, please understand I mean you no disrespect. Your dedication and zeal are very much to be lauded. I truly wish we had more supporters with your level of enthusiasm.
Secondly, as I said in the post you quoted, I was simply asking Dalek for a more fleshed-out response, as I didn't understand his logic.
Now. For the tough part. The arguments you have listed are all, at the very best, a textbook definition of "Straw Man" argumentation. The facts are very little more than baseless speculation and thereupon the thread has devolved into further speculation and theory-crafting.
I apologize if any of this comes off as a personal attack, trolling, or just being a general cloud of gloom and doom. I'm simply tired of everyone saying that "nothing has been proven or dis-proven!" It's almost as bad as the outcry for Shrek to be made playable.
Ignorance, I can forgive. Willful ignorance, not so much.

It's fine dude. I never took it as that.

I'm not as dedicated as you might think. I was just like you, doubting Ridley's playability, until I saw the arguments presented in this thread. That is why I made that. A thank you to this thread and a place to send people not educated on the topic.

But I do disagree with you.

Please explain how the arguments listed there are "baseless speculation". Is pure fact that Ridley is playable character size "baseless"? I would hope you don't think that. Or else we need a whole 'nother conversation on what is fact and what is not.

I personally find Aldelaro's essay to be the best fit for you to read. It is not meant to convince you. It is meant to inform you on the situation. There has never been one person to call the info presented in that thread baseless. Why? Because it's not. Everything in that thread (save for the miscellaneous section) is pure logic, fact, and concrete evidence.

Speculation is "Well this pattern suggests this". Fact is, "Ridley's shadow the size of Bowser implying playable character size".

There is too much evidence for Ridley's favor for someone to say, after reading that post, that he is for sure a boss. Not to lift myself up, I just organized the post, didn't write the stuff.

You claim Ridley has been disproven by your comment of

I'm simply tired of everyone saying that "nothing has been proven or dis-proven!"

Yet, you seem to be so sure on the case that he is disproven. Directly contradicting that statment.

Then you say that you cannot stand ignorance. But let's evaluate. Who's the ignorant one at the moment? The one coming to a Ridley support thread and denying concrete fact as "baseless evidence", or the one presenting the evidence in the first place.

Not an attack on you, you're a respectful guy. Just everything in your post right there made absolute zero sense.

 

[Zem-raj]

Wait... there are people still on about Ridley's size being important in a non-canon game?

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Ok, that does it. You've gone ahead and personally attacked me, so now I'll just have to show you exactly what you need to see.
First of all: you've already got plenty of responses from so many people. Here, I'll quote all of them so far:



But because you seem to be extremely ignorant, I'll sum them up.

• "Boss character" is incredibly vague wording. Previously, Sakurai has gone ahead and completely outright deconfirmed characters: Why would he simply beat around the bush here?
• Bowser, Dedede and Donkey Kong can also be described as "boss characters" in that they are characters that have appeared as bosses
• Phosphora has absolutely been confirmed to be 100% a trophy... oh wait a second, she was later shown as an assist trophy later.

Second off, you cannot simply disregard that post. It was put there specifically for people like you, so because you cannot appear to do something so simple as click the link, I'll quote it here instead.

Take a look at the "shadow analysis" part of this, and it should show you what you need to know. Can't be bothered to read it? Too bad, cause your attention span in that case would appear to be too short for me to bother any further.
Have a nice day

Firstly, my intent was not to "personally attack" you, so much as to gently chide you for interrupting my conversation with Dalek. Ironic that you immediately follow up by calling me "extremely ignorant." Double standard much?
Now, on to your "arguments":

• Context is key here. Sakurai explained Yellow Devil's role in Smash as a Stage-specific boss character. He was not doing a montage on characters that appeared as boss characters in their respective series. Then he immediately teased Ridley.
• Straw Man argument example number 2...
• Nowhere was Phosphora hinted at being anything other than a Trophy or Assist Trophy. Straw Man argument number 3!

Finally, I did not "disregard" the second post you listed, so much as point out it had very little to do with my not understanding Dalek's logic. Your quote was out of place and was not relevant to our conversation.
Lastly, this "shadow analysis" proves nothing. Ridley's size has no impact on any of my argument. It's like countering my argument that "the sky is blue" with "that's impossible because the grass is green!"
I hope you have a nice day as well.

 

[Hexaped]

@ TerminalMontage Oh, poop! You're the person who did all those videos! WOAH!!! Thanks for all those videos. Ever since I signed up to use this site, I feel like I am in park full of celebrities. Anyway, thanks for replying. Wait. I want to reference something. A chain is only as weak as its strongest Ridleydorf. Perhaps only you may understand that sentence!
Now, to return to the topic! What kind of subtle references can everyone imagine for Ridley's moveset? It would be scary if Ridley had a technique which would seem only a Metroid could do, to imply that Ridley, at some point, used research to imbue themselves with a Metroid ability, since Ridley wanted a "you know what" in a certain game.

 

[shrooby]

Wait... there are people still on about Ridley's size being important in a non-canon game?

Well, to be fair, I do think it's important that Ridley be bigger than Olimar.

 

[TitanTeaTime]

Well, the outlines are exclusive to the 3DS version.
So, it wouldn't be incredibly to think that colored outlines would also be exclusive to the 3DS. It doesn't really matter much though. Nor is this the place for such a discussion.

Well, honestly I'm just thinking that it'd be a little bit unintuitive to allow players to choose whatever colours they want on each team on only 1 version, with the version released later not having that. I feel like there'd be at least something in place on the Wii U version that works similarly.
EDIT: This was my 1000th post, and I just wasted it. Jooooooy

 

[CrypticSpark]

Well, the outlines are exclusive to the 3DS version.
So, it wouldn't be incredibly to think that colored outlines would also be exclusive to the 3DS. It doesn't really matter much though. Nor is this the place for such a discussion.

I'm sure what ever he does for the Wii U version will work out, but I'm personally leaning more toward colour outline for 3DS and Wii U, since he's normally clear about 3DS and Wii U exclusive features.

Also if IsmaR happens to read this conversation it is relevant to Ridley due to costume and palette swaps

 

[Con0rrrr]

Lastly, this "shadow analysis" proves nothing. Ridley's size has no impact on any of my argument. It's like countering my argument that "the sky is blue" with "that's impossible because the grass is green!"
I

Size has no impact on your argument? Let's consider something.

Ridley is so infamous for being big. The main argument against him is that he couldn't be downscaled to playable size.

But as we see by the shadow analysis, he was. He is for sure character size.

Now why would they downscale a character as boss, who has an excuse for being big, to playable character size, just to be used as a boss? If he was a boss, wouldn't they keep him large? Such as Brawl boss size?

Also, wouldn't Ridley be fast like he is as a boss or in his games as a boss? Why move so slow when boss Ridley should be flying back and forth across the stage scraping characters along the walls?

Why would a character so infamous for being large be downscaled to playable size, to be used as a boss?

 

[ZeroJinKui]

you know, things were fun and fairly peaceful not long ago... now i have a headache.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Size has no impact on your argument? Let's consider something.

Ridley is so infamous for being big. The main argument against him is that he couldn't be downscaled to playable size.

But as we see by the shadow analysis, he was. He is for sure character size.

Now why would they downscale a character as boss, who has an excuse for being big, to playable character size, just to be used as a boss? If he was a boss, wouldn't they keep him large? Such as Brawl boss size?

Also, wouldn't Ridley be fast like he is as a boss or in his games as a boss? Why move so slow when boss Ridley should be flying back and forth across the stage scraping characters along the walls?

Why would a character so infamous for being large be downscaled to playable size, to be used as a boss?

Well said, and thanks for the compliment.
Allow me to explain my position on the shadow analysis. I feel there are too many factors that could affect the size of Ridley's shadow. He's a flying character, and his distance or lack thereof could affect his shadow. Also, the surface of the stage is not flat, which will distort it and make it harder to compare.
The shadow argument almost feels like the old blurry Bigfoot pictures of days past...
In regards to his speed, remember how bosses will work (at least as was shown in Devil's case): They are essentially moving targets, rewarding that player that lands the "killing blow."

 

[majora_787]

Firstly, my intent was not to "personally attack" you, so much as to gently chide you for interrupting my conversation with Dalek. Ironic that you immediately follow up by calling me "extremely ignorant." Double standard much?
Now, on to your "arguments":

• Context is key here. Sakurai explained Yellow Devil's role in Smash as a Stage-specific boss character. He was not doing a montage on characters that appeared as boss characters in their respective series. Then he immediately teased Ridley.
• Straw Man argument example number 2...
• Nowhere was Phosphora hinted at being anything other than a Trophy or Assist Trophy. Straw Man argument number 3!

Finally, I did not "disregard" the second post you listed, so much as point out it had very little to do with my not understanding Dalek's logic. Your quote was out of place and was not relevant to our conversation.
Lastly, this "shadow analysis" proves nothing. Ridley's size has no impact on any of my argument. It's like countering my argument that "the sky is blue" with "that's impossible because the grass is green!"
I hope you have a nice day as well.

Gentle chides generally involve fewer things you know full well will bother people. If I tell someone to stop being stupid I am not gently chiding them, because I'm deliberately saying things that will bother people.

A montage does not matter. Context is key and context does not have an exception as much as you want to make one for your own convenience. And also, you literally wrote off legitimate points as straw men because they don't facilitate your points, and then claimed that you didn't disregard them.

And Ridley's size may not be decisive evidence of anything, but it leaves a definite indication as to what Ridley's role could be while working well. Of course you will blow this off as a strawman and/or ignore it outright with some level of backhanded smugness, but I really don't care.

EDIT: We have an understanding of how shadows work on Pyrosphere, and they all work the same UNLESS you are walking in here with the claim that Ridley's shadow is The Exception to Pyrosphere's lighting.

We know that for everyone the shadow is a static 1:1 skewed to the back right. This is nothing new and is not different for Ridley exclusively.

Just because you don't like the evidence doesn't make it equivalent to blurry bigfoot photos.

 

[RidleyKraid187]

Erm... My point is that Ridley IS a boss character, in the sense that Yellow Devil is as well; essentially a glorified stage hazard.

Not To Alienate you, But You Can't exactly reason with those who have found legitimate reasons to believe against your claims. If you Wish to see our reasons, Page 1 has a great Essay on the Positive hints to Ridley's Playability

 

[Mansana]

Firstly, my intent was not to "personally attack" you, so much as to gently chide you for interrupting my conversation with Dalek. Ironic that you immediately follow up by calling me "extremely ignorant." Double standard much?
Now, on to your "arguments":

• Context is key here. Sakurai explained Yellow Devil's role in Smash as a Stage-specific boss character. He was not doing a montage on characters that appeared as boss characters in their respective series. Then he immediately teased Ridley.
• Straw Man argument example number 2...
• Nowhere was Phosphora hinted at being anything other than a Trophy or Assist Trophy. Straw Man argument number 3!

Finally, I did not "disregard" the second post you listed, so much as point out it had very little to do with my not understanding Dalek's logic. Your quote was out of place and was not relevant to our conversation.
Lastly, this "shadow analysis" proves nothing. Ridley's size has no impact on any of my argument. It's like countering my argument that "the sky is blue" with "that's impossible because the grass is green!"
I hope you have a nice day as well.

I like your humble approach sir. I will just like to say that since his role is not explicitly stated and only implied, one should not fall under any assumptions. So technically everyone is wrong. That's right I said it. All followers and detractors are wrong. Sakurai merely left Ridley's role under the shadows and we won't know till otherwise explicitly notified.

 

[Con0rrrr]

Well said, and thanks for the compliment.
Allow me to explain my position on the shadow analysis. I feel there are too many factors that could affect the size of Ridley's shadow. He's a flying character, and his distance or lack thereof could affect his shadow. Also, the surface of the stage is not flat, which will distort it and make it harder to compare.
The shadow argument almost feels like the old blurry Bigfoot pictures of days past...
In regards to his speed, remember how bosses will work (at least as was shown in Devil's case): They are essentially moving targets, rewarding that player that lands the "killing blow."

If you referred to the Shadow Analysis' in depth, such as the Megaman one above, we can see a character in the air, and have images form all angles. So we can replicate it 100%.

I remember Yellow Devil. And he moved hella fast. What would one gain from killing Ridley besides the tears of all his supporters?

If we are real, none of your arguments have yet to counter the ones already presented, and are even overshadowed (heh, shadow) by the evidence for him.

You also failed to address the post above as well, that shut down the rest of your arguments.

 

[shrooby]

The shadow argument almost feels like the old blurry Bigfoot pictures of days past...

Are you trying to imply that it was just somebody in a Ridley costume the whole time?
Because, if it is, that all but confirms the actual Ridley being playable.

 

[TitanTeaTime]

Firstly, my intent was not to "personally attack" you, so much as to gently chide you for interrupting my conversation with Dalek. Ironic that you immediately follow up by calling me "extremely ignorant." Double standard much?

Ok, at this point it's obvious that you're going to ignore anything anyone says against your toobigotry, so I'm going to just tear apart this.

Firstly, my intent was not to "personally attack" you, so much as to gently chide you...

First of all, **** you. here's the exact thing you said:

Now hush, child. The grown-ups are trying to have a conversation

Calling me a child and then insinuating that I have no place in this is a personal attack as far as I'm concerned. "Gently chiding" does not involve blatantly accusing someone of being of a lower intellect.

...for interrupting my conversation with Dalek.

You do not "interrupt a conversation" on a public message board. I don't think you understand how these places work. If you want to have a private conversation, take it to PMs.

Ironic that you immediately follow up by calling me "extremely ignorant." Double standard much?

No, it's not a double standard. A double standard would something like saying one group of people can't do something, but another group of people can do the same thing. This is me responding to being "gently chided," as you would call it.
Don't bother responding to this, I feel like I've said enough. This is going off topic and it's going on the verge of flaming (actually, I think it already is) so I'd rather not get either of us infractions.

 

[PerfectChaos9]

I feel like it's worth noting that even if Pyrosphere's lighting were to mimic how shadows were cast in the real world, Ridley's shadow that was shown in the direct could only get bigger, meaning that if he was closer to the point at which his shadow is being cast onto, he'd be even smaller than the shadow implies.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Ok, at this point it's obvious that you're going to ignore anything anyone says against your toobigotry, so I'm going to just tear apart this.

First of all, **** you. here's the exact thing you said:

Calling me a child and then insinuating that I have no place in this is a personal attack as far as I'm concerned. "Gently chiding" does not involve blatantly accusing someone of being of a lower intellect.

You do not "interrupt a conversation" on a public message board. I don't think you understand how these places work. If you want to have a private conversation, take it to PMs.

No, it's not a double standard. A double standard would something like saying one group of people can do something, but another group of people can do the same thing. This is me responding to being "gently chided," as you would call it.
Don't bother responding to this, I feel like I've said enough. This is going off topic and it's going on the verge of flaming (actually, I think it already is) so I'd rather not get either of us infractions.

Well, it wasn't intended to be that much of an insult. If you took it so much to heart, then I genuinely apologize. I'll even go back and edit it out of my post.
That said, you've resorted to far more ad hominem attacks in this post than I have in this entire forum. Again, saying that you can attack me, and I cannot do the same, is a double standard.
Finally, I was asking Dalek to explain his argument when you posted links that did not explain his statement. That's all I meant.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I feel like it's worth noting that even if Pyrosphere's lighting were to mimic how shadows were cast in the real world, Ridley's shadow that was shown in the direct could only get bigger, meaning that if he was closer to the point at which his shadow is being cast onto, he'd be even smaller than the shadow implies.

This is why I keep emphasizing that the sizes I draw from the Direct are the LARGEST sizes possible. Ridley can only get smaller from my shadow analysis. Most likely Wizardglory's size.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Gentle chides generally involve fewer things you know full well will bother people. If I tell someone to stop being stupid I am not gently chiding them, because I'm deliberately saying things that will bother people.

A montage does not matter. Context is key and context does not have an exception as much as you want to make one for your own convenience. And also, you literally wrote off legitimate points as straw men because they don't facilitate your points, and then claimed that you didn't disregard them.

And Ridley's size may not be decisive evidence of anything, but it leaves a definite indication as to what Ridley's role could be while working well. Of course you will blow this off as a strawman and/or ignore it outright with some level of backhanded smugness, but I really don't care.

EDIT: We have an understanding of how shadows work on Pyrosphere, and they all work the same UNLESS you are walking in here with the claim that Ridley's shadow is The Exception to Pyrosphere's lighting.

We know that for everyone the shadow is a static 1:1 skewed to the back right. This is nothing new and is not different for Ridley exclusively.

Just because you don't like the evidence doesn't make it equivalent to blurry bigfoot photos.

No, no. I honestly want to have an informed and respectful conversation here. I apologized, and if that's not enough, well, there's really nothing I can do.
First, thank you for explaining how the shadows work in Smash. I had thought they may function more realistically than simply being static 1:1.
Perhaps I may need to re-word my previous statements. However, the fact still stands that all evidence in favor of Ridley is circumstantial at BEST.
In regards to TitanTeaTime's arguments being straw man, well, they are. Phosphora has nothing to do with the topic at hand, nor does the inclusion of characters that were formerly villains of previous games. Sakurai simply showed a few frames of Ridley's shadow while the tagline read "Other boss character appearances." Also, at the exact same time, the voiceover said, "Boss characters make appearances in other stages, not just this one."
As you said, "Context is key."
If you wish to reply, please refrain from the ad hominem, or from putting words in my mouth.

 

[Hexaped]

There are many users watching this thread now. Hey, users! Why not comment?

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I feel like it's worth noting that even if Pyrosphere's lighting were to mimic how shadows were cast in the real world, Ridley's shadow that was shown in the direct could only get bigger, meaning that if he was closer to the point at which his shadow is being cast onto, he'd be even smaller than the shadow implies.

I guess it depends on the source of the lighting. But according to @ majora_787 , shadows are 1:1, so I guess it's a moot point.

 

[insomniac19]

I'm so excited to see the vibrant shade of purple they'll use for him!

 

[shrooby]

There are many users watching this thread now. Hey, users! Why not comment?

They're Nintendo reps. They're only allowed to watch.

 

[PlayfulMushroom]

There are many users watching this thread now. Hey, users! Why not comment?

I like turtles

 

[NintenRob]

Are you guys serious? Ridley is too small (metroid Prime pinball is the only metroid game that counts)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

*Thread hops*

So what's new? Have I missed out on anything valuable and important?

 

[Hexaped]

@ insomniac19 I agree. That is precisely what I discussed a page or two ago. Other M Ridley displays a pleasingly bright purple to me.
@ True Blue Warrior You and I have missed the chance to post on page 1234. Please sob with me for the next 3 pages.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

*Thread hops*

So what's new? Have I missed out on anything valuable and important?

Not really. Here are the minutes:

 

[FalcoPaunch!121]

People earlier were saying that Ridley could be the opposite of Little Mac; all air game with no ground game. But Jigglypuff already does this. At the moment it seems like Ridley could be a heavyweight with a lot of airtime, and I agree, his large size is his flaw that makes him balanced. I just hope he ends up being different enough from Charizard to be a unique character.

Wouldn't that kinda make him broken? Jigglypuffs king but really heavy?

 

[Irarius]

http://ssb4dojo.com/post/9247535021...-still-wanting-ridley-in-he-has#disqus_thread

äääääh what