The 'Revamp A Veteran' Thread! This Week: Discussing YOSHI (new rules inside)

[Idon]

I (and probably only I) vote for Shulk for the next nomination for a revamp. I'm either extremely late or extremely early.

Either way, it's everything I've wanted to say has been discussed at length so I just wanna say that Jiggs's final smash should be gen 7's fairy Z-move.

 

[NeonBurrito]

Just a random scrub has already done an absolutely phenomenal job at going over various buffs he'd like Jigglypuff to have, to the point where I honestly feel like I may just be repeating some of his points, but as someone who adores playing Jigglypuff in nearly every game, I'd like to talk a bit too.

Spoiler

Attributes:

• Air Speed: 1.269 -> 1.35
• Air Friction: 0.0375 -> 0.05

Both of these are reverting them back to their Melee values, as well as placing Jigglypuff back into being 1st place in both categories. Jigglypuff's claim to fame in Smash is being a huge aerial threat, so increasing some of these traits help her get a leg up once again on her competition, as well as giving her niche as "the aerial fighter" back.

• Air Dodge: 35 (FAF) -> 32 (FAF)

Currently, Jigglypuff shares the same air dodge speed as a lot of heavyweights, which doesn't make a whole ton of sense, considering the lightweight nature of her character. Shortening the amount of lag her air dodge has not only improves her defensive options, something she could most certainly use, as well as falling more in line with other light weight characters, such as Game and Watch.

• Jumpsquat: 6 frames -> 4 frames

Her jumpsquat falls in somewhat of a similar spot as her air dodge, as in it falls more in line with heavy weights, rather than more lightweight characters. The adjustment to 4 frames not only allows her to get into the air quicker, which is something she could most definitely make use of, but it also falls in line with Kirby, a character with a very similar build to Jigglypuff. It just seems right to me that they would have the same jumpsquat speed.

• Aerial Jump Height: 19.786329 -> 21

Considering Jigglypuff does not have a traditional recovery move like nearly every other character in the game, or a crazy double jump + an extra Up-B boost like Yoshi does, a small increase in her recovery would be appreciated, considering a lot of characters received recovery buffs in Smash 4, leaving Jigglypuff out in the dust once again. A height of 21 still keeps her in last place, right behind Kirby, but also gives her recovery as well as her overall air time a bit of a boost.

• Air Release: absolute garbage -> not garbage

When grabbed, Jigglypuff nearly always gets air released due to her small structure. However, when released in the air, Jigglypuff is launched at an angle that doesn't put a whole lot of distance between her and her opponent. Having more distance between her and her opponent when released would prevent kill confirms that only she faces like in the link posted.

In terms of other attributes, such as her ground speeds, initial jump height, shield sizes, tractions, etc., I feel like they aren't really worth changing much. Jigglypuff isn't meant to be a ground fighter, so it makes sense for her ground-based attributes to be some of the worst in the game.

Ground / Grabs:

• Up Smash: 46 (FAF), active frames: 16-19 -> 45 (FAF), active frames: 7-10
• Down Smash: 49 (FAF), active frames: 14-15 -> 48 (FAF), active frames: 9-10
• Forward Smash: 50 (FAF), active frames: 16-24 -> 44 (FAF), active frames: 12-20

Like I said, Jigglypuff's never been a great ground fighter, so I think keeping her mostly unchanged in this field is fine. However, a lot of these are just changed back to their Melee forms, where they have just a few frames less of lag, as well as coming out a bit faster.

• Up Throw: 110 (BKB) -> 70 (BKB)
• Down Throw: 100 (BKB) -> 60 (BKB)

A decrease in terms of Jigglypuff's up throw's and down throw's knockback allow for the moves to be able to become combo-starters, keeping her opponents closer to her than usual.

Aerials:

• Up Air: 45 (FAF) -> 38 (FAF)
• Back Air: 40 (FAF), active frames: 12-13 -> 39 (FAF), active frames: 9-10
• Forward Air: active frames: 8-20 -> active frames: 7-22
• Down Air: 53 (FAF), active frames: 7-32 (multihit) -> 49 (FAF), active frames: 5-30 (multihit)

A lot of the changes I would make to Jigglypuff's aerials are simply in the form of frame data. A lot of these frame datas have been changed to better reflect Jigglypuff's frame data as it was in Melee, without any of the crazy disjoints. This change allows these moves to both come out and end faster, allowing for Jigglypuff to get more stuff done while in the air.

Rest and Pound:

• Rest: active frames: 2-4 -> active frame: 1, damaged healed: 5% (over time)

Rest comes out frame 1 again, just like in Melee. Unlike in Melee, the current damage Rest does in Smash 4 seems to be fine, being able to reliably kill characters around the ~60-70% mark, which seems a bit more fair than its iteration in Melee. Alongside that, Rest now heals a short amount over time, just like how the move works within the Pokemon games.

• Pound: active frames: 46 (FAF), active frames: 13-28 -> 45 (FAF), active frames: 12-27, Rising Pound returns

Everything about Pound is a frame quicker, being akin to how the move worked in Melee. Alongside that, Rising Pound from Melee returns as well, allowing Jigglypuff some more horizontal recovery.

Sing:

Unlike every other move at this point, I'd like Sing to get a complete rework, because it has been absolute butt for four games now. So, I've decided to turn it into a moving projectile, seen by my brilliant Photoshop:

This new 'Sing' projectile would travel at a very slow speed, slower than any projectile currently in the game, to the point where Jigglypuff could move faster than it in the air. Upon coming into contact with an opponent:

• If opponent is on the ground: Opponent falls asleep.
• If opponent is in the air: Opponent will be paralyzed for a short while (as if hit by Zero Suit Samus' Neutral-B), and then be knocked up a short distance vertically.

I feel like turning Sing into a projectile would solve numerous issues for Jigglypuff:

• Jigglypuff no longer lacks a projectile
• Makes Sing less garbage
• Gives her more options (ex: use Sing on the ground, hover above it in the air, opponent has to choose between fighting Jigglypuff or falling asleep / another option to punish foes in the air / sets up for more combos / etc.)

Rollout + Play Rough:

Also another changed special of Jigglypuff's, but isn't as much of a change as Sing was.

Rollout would work like normal, but would now have some new super armor to protect from weak projectiles and some Smash attacks. However, the real main event happens when Jigglypuff comes into contact with an opponent. Play Rough would activate, trapping the opponent for a short while, and then launching them as usual. Play Rough would be able to activate through shields as well, so the only way to avoid the attack would to be to hop over it or spotdodge.

Here's an example of how it would work, through my wonderful Photoshop and narrative crafting skills once more:

Jigglypuff: "I'm coming to get you, Kirby!"
Kirby: "I will just shield! You will do nothing to me!"

Jigglypuff: "Nice try! Play Rough can go throw shields!"
Kirby: "Oh no! I am currently being trapped for a short amount of time, as if I were to be caught in something like Cloud's Side-B or Marth's Side-B!"

Jigglypuff: "Get out of here!"
Kirby: "Curse you, Jigglypuff!"
​

Upon coming out of Play Rough / Rollout, Jigglypuff wouldn't be put in her helpless state.

Doing something like this would:

• Fix a lot of problems currently associated with Rollout (being put into helpless state after move finishes or makes contact, being easy to interrupt, being easy to avoid by just shielding)
• Gives Jigglypuff some Fairy-type flair she's currently lacking in Smash, despite recently becoming a Fairy-type in Gen VI

Final Smash:
Just give her Peach's current Final Smash and give Peach something new. Sleep is Jigglypuff's thing.

TL;DR: Give Jigglypuff her old air speed and some improved aerial-based attributes, fix up some of her frame data, and make Rollout / Sing less butt.

Or at least, that's how I would fix up Jigglypuff.

 

[Peridorito]

I don't think Jigglypuff needs any major changes. The way she plays in Smash is perfectly fine. She doesn't need any completely new moves. The only one I would change is her side special. Pound fits perfectly gameplay-wise but it's a little boring for a special move. I would change it to Play Rough: it has the same animation as Pound but if it connects a cloud of smoke appears and Jigglypuff hits the opponent multiple times. Aside from that she could have some magic sparkles in her moves like Zelda has. But that's about it really, Jigglypuff is one of the characters I feel doesn't need any major changes, just some buffs to make her stronger.

I nominate (we can nominate cut veterans too right?)

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

If I had to modify the Rest I would put the Explosion move in place. The animation and effect would be the same.

 

[Dig Dug]

I don't have much to add, but I'll chime in with a few points.

-I'd be more than fine if we got rid of rollout altogether in favor of a fairy move, but if not at the very least let her be able to act if she hits something. This video still haunts me.
-Uthrow or bthrow ought to be kill throws.
-I was never a fan of her Final Smash. The fairy z-move would make a nice replacement, though with a few creative liberties, I think perish song would make a cool choice. ...Well, as long as she doesn't kill herself with it, too.

Voting for

 

[Zinith]

Finally, a non-Yoshi main who wants Yoshi to be talked about. Did jump into a parallel universe?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Okay vote recount

:5 Votes
: 3 Votes
: 2 Votes
: 1 Vote

So that's a TIE between Mewtwo and Yoshi .

I'll just have you guys decide which character we're gonna do. Gonna update the thread in 24 hours. 1 day to decide which character we're gonna take for the next week.

 

[Luminario]

for me~ I know more about him than Yoshi.

 

[Idon]

Mewtwo. Love myself some pokken

 

[Deleted member]

Sure, I'll vote for myself

 

[Zinith]

I think my vote is quite obvious...


...............

But seriously it's Yoshi

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

I have to vote again, is that it? I nominate Mewtwo.

 

[Diddy Kong]

4 votes against 1.. Sorry Yoshi fans, the new character of the week is MEWTWO!

Mewtwo, the 150th Pokemon, clone of Mew and original Top Tier of the Legendary Pokemon. Discuss potential moveset changes for the character till next week Tuesday (which is E3, realisitcally.. we'll probably discuss him till later).

 

[Idon]

I'd love it if when you charged your Shadow Ball all the way to max, it turns into a hyper beam.

 

[Luminario]

Someone ages ago on this site mentioned letting Mewtwo attack after Teleport to get another hit in at the end of strings and I still think that would be a pretty cool idea.
Also remove Disable, it's just not useful in any fight. Instead of Disable, add in Future Sight as a delayed psychic explosion about 1 Mewtwo away from him in front.

 

[Deleted member]

So I love the way Mewtwo controls and it just really speaks to me for some reason. There isn't a whole lot I'd change (although I miss Shadow Ball damaging while it charges) and they actually fixed a lot in the tranisition from Melee-->Sm4sh.

However, if Sakurai actually went all in with custom moves this time, it would allow for us to customize Mewtwo with any number of other special attacks. Here are some potential ideas:
Neutral Customs:
Hyper Beam - thanks to Idon : it doesn't do anything unless fully charged, at which point you can release a powerful beam.
Aura Sphere - same as Lucario's, and I guess this way we can have the damaging charge move back
Focus Blast - a shorter range attack that can be charged but not reflected
Side Customs:
Swift - Mewtwo throws out star-shaped projectiles that home in on targets. Not very powerful though.
Psywave - similar to Game & Watch's Judge, it launches a short-range projectile of variable power (but not as powerful as Judge)
Barrier - Mewtwo throws up a barrier similar to Palutena's Reflect, but it just blocks attacks. Lasts slightly longer than Reflect, and can be broken.
Up Customs:
Aerial Ace - some sort of flying attack, maybe similar to Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop
Psycho Boost - a damaging attack similar in concept to Extreme Speed but not as fast and does more damage.
Telekinesis - similar to Villager's Balloon Trip, Mewtwo can freely levitate to easily return to the stage.
Down Customs:
Future Sight - like Luminario suggested, a delayed psychic attack in front of Mewtwo.
Miracle Eye - instead of disabling an opponent, it sort of 'tags' them for a short period. Whlie tagged, that opponent's attempts to shield or spot/air dodge will be unsuccessful for Mewtwo's next attack.
Laser Focus - this move does not need to connect with anyone, but takes a couple seconds to finish, and Mewtwo can be interrupted while using it. If successful, Mewtwo's next attack will do more damage.

And yes I also think it's a shame we didn't get 3 custom moves for each special as originally planned. Most of these would use the same animation so that simplifies things, but I don't think it should necessarily be a rule that animations can't be different (in fact some animations were slightly altered already, such as Ganondorf's Warlock Blade). I just really hope custom moves return and it was such a heartbreak to see Mewtwo release but with no custom specials, an unfortunate trend that continued. I would have paid money for extra custom moves and costumes but that never happened either, sadly. And before I get off my soapbox, I believe that custom moves can really lengthen the life of Smash because it can make any character feel fresh, staving off the need to constantly add more and more characters in an already quite large roster. Ok I'm done now.
I nominate

 

[Diddy Kong]

Great ideas being thrown out already!

And yes, seen lots of sexy possibilities already with Mewtwo acting out of Teleport. Seems kinda broken in concept, but it wouldn't really break Mewtwo as he currently is build in Smash. Speaking, I mainly wish Mewtwo would be a bit heavier. At least as heavy as he was in Melee, as him being lighter than even Mr. Game & Watch is just bothersome. Rosalina has the same floating thing going for her, and she's heavier. So yeah, that's bad and needs fixing.

Disable is a tough one, it's hardly usable but it's been in his moveset since Melee. So am honestly not gonna expect too many changes altogheter. Was already hugely relieved that Confusion finally became useful. But my prefered change for Down B, especially now that Mewtwo is a feather weight, is some sort of Barrier type of move. That simply blocks enemies from advancing, much like a more permanent Palutena Side B. Can still be broken however. Would give Mewtwo more space to zone and throw a Shadow Ball.

I'd also like to see Psychic as Side B, which would act like a powered up Confusion and a ranged command grab. It wouldn't be very effective in a Free For All, but 1 on 1 it's deadly. It would have twice the range of Confusion, little more cool down but it would deal a lot of knockback and a satisfying animation to boot. The animation would let Mewtwo use his psychic powers for a strong throwing move, and it can be aimed much like a throw. Just downwards or forwards however, and it would have knockback similar to Bowser's Flying Slam.

I also really like the Hyper Beam idea!

Wish that his Forward Smash also would have a bigger energy ball at his palms. Would not only fit the animation and look more tough, but also be a better overall hitbox. If it gotta have the lag, it needs more power to boot.

Errr other than that... Maybe less tail based attacks? Yeah it's been said before, but still. Forward Tilt needs more power anyway. And I wouldn't mind a total new attack for U Air, especially if Mewtwo IS gonna act out of Teleport. I really wouldn't know what sort of animation would fit, but make it so that it has more knockback.

Also buff that jab and increase it's damage and hitbox. Neutral Air needs to do more damage.

And that's just about it I feel!

I nominate .

 

[Zinith]

Oh boy, one of my least favorite video game characters of all time and one of the reasons I'm not into Pokemon all that much. Ah, but here we go.

Considering that he's already high tier in Smash 4, he's fine as far as frame data is concerned. But it wouldn't hurt to buff his jab depending on how the physics of the next game will go.

There are a lot of characters who have kill throws that don't make much sense (Captain Falcon, Marth) but Mewtwo is one of the only ones where it makes sense. But PLEASE just limit it to one this time around...

Well, that's all. Since I'm not a big Pokemon fan, moveset changes are beyond my comprehension for these characters.

I nominate again, unless he is already set for next week due to the tie breaker...
Grr, no one wants to talk about Yoshi...

 

[ryuu seika]

Mewtwo, the 150th Pokemon, clone of Mew...

I'm still confused as to how that works. How can 150 be a clone of 151?

I'd love it if when you charged your Shadow Ball all the way to max, it turns into a hyper beam.

What I want is a quantum mechanics inspired version, whering the vertical movement of the uncharged version is huge but, as it gets charged, the projectile becomes longer and stays closer to the middle of its path, potentially becoming a full on beam at full charge.

Also, can Up Smash get a slight animation change and ice properties to become Blizzard in referrence to his Stadium moveset?

 

[DjinnandTonic]

I think I'd change out Disable for his signature move Psystrike. Give it a melee-range disjointed hitbox to reference that it is a Special move that deals Physical damage. It might not be perfectly balanced, but the melee strike could possibly produce a bit of a projectile (think something like Guile's Sonic Boom) that does high shield damage, but lowish percent/knockback. Or perhaps the projectile takes over Disable's function of briefly stunning opponents, since that still nicely represents Mewtwo's Psychic typing tricks.

With Psystrike as a regular special, change his Final Smash's Mega Form from using Psystrike to using Psydisaster, based on its look in Pokken.

Also, if he could act out of Teleport, that would really increase his viability. Might be a bit too broken? Perhaps he can't Teleport twice in a row without touching the ground or being hit? But other aerials would be fair game. Not sure if that's enough of a balancing mechanism, but I would be okay with Mewtwo being kinda busted, given his role in the Pokemon franchise.

Shadow Mewtwo alt costume. Enough said.

If we're voting for stuff, I'd like Ike.

 

[ryuu seika]

If we want Mewtwo truly busted then I'd like to suggest even more reference to his moveset from when he was a Pokemon Stadium boss:

Up B - Psychic: A quicker PK Flash variant?
Neutral B - Amnesia: A self-buff like deep breathing that increases the damage and knockback of his elemental attacks, while reducing that of ones used against him.
Forward B - Shadowball/Psybeam: As mentioned above, a more erratic version of the existing move chargable into a full on super laser.
Down B - Rest: See Jiggs but remember, Mewtwo has a bigger body and less traction. It's gon' be pretty OP.

Up Smash - Blizzard: As mentioned above, a version of his Melee one with ice typing and freeze effect.
Forward Smash - Thunder Bolt: A longer range version of Lucario's with less knockback and the boosted hitstun of an electric type move.
Down Smash - Fire Blast: Imagine if his Melee one threw the same projectiles as Zelda's Side B.

Raw power with no real recovery but pleanty of utility. Every other move would be non-elemental.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Just a random scrub has already done an absolutely phenomenal job at going over various buffs he'd like Jigglypuff to have, to the point where I honestly feel like I may just be repeating some of his points, but as someone who adores playing Jigglypuff in nearly every game, I'd like to talk a bit too.

Spoiler

Attributes:

• Air Speed: 1.269 -> 1.35
• Air Friction: 0.0375 -> 0.05

Both of these are reverting them back to their Melee values, as well as placing Jigglypuff back into being 1st place in both categories. Jigglypuff's claim to fame in Smash is being a huge aerial threat, so increasing some of these traits help her get a leg up once again on her competition, as well as giving her niche as "the aerial fighter" back.

• Air Dodge: 35 (FAF) -> 32 (FAF)

Currently, Jigglypuff shares the same air dodge speed as a lot of heavyweights, which doesn't make a whole ton of sense, considering the lightweight nature of her character. Shortening the amount of lag her air dodge has not only improves her defensive options, something she could most certainly use, as well as falling more in line with other light weight characters, such as Game and Watch.

• Jumpsquat: 6 frames -> 4 frames

Her jumpsquat falls in somewhat of a similar spot as her air dodge, as in it falls more in line with heavy weights, rather than more lightweight characters. The adjustment to 4 frames not only allows her to get into the air quicker, which is something she could most definitely make use of, but it also falls in line with Kirby, a character with a very similar build to Jigglypuff. It just seems right to me that they would have the same jumpsquat speed.

• Aerial Jump Height: 19.786329 -> 21

Considering Jigglypuff does not have a traditional recovery move like nearly every other character in the game, or a crazy double jump + an extra Up-B boost like Yoshi does, a small increase in her recovery would be appreciated, considering a lot of characters received recovery buffs in Smash 4, leaving Jigglypuff out in the dust once again. A height of 21 still keeps her in last place, right behind Kirby, but also gives her recovery as well as her overall air time a bit of a boost.

• Air Release: absolute garbage -> not garbage

When grabbed, Jigglypuff nearly always gets air released due to her small structure. However, when released in the air, Jigglypuff is launched at an angle that doesn't put a whole lot of distance between her and her opponent. Having more distance between her and her opponent when released would prevent kill confirms that only she faces like in the link posted.

In terms of other attributes, such as her ground speeds, initial jump height, shield sizes, tractions, etc., I feel like they aren't really worth changing much. Jigglypuff isn't meant to be a ground fighter, so it makes sense for her ground-based attributes to be some of the worst in the game.

Ground / Grabs:

• Up Smash: 46 (FAF), active frames: 16-19 -> 45 (FAF), active frames: 7-10
• Down Smash: 49 (FAF), active frames: 14-15 -> 48 (FAF), active frames: 9-10
• Forward Smash: 50 (FAF), active frames: 16-24 -> 44 (FAF), active frames: 12-20

Like I said, Jigglypuff's never been a great ground fighter, so I think keeping her mostly unchanged in this field is fine. However, a lot of these are just changed back to their Melee forms, where they have just a few frames less of lag, as well as coming out a bit faster.

• Up Throw: 110 (BKB) -> 70 (BKB)
• Down Throw: 100 (BKB) -> 60 (BKB)

A decrease in terms of Jigglypuff's up throw's and down throw's knockback allow for the moves to be able to become combo-starters, keeping her opponents closer to her than usual.

Aerials:

• Up Air: 45 (FAF) -> 38 (FAF)
• Back Air: 40 (FAF), active frames: 12-13 -> 39 (FAF), active frames: 9-10
• Forward Air: active frames: 8-20 -> active frames: 7-22
• Down Air: 53 (FAF), active frames: 7-32 (multihit) -> 49 (FAF), active frames: 5-30 (multihit)

A lot of the changes I would make to Jigglypuff's aerials are simply in the form of frame data. A lot of these frame datas have been changed to better reflect Jigglypuff's frame data as it was in Melee, without any of the crazy disjoints. This change allows these moves to both come out and end faster, allowing for Jigglypuff to get more stuff done while in the air.

Rest and Pound:

• Rest: active frames: 2-4 -> active frame: 1, damaged healed: 5% (over time)

Rest comes out frame 1 again, just like in Melee. Unlike in Melee, the current damage Rest does in Smash 4 seems to be fine, being able to reliably kill characters around the ~60-70% mark, which seems a bit more fair than its iteration in Melee. Alongside that, Rest now heals a short amount over time, just like how the move works within the Pokemon games.

• Pound: active frames: 46 (FAF), active frames: 13-28 -> 45 (FAF), active frames: 12-27, Rising Pound returns

Everything about Pound is a frame quicker, being akin to how the move worked in Melee. Alongside that, Rising Pound from Melee returns as well, allowing Jigglypuff some more horizontal recovery.

Sing:

Unlike every other move at this point, I'd like Sing to get a complete rework, because it has been absolute butt for four games now. So, I've decided to turn it into a moving projectile, seen by my brilliant Photoshop:
View attachment 146647

This new 'Sing' projectile would travel at a very slow speed, slower than any projectile currently in the game, to the point where Jigglypuff could move faster than it in the air. Upon coming into contact with an opponent:

• If opponent is on the ground: Opponent falls asleep.
• If opponent is in the air: Opponent will be paralyzed for a short while (as if hit by Zero Suit Samus' Neutral-B), and then be knocked up a short distance vertically.

I feel like turning Sing into a projectile would solve numerous issues for Jigglypuff:

• Jigglypuff no longer lacks a projectile
• Makes Sing less garbage
• Gives her more options (ex: use Sing on the ground, hover above it in the air, opponent has to choose between fighting Jigglypuff or falling asleep / another option to punish foes in the air / sets up for more combos / etc.)

Rollout + Play Rough:

Also another changed special of Jigglypuff's, but isn't as much of a change as Sing was.

Rollout would work like normal, but would now have some new super armor to protect from weak projectiles and some Smash attacks. However, the real main event happens when Jigglypuff comes into contact with an opponent. Play Rough would activate, trapping the opponent for a short while, and then launching them as usual. Play Rough would be able to activate through shields as well, so the only way to avoid the attack would to be to hop over it or spotdodge.

Here's an example of how it would work, through my wonderful Photoshop and narrative crafting skills once more:
View attachment 146648

Jigglypuff: "I'm coming to get you, Kirby!"
Kirby: "I will just shield! You will do nothing to me!"

View attachment 146649
Jigglypuff: "Nice try! Play Rough can go throw shields!"
Kirby: "Oh no! I am currently being trapped for a short amount of time, as if I were to be caught in something like Cloud's Side-B or Marth's Side-B!"

Jigglypuff: "Get out of here!"
Kirby: "Curse you, Jigglypuff!"
​

Upon coming out of Play Rough / Rollout, Jigglypuff wouldn't be put in her helpless state.

Doing something like this would:

• Fix a lot of problems currently associated with Rollout (being put into helpless state after move finishes or makes contact, being easy to interrupt, being easy to avoid by just shielding)
• Gives Jigglypuff some Fairy-type flair she's currently lacking in Smash, despite recently becoming a Fairy-type in Gen VI

Final Smash:
Just give her Peach's current Final Smash and give Peach something new. Sleep is Jigglypuff's thing.

TL;DR: Give Jigglypuff her old air speed and some improved aerial-based attributes, fix up some of her frame data, and make Rollout / Sing less butt.

Or at least, that's how I would fix up Jigglypuff.

A bit late, but this is beautiful. Please do more narrative photoshops like this for explaining everyone's move changes you'd make. I'm not even sure I like all the changes you made, but the presentation was top-tier so now I support it.

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

Maybe my favorite Pokémon of all time. I also like Mew, Pikachu, and Ditto. And that's a summary, of course. I believe that ALL characters that have a counter should have, at least, different motion options for it. Just like Palutena has. I also do not like his tail movements. I agree that it would be perfect for them to invest in his grabs. Maybe they could even create a third type of grab: A Magic / Psych grab. For characters like Palutena, Rosalina, Zelda, Ness, Lucas, Robin, and who else fits into it. A more remote grab without the negative effect of the chain grab; but with some other negative effect.
Maybe Final Smash could be changed. I think at least the Mega Mewtwo should be X; one who is a psychic type and a fighter.
Unfortunately, as I have not until today (!), the opportunity to play with him, even in the Melee era, I do not really feel very apt to give many opinions. But... I can say that the change I would most like to see in this character, by far (!), Would be in its animation. More specifically on your Idle. Why (no, seriously) WHY ?! Why does the Mewtwo not float inches from the ground, arms crossed facing the opponent ?! At most switching to a posture with arms lowered, pointed at the opponent, and sometimes one or two at the head. That would be a perfect change. Even if it affected his gameplay, the team MUST put that into the game.
Perhaps attacking with psychic blows represented by effects without even uncrossing the arms or looking away. Of course it would not be all the moves. At most, I do not know, the main combo, and at most others like the jab, and one or two tilts.

Edit: I nominate

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I want some actual fight moves for the characters!

 

[PeridotGX]

I don't think Mewtwo needs major changes. Just make him a little heavier and maybe rename some of the specials (Why is Mewtwo using Confusion and Teleport again?)

Nominating Yoshi.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Vote count


7 Votes
: 4 Votes
: 3 Votes
: 2 Votes
: 1 Vote

Glad to see the thread more active again!

And yes Yoshi is indeed all but confirmed to win the nomination round of this week. But hey, you never know! Character loyalty pays of!

Shamefully we are not gonna be able to discuss Link before E3 however... I have an idea we're gonna see his whole moveset already if the game has a demo playable. We'd likely know his moveset before we can actually discuss it.

Oh well.

 

[Just a random scrub]

I don’t really have much to say for Mewtwo. I’m not a Mewtwo main or anything like that, and I got most of this from reading his Smashwiki page, so take these with several grains of salt. I don't know much about him in the games either, so these are purely balance changes.

Spoiler: My personal changes to Mewtwo's moveset

I nerfed him very slightly, like I did Mario, but I think I'm much better at coming up with buffs than nerfs, as I haven't fully decided my formula for nerfs. I decided to just make his flaws a bit more prominent overall for more consistent counterplay. Thankfully, though, Mewtwo is a character who only needs minor changes from what I know about him, so I didn't have to go crazy, just change a few moves.

General

• Mewtwo’s second dashing speed buff has been undone (2.05 → 1.9).
• Slightly slower air speed (1.25 → 1.2)
• Some of his bad hitboxes that haven’t been patched out have been fixed.

Ground Attacks

• Dash attack has more ending lag (FAF 39 → 42).
• Forward smash has slightly more startup (Frame 19 → 21).
• Mewtwo’s up smash is slower (FAF 44 → 50).
• Down Smash is slower (Frame 21 → 23)

Air Attacks

• Forward aerial has a different launch angle (50 → 84)

Grab/throws

• Standing and dash grabs have noticeably decreased range, making them harder to utilize consistently. This is because his grab game is one of his best traits, and his throws are already balanced enough, so I figure a nerf to his grab range would be the fairest option.
• Floor attacks now have an electrical effect.

Special moves

• The recoil from releasing a fully charged Shadow Ball in midair is even greater now, making it better for boosting Mewtwo back onstage if he’s facing the right direction, but at the same time places him in even more danger if facing the wrong direction. The projectiles are also tossed a bit slower (Frame 23 → 25). Finally, the hitbox when charging has been re-added.
• Teleport no longer leaves Mewtwo helpless,and it is easier to travel across the ground with it, but he can still only use it once, and it covers less distance. This furthers Mewtwo’s high-risk, high reward nature; now he’s even better at onstage combos, but he has a harder time making it back onstage without his double jump.

Oh yeah, and include Armored Mewtwo as an alt, just like Project M did.

Voting Yoshi, because he's obviously gonna win regardless.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Voting Yoshi, because he's obviously gonna win regardless.

Not sure you wanna vote up another character? Cause it feels like throwing your vote away.. But it's your choice!

Also I wouldn't want Mewtwo nerfed honestly. I'd much rather have the rest of the cast buffed. With that being said, it suits Mewtwo to be more powerful than average and be amongst the best. In his source games, he's a absolute beast.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Not sure you wanna vote up another character? Cause it feels like throwing your vote away.. But it's your choice!

Also I wouldn't want Mewtwo nerfed honestly. I'd much rather have the rest of the cast buffed. With that being said, it suits Mewtwo to be more powerful than average and be among st the best. In his source games, he's a absolute beast.

Ehhh... I'd like to nerf as few characters as possible, and spend much more time on buffs myself (mostly because buffs are my specialty), but even if Smash 4 is the most balanced game in the Smash series, I still feel as if a few nerfs must be given to put everyone on the same level. But I am going for the minimal amounts of nerfs I can (Mewtwo's in fact the lowest character on the current tier list that I nerfed, and he's still definitely a high tier, just more risky); only characters above Marth and Ryu got nerfed (so, only 10 characters got nerfed, and only very slightly), everyone else got buffed/was not changed. Just wanted to shed a bit of insight on my balancing philosophy.

(About the vote thing...... Huh, you make sense. **** it, I'm going to vote for Mii Brawler, cause I used to play him a bit)

 

[Crystanium]

Oh, it's Mewtwo! All right, time to change a few things. What annoys me is that Mewtwo is using Ghost-type attacks, rather than Psychic-type attacks. My ideas aren't going to be entirely different from what Mewtwo is capable of, since he's pretty good as is for the most part. Instead, I'd make quite a few aesthetic appearances and rename the attacks. I know Mewtwo can use non-psychic attacks, but I'd prefer he use only psychic attacks in Super Smash Bros.

Neutral B - Psystrike
A psychic variant of Shadow Ball could be Psystrike.

Side B - Reflect
You could probably compare this special to Palutena's Reflect Barrier, except Mewtwo would still make the same animation, but have a rectangular reflector do the countering. I understand it's supposed to be Confusion (a psychic attack) and that it's supposed to represent, "x attack itself in confusion", but that has to do with one attacking him- or herself, rather than having some projectile reversed.

Down B - Future Sight or Psywave
As if we need another counter, but this could work similarly to Shulk's Visions. Or, Mewtwo could retain his appearance while shooting psychic waves from his eyes. Since it deals a random amount of damage, perhaps instead of using Mewtwo's level, the damage could be based on Mewtwo's damage.

Neutral A (aerial) - Psychic
Something tells me this is supposed to be Thunder Shock or some kind of Electric-type attack. Sure, it won't be a multi-hit attack, but it could knock the opponent away from Mewtwo.

Forward+A (aerial) - Psycho Cut
Shadow Claw? Why not give Mewtwo Psycho Cut? It deals critical damage like Shadow Claw, with the difference being that it's psychic, not ghost. Psycho Cut's description says, "The user tears at the foe with blades formed by psychic power. It has a high critical-hit ratio." Imagine seeing a purplish-pink claw made of psychic energy. Ouch!

Forward Throw - Psybeam
Instead of Shadow Ball, why not make Mewtwo shoot Psybeam?

Up+A (smash), Side+A (smash) and Down+A (smash)
Perhaps since all of these attacks generate a purple mist of some kind, they could all be the same kind of attack with different animations. Psyshock "materializes an odd psychic wave to attack the target."

 

[Deleted member]

snip

Well Shadow Ball may be a Ghost type move but it could be considered a signature move of Mewtwo considering he was the first to use it--in the first Pokemon Movie.

 

[PF9]

The only change Mewtwo really needs is Phillip Bartlett voicing him in the English release. He is very synonymous with the character in the Pokemon anime fandom.

 

[Idon]

Well Shadow Ball may be a Ghost type move but it could be considered a signature move of Mewtwo considering he was the first to use it--in the first Pokemon Movie.

I'd love it if Shadow Ball in Smash was this pitch black hole swirling with electricity instead of the generic purpley pink ball.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

The only change Mewtwo really needs is Phillip Bartlett voicing him in the English release. He is very synonymous with the character in the Pokemon anime fandom.

Phillip's dead.

 

[PF9]

Phillip's dead.

According to Wikipedia he's still alive.

 

[Katy Parry]

Archery? Seems reasonable honestly but there's a lot which they could use for Zelda. Personally I always wanted TP Zelda with the rapier she uses in the cutscene and also eventually used in Warriors. But this oppertunity has been passed.

Light Arrows as a Final Smash also seem extremely reasonable and I don't really see a reason to have this changed, only visually maybe.

I grew quite attached to the Godess Spells as her Specials especially since Skyward Sword where it's established that Zelda = Hylia. So her having the Spells of the other Godesses is extremely fitting even if they don't necessarily act like in Ocarina of Time. The Phantom Slash was a cute idea, but executed poorly. It should give her better walling options and it should be able to be used to cancel out projectiles (as say, Samus' Charge Shot or Missiles or Mewtwo's Shadow Ball) and as an approach option. She should definitely be less vurnable to projectiles than she currently is.

Her design is pretty damn poorly done cause of her being balanced innitially with having Sheik as part of HER moveset. Obviously this has resulted in people just sticking with Sheik and never switching between the characters at all, but it's weird that even with the separation, Zelda is still balanced statistically as Sheik's opposite which has lead for Sheik being the best character during most of Smash 4's lifespan and Zelda the absolute worst, which was also the case in Brawl.

People have argued that BotW Zelda, the version we're just about 97% are guranteed to get, should use the Champion Abilities or the Sheikah Slate abilities in her moveset. Am not 100% convinced that's a good option for her, but if you guys can make a good moveset out of it, am all ear.

Man I’ve missed you, we used to argue about Zelda and Sheik being separate. Lmfao remember I flipped on you. NO WAY THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN EVER

Lmfaoooo ohhh **** those were the days

 

[Diddy Kong]

Man I’ve missed you, we used to argue about Zelda and Sheik being separate. Lmfao remember I flipped on you. NO WAY THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN EVER

Lmfaoooo ohhh **** those were the days

Hahaha yes those where indeed the days! You switched usernames in the meanwhile? Cause sooo many people of those days did, hard to keep track on who's who.

But yeah, I argued they would be better off separated, and it happened. Still got disappointed however because I wanted Impa to be the separate Sheik, but oh well.

Anway seems the thread is now completely redundant with the fact we got ALL veterans ever revealed and Sakurai showcasing moveset differences. So that's a shame in terms of this thread's future.. luckily we DID predict a few changes that actually happened, like Ganondorf using his sword for Smash attacks.

I wanna thank all of you for the contributions along the way. Consider this thread inactive as of now.

 

[Zinith]

Didn't get to Yoshi.

****!!!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Didn't get to Yoshi.

****!!!

Well we COULD potentiall continue but it wouldn't make sense to discuss characters who's moveset we've seen for 100%. And most characters have showcased enough wherever changes where applied so...

 

[Zinith]

Well we COULD potentiall continue but it wouldn't make sense to discuss characters who's moveset we've seen for 100%. And most characters have showcased enough wherever changes where applied so...

I understand

Although Yoshi wasn't showcased all that much...