The REAL differences between Pit and Dark Pit.

[kyoskue]

Heh, thanks. How about Dsmash and Dspecial?

I can't tell 100% for certain, but it seems like most any attack that can't already slide will stop the momentum.
Jab, up Smash, and down special slide, but fTilt and fSmash seem to cancel the momentum just like how pivot tilting and smashing works normally. Perfect pivot grab is just your regular grab animation, so it comes out and ends much more quickly.
I *think* that both dTilt and dSmash cancel the momentum, but they both involve feet movement. Combine that with their shorter slide distance and it makes it difficult to tell.
In either case, if it does slide its so short that its negligible except in the most extreme cases.

 

[kyoskue]

By the way, I edited the OP some because I was able to clarify a few unknown damage percents.
Also may have potentially found a change or two from the update (nothing major at all, just weird).

 

[LancerStaff]

I can't tell 100% for certain, but it seems like most any attack that can't already slide will stop the momentum.
Jab, up Smash, and down special slide, but fTilt and fSmash seem to cancel the momentum just like how pivot tilting and smashing works normally. Perfect pivot grab is just your regular grab animation, so it comes out and ends much more quickly.
I *think* that both dTilt and dSmash cancel the momentum, but they both involve feet movement. Combine that with their shorter slide distance and it makes it difficult to tell.
In either case, if it does slide its so short that its negligible except in the most extreme cases.

A good way to be absolutely sure about the Dtilt and smash is to try on Pokemon Stadium's ice, although it doesn't really matter if you can't see it normally.

Did you charge the Dsmash though? I remember something about charging not stopping momentum.

 

[kyoskue]

A good way to be absolutely sure about the Dtilt and smash is to try on Pokemon Stadium's ice, although it doesn't really matter if you can't see it normally.

Did you charge the Dsmash though? I remember something about charging not stopping momentum.

Well, I've bern trying with Captain Falcon now because he has the longest one, but I can't seem to get him to slide while charging down Smash.

Keep in mind that I'm pretty new to this too, there may just be set frames where charging it slides, or any other number of factors that we aren't 100% on yet.

It could be that the player that made the video does PP slightly different than I do too.
For example, during the actual pivot part I tend to make a sharp "L" motion similar in shape to the logo on Ash's hat from early seasons of the Pokémon anime. It stops me from accidentally running and has enough upward direction that barely sliding the stick to the left will let me perfect pivot fine without needing to flick the stick.
Its possible that this input is affecting the momentum differently than flicking it would.
I'm also using a Wii U Pro controller (haven't gotten around to getting a Gamecube controller adaptor yet), so wireless lag is another thing that could potentially be affecting my momentum.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Base Damage:

Fsmash 5%, 10%

Dsmash 12%, 10% (sourspot)

Usmash 3%, 2%, 8%

Fair: First hits - 1.5%

Nair: First hits - 0.7%

Arm angles: 50 degrees, 80 degrees

------------------------------------

You're welcome.

Edit: Aerial Side B has the same angle for Dark Pit.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh, and ftilt Base Knockback is 15 for Dark Pit and 40 for Pit.

That's it.

 

[kyoskue]

Base Damage:

Fsmash 5%, 10%

Dsmash 12%, 10% (sourspot)

Usmash 3%, 2%, 8%

Fair: First hits - 1.5%

Nair: First hits - 0.7%

Arm angles: 50 degrees, 80 degrees

------------------------------------

You're welcome.

Edit: Aerial Side B has the same angle for Dark Pit.

I appreciate the help, most of my inconsistent data was due to how quickly Pit enters his "charging state" for Smash attacks.
Although your nAir values still appear to be wrong, as 8.49% shouldn't add an extra 1% on even numbered hits, but it does.

As for my angles for the Arms, I eyeballed it and had 0º as the vertical divider rather than the horizontal, hence Pit's angle having been written as 10º and not 80º. I was still off by 10º on Dark Pit's grounded, the aerial one I dunno what happened. I assume that I tried to just give a general trajectory rather than the initial launch angle for some reason.

In any case, thanks for the help Aerodrome, its appreciated.
Also, nice avatar. ;D

Oh, and ftilt Base Knockback is 15 for Dark Pit and 40 for Pit.

That's it.

I don't have any data on Base Knockback at all currently, and don't know what the numbers actually refer to (other than higher=stronger), as I have nothing else to compare them to.
Is there any way that I can actively test BK and frame data in-game, or is it just hard data from the game's files?
I'm asking because I don't currently have the means to perform the latter.

Edit:
Forgot to ask if the Base Knockback is the same for both normal and sweetspot hits.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Both of them are 40 for Pit and 15 for Dark PIt.

 

[kyoskue]

Both of them are 40 for Pit and 15 for Dark PIt.

Thanks.

Is there a way to gauge Base Knockback through gameplay though?
I wouldn't mind adding base knockback for all attacks, but giving me a number with no significance doesn't exactly help.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sorry are you asking for all the numbers or what role they play?

 

[kyoskue]

Sorry are you asking for all the numbers or what role they play?

A combination of both, I suppose?

I guess that what I'm saying is thatI understand that HIGHER Base Knockback translates to GREATER distance, but...
What is the distance of a Basic Knockback of 1? Compared to 2?

Does Pit's fTilt having a BK of 40 compared to Dark Pit's 15 mean that Pit's hits almost 3 times (15*3=45) as far as Dark Pit's?
Or is Base Knockback merely a hidden value that is used when determining actual Knockback in some fancy equation that makes use of a gravity multiplier, opponent's damage, and the Rage mechanic, along with possibly other various mechanics?
How would I go about figuring out the Base Knockback of attacks?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The hidden value one lol

At work atm can't expand more, but basically it's the minimum amount of knockback that a move does. 0 will take you nowhere but 300 would instakill under most circumstances at 0%

 

[kyoskue]

The hidden value one lol

At work atm can't expand more, but basically it's the minimum amount of knockback that a move does. 0 will take you nowhere but 300 would instakill under most circumstances at 0%

As expected.
As a frame of reference, how strong is a BK of 50 compared to 100?
Alternatively, do we know the actual knockback formula yet?

And thanks again for taking your time out to help.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This one isn't completely accurate but it's the best we have:

Without Weight Dependent Set Knockback

((((((v+d)/10)+(((v+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b

Variables
v = Victim Percentage (After being hit)
d = Damage
w = Weight
g = Knockback Growth
b = Base Knockback

With Weight Dependent Set Knockback

(((((10/10)+((10*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b

Variables
d = Weight Dependent Set Knockback
w = Weight
g = Knockback Growth
b = Base Knockback

Rage fits into this somehow, likely as a form of multiplier either on knockback growth, base knockback, both or perhaps neither of them.

 

[kyoskue]

Formula

Ah, thanks.
Is there a thread with listed weights and whatnot somewhere?
That way I can stop bugging you about this.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ah, thanks.
Is there a thread with listed weights and whatnot somewhere?
That way I can stop bugging you about this.

Oh, I just so HAPPEN to have a link to that too.

Wow cool wow, http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

Thanks to the handsome individual who created that weight list!

 

[kyoskue]

Oh, I just so HAPPEN to have a link to that too.

Wow cool wow, http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

Thanks to the handsome individual who created that weight list!

Handsome indeed.

May all of their days be merry and their favorite series' season finales be free of annoying cliff hangers.

 

[UltraMan21]

It's odd knowing that dark pits side b is a better killing move then pits side b in the wii u version, depending where you are on the field. Plus does dark pit moves kill faster? I heard he kills a few percentages lower then pit, but it could be a potiental difference

 

[kyoskue]

It's odd knowing that dark pits side b is a better killing move then pits side b in the wii u version, depending where you are on the field. Plus does dark pit moves kill faster? I heard he kills a few percentages lower then pit, but it could be a potiental difference

I haven't gotten into all of the kill percents yet, but they should be exactly equal besides their Bow, Arms, and fTilts.

Pit's side B is better at guaranteeing a K.O. because it K.O.s off of the top, so it'll work regardless of where it is used once they're at kill percent, so that's the flip side of it.
Pit's fTilt K.O.s a lot easier than Dark Pit's as well.

Edit:
Here's a guide to Pit and Dark Pit's K.O. percents:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...nd-technique-guide-all-important-ko-s.372354/

 

[Ohio86]

Odd thought with nothing to provoke this question but a hunch...Has anyone checked if Rage effects both Pits equally?

 

[LancerStaff]

Odd thought with nothing to provoke this question but a hunch...Has anyone checked if Rage effects both Pits equally?

Nice idea, but I'm pretty sure we figured out that rage was the same for all fighters.

 

[kyoskue]

Nice idea, but I'm pretty sure we figured out that rage was the same for all fighters.

Indeed.

I'm still unlocking specials, so I haven't checked ALL of their moves yet

 

[LancerStaff]

Indeed.

I'm still unlocking specials, so I haven't checked ALL of their moves yet

I have 'em all on SSBU, so I can test things if you want me too.

...When I get the chance. I really should be asleep right now for the parties tomorrow (today).

I did check out the important ones though. DP's arrow customs are still more powerful, (and better,) and impact Orbitars are the same for each. Amplifying doesn't have damage or HP to speak of, so...

 

[kyoskue]

I have 'em all on SSBU, so I can test things if you want me too.

...When I get the chance. I really should be asleep right now for the parties tomorrow (today).

I did check out the important ones though. DP's arrow customs are still more powerful, (and better,) and impact Orbitars are the same for each. Amplifying doesn't have damage or HP to speak of, so...

Mostly to see if Pit and Dark Pit's unique knockback angles are the same between their alt Arms, or if they're different.
I haven't looked up any alts yet, so I honestly don't know anything about them.

 

[Makorel]

Interception Arm has the same knockback angle as Upperdash Arm, and Electrocut Arm has the same knockback angle as Electroshock Arm. Quickdash Arm and Quickshock Arm both have the same knockback angle as Electroshock Arm. Not sure what any of these moves have over default Upperdash Arm, except for maybe the situational use custom 3 has against Rosalina.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Why isn't this post listed as a guide or something. It has important information that a majority of people still don't yet know.

 

[kyoskue]

Why isn't this post listed as a guide or something. It has important information that a majority of people still don't yet know.

While I appreciate the suggestion, I personally don't think that its enough to be qualified as a guide yet.

I'm not exactly an expert on the Pit's competitive play, and I havent really done much with them in some time. Besides that, I'm currently busy with a lot of real life stuff and don't have the time to work on it. Once I can give it the time and effort it needs I might redo the whole thing and make a real guide out of it.

 

[ZobmieRules]

Small correction: Dark Pit gets an extra hop no matter where he is, as long as the move was used in the air.

 

[kyoskue]

Small correction: Dark Pit gets an extra hop no matter where he is, as long as the move was used in the air.

Are we talking about his Final Smash or what?

 

[ZobmieRules]

Are we talking about his Final Smash or what?

I suppose I should have clarified. Yes. If Dark Pit uses his Final Smash in the air, he gets a free jump at the end. I don't believe there's an exception to this rule.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

So there's pass more time so have people discovered more diferences?

 

[kyoskue]

So there's pass more time so have people discovered more diferences?

As far as I know... nope. Well, besides obvious stuff non-gameplay stuff like victory videos and trophies.

 

[Wintropy]

So there's pass more time so have people discovered more diferences?

They're about as similar as they always were.

There's more matchup info, though, which does differ slightly between both characters.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

They're about as similar as they always were.

There's more matchup info, though, which does differ slightly between both characters.

Give me, Give me

 

[Wintropy]

Give me, Give me

The most obvious one to me is Rosaluma. Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm is better for KOing Luma, since it launches at an angle and can dispatch it off the stage pretty swiftly. Conversely, it's poorer for KOing Rosalina herself, as Upperdash Arm kills off the ceiling by default.

It's a minor difference, but it's a huge deal in (what I consider to be) a very difficult matchup.

 

[UltraMan21]

Dark pit has the better horizontal game, pit has the better vertical game. That can seriously effect the match up game and competetive scene. Even the arrows are based around that in a way. If you use pits arrows only horizontally, and compare it to dark pits arrows, which one is better? Dark pits of course, but if you tried to use dark pits arrows vertically, which one is better? Pits, since he has an easier time move it.

 

[Wintropy]

Dark pit has the better horizontal game, pit has the better vertical game. That can seriously effect the match up game and competetive scene. Even the arrows are based around that in a way. If you use pits arrows only horizontally, and compare it to dark pits arrows, which one is better? Dark pits of course, but if you tried to use dark pits arrows vertically, which one is better? Pits, since he has an easier time move it.

I don't think this applies to the overall moveset, though, just those two particular specials.

It still makes a difference, but it's not exactly earth-shaking stuff.

 

[UltraMan21]

Well yeah, but it's still true. DP has the better horizontal game, and pit has the better vertical game.

I don't think this applies to the overall moveset, though, just those two particular specials.

It still makes a difference, but it's not exactly earth-shaking stuff.

 

[LancerStaff]

Borrowing a friend's GC adaptor and I'm messing around with Wavebirds. For those who don't know, a Wavebird GC controller can be sync'd with multiple ports and can essentially become Ice Climbers mode for any two characters. This means I can actively compare frame data.

Normal moves are the same, no surprise. As are the default specials.

Funnily enough, the taunts take the exact same amount of time to do.

Arrow speed on default is basically the same, but Pit's last longer and thus go further.

First interesting difference I've found is that Dark Pit's Guiding Bow can be charged a moment longer then Pit's. Any other level of charge has the same frame data. Pit's definitely go faster, and again further.

Piercing Bow can also be charged a moment longer with DP. Pit's last a few frames longer and go very slightly further. Pittwo's are superior for the damage.

Sadly, no other custom move has any noticeable difference. Next I'm going to do some comparisons between customs (namely between default and Guiding) and it'll be posted in the appropriate topics.

 

[kyoskue]

Borrowing a friend's GC adaptor and I'm messing around with Wavebirds. For those who don't know, a Wavebird GC controller can be sync'd with multiple ports and can essentially become Ice Climbers mode for any two characters. This means I can actively compare frame data.

Normal moves are the same, no surprise. As are the default specials.

Funnily enough, the taunts take the exact same amount of time to do.

Arrow speed on default is basically the same, but Pit's last longer and thus go further.

First interesting difference I've found is that Dark Pit's Guiding Bow can be charged a moment longer then Pit's. Any other level of charge has the same frame data. Pit's definitely go faster, and again further.

Piercing Bow can also be charged a moment longer with DP. Pit's last a few frames longer and go very slightly further. Pittwo's are superior for the damage.

Sadly, no other custom move has any noticeable difference. Next I'm going to do some comparisons between customs (namely between default and Guiding) and it'll be posted in the appropriate topics.

Thanks for the headsup, been too busy to work on this, unfortunately.