The REAL differences between Pit and Dark Pit.

[LancerStaff]

Found something new (to me, at least):
During Dark Pit's side taunt,; after he's done spinning the blades, just as he slashes to cross them and says "Watch out!" (in the US version) he becomes invincible for a split second just like when you perform a spot dodge.
Not exactly game changing, but pretty cool nonetheless.

As far as I know, was found out by a GameFaqs user called DracoXIV.

Heh, that's pretty silly. Reminds me of how Yoshi dodges quick projectiles with his side taunt. It might be the case here too.

And I remember the name DracoXIV, funnily. Might of been an old KIU player, but I don't think I've fought him since all I'd ever do is lurk GFAQS. Pretty sure I know where he got the name though.

 

[hell-dew]

i use Pit and DP interchangable I found Pit to be better then DP with his Side B being a better kill move by a fair margin but aside from that i usually use DP on FD while Pit is better on other stages with arrows covering platforms and killing off the top easier

 

[kyoskue]

Most people tend to prefer Electoshock's trajectory over Upperdash's.

 

[Conda]

Wrote about this on the competitive impressions thread

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-80#post-17921910

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Pretty much they are the same only Pit is better at killing and has the better projectile? What was the point in adding him? At least the melee clones had huge differences. Dissapointed that Sakurai didn't give him any major noticeable differences like the Melee clones did.

 

[kyoskue]

As I said before, Pt's better at vertical K.O.s with his Upperdash Arm while Dark Pit's better at horizontal K.O.s with his Electroshock Arm.
Besides that, Dark Pit trades projectile maneuverability for an increase in projectile damage.
Finally, while Pit's Forward Tilt is much better for K.O.s, Dark Pit's is probably better for use in combos.

I'll agree with you on the Melee thing, but at least Dr. Mario has the Melee Down Air and Doctor Tornado.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Pretty much they are the same only Pit is better at killing and has the better projectile? What was the point in adding him? At least the melee clones had huge differences. Dissapointed that Sakurai didn't give him any major noticeable differences like the Melee clones did.

Electroshock is a bit better for Edge Guarding, so that's nice.

I don't even miss the arrows. Pit and Dark Pit can easily afford to jump off stage to gimp opponents up close, thanks to their recovery.

 

[palkia19]

Pit seems to be superior here. But yeah, Dark Pit's electroarm is Little Mac's nightmare since it hits you at an angle instead of Pit's upperdash arm which hits Mac vertically.

 

[Kuro_Ikazuchiryu]

From my view Pit's arrows are better for combos, but DP's are better for zoning/racking damage. Feel free to disagree. Has anybody found an differences in the use of their moves?

 

[multisonicblast]

Perhaps I can shed a bit more light on some of their differences. First I want to talk about their Side B:

Now we already know that Dark Pit's knocks the opponent at an angle, unlike Pit's that knocks them straight up, and does %0.5 more damage than Pit's. Now as far as KO power goes, Pit's was able to kill Mario at %142 earliest on Battlefield (Normal) while Dark Pit's was able to kill Mario at %117 earliest on Battlefield (Normal) when Mario was right at the edge of the stage. When Mario was a bit farther from the edge of the stage, he needed to be at a higher damage percent to KO, but the move still KO'ed earlier than Pit's Upperdash Arm (the distance from the edge makes a difference). So Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm is the better KO move potentially, but Pit's Upperdash Arm is more consistent.

During online play, I noticed another interesting characteristic about Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm. After doing some testing, I found that while opponents are charging a smash attack, if they get hit by Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm, the knockback dramatically increases to the point where the even just the vertical knockback is significantly greater than Pit's. This happened three times when I played online and used Electroshock Arm; 1)star KO'ed Lil Mac at 97% on Corneria 2) star KO'ed Yoshi at 115% on Arena Ferox 3) star KO'ed Mario at 115% on Spirit Train. I don't have video footage for proof at the moment, nor do I know if Pit's Side b has a similar trait. More testing is required; perhaps someone else can verify if they're seeing the same thing. It's fairly situational, but it has helped me in a few matches and would be something different between Pit and Dark Pit. And competitive play does rely quite a bit on using Smash attacks.

I also want to point out one small thing about their arrows. In addition to the differences between their arrows that this thread already mentioned, for Dark Pit's charged arrows, you will begin to see hitstun (the colored trails on the opponents when they're hit) at a much earlier percentage than Pit's (Dark Pit - %140 vs. Mario, Pit - %169 vs. Mario). Not a huge thing, but if Dark Pit can hit enemies with charged arrows at viable KO percentages, that hitstun can help him move in for the kill. In general, I find Pit's uncharged arrows more useful since you can easily change directions with them, but Dark Pit's charged arrows to be more useful as charged arrows for both are much faster, so Pit's control will make it hard to know where the arrow will actually go.

Another thing I've noticed is the differences with some of their custom moves. It turns out that Dark Pit's Striking Flight does 0.5% more damage than Pit's (similar to their Side b) and KO's a little bit earlier than Pit's (Dark Pit's KO'ed Mario in the middle of Battlefield (Normal) at %155 while Pit's KO'ed Mario at %163 in the same scenario). Also Dark Pit's Piercing Bow is significantly stronger than Pit's in terms of knockback (KO'ed Mario at %171 on Battlefield (Normal) compared to Pit's KOing Mario at %191 on Battlefield (Normal), of course the usablity of this move is a different issue.

Also, I find Dark Pit *feels* a bit heavier/slower than Pit, more noticeably in the air. I'm not sure why though; I've verified that their running speed, falling speed, weight, and jump height are the same, but I can feel a difference between them in that Pit seems just a tad easier to control. Again, I don't know why this is the case, maybe it's attack speed or lag :S

Anywho, that's my input, hope it helps.

 

[Lavani]

Perhaps I can shed a bit more light on some of their differences. First I want to talk about their Side B:

Now we already know that Dark Pit's knocks the opponent at an angle, unlike Pit's that knocks them straight up, and does %0.5 more damage than Pit's. Now as far as KO power goes, Pit's was able to kill Mario at %142 earliest on Battlefield (Normal) while Dark Pit's was able to kill Mario at %117 earliest on Battlefield (Normal) when Mario was right at the edge of the stage. When Mario was a bit farther from the edge of the stage, he needed to be at a higher damage percent to KO, but the move still KO'ed earlier than Pit's Upperdash Arm (the distance from the edge makes a difference). So Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm is the better KO move potentially, but Pit's Upperdash Arm is more consistent.

During online play, I noticed another interesting characteristic about Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm. After doing some testing, I found that while opponents are charging a smash attack, if they get hit by Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm, the knockback dramatically increases to the point where the even just the vertical knockback is significantly greater than Pit's. This happened three times when I played online and used Electroshock Arm; 1)star KO'ed Lil Mac at 97% on Corneria 2) star KO'ed Yoshi at 115% on Arena Ferox 3) star KO'ed Mario at 115% on Spirit Train. I don't have video footage for proof at the moment, nor do I know if Pit's Side b has a similar trait. More testing is required; perhaps someone else can verify if they're seeing the same thing. It's fairly situational, but it has helped me in a few matches and would be something different between Pit and Dark Pit. And competitive play does rely quite a bit on using Smash attacks.

To the first point, the difference in KO power is rather stage dependent. Electroshock doesn't KO from the center of Battlefield Ω (and I assume any other FD-type, pretty sure they all have the same blast zones) until around 185% (KO sparks at 191% but lv3 Mario's consistently dying sooner), while Upperdash is still KOing at 142%. Outside of stage boundary discrepancies, the main draw to Electroshock over Upperdash is it sending at an angle that will get the opponent offstage and put Dark Pit in position to edgeguard, something he excels at.

The second bit isn't related to Electroshock, but is a general trait of smash attacks; characters take increased knockback if hit while charging a smash attack.

 

[multisonicblast]

To the first point, the difference in KO power is rather stage dependent. Electroshock doesn't KO from the center of Battlefield Ω (and I assume any other FD-type, pretty sure they all have the same blast zones) until around 185% (KO sparks at 191% but lv3 Mario's consistently dying sooner), while Upperdash is still KOing at 142%. Outside of stage boundary discrepancies, the main draw to Electroshock over Upperdash is it sending at an angle that will get the opponent offstage and put Dark Pit in position to edgeguard, something he excels at.

The second bit isn't related to Electroshock, but is a general trait of smash attacks; characters take increased knockback if hit while charging a smash attack.

Good point about the edge guarding. Also, I was previously unaware that characters took increased kickback when hit while charging smashes in general, thanks for pointing that out

 

[kyoskue]

I appreciate the increase in people searching for differences, thanks guys.
I actually only have about 1/2 of the game's custom moves unlocked, so any help there is great.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Tiny correction about percentages; Dark Pit's arrow does 4% uncharged, not 3.

 

[kyoskue]

Tiny correction about percentages; Dark Pit's arrow does 4% uncharged, not 3.

While I was technically wrong about the damage, so are you in this post.

I take it that you noticed that Dark Pit's Silver Bow does 4% in an actual fight and not in Training Mode, correct?
Because you get a damage boost the first time per life that you use an attack in this game.
Training Mode ignores this boost, showing the "real" damage.

I can still admit when I'm wrong, on further inspection Silver Bow's uncharged shot is 3.5% (it does 3% the first hit and 7% on the second) and fully charged do 10.5% (10%, 21%)
Pit's fully charged arrows also do 8.5%.

I'm going to renew my study and make sure we know the damage percentage for every move for both of these characters.

 

[kyoskue]

Fixed up first post with new info, will try to finish later.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also, I find Dark Pit *feels* a bit heavier/slower than Pit, more noticeably in the air. I'm not sure why though; I've verified that their running speed, falling speed, weight, and jump height are the same, but I can feel a difference between them in that Pit seems just a tad easier to control. Again, I don't know why this is the case, maybe it's attack speed or lag :S

Anywho, that's my input, hope it helps.

Pit and Dark Pit are equal in most aspects, including air and attack speed.

The second bit isn't related to Electroshock, but is a general trait of smash attacks; characters take increased knockback if hit while charging a smash attack.

Well, guess that explains the critical hit thingy that's been going around.

 

[ZephyrZ]

While I was technically wrong about the damage, so are you in this post.

I take it that you noticed that Dark Pit's Silver Bow does 4% in an actual fight and not in Training Mode, correct?

I saw it while attacking the Sandbag. In fact, I just checked, and it still says 4 when I attack the Sandbag. But in Training Mode is says 3, just as you said.

Huh. I guess the Sandbag rounds up or takes more damage or something?

 

[kyoskue]

Just tried attacking Sandbag in the Custom->Characters menu and it says 4 for both Pit and Dark Pit, even if it only does 3%.
I assume it rounds up, possibly in addition to taking more damage as Pit's arrows occasionally deal 4% to it while don't recall that in Training Mode.

I have one more theory as to what it might be, about to test my hypothesis.

Edit: Tested hypothesis, it was wrong, but the "pop-up" damage that Sandbag shows ALWAYS rounds up the damage that he receives to the nearest percent, and Pit DOES have decimal damage on his arrows.

 

[kyoskue]

By the way, I color-coded and reorganized the first post for convenience sake.

 

[kyoskue]

More accurate Palutena Bow and Silver Bow damage added, among other miscellaneous damage fixes.

 

[multisonicblast]

BTW Is Dark Pit's side taunt really a side step also? Someone on the thread brought it up, but I'm not really seeing it when he does the taunt, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Just curious to know.

 

[kyoskue]

Yes it is.
The side step starts after he finishes spining his blades until the end of the taunt, basically the whole duration of "Watch out!".

An easy way to see it is to go into Training Mode against a Level 9 Mario on a flat stage.
Set the speed to 1/4 and bait a Fireball, will probably take a few tries to see it, but I'm 100% certain of this.

 

[multisonicblast]

Thanks, took me a few tries but I finally got it. Man, that timing is hard to pull off.

 

[kyoskue]

No problem, glad I could help.

 

[a Link to the Forums]

Interesting. Great work kyoskue.

Wait, so if pretty much all of Dark Pit's moves are identical to Pit then where did this misconception that Dark pit has a better time killing than Pit? F-tilt is worse for killing with Dark Pit than Pit and Electroshock Arm is perhaps better for killing at the edges but Upperdash Arm is more consistent. Pit is even better gimping/edgeguarding than DP too due to arrows not being so fixed.

 

[kyoskue]

I assume that people are referring to Dark Pit's ability to knock foes over the edge of the stage with Electroshock Arm and then physically gimp them.
Pit and Dark Pit both have rather amazing off stage game, Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm works in tandem with this element of their character, allowing Dark Pit to get early K.O.s more easily.
On top of that, aerial Electroshock Arm sends at an even lower horizontal angle while simultaneously aiding his own horizontal recovery.

As for the arrows, Dark Pit's still have a pretty good range and a surprising amount of control near the end of their reach to boot. The smaller angling makes it easier to precisely poke with it because you won't try to use crazy acrobatics, and the shorter range helps a bit if you miss or get it reflected back at you.
Its almost like an aimable version of Falco's Blaster, and if you think of it like that rather than as a less mobile version of Pit's arrows then you'll realize its actually a very good projectile.

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey, anybody hear about the update? Might be best to hold off until it comes out, just in case.

 

[kyoskue]

Hey, anybody hear about the update? Might be best to hold off until it comes out, just in case.

Already thought of that, but at least we'll have hard data written down to compare the before and after effects of updates, so carry on, I say.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

Already thought of that, but at least we'll have hard data written down to compare the before and after effects of updates, so carry on, I say.

You think there's chance for a DP dramatic change? Like different hitboxes, maybe a little bit faster or stronger, I'm not expecting a new moveset or something but a little more diversity could help isn't?

 

[LancerStaff]

You think there's chance for a DP dramatic change? Like different hitboxes, maybe a little bit faster or stronger, I'm not expecting a new moveset or something but a little more diversity could help isn't?

I'm thinking there won't be any changes besides maybe buffing his Ftilt myself.

 

[kyoskue]

You think there's chance for a DP dramatic change? Like different hitboxes, maybe a little bit faster or stronger, I'm not expecting a new moveset or something but a little more diversity could help isn't?

I highly doubt ANY characters receive anything this drastic; at least all at once, its probably just going to have a few very minor changes overall, I bet that 95% of the cast don't receive any changes at all with this update.
The only changes that I know for sure are getting rid of lagless Turnips and its ilk, and making Luma's respawn take another 5 seconds (13 instead of 8).

 

[SullyJay]

I like how Mario's are use for Measurements

Im not really expecting any buffs just nerfs.

 

[kyoskue]

I like how Mario's are use for Measurements

Im not really expecting any buffs just nerfs.

To be fair, I'd be more exact except that there's no real in-game measurement system.

That depends though.
If a move that was kind of an average attack before gets a big enough knockback nerf then it could potentially become a viable combo move.
Even a few relatively minor changes could really tweak a character's play style.

 

[Lavani]

To be fair, I'd be more exact except that there's no real in-game measurement system.

 

[kyoskue]

I could go through and alter my information (and I plan to), but how about accurately stating a vertical measurement?
It also seems potentially difficult to describe distance well if I have to refer to a specific stage's block structure as a measurement, at least the universe is relatively familiar with Mario himself. ;D

 

[Lavani]

I think the Pac-Dots in the background on Pac-Maze Ω would work best for that. There's a column on each side of the stage that goes all the way up to the ceiling that should work well for the purposes of measuring jump heights and whatnot.

For example, a full jump is 4 Pac-Dots:

 

[kyoskue]

I think the Pac-Dots in the background on Pac-Maze Ω would work best for that. There's a column on each side of the stage that goes all the way up to the ceiling that should work well for the purposes of measuring jump heights and whatnot.

For example, a full jump is 4 Pac-Dots:

Four Pac-dots... AND the bit of empty space below it.
Also, the distance would change depending on the camera's current perspective, so that's not perfect either.
My measurement IS a bit awkward, but at least its consistent.
I guess I could maybe convert the distance measurements into number of Pits, at least he's a constant while playing as him, so that might work out okay.

 

[Lavani]

Yeah, it isn't perfect as a measurement system, it's just the best available that comes to mind in terms of measurement by stage. If you want consistency I think character heights is the best we're going to get.

 

[kyoskue]

Yeah, it isn't perfect as a measurement system, it's just the best available that comes to mind in terms of measurement by stage. If you want consistency I think character heights is the best we're going to get.

As expected.
Nice try though, the images were a nice touch.