Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[MagiusNecros]

This is probably going to be old information but may as well blurb about it anyway.

2 things I've noticed is as we know is if a character runs off a ledge they can do an aerial attack, likewise if Mewtwo teleports as you do this you will get the extended glide version of his teleport which allows you to travel further then normal. Do this at the ledge towards the stage and you hover along the ground.

2nd thing is something I probably should have been doing as all characters are capable of doing this. When Mewtwo dashs and tries to stop he has to do that little turn around motion. You can prevent this by "running into shield" by pressing your shield button immediately after you let go of your dash/movement. This nullifies that turn around delay and puts up a shield immediately. Which I imagine is quite helpful.

 

[Sonicninja115]

This is probably going to be old information but may as well blurb about it anyway.

2 things I've noticed is as we know is if a character runs off a ledge they can do an aerial attack, likewise if Mewtwo teleports as you do this you will get the extended glide version of his teleport which allows you to travel further then normal. Do this at the ledge towards the stage and you hover along the ground.

2nd thing is something I probably should have been doing as all characters are capable of doing this. When Mewtwo dashs and tries to stop he has to do that little turn around motion. You can prevent this by "running into shield" by pressing your shield button immediately after you let go of your dash/movement. This nullifies that turn around delay and puts up a shield immediately. Which I imagine is quite helpful.

Could you clarify the first thought a bit more?

The second thought is a very good technique that isn't utilized as much as it should be. You also have one or two frames to input a special without the dashes endlag, for example, dash into a retreating teleport or LC. This is also used when pivoting as it has the same input frames.

Also, five pages hype! The OP is huge, I wonder how many people have actually read all of it...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Could you clarify the first thought a bit more?

The second thought is a very good technique that isn't utilized as much as it should be. You also have one or two frames to input a special without the dashes endlag, for example, dash into a retreating teleport or LC. This is also used when pivoting as it has the same input frames.

Also, five pages hype! The OP is huge, I wonder how many people have actually read all of it...

You know how Mewtwo kinda glides a little bit if you teleport left or right in the air? You can do the same thing on the ground if you dash and teleport as you run off the edge of a stage. Making you glide or slide farther along the ground.

 

[meleebrawler]

This is probably going to be old information but may as well blurb about it anyway.

2 things I've noticed is as we know is if a character runs off a ledge they can do an aerial attack, likewise if Mewtwo teleports as you do this you will get the extended glide version of his teleport which allows you to travel further then normal. Do this at the ledge towards the stage and you hover along the ground.

2nd thing is something I probably should have been doing as all characters are capable of doing this. When Mewtwo dashs and tries to stop he has to do that little turn around motion. You can prevent this by "running into shield" by pressing your shield button immediately after you let go of your dash/movement. This nullifies that turn around delay and puts up a shield immediately. Which I imagine is quite helpful.

Don't you still get shield drop lag if you don't block anything?

 

[Krysco]

So I recently rewatched My Smash Corner's Mewtwo combo video and there's something I'm curious about. He mentions that footstool to djc Disable is a combo albeit not on every character. He then mentions that it can lead into further combos or a kill but he doesn't mention if it can lead into another footstool djc Disable. Is such a thing possible? I know Disable has a sort of timer on it, like you can't wait for someone to get out of Disable and then immediately use it on them again, kinda like how grabs work. However, the footstool should knock them out of the Disable stun, right? I'd test it myself but I've gotta leave soon. If I don't get a reply by the time I come back then I'll test it myself just to be sure.

Here's the video I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diKq-5VgQa0

Also, earlier I mentioned being able to djc with item tosses. I'm gonna test later on to try and see what applications it has. Compared to jcit, they cover about the same distance but one is restricted to being used on the ground while the other is restricted to being in the air with a double jump. Djcit like other djc techniques can be used to get Mewtwo on a platform more quickly than jumping through it and either falling or fast falling, plus it sends out a hitbox. Different items will do different things and for now I'm focusing my attention on Diddy since his item can be easily spawned in Training and he's a high tier threat and therefore a more likely character for us to fight in tournaments. This is just a theory but I can imagine djcit Banana Peel > Disable > whatever you want could be a possible option whether Diddy is on a platform or not. I've also managed to hit Diddy with a djcit Banana while he's on a platform without ending up on the platform myself on Battlefield. I'm pretty sure this can combo into utilt or usmash or if the Banana knocks him off the platform, you could follow up with ftilt or weak Shadow Ball for a jab lock then Disable and then any punish you want.

If my cousin comes over this weekend, I'll see if he can help me test further combos since getting items like Sheik's Grenade and both Link bombs alone is difficult.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Don't you still get shield drop lag if you don't block anything?

Not quite sure. But I want to say that the lag takes up less frames then the little turnaround animation Mewtwo does. Might require testing. And not just on CPU opponents.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Not quite sure. But I want to say that the lag takes up less frames then the little turnaround animation Mewtwo does. Might require testing. And not just on CPU opponents.

CPU opponents should be fine, also, it should work in the training room.

After putting up shield and deciding to drop it, Mewtwo is locked into 18 frames of lag. If Mewtwo decides to use an OoS option, then he is only locked into 11 frames of lag.
If he is hit, then it is a different matter, and depends on what frame of shield Mewtwo got hit.

What more do you guys think I should add to the How To Play section? I am trying to turn this into a guide for ease of use and finding. It would be easiest for people to find this info in the guide section, and they might be more likely to read it there too.

 

[meleebrawler]

CPU opponents should be fine, also, it should work in the training room.

After putting up shield and deciding to drop it, Mewtwo is locked into 18 frames of lag. If Mewtwo decides to use an OoS option, then he is only locked into 11 frames of lag.
If he is hit, then it is a different matter, and depends on what frame of shield Mewtwo got hit.

What more do you guys think I should add to the How To Play section? I am trying to turn this into a guide for ease of use and finding. It would be easiest for people to find this info in the guide section, and they might be more likely to read it there too.

Saying Mewtwo takes just as much dedication as Sheik without the reward is a bit misleading. I mean, most of his longer combos can cause quite a bit more damage than hers. More that he doesn't have as much potential since he isn't as safe on average.

You should probably put close-quarter combat as a con for him too.

Also a bit misleading is calling him a floaty. His fall speed is average and fastfall is pretty good. It's his gravity that's low, which means Mewtwo "hangs" at the apex of an ascent longer than most before he starts to fall. His tumble animation and size are the bigger culprits for his susceptibility to juggles despite his light weight.

 

[Browny]

I'm just going to leave this here

https://youtu.be/lAbeAeE-XUU?t=195 (3:15)

Apply the exact same to Mewtwo and you'll win more often.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'm just going to leave this here

https://youtu.be/lAbeAeE-XUU?t=195 (3:15)

Apply the exact same to Mewtwo and you'll win more often.

Always charge a SB or SD?

 

[Metalex]

Always charge a Shadowball whenever it's safe to do it is or there's downtime is what i got from the video. Feels very obivious for me but it's important for sure! There's very few situations where having a uncharged shadowball is more important than having a charged anyway.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Always charge a SB or SD?

If it's charge Sb then yeah Common sense, if it's make Mewtwo SD then yeah I've won a few matches against a Mewtwo making the Mewtwo do just that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

If it's charge Sb then yeah Common sense, if it's make Mewtwo SD then yeah I've won a few matches against a Mewtwo making the Mewtwo do just that.

I just found it ironic that the advice and the SD happened at the same time.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Saying Mewtwo takes just as much dedication as Sheik without the reward is a bit misleading. I mean, most of his longer combos can cause quite a bit more damage than hers. More that he doesn't have as much potential since he isn't as safe on average.

You should probably put close-quarter combat as a con for him too.

Also a bit misleading is calling him a floaty. His fall speed is average and fastfall is pretty good. It's his gravity that's low, which means Mewtwo "hangs" at the apex of an ascent longer than most before he starts to fall. His tumble animation and size are the bigger culprits for his susceptibility to juggles despite his light weight.

Mewtwo his a low reward character. Because of his hitboxes you may not even get the right combo strings. He takes a lot of work and at the end of the day it's not worth it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo his a low reward character. Because of his hitboxes you may not even get the right combo strings. He takes a lot of work and at the end of the day it's not worth it.

I changed the wording so it makes more sense.

 

[elitegrovyle]

how do I properly execute sh ff nair and what would the uses from it be?

I remember reading somewhere that there is a grab follow up but I can never seem to do it
(I'm not sure if this should go here or in a separate thread)

 

[Sonicninja115]

how do I properly execute sh ff nair and what would the uses from it be?

I remember reading somewhere that there is a grab follow up but I can never seem to do it
(I'm not sure if this should go here or in a separate thread)

I believe I have a section on Nair KB in the advanced techniques. It doesn't combo into grab, but jab-grab might work. It can true into jab, Dtilt and Utilt. All of those options have follow ups. You can use Nair out of Dtilt if that is easier, and a falling Nair is easiest to true if you learn the timing.

 

[elitegrovyle]

ok thanks sonicninja it is greatly appreciated and I will check out that section soon

 

[---]

Working 3rd Shifts have been taking a toll on my time for Smash, but I'm going to try head out to some locals over the next few months such as one I'm going to tomorrow.

What more do you guys think I should add to the How To Play section? I am trying to turn this into a guide for ease of use and finding. It would be easiest for people to find this info in the guide section, and they might be more likely to read it there too.

First things first, I'd start up a new thread strictly for the guide (not that this one has to be locked). Rather than having a single post for all the info, make a couple double posts in the new one so you don't run into space issues/make everything look cramped. Would limit spoilers, the less clicking people have to the better IMO.

Personally I'd use font colors to highlight things you want to call attention to such as dos/don'ts, special properties, specific opponents/stages, follow up attacks.

Probably don't have to list all the match up threads either since I'm locking them two weeks after making them/I have them listed in the main thread. lol

 

[Sonicninja115]

Working 3rd Shifts have been taking a toll on my time for Smash, but I'm going to try head out to some locals over the next few months such as one I'm going to tomorrow.



First things first, I'd start up a new thread strictly for the guide (not that this one has to be locked). Rather than having a single post for all the info, make a couple double posts in the new one so you don't run into space issues/make everything look cramped. Would limit spoilers, the less clicking people have to the better IMO.

Personally I'd use font colors to highlight things you want to call attention to such as dos/don'ts, special properties, specific opponents/stages, follow up attacks.

Probably don't have to list all the match up threads either since I'm locking them two weeks after making them/I have them listed in the main thread. lol

What should I do with this thread? Should I keep the stuff I'm the OP here? Or should I move it all to a new thread and post topics and smaller things like the AT's, moveset, and other things in this thread?

Basically, should I work on the full version in a different thread, and keep moveset, AT's and more Metagame pertinent info here?

 

[---]

I'd move the entire OP of this thread to a new thread with double posts to space things out for the guide and just continue discussion as normal.

Have one post for the standard moveset, one for specials (because customs?), one for pros/cons/general summary, one for key ATs and bread/butter combos, one for links to other important threads, etc.

Ex. http://smashboards.com/threads/super-fighting-robot-mega-man-base-moveset-guide-directory.368806/

Alternatively you can create a guide in the Guide section of SWF. It just depends on how much you want to take upon yourself and what you're looking to get out of such a project.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'd move the entire OP of this thread to a new thread with double posts to space things out for the guide and just continue discussion as normal.

Have one post for the standard moveset, one for specials (because customs?), one for pros/cons/general summary, one for key ATs and bread/butter combos, one for links to other important threads, etc.

Ex. http://smashboards.com/threads/super-fighting-robot-mega-man-base-moveset-guide-directory.368806/

Alternatively you can create a guide in the Guide section of SWF. It just depends on how much you want to take upon yourself and what you're looking to get out of such a project.

That makes sense. I will definetly do that, but I might make some inconsequential tweaks.

By SWF do you mean Smash World Forums? I thought that was just Smashboards...

Anyways, with the new thread, I can do a community/approved Mewtwo guide, after it is finished, I will probably post it in the Guide section.

In the future, my plans for this thread are...

Write out all the AT's in far more detail

Add a combo explanation section. (We already have a combo compendium, so I would probably just cover the basics of his combos, how to do them, and what they are. So say which moves combo, tell what moves they combo into, and then explain how to do it and set it up)

I have a pro, con summary, but I will most likely expand on it and go into more detail. There are some smaller issues that I might add. I will probably list them in order of importance.

Does everything sound good?

Also, why are multiple posts important, what do they change? I've seen other guides do it and I am just curious.

 

[---]

That makes sense. I will definetly do that, but I might make some inconsequential tweaks.

By SWF do you mean Smash World Forums? I thought that was just Smashboards...

Anyways, with the new thread, I can do a community/approved Mewtwo guide, after it is finished, I will probably post it in the Guide section.

In the future, my plans for this thread are...

Write out all the AT's in far more detail

Add a combo explanation section. (We already have a combo compendium, so I would probably just cover the basics of his combos, how to do them, and what they are. So say which moves combo, tell what moves they combo into, and then explain how to do it and set it up)

I have a pro, con summary, but I will most likely expand on it and go into more detail. There are some smaller issues that I might add. I will probably list them in order of importance.

Does everything sound good?

Also, why are multiple posts important, what do they change? I've seen other guides do it and I am just curious.

We can comment and add suggestions as we go along, but sounds good so far. Just remember to credit people when needed.

SWF = Smash World Forums = Smashboards it's all the same thing. lol

Double posts are just an easy way for multi-tiered posts to look more professional, organized, less clicking, and so you can technically link a specific part of the guide to someone. Pretty sure there's also a character limit so you want to avoid hitting that as well.

If you want pictures (as nothing but text boxes is boring and hard to read) feel free to steal them from the old moveset project. If you're going to create your own I'd recommend the 3DS version so you don't have to resize everything.

 

[Sonicninja115]

We can comment and add suggestions as we go along, but sounds good so far. Just remember to credit people when needed.

SWF = Smash World Forums = Smashboards it's all the same thing. lol

Double posts are just an easy way for multi-tiered posts to look more professional, organized, less clicking, and so you can technically link a specific part of the guide to someone. Pretty sure there's also a character limit so you want to avoid hitting that as well.

If you want pictures (as nothing but text boxes is boring and hard to read) feel free to steal them from the old moveset project. If you're going to create your own I'd recommend the 3DS version so you don't have to resize everything.

Awesome, I am going to start on that today.

The reason I am making it a community guide is so I can easily give credit where deserved. There are so many people posting right now that it would be annoying to go through it all. I will definitely have a spoiler listing all the contributors at the bottom.



Edit: This thread is still going, I just moved the guide portion to another thread. So keep on discussing and labbing!

Also, if you have any metagame related questions, fell free to ask!

Edit: I looked into crouch canceling in SSB4 and found out that it makes Mewtwo die about 9% later. You may be asking, "only 9 percent? That's not that good..." But it is good because Mewtwo needs all the help he can get. Plus, 9% is pretty good.

 

[Metalex]

Alright i don't know if these are known already but just in case they aren't im gonna drop some stuff i've discovered that i haven't seen anyone else doing/mentioning (With accompanying short videos )

* Nair Platform Slide lock: When the opponent is above you on a platform you can use the initial hits of a shorthopped Nair to make the opponent slide off the platform and go into the locked fall animation (when a opponent slides off a platform by certain attacks they will not be able to do anything before they land and can not tech, similiar to a footstool). After this you can follow up with a Shadowball lock, or simply a KO move, and this works at all percents and characters.

Short clip:

* Extended Confusion Double jump: If you do a aerial confusion, and then do a second aerial confusion before the peak of your double jump with the correct timing, you will fly much higher than you would otherwise. This effect can also be seen slightly if you do a Shadowball almost at the peak of your double jump.

Short Clip:

* Instant Shadowball Cancel: In the air, start charging your shadowball and at the same time start holding shield which will cause you to shield at the first possible frame when you land. But when you land, immediately do a jump. If done correctly the shield animation won't even come out and it looks like Mewtwo stops charging instantly. I find it pretty useful to have in my movement since you can combine it with B reversals, DJC and you can do any OoS option out of it.

Short Clip:

* Shadowball Walljump A B-reversed Shadowball can be used after a walljump to land directly on the ledge. Not really sure how practically usefull it is, but it could useful when recovering especially if you have a almost fully charged Shadowball.

Gif: http://gfycat.com/FlawedFlusteredKatydid

 

[PEACE7]

Good stuff Metalex! I like that nair platform lock cancel it looks wicked fancy.

The extended confusion double jump thing i known about for quite a bit!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Alright i don't know if these are known already but just in case they aren't im gonna drop some stuff i've discovered that i haven't seen anyone else doing/mentioning (With accompanying short videos )

* Nair Platform Slide lock: When the opponent is above you on a platform you can use the initial hits of a shorthopped Nair to make the opponent slide off the platform and go into the locked fall animation (when a opponent slides off a platform by certain attacks they will not be able to do anything before they land and not tech, similiar to a footstool). After this you can follow up with a Shadowball lock, or simply a KO move, and this works at all percents and characters.

Examples:

* Extended Confusion Double jump: If you do a aerial confusion, and then do a second aerial confusion before the peak of your double jump with the correct timing, you will fly much higher than you would otherwise. This effect can also be seen slightly if you do a Shadowball almost at the peak of your double jump.

Short Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CbEwrD4loo

* Instant Shadowball Cancel: In the air, start charging your shadowball and at the same time start holding shield which will cause you to shield at the first possible frame when you land. But when you land, immediately do a jump. If done correctly the shield animation won't even come out and it looks like Mewtwo stops charging instantly. I find it pretty useful to have in my movement since you can combine it with B reversals, DJC and you can do any OoS option out of it.

Short Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKBp3_Tnm6o

* Shadowball Walljump A B-reversed Shadowball can be used after a walljump to land directly on the ledge. Not really sure how practically usefull it is, but it could useful when recovering especially if you have a almost fully charged Shadowball.

Gif: http://gfycat.com/FlawedFlusteredKatydid

Awesome! These are all great! What about SB wall jump as a stylish edge guard? I think that would be the coolest thing ever, make a video showing that guard and I will definetly put it in the OP as an ultimat style move.

I like the thinking behind the Nair jab lock setup.

I didn't know that Mewtwo had some of the same qualities as Luigi, I will definetly look into that and make a little chart showing jump height.

The cancel thing was somewhat known, but not investigated. Thanks for looking into it! Zan posted a video showing how it can be used to get through platforms, but this is a completely different use. It looks like a great movement option and spacing mix-up. I am going to incorporate this into my gameplay ASAP.

Also, I have a little thing of my own. It seems that if you Nair through a platform and fall on a opponent then they will always land in front of you. I am looking into situations to see if anything breaks it.

Edit: I completely missed the vids... I will update the OP and guide tomorrow!

IS it okay for me to use the vids Metalex ?

 

[Metalex]

Sonicninja115 That's nice to hear!

I really like the Nair lock setup since it's basically guranteed as soon as you catch your opponent above you with the Nair, and have gotten alot of easy KO's with this recently. That thing you came up with about the opponent landing in front of you sounds very interesting though, gotta try it out!

And yeah, i saw Zan's thread about the Shadowball buffer shield drop through platforms just now and didn't know about that one! This technique i showed is a bit different in application like you said, and i have found many ways to mix up my movement with it.

The videos were mostly meant to be short showcases that i was going to delete after a while since im a about to make better videos, but i'll keep them anyway so you can use them if you want to =)

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sonicninja115 That's nice to hear!

I really like the Nair lock setup since it's basically guranteed as soon as you catch your opponent above you with the Nair, and have gotten alot of easy KO's with this recently. That thing you came up with about the opponent landing in front of you sounds very interesting though, gotta try it out!

And yeah, i saw Zan's thread about the Shadowball buffer shield drop through platforms just now and didn't know about that one! This technique i showed is a bit different in application like you said, and i have found many ways to mix up my movement with it.

The videos were mostly meant to be short showcases that i was going to delete after a while since im a about to make better videos, but i'll keep them anyway so you can use them if you want to =)

If your going to make better videos then I will wait for those! Thanks!

Edit: I looked at the Gif and saw what you meant. I thought you were talking about FC SB. This, however, is a lot better. There are many uses for this and it is a good way to bypass the ledge without the lag that confusion has!

 

[Metalex]

Sonicninja115 On a second thought it looks like i won't be able to do the new videos for quite a while and they are okay for the meantime, so go ahead and use em anyway

Tested the thing you mentioned about the opponent always landing in front of Mewtwo on platforms but haven't been able to replicate it, are you sure about it? Would have been interesting to see.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sonicninja115 On a second thought it looks like i won't be able to do the new videos for quite a while and they are okay for the meantime, so go ahead and use em anyway

Tested the thing you mentioned about the opponent always landing in front of Mewtwo on platforms but haven't been able to replicate it, are you sure about it? Would have been interesting to see.

It might have been my timing. I spent a lot of time learning the timing.

 

[meleebrawler]

So apparently Mewtwo can do this thing called an "instant ledge getup", along with others.

This could be useful, given how our other ledge options tend to be mediocre.

 

[Sonicninja115]

.......Smash 4 has no hard tech.... Take that Melee!

... TO THE LAB!

 

[FooltheFlames]

So apparently Mewtwo can do this thing called an "instant ledge getup", along with others.

This could be useful, given how our other ledge options tend to be mediocre.

Awww... I wanted to be the first to post this here... :/ oh well~
lagless ledge get up to back throw anyone? ;3

 

[Sonicninja115]

Has anyone been able to get this down yet?

I am still struggling to get this tech down, does anyone have any tips? I can get the tech on Lylat, but no where else. I think I might be too slow in the forward flick. I got PP mostly down, so I have no doubt that I can do this.

 

[meleebrawler]

Has anyone been able to get this down yet?

I am still struggling to get this tech down, does anyone have any tips? I can get the tech on Lylat, but no where else. I think I might be too slow in the forward flick. I got PP mostly down, so I have no doubt that I can do this.

I haven't tried it yet but I suspect Mewtwo may require different timing due to his slower double jump.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I haven't tried it yet but I suspect Mewtwo may require different timing due to his slower double jump.

It's easiest with Lucina, but I have been able to do it with them both on Lylat. Lab all the Tech!

Edit: is this better then teching? Imaging using this In to FF Nair.

How good is Nair for anti Ledge grab? Could it be used to keep them from grabbing the ledge and possibly stage spiking them? And is it the best option? Or does Bair beat it.

Edit: Always Fair with Mewtwo I guess,

 

[FooltheFlames]

Has anyone been able to get this down yet?

I am still struggling to get this tech down, does anyone have any tips? I can get the tech on Lylat, but no where else. I think I might be too slow in the forward flick. I got PP mostly down, so I have no doubt that I can do this.

I got it for the most part, on Lylat at least.
I've been able to do this with several characters, but not very consistently.
The trick is you have to input the movements for floaty characters like Mewtwo and Puff just a tad bit slower than with someone like Greninja. (at least thats what it feels like right now)
It's very hard cuz it's not something you need to do on reflex like with L-canceling back in Melee; it's a very precise timing that varies with each character, it must be!

 

[Sonicninja115]

I got it for the most part, on Lylat at least.
I've been able to do this with several characters, but not very consistently.
The trick is you have to input the movements for floaty characters like Mewtwo and Puff just a tad bit slower than with someone like Greninja. (at least thats what it feels like right now)
It's very hard cuz it's not something you need to do on reflex like with L-canceling back in Melee; it's a very precise timing that varies with each character, it must be!

It's weird, I am able to PP, but I cannot get this tech on any stage besides Lylat. I am varying the speed, going from as fast as possible (Dash Dance Speed) To rather slow (Failed PP) but it is never working...

 

[FooltheFlames]

It's weird, I am able to PP, but I cannot get this tech on any stage besides Lylat. I am varying the speed, going from as fast as possible (Dash Dance Speed) To rather slow (Failed PP) but it is never working...

It's the same here, It has to be some kind of very precise input at certain frames (like the Samus super wave dash in Melee) for each character. AND those inputs must vary greatly for each depending on the stage- it's prolly that Lylat has the largest frame windows for this tech and that's why we can do it there???