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Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

Krysco

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I just got home so I'll test it again in a moment and if I can get it to work, I'll see about recording it. I'll try both the stop motion method and the method sonicninja suggested. One issue I noticed I was having when testing the other night is that I have no idea when Diddy can first act after dtilt. I was doing the dtilt, pausing to focus on di'ing Mewtwo up and away and then resuming time and kept having to mash the control stick for Diddy since if I try it too early, he doesn't dash at all. I also don't know the specific range of the dtilt to usmash combo, like if Diddy can do the usmash right after his inital dash or if he needs to run a tiny bit more for it to be a true combo. The pains of not using a character~
 

Browny

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Yeah thats certainly the trick to act out of dtilt but I'm finding at least 2-3 frames of being able to escape it at 1/4 speed. Assuming that a diddy player is going to be frame perfect with the dtilt still at best gives Mewtwo a chance to escape. I really don't think im more than 3 frames off here.

If a diddy player is not frame perfect, you should be able to jump out of it every time from mid-long range.
 
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Krysco

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Yeah, I'm trying both methods suggested, the 105% 1/4 hold L method and the 120% 1x speed method and I can't get it to work. With the 120% method, I can't even get it to register as a true combo so it's probably my timing being off with Diddy. The sooner Diddy lands the usmash, the higher Mewtwo will be making the upwards di more likely to get him out of the final hit.

Dah well, best I can do is either try it online with someone who actually knows the timing, try it with my cousin in person when he next comes over or if someone else can get it to work in an actual match, they could save a replay but then there's an upload feature tied to that anyways so it wouldn't even need to be sent to me.

I might keep trying to get this to work but the fact that I haven't gotten Mewtwo out once through my numerous tries is getting discouraging. Probably gonna take a break for now and I'll try again tomorrow. Got other stuff I wanna lab to with Roy, Robin and Cloud so I can just add this to the list~
 

Browny

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In a few days I'll be able to tape it again, so wait until then you can see if I'm doing it right or point out what I'm doing wrong.
 

Browny

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN0FmlIDQxE

Its pretty simple. After diddys dtilt connects, he has somewhere around 30 frames to follow up, this includes the hitlag he suffers. When hit at mid range or more, Mewtwo DI's hard up and away at KO %'s, the dtilt sends him far enough to the point that diddy can not do a normal dash-usmash to make it combo, he has to enter a run and hold it for a few frames to cover the distance. The fact that you can airdodge or jump out shows at least a few frames that his upsmash is coming out possibly 1 frame before you can act, and it takes 4 to come out.

If diddy jump-cancels the usmash, he will get an extra boost but it isnt enough I think. I can't exactly test that by myself, I am fairly confident that him sliding wont help because as you can see, jumping out of it means that you have a few frames to work with and a jcusmash does not give frame advantage. Since diddy has to enter a run and not an instant dash-usmash, it doesn't make a difference on his end as the slide he gains by it would only make the second and third hit clip you but by then you are long gone.

I realise I was saying that you can fall out of the 2nd-3rd hits, that was wrong. I meant the first hit. In practice I have managed to get clipped by the first one, then fall out but most often it is this complete escape. Unless of course it was close range.

If I'm right, I want to tell Abadango this for his upcoming 2GGT saga.
 
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Sonicninja115

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN0FmlIDQxE

Its pretty simple. After diddys dtilt connects, he has somewhere around 30 frames to follow up, this includes the hitlag he suffers. When hit at mid range or more, Mewtwo DI's hard up and away at KO %'s, the dtilt sends him far enough to the point that diddy can not do a normal dash-usmash to make it combo, he has to enter a run and hold it for a few frames to cover the distance. The fact that you can airdodge or jump out shows at least a few frames that his upsmash is coming out possibly 1 frame before you can act, and it takes 4 to come out.

If diddy jump-cancels the usmash, he will get an extra boost but it isnt enough I think. I can't exactly test that by myself, I am fairly confident that him sliding wont help because as you can see, jumping out of it means that you have a few frames to work with and a jcusmash does not give frame advantage. Since diddy has to enter a run and not an instant dash-usmash, it doesn't make a difference on his end as the slide he gains by it would only make the second and third hit clip you but by then you are long gone.

I realise I was saying that you can fall out of the 2nd-3rd hits, that was wrong. I meant the first hit. In practice I have managed to get clipped by the first one, then fall out but most often it is this complete escape. Unless of course it was close range.

If I'm right, I want to tell Abadango this for his upcoming 2GGT saga.
I can test with JC. My style allows that to happen thankfully. Anyways, I think I messed up in my testing the other day, and I can't today.

Looking at it, a Tip and center Dtilt could allow M2 to fall out. It works on even the base hit sometimes, but Diddy can JC that one. Seal of approval, as much as it's worth. Also, you are making sure to run at the first possible frame right? I have a lot of difficulty with that when I use that method for my testing.
 

Browny

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Yes I am sure.

In my clips when I tested diddys hitlag, it takes ~0.74 seconds (so roughly 11 frames) after mewtwo is launched, to bring up shield. In the clips where I ran after the dtilt, the run was initiated ~0.75 seconds after.

I am within a 1 frame window here, and there is more than 1 frame to escape.
 

Sonicninja115

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Hey Browny Browny Would you mind if I made a video on this? I would credit you for the discovery of course, a note at the beginning of the video.
 

Browny

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Sure thats fine,

It's not a discovery though (I went into detail in this on reddit) its just that so often I saw people falling out of diddys dtilt-usmash and players and commentators alike being so shocked at how it happened even though its always been possible. I've seen M2K do it multiple times as cloud, with Mewtwo its much easier.

It's more of a tech that players haven't bothered to learn because they aren't aware of how useful it is.
 

Megamang

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Hey Browny Browny Would you mind if I made a video on this? I would credit you for the discovery of course, a note at the beginning of the video.
Im quite interested in... not dying to diddy.

Whats your youtube channel?

Also, everyone else. I noticed Larry Lurr gets out of usmash tons, so this is already being utilized. I assumed it was foxs attributes helping, but.maybe larry is just up to date.
 
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Sonicninja115

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Im quite interested in... not dying to diddy.

Whats your youtube channel?

Also, everyone else. I noticed Larry Lurr gets out of usmash tons, so this is already being utilized. I assumed it was foxs attributes helping, but.maybe larry is just up to date.
I would suggest reading the above posts as the video is just proof, no explanations or anything.
 

Megamang

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I saw that, and it is something. But are we sure the diddy's execution was frame tight? I mean, either way ill try the escape since id like to get out as often as possiblr, but its good to know, ya know?

Plus I'm always looking for more smash 4 youtube content :D
 

Sonicninja115

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I saw that, and it is something. But are we sure the diddy's execution was frame tight? I mean, either way ill try the escape since id like to get out as often as possiblr, but its good to know, ya know?

Plus I'm always looking for more smash 4 youtube content :D
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVbFI-BwsUOvLvd_gQ3GY_A

I have to do some testing of my own to completely validate everything, but I am pretty certain it works to some extent. At the very least you can mix-up DI in and Away as they both require different dash lengths.
 

Browny

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I saw that, and it is something. But are we sure the diddy's execution was frame tight? I mean, either way ill try the escape since id like to get out as often as possiblr, but its good to know, ya know?

Plus I'm always looking for more smash 4 youtube content :D
I am fairly confident that I acted within at worst, 2 frames of what is a frame-perfect execution.

Given that I was able to jump away, which has more than 2 frames, this means that you have at least 2 frames to dodge it. The diddy, even if frame perfect, doesn't seem to be able to combo dtilt-usmash from those ranges.
 

Browny

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New topic

upload_2016-9-27_15-36-42.png


This is a poor attitude and should be adopted by no one.

If people are having trouble landing because of clouds uair... heres a trick... dont land above cloud. Mewtwo is WAY more mobile in the air than cloud and has a pretty cool move that lets him land anywhere he wants and the worst he is going to take is a dash attack or blade beam, which is much better than endless uairs!

Watch top level mewtwo players, they simply DONT land on top of characters like this. People keep dying to marios by landing on top of them, watch abadango. he can go an entire set without ever landing on a marios head.
 

meleebrawler

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New topic

View attachment 118251

This is a poor attitude and should be adopted by no one.

If people are having trouble landing because of clouds uair... heres a trick... dont land above cloud. Mewtwo is WAY more mobile in the air than cloud and has a pretty cool move that lets him land anywhere he wants and the worst he is going to take is a dash attack or blade beam, which is much better than endless uairs!

Watch top level mewtwo players, they simply DONT land on top of characters like this. People keep dying to marios by landing on top of them, watch abadango. he can go an entire set without ever landing on a marios head.
How To Identify Nairtwos At A Glance.
 

Deathorse

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View attachment 118251

This is a poor attitude and should be adopted by no one.

If people are having trouble landing because of clouds uair... heres a trick... dont land above cloud. Mewtwo is WAY more mobile in the air than cloud and has a pretty cool move that lets him land anywhere he wants and the worst he is going to take is a dash attack or blade beam, which is much better than endless uairs!

Watch top level mewtwo players, they simply DONT land on top of characters like this. People keep dying to marios by landing on top of them, watch abadango. he can go an entire set without ever landing on a marios head.
Alright buddy, since you seem to assume so many things with my one sentence I made on a 140 letters caps, let me explain.

I will agree with you that Mewtwo has superior air mobility over Cloud. However, "using his move that makes him land anywhere" and taking a dash attack to the face won't make the situation better. Mewtwo against Cloud should be played very safely, but once mewtwo's in the air there's nothing safe he can do. You don't seem to have much experience in the matchup and assumed things way too quickly. Let's say you do manage to teleport on the ground without getting hit, if you try the same thing again any good player will catch on to it and you'll just get punished even more.

With that said, good evening.
 

Megamang

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Well, in a bracket set you should always have a platform if you really hate landing v cloud. Personally i prefer to ban SV cause limit camping and the small sides are BS there. Anyways, if youre decent with teleport cancels you always have options.

That said, limit cloud is faster in the air iirc.

We juggle him too, just hit from the sides and not directly from below.
 

Browny

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Alright buddy, since you seem to assume so many things with my one sentence I made on a 140 letters caps, let me explain.

I will agree with you that Mewtwo has superior air mobility over Cloud. However, "using his move that makes him land anywhere" and taking a dash attack to the face won't make the situation better. Mewtwo against Cloud should be played very safely, but once mewtwo's in the air there's nothing safe he can do. You don't seem to have much experience in the matchup and assumed things way too quickly. Let's say you do manage to teleport on the ground without getting hit, if you try the same thing again any good player will catch on to it and you'll just get punished even more.

With that said, good evening.
There is no excuse for taking clouds uairs, literally none. Challenge it and you lose. airdodge and you lose. Once you lose, you are in the air above him and are going to lose again.

Your mindset should not be 'I cant land against cloud' because not many characters can and that doesnt propose a solution its just lamenting the fact that you dont have corrins dair or something. You need to look at what you CAN do to land AROUND cloud. What can mewtwo do? b-reverse a shadowball, confusion, teleport, or go to the edge. You have 4 viable mixups to dodge his uair on a character that is much faster in the air.

Smash is a numbers game, everything is risk vs reward and Mewtwo has 4 options to avoid clouds uair juggles which I think is the most that any character has in this entire game. They may not be the best (like diddys mixups with sideb/b-reverse banana) but he has the most. Everyone wants the easy go-to option to solve their problems but when a character has a multitude of mixups to chose from they dont want to because its easier to press one button than to change things up. See; all the bandwagon sheik mains who failed hopelessly after dthrow-uair no longer worked while the mixup kings void and mr.r continue to see bigger success.

You have a problem with a matchup. There exists a solution. Take it or dont, but dont go telling other mewtwo players its hopeless while you spend no time working with the options mewtwo has to avoid it.
 
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