Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[ILOVESMASH]

Just posting my idea of a match-up spread

I have experience vs like, 1/3 of the characters here offline with people who main them, most are online. Those that I don't play I base my rating on what I have seen when watching tournaments.

I believe that Mewtwo is not the sort of character who has strong match-ups either way, like most characters in this game. Those characters he can style on easily and also end his stock pretty quickly and those who cal wall him out, struggle to get past his walls when he is in the lead. As such, I only rate characters as even, advantage or disadvantage. Characters in even may very well have an advantage (either way) but it is not significant enough to the point that I feel like a 2/3 set win is anywhere near as likely.

Match-up spreads should really only focus on a 2/3 or 3/5 set scenario since plenty of characters can get wins with random lucky reads or gimps but pulling them off in 2/3 matches is too unreliable.

Advantage:
Even:
Disadvantage:

Any reason Yoshi is listed as a disadvantageous MU for Mewtwo? I feel Mewtwo's more threatening combo, long range, and edge guarding enable him to do rather decently in the MU.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Can you explain some of these?

Why does he lose to Mario (agree) but win against Dr. Mario (not sure)? Is the recovery/mobility that significant versus the power?

He doesn't beat Doc. That answer was just guessing for the most part. Though he doesn't lose to either Mario or Doc 70:30 (lol). I think Mario beats him slightly (people overrate Mario's effectiveness in general), and Doc goes even, even after the buffs.

Well to start with there is a very significant difference in kill power between their upsmashes due to the strange angle of Dr Marios, doc has his trump card with dthrow-fair that requires him to land a grab at that narrow % range... Mewtwo isnt the sort of character who gets grabbed easily by someone with slow ground speed and low grab range.

I feel that Mewtwo should live significantly longer vs Dr Mario on average and also escape docs combos easier while trashing his recovery. I know dr marios recovery goes a lot further than people give it credit for, but his downb is like a 60 frame move that doesnt protect him from shadowball or dair, you should be able to punish it.

In a 2/3 set scenario, I would expect a Mewtwo to land a number of gimps offstage and just play excessively obnoxiously vs Doc, camp him to hell and never let him get in your range.

Jab 1 -> Up-B or Jab 1,2 -> Up-B are effective on him. D-Throw Fair is not something I'd attempt on Mewtwo because it's harder to connect on him, and it works in a narrow range.

You cannot always challenge his Down-B on the way back and a good Doc player will save his Down-B and double jump. Edge guarding could go either way for these two, with Mewtwo Nair gimps and Doc's Down-B. Mewtwo isn't somehow going to live longer than Doc.

Mewtwo has to kill by landing a throw, sniping with a Shadowball, gimping or punishing hard. One of those is a long range kill that can be landed if the Doc commits hard. The others require you to get close enough, in a range for Doc to hit you. You have to go in at some point, and if you screw up, you will get punished hard by Up-Smash, Bair, or Up-B.

You cannot play lame all the time. Doc has a reflector and can also opt to PS projectiles. Same can be said for Mewtwo vs Doc's pills.

Doc has a harder time dealing with defensive walls (e.g. Rosalina and Luma, Marth/Lucina, etc.) because he doesn't have the range to counter the strategy. Mewtwo doesn't win here because his ranged attacks don't protect him as well.

 

[Browny]

You cannot play lame all the time.

Oh but I can, I make every second person I play on FG ragequit by playing an extremely defensive, walling out game with dtilt, jab, confusion and teleporting away.

Mewtwo doesnt like characters than can break through his defense, thats why he cant handle rushdown characters because his defense is super strong but once your through it, hes susceptible to combos and losing a stock early.

Dr Mario is not one of the characters.

Look at this sort of playstyle
http://www.twitch.tv/bros_calamity/v/30782547?t=01h59m00s

That is how mewtwo needs to play the matchup. Refuse to do anything unsafe and abuse the fact that many characters can not get through that. If done correctly, Dr Mario is going to have an extremely hard time getting through that. Mario doesnt have it as bad as doc here since he is faster and at least he has fludd to give him some space.

I can see doc being a great counter-punch sort of character vs people without projectiles and low range where he can just trade with them and win and abuse his upb, but Mewtwo isnt that.

I believe that if Doc went even with mewtwo, despite the fact that mewtwo hopelessly outranges, outspeeds and outcamps doc, then every other character in the game would slaughter mewtwo for free since they dont have those matchup weaknesses like doc does while possessing just as good kill power outside of fair. Someone like Ganondorf can beat Mewtwo thanks to his dtilt alone, that one move can counter mewtwos ground spacing. If Doc had one move like that to counter mewtwos dtilt, id say it was even. Thats why I didn't put him as even since there is no way that Mewtwo could be at an advantage vs anyone, if he is at a disadvantage to a character that has no reliable way to get through mewtwos defense.

You don't have to agree with me at all, but I'm not easily going to be convinced otherwise. The theory just does not add up.

ILOVESMASH

Yoshis fair and eggs are extremely difficult to get through and Yoshi can just trade with you and win, he is pretty much the only character who can effectively chase mewtwo in the air and frame traps him with multiple kill moves. Yoshi is capable of getting early kills and Mewtwo just can not easily land a kill move on a Yoshi that is extremely mobile.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Oh but I can, I make every second person I play on FG ragequit by playing an extremely defensive, walling out game with dtilt, jab, confusion and teleporting away.

Mewtwo doesnt like characters than can break through his defense, thats why he cant handle rushdown characters because his defense is super strong but once your through it, hes susceptible to combos and losing a stock early.

Dr Mario is not one of the characters.

Look at this sort of playstyle
http://www.twitch.tv/bros_calamity/v/30782547?t=01h59m00s

That is how mewtwo needs to play the matchup. Refuse to do anything unsafe and abuse the fact that many characters can not get through that. If done correctly, Dr Mario is going to have an extremely hard time getting through that. Mario doesnt have it as bad as doc here since he is faster and at least he has fludd to give him some space.

I can see doc being a great counter-punch sort of character vs people without projectiles and low range where he can just trade with them and win and abuse his upb, but Mewtwo isnt that.

I believe that if Doc went even with mewtwo, despite the fact that mewtwo hopelessly outranges, outspeeds and outcamps doc, then every other character in the game would slaughter mewtwo for free since they dont have those matchup weaknesses like doc does while possessing just as good kill power outside of fair. Someone like Ganondorf can beat Mewtwo thanks to his dtilt alone, that one move can counter mewtwos ground spacing. If Doc had one move like that to counter mewtwos dtilt, id say it was even. Thats why I didn't put him as even since there is no way that Mewtwo could be at an advantage vs anyone, if he is at a disadvantage to a character that has no reliable way to get through mewtwos defense.

You don't have to agree with me at all, but I'm not easily going to be convinced otherwise. The theory just does not add up.

1. Good for you, but we're not talking about For Glory.

2. Mewtwo's defense is not super strong. It's just better than his offense. Rosalina's defense is strong because of Luma and because of Rosalina's range on her moves (tilts, nair, etc.). Mega Man's defense is strong because of his ability to throw out multiple projectiles quickly that cover various areas around him. Mewtwo's is ok but it's not strong because everything he doesn't deny area control as effectively.

3. I understand the playstyle that you're supposed to implement but linking me to a match against Luigi and Falcon (a good Luigi, but still not relevant) doesn't prove a point nor does it show what to do against Doc. If you just assume that Doc has the same problems as Luigi then I don't know what to say really. Doc has a low shorthop so it's going to be harder for Mewtwo to fend him off when he gets in or to punish him by grabbing. Doc doesn't have traction issues like Luigi does so he can punish you harder. Doc doesn't have bottom 3 airspeed and is not floaty so he cannot be juggled as easily. Having Tornado to blitz through moves and mix up his landing is a huge boon. Luigi cannot do this as well with his Cyclone. Based off of the video you linked and the points above, I'd say Luigi has a harder time than Doc does against Mewtwo. Pretty strange that you have Luigi as an even matchup but Doc as an advantageous one.

Mario has an easier time because he can catch up to Mewtwo and combo him, but as far as KO potential is concerned, his punishes are not nearly as rewarding (this character cannot kill without Up-Smash or rage) and he cannot edgeguard as effectively (Mewtwo has an advantage here). Mario has no reason to use FLUDD against Mewtwo, unless he's in the lead or if the Mewtwo player tries to recover and fails miserably. Even then, FLUDD is not a move that should be used in neutral because it doesn't do anything useful. Fireball is more useful here.

I could also say in a best of 3 setting, Mewtwo loses to Doc because of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpQ3PC4uU6A - And Kudemo is, in my opinion, a pretty good Doc. But I don't think either of them were that familiar with their character's options. Zudenka is more familiar with Yoshi vs Doc because they play that matchup frequently.

4. It's funny that you think Doc is great against characters without projectiles and just wins trades.

5. You keep saying this without saying why. Mewtwo's d tilt is not the answer to everything and Mewtwo does not hopelessly outspace Doc otherwise. Doc's down tilt has pretty decent range, and comes out 1 frame faster. Bair comes out at the same speed as Mewtwo's D-tilt, does more damage and hits characters whether they're ground or not more consistently. Jab has pretty decent range comes out frame 2.

6. Matchup weaknesses which have stemmed from a poor understanding of Doc. It's fine to think a character wins or loses against Mewtwo, but you don't understand the character so your theory does not apply. And linking me to matches of other characters to prove a point is laziness. It's this kind of analysis that makes Doc seem much weaker than he actually is.

 

[Browny]

That Zudenka match was an awful representation of how to approach this matchup IMO.

He is hyper aggressive and gets wrecked because of it. Remember, if you saw a Rosalina player constantly rushing the enemy and throwing out yolo smashes youd say they were playing it wrong. Thats what I see there. Literally charging in non stop and losing trades is an exhibition in how to lose with Mewtwo.

Mewtwos defenses are frame safe, doc can not punish dtilt or fair. There was precisely none of that in that match.

Seriously Doc is spacing bairs and Zudenka thinks the best answer to this situation is to run in and disable. You cant excuse that decision making, you deserve to lose the set when you do things like that.

 

[!Blue!]

1. Good for you, but we're not talking about For Glory.

2. Mewtwo's defense is not super strong. It's just better than his offense. Rosalina's defense is strong because of Luma and because of Rosalina's range on her moves (tilts, nair, etc.). Mega Man's defense is strong because of his ability to throw out multiple projectiles quickly that cover various areas around him. Mewtwo's is ok but it's not strong because everything he doesn't deny area control as effectively.

3. I understand the playstyle that you're supposed to implement but linking me to a match against Luigi and Falcon (a good Luigi, but still not relevant) doesn't prove a point nor does it show what to do against Doc. If you just assume that Doc has the same problems as Luigi then I don't know what to say really. Doc has a low shorthop so it's going to be harder for Mewtwo to fend him off when he gets in or to punish him by grabbing. Doc doesn't have traction issues like Luigi does so he can punish you harder. Doc doesn't have bottom 3 airspeed and is not floaty so he cannot be juggled as easily. Having Tornado to blitz through moves and mix up his landing is a huge boon. Luigi cannot do this as well with his Cyclone. Based off of the video you linked and the points above, I'd say Luigi has a harder time than Doc does against Mewtwo. Pretty strange that you have Luigi as an even matchup but Doc as an advantageous one.

Mario has an easier time because he can catch up to Mewtwo and combo him, but as far as KO potential is concerned, his punishes are not nearly as rewarding (this character cannot kill without Up-Smash or rage) and he cannot edgeguard as effectively (Mewtwo has an advantage here). Mario has no reason to use FLUDD against Mewtwo, unless he's in the lead or if the Mewtwo player tries to recover and fails miserably. Even then, FLUDD is not a move that should be used in neutral because it doesn't do anything useful. Fireball is more useful here.

I could also say in a best of 3 setting, Mewtwo loses to Doc because of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpQ3PC4uU6A - And Kudemo is, in my opinion, a pretty good Doc. But I don't think either of them were that familiar with their character's options. Zudenka is more familiar with Yoshi vs Doc because they play that matchup frequently.

4. It's funny that you think Doc is great against characters without projectiles and just wins trades.

5. You keep saying this without saying why. Mewtwo's d tilt is not the answer to everything and Mewtwo does not hopelessly outspace Doc otherwise. Doc's down tilt has pretty decent range, and comes out 1 frame faster. Bair comes out at the same speed as Mewtwo's D-tilt, does more damage and hits characters whether they're ground or not more consistently. Jab has pretty decent range comes out frame 2.

6. Matchup weaknesses which have stemmed from a poor understanding of Doc. It's fine to think a character wins or loses against Mewtwo, but you don't understand the character so your theory does not apply. And linking me to matches of other characters to prove a point is laziness. It's this kind of analysis that makes Doc seem much weaker than he actually is.

Hey guys i figured i would actually post in here now i use mewtwo more than sonic...but mewtwo's dtilt is his bread and butter. He can very much wall out any character that doesnt have fast arial options. Small shadowballs and dtilts stop ground approaches. He has the tools to wall out most aside from zss fox and shiek. Lol mewtwo does NOT have a boxing game so try your best to space with the length of your tail at all times until setups reveal itself to get your damage in. It doesnt take many hits for mewtwo to put his opponents at kill %

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

That Zudenka match was an awful representation of how to approach this matchup IMO.

He is hyper aggressive and gets wrecked because of it. Remember, if you saw a Rosalina player constantly rushing the enemy and throwing out yolo smashes youd say they were playing it wrong. Thats what I see there. Literally charging in non stop and losing trades is an exhibition in how to lose with Mewtwo.

Mewtwos defenses are frame safe, doc can not punish dtilt or fair. There was precisely none of that in that match.

You missed the point. Your video was just as "useful" for analyzing the Doc vs Mewtwo matchup.

EDIT: Yes he can, Kudemo just didn't do it. Up-B.

Hey guys i figured i would actually post in here now i use mewtwo more than sonic...but mewtwo's dtilt is his bread and butter. He can very much wall out any character that doesnt have fast arial options. Small shadowballs and dtilts stop ground approaches. He has the tools to wall out most aside from zss fox and shiek. Lol mewtwo does NOT have a boxing game so try your best to space with the length of your tail at all times until setups reveal itself to get your damage in. It doesnt take many hits for mewtwo to put his opponents at kill %

I like your play and I agree with your assessment of Mewtwo's strengths and weaknesses (for the most part). However, the original point of contention was on the Doc vs Mewtwo matchup, which I think was exaggerating Mewtwo's strengths vs. Doc.

 

[!Blue!]

You missed the point. Your video was just as "useful" for analyzing the Doc vs Mewtwo matchup.

EDIT: Yes he can, Kudemo just didn't do it. Up-B.



I like your play and I agree with your assessment of Mewtwo's strengths and weaknesses (for the most part). However, the original point of contention was on the Doc vs Mewtwo matchup, which I think was exaggerating Mewtwo's strengths vs. Doc.

It is exaggerated and thank you. Lol my point is dont sit close and just about any match can be won. I even beat mr. R's shiek and ryu a few times...haha probably due to lack of match up exp. On his end but its not horrible. All mewtwo players must respect and understand mewtwos close range game limitations :D

 

[Browny]

Doc cant punish mewtwos spaced dtilt or fair on block, this isn't up for debate. I posted that video to prove a point, which funnily enough was somewhat proven by your video. Look at the difference in patience between the two Mewtwos. One lets the other player come to then, one thinks confusion is a great approaching option. Unsurprisingly the defensive one wins.

This isnt directed at you Eight_SixtyFour but I just get so frustrated when I watch people playing Mewtwo and they just dont use his frame safe moves. I just sit here going 'How many times are they going give up stage control for free - oh, one more apparently'.

If someone played Sheik but they refused to use needles or fair, they would be significantly easier to beat and people would criticise it.
If someone plays Diddy and tried ftilt-usmash over and over and it misses because dtilt is the combo move, it would be easier to beat.

Having safe-on-block moves is a stupidly good trait, its why sheik and zss are so dominant in this game when they can throw out their deadly combo starters for free until they hit, because they will eventually.

I firmly believe that if Zudenka made any effort whatsoever to abuse the fact that Mewtwo outranges Doc, he would have won comfortably. To be fair, both players were trying to make a damn combo vid in that set and Kudemo is just as bad with his reckless aggression. The difference is, Doc has the weight advantage to lose a few more trades per stock.

 

[!Blue!]

Doc cant punish mewtwos spaced dtilt or fair on block, this isn't up for debate. I posted that video to prove a point, which funnily enough was somewhat proven by your video. Look at the difference in patience between the two Mewtwos. One lets the other player come to then, one thinks confusion is a great approaching option. Unsurprisingly the defensive one wins.

This isnt directed at you Eight_SixtyFour but I just get so frustrated when I watch people playing Mewtwo and they just dont use his frame safe moves. I just sit here going 'How many times are they going give up stage control for free - oh, one more apparently'.

If someone played Sheik but they refused to use needles or fair, they would be significantly easier to beat and people would criticise it.
If someone plays Diddy and tried ftilt-usmash over and over and it misses because dtilt is the combo move, it would be easier to beat.

Having safe-on-block moves is a stupidly good trait, its why sheik and zss are so dominant in this game when they can throw out their deadly combo starters for free until they hit, because they will eventually.

I firmly believe that if Zudenka made any effort whatsoever to abuse the fact that Mewtwo outranges Doc, he would have won comfortably. To be fair, both players were trying to make a damn combo vid in that set and Kudemo is just as bad with his reckless aggression. The difference is, Doc has the weight advantage to lose a few more trades per stock.

Agreed

 

[Sonicninja115]

It is exaggerated and thank you. Lol my point is dont sit close and just about any match can be won. I even beat mr. R's shiek and ryu a few times...haha probably due to lack of match up exp. On his end but its not horrible. All mewtwo players must respect and understand mewtwos close range game limitations :D

Awesome! It's great to see top/high level smashers grace these boards. I was solo happy when you picked up Mewtwo!

I have to agree with Browny here. Though I mainly agree with the Mario MU because of RayNoire, his brother or something is a high level Mario, and he says that it is 70:30, which is probably a small overstatement.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Doc cant punish mewtwos spaced dtilt or fair on block, this isn't up for debate. I posted that video to prove a point, which funnily enough was somewhat proven by your video. Look at the difference in patience between the two Mewtwos. One lets the other player come to then, one thinks confusion is a great approaching option. Unsurprisingly the defensive one wins.

This isnt directed at you Eight_SixtyFour but I just get so frustrated when I watch people playing Mewtwo and they just dont use his frame safe moves. I just sit here going 'How many times are they going give up stage control for free - oh, one more apparently'.

If someone played Sheik but they refused to use needles or fair, they would be significantly easier to beat and people would criticise it.
If someone plays Diddy and tried ftilt-usmash over and over and it misses because dtilt is the combo move, it would be easier to beat.

Having safe-on-block moves is a stupidly good trait, its why sheik and zss are so dominant in this game when they can throw out their deadly combo starters for free until they hit, because they will eventually.

I firmly believe that if Zudenka made any effort whatsoever to abuse the fact that Mewtwo outranges Doc, he would have won comfortably. To be fair, both players were trying to make a damn combo vid in that set and Kudemo is just as bad with his reckless aggression. The difference is, Doc has the weight advantage to lose a few more trades per stock.

Yes, but I wasn't disagreeing with the optimal playstyle for Mewtwo. I've seen videos of good Mewtwos (Mew^2, Blue, Sparky, etc.) and good players using Mewtwo (Abadango) and the defensive one wins. I was stating that your video doesn't prove anything about the Doc vs Mewtwo matchup, probably because it didn't feature Doc vs Mewtwo and that one player knew more about his opponents' character and knew his options. I can say "Hey Mewtwo loses to Doc and here's why" and present a video like the one above. It wouldn't be valid.

Yes, from the perspective of a Mewtwo player, I would have cringed (and did) when I saw the way Zudenka played Mewtwo. That's how most of the players there play. Kudemo's Doc is still good, but a tad bit aggressive. He understands his characters options, something I don't see a lot with a lot of Doc players. There are better Doc players (Koolaid, 2manycooks, etc.), but this was to show something.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yes, but I wasn't disagreeing with the optimal playstyle for Mewtwo. I've seen videos of good Mewtwos (Mew^2, Blue, Sparky, etc.) and good players using Mewtwo (Abadango) and the defensive one wins. I was stating that your video doesn't prove anything about the Doc vs Mewtwo matchup, probably because it didn't feature Doc vs Mewtwo and that one player knew more about his opponents' character and knew his options. I can post one video and say "Hey Mewtwo loses to Doc and here's why" and present a video like the one above. It wouldn't be valid.

Yes, from the perspective of a Mewtwo player, I would have cringed (and did) when I saw the way Zudenka played Mewtwo. That's how most of the players there play. Kudemo's Doc is still good, but a tad bit aggressive. He understands his characters options, something I don't see a lot with a lot of Doc players. There are better Doc players (Koolaid, 2manycooks, etc.), but this was to show something.

Small note, Aba secondary's Mewtwo and regularly labs him.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Small note, Aba secondary's Mewtwo and regularly labs him.

I'm aware. That's why I listed him as a good player that uses Mewtwo rather than a Mewtwo main. His patience is incredible.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'm aware. That's why I listed him as a good player that uses Mewtwo rather than a Mewtwo main. His patience is incredible.

Did you see his set with SH? He didn't pull out anything new, but it was super crazy, especially for a MU that bad for Mewtwo. I understand, thanks for clarifying!

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Did you see his set with SH? He didn't pull out anything new, but it was super crazy, especially for a MU that bad for Mewtwo. I understand, thanks for clarifying!

I saw the second stock. I missed his SD. But yeah, he did really well. He was just so much better than his opponent. He could have taken it!

 

[!Blue!]

If you guys have a mewtwo group chat please inform me id like to join and help practice with fellow mewtwo mains. Im sure i can learn a lot from you guys

 

[Sonicninja115]

I saw the second stock. I missed his SD. But yeah, he did really well. He was just so much better than his opponent. He could have taken it!

You should see the ten seconds before he SD's, he destroys SH, completely, utterly. Dabuz did a stream analysis, it is at the 2:30 mark I think.

If you guys have a mewtwo group chat please inform me id like to join and help practice with fellow mewtwo mains. Im sure i can learn a lot from you guys

the closest we have right now is a labbing discussion on Smashboards. You can join if you want. It is really a thing where we can say, hey, I have a jab-lock thread coming out, what do you guys think? What can I change? As well as our findings, so we can find out more about them and post a more comprehensive finding.
For example, Dtilt-Fair true combos at 100% if you hit them off the ledge. If you get the 2 frame window or their invince ability runs out, then you have an easy and guaranteed kill. However, I want to test it out and confirm it before making a thread about it and posting it.

It isn't as much of a labbing thread as a tech and strategy discussion. I am personally against most discord or Skype groups, as they are easier for communication, but tend to alienate community members and make information harder to find. All the info in discussions needs to end up on Smashboards or else it will probably never be found.

If you have any questions, the Metagame thread is a great place to discuss strategies and other metagamey stuff. And we also have a general MU discussion thread.

If you have any questions, PM me or use the Q&A thread. Also, the labbing conversation is probably going to end up being more of a Mewtwo discussion thing, a place to discuss a multitude of things.

If anyone wants to join, feel free to ask!

 

[!Blue!]

You should see the ten seconds before he SD's, he destroys SH, completely, utterly. Dabuz did a stream analysis, it is at the 2:30 mark I think.

the closest we have right now is a labbing discussion on Smashboards. You can join if you want. It is really a thing where we can say, hey, I have a jab-lock thread coming out, what do you guys think? What can I change? As well as our findings, so we can find out more about them and post a more comprehensive finding.
For example, Dtilt-Fair true combos at 100% if you hit them off the ledge. If you get the 2 frame window or their invince ability runs out, then you have an easy and guaranteed kill. However, I want to test it out and confirm it before making a thread about it and posting it.

It isn't as much of a labbing thread as a tech and strategy discussion. I am personally against most discord or Skype groups, as they are easier for communication, but tend to alienate community members and make information harder to find. All the info in discussions needs to end up on Smashboards or else it will probably never be found.

If you have any questions, the Metagame thread is a great place to discuss strategies and other metagamey stuff. And we also have a general MU discussion thread.

If you have any questions, PM me or use the Q&A thread. Also, the labbing conversation is probably going to end up being more of a Mewtwo discussion thing, a place to discuss a multitude of things.

If anyone wants to join, feel free to ask!

Ahh ok. :D then expect me from time to time

 

[LRodC]

So how does Mewtwo soundly beat Duck Hunt? I don't struggle too hard with it most of the time, but DH usually outcamps Mewtwo since he has tons of options, can wall from Shadow Ball with gunmen and the can, and he punishes approaches with a well timed can. Is it because he has trouble killing?

 

[Sonicninja115]

So how does Mewtwo soundly beat Duck Hunt? I don't struggle too hard with it most of the time, but DH usually outcamps Mewtwo since he has tons of options, can wall from Shadow Ball with gunmen and the can, and he punishes approaches with a well timed can. Is it because he has trouble killing?

I think one reason is definetly DHD's trouble with killing, however, DH has a horrid recovery without a hitbox, making gimping a piece of cake.

The projectiles are bothersome, but can be overcome. Mewtwo can also break through his defensive game, with his large tilts and confusion.

There are other things as well, but not as important.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Duck Hunt-Mewtwo is probably 50-50. Duck Hunt has an easier time landing a KO against Mewtwo, and Mewtwo can defy the many projectiles with Confusion and Down Tilt disjoint.

 

[Virum]

Duck Hunt-Mewtwo is probably 50-50. Duck Hunt has an easier time landing a KO against Mewtwo, and Mewtwo can defy the many projectiles with Confusion and Down Tilt disjoint.

Duck Hunt definitely doesn't have an easier time landing the KO vs Mewtwo. In fact Duck Hunt probably struggles the most with landing KOs in the game. It has 3 slow, punishable smashes that don't even work reliably; no kill throws and no solid way to set up into its more unorthodox kill moves like UAir. All it really has is the can and because that's such an important part of its moveset it's likely going to be pretty stale. Meanwhile Mewtwo not only has a greater number of reliable kill moves but also edgeguards Duck Hunt for absolutely free due to its incredibly mediocre recovery. Even with the weight difference Mewtwo should definitely be the one having an easier time killing.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Duck Hunt definitely doesn't have an easier time landing the KO vs Mewtwo. In fact Duck Hunt probably struggles the most with landing KOs in the game. It has 3 slow, punishable smashes that don't even work reliably; no kill throws and no solid way to set up into its more unorthodox kill moves like UAir. All it really has is the can and because that's such an important part of its moveset it's likely going to be pretty stale. Meanwhile Mewtwo not only has a greater number of reliable kill moves but also edgeguards Duck Hunt for absolutely free due to its incredibly mediocre recovery. Even with the weight difference Mewtwo should definitely be the one having an easier time killing.

You can literally tech out of DH's Dsmash, same with Cloud.

Also, some new/ish combos! Check them out: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4VvZE_JJu28dAuncjd_P35uM4anztPV

 

[Metalex]

You can literally tech out of DH's Dsmash, same with Cloud.

Also, some new/ish combos! Check them out: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4VvZE_JJu28dAuncjd_P35uM4anztPV

Cool, Never thought 4 Uairs could combo backwards like that! Looks like it could be useful since Uair > fj Bair > dj Bair > Bair isn't always very reliable.

The Dtilt > DJ Uair > Dair string is also pretty nice, i usually go for a Fair since it true combos but Dair works surprisingly often too. If you can condition the opponent to airdodge after the Uair it seem to work well as a airdodge read if you delay the Dair slightly.

Reverse JC Usmash is a pretty good tech for some characters, Particulary useful for Mario for example, but it doesn't seem to have much use for Mewtwo as his Usmash hitbox is the same on both sides (or so i think?)

(Also the Fair > Dtilt > Fair > Fair string already worked prepatch but im pretty sure you knew that)

 

[Sonicninja115]

Cool, Never thought 4 Uairs could combo backwards like that! Looks like it could be useful since Uair > fj Bair > dj Bair > Bair isn't always very reliable.

The Dtilt > DJ Uair > Dair string is also pretty nice, i usually go for a Fair since it true combos but Dair works surprisingly often too. If you can condition the opponent to airdodge after the Uair it seem to work well as a airdodge read if you delay the Dair slightly.

Reverse JC Usmash is a pretty good tech for some characters, Particulary useful for Mario for example, but it doesn't seem to have much use for Mewtwo as his Usmash hitbox is the same on both sides (or so i think?)

(Also the Fair > Dtilt > Fair > Fair string already worked prepatch but im pretty sure you knew that)

I knew it was a string, but this one trues. And yeah, that is the not-really-new combo I was talking about.

The nice part about Dtilt-DJ Uair-Dair is that it works earlier then Fair, about 30% on ZSS.

I agree, the reverse Usmash is situational. I only know about it because it is pretty good with Shulk.

 

[Virum]

Nvm, ignore this.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Inner front area of Utilt chains into itself for a short while, that while being extended with a faster fall. Fox gets trapped into it until 72% and you can follow up with a turnaround forward smash into a dair meteor attempt offstage.

Also, I counterpick Duck Hunt, and the smashes themselves are not a problem, in fact they're very strong and KO pretty early when used correctly. DH's biggest challenge is getting to a point where the smash attack is safe to use, because it is not safe on shield (though it is safe on roll if it's fsmash), or landing the strangely timed meteor bird offstage. Back air is also a KO option, but you must be offstage and Duck Hunt has only that option to hit behind.

 

[Metalex]

The Legendary DJXYZ Yeah it's pretty cool! Smart idea with the turnaround F-smash to finish it.

A little while back@420quickscoper made a thread on which characters it works on which you can check out http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwos-up-tilt-combo.424162/ and Jab > weak Utilt > Usmash or weak Utilt > Usmash is a KO confirm on some characters at higher percents, which i made a thread on which is a similiar subject http://smashboards.com/threads/jab-or-utilt-ko-setup-characters-percents.422787/

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh, and don't try to grab Duck Hunt after a smash, he ducks too low.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Oh, and don't try to grab Duck Hunt after a smash, he ducks too low.

When I was trying to do a Rising Fair combo, I had to wait until he was done with the idle animation, or else the Fair would whiff.

 

[Metalex]

Just reposting the video i posted in the Mewtwo lab chat so everyone can see it

"Double jump canceled shadowball charge buffered shield" - DJCSBCBS

(Needs a different name, it's way too long lol)

With this technique it allows us to:

*Turnaround shield at any time during a dash animation as opposed to waveshadowball > shield which must be done after the initial dash frames are done.

*Jump up on the ledge and shield faster than a normal getup (and also shadowball if you skip the buffer shield part)

*Can be used to immediately after a teleport cancel land on the edge your teleport canceling to and shield (but in the example i use a shadowball)

 

[Cornbrd]

Not sure if this has been discussed or not...

An underapreicated atribute for Mewtwo is DJ areials, espesically on platforms. One thing I like to do is FH nair (auto cancels) onto a platform to avoid knockback (thus comboing).

I tried DJ fair to dair and it works pretty good around 35% (requires fast falling)

Underapreicentated meta?

Also rip in spelling

 

[Sonicninja115]

Not sure if this has been discussed or not...

An underapreicated atribute for Mewtwo is DJ areials, espesically on platforms. One thing I like to do is FH nair (auto cancels) onto a platform to avoid knockback (thus comboing).

I tried DJ fair to dair and it works pretty good around 35% (requires fast falling)

Underapreicentated meta?

Also rip in spelling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w208T3sgr4w

Video hasn't been updated yet but this applies.

 

[Cornbrd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w208T3sgr4w

Video hasn't been updated yet but this applies.

Yeah I feel like this is one of his most vital atributes also sick ass combo lol

 

[Aninymouse]

Just posting my idea of a match-up spread

I have experience vs like, 1/3 of the characters here offline with people who main them, most are online. Those that I don't play I base my rating on what I have seen when watching tournaments.

I believe that Mewtwo is not the sort of character who has strong match-ups either way, like most characters in this game. Those characters he can style on easily and also end his stock pretty quickly and those who cal wall him out, struggle to get past his walls when he is in the lead. As such, I only rate characters as even, advantage or disadvantage. Characters in even may very well have an advantage (either way) but it is not significant enough to the point that I feel like a 2/3 set win is anywhere near as likely.

Match-up spreads should really only focus on a 2/3 or 3/5 set scenario since plenty of characters can get wins with random lucky reads or gimps but pulling them off in 2/3 matches is too unreliable.

Advantage:
Even:
Disadvantage:

What an odd list. I'd think Ike-Mewtwo would be 50:50 at worst. I'd also think that Ness (sans back throw cheese) would be far easier than Lucas.

You had to have guessed at a ton of these... Better to talk about matchups you feel confident about than to take wild guesses at the entire cast. You don't have to be Superman, y'know? Just talk about what you know.

 

[Sonicninja115]

What an odd list. I'd think Ike-Mewtwo would be 50:50 at worst. I'd also think that Ness (sans back throw cheese) would be far easier than Lucas.

You had to have guessed at a ton of these... Better to talk about matchups you feel confident about than to take wild guesses at the entire cast. You don't have to be Superman, y'know? Just talk about what you know.

Actually I find Mewtwo vs. Lucas to be a pain in the butt.

Also, check out my channel for various Combos and AT's people! I can't double post, so only about half my vids end up advertised here.

 

[Aninymouse]

Actually I find Mewtwo vs. Lucas to be a pain in the butt.

Also, check out my channel for various Combos and AT's people! I can't double post, so only about half my vids end up advertised here.

That's what I'm saying. Sorry for the confusion heheh I think Mewtwo beats Ness much, much easier than Lucas. Lucas's Nair is just disgusting now.

Also, I subscribed to you long ago, fam. I've learned much from you!

 

[Sonicninja115]

That's what I'm saying. Sorry for the confusion heheh I think Mewtwo beats Ness much, much easier than Lucas. Lucas's Nair is just disgusting now.

Also, I subscribed to you long ago, fam. I've learned much from you!

Oh, so you're the hidden sub. Thanks!

New things. @MewSquared is a god with Mewtwo. P2P Gibbs was DI'ing Fthrow at low Percents and only coming away with 11% instead of 13-16%.

Use DJ and then immediately Fair to trick up the opponent while still being safe.

Can someone try to look into frame traps and such? I wonder if you airdodge an Uair, will a second Uair hit in the lag frames? Or Fair maybe? I was looking into jump Uair-Falling Uair as a frame trap, airdodge the first one, get hit by the second? Plus the falling Uair might combo.

U-turn is godlike.

Why the heck is everybody suddenly using fake EDD? I have seen so many people start using it in the past week or three.

Genesis Hype!

 

[Aninymouse]

Oh, so you're the hidden sub. Thanks!

New things. @MewSquared is a god with Mewtwo. P2P Gibbs was DI'ing Fthrow at low Percents and only coming away with 11% instead of 13-16%.

Use DJ and then immediately Fair to trick up the opponent while still being safe.

Can someone try to look into frame traps and such? I wonder if you airdodge an Uair, will a second Uair hit in the lag frames? Or Fair maybe? I was looking into jump Uair-Falling Uair as a frame trap, airdodge the first one, get hit by the second? Plus the falling Uair might combo.

U-turn is godlike.

Why the heck is everybody suddenly using fake EDD? I have seen so many people start using it in the past week or three.

Genesis Hype!

Genesis hype!

So... is this whole post about Mewtwo dittos? I can't tell what exactly you're stream-of-consciousnessing about

Yes, Gibus and Mew² are great. Just discovered !Blue! today, and I think he's really good as well. It's cool to finally have some tournament players turn some heads with Mewtwo!