Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[Sonicninja115]

Genesis hype!

So... is this whole post about Mewtwo dittos? I can't tell what exactly you're stream-of-consciousnessing about

Yes, Gibus and Mew² are great. Just discovered @!Blue! today, and I think he's really good as well. It's cool to finally have some tournament players turn some heads with Mewtwo!

Look up Jaxelrod on youtube. Blue plays at a weekly there.

It is just a list of points, nothing to do with each other. I often categorize it like that because people don't respond here often.

 

[Aninymouse]

Look up Jaxelrod on youtube. Blue plays at a weekly there.

It is just a list of points, nothing to do with each other. I often categorize it like that because people don't respond here often.

Yeah, I subbed to their channel this afternoon. I love watching weeklies. I still watch Xanadu a lot, but I've been branching out... Tourney Locator is the only one I've been stubborn about, because they upload more Melee than Smash 4.

About your bullet points, were you asking if Mewtwo Uair could be used as a frame trap for air dodges?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yeah, I subbed to their channel this afternoon. I love watching weeklies. I still watch Xanadu a lot, but I've been branching out... Tourney Locator is the only one I've been stubborn about, because they upload more Melee than Smash 4.

About your bullet points, were you asking if Mewtwo Uair could be used as a frame trap for air dodges?

Yep. I don't think they can be perfectly used, as an airdodge is usually 30? Frames, 6 of which is lag or something, but it could work. I wasn't able to lab anything today, annoyingly.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah, I subbed to their channel this afternoon. I love watching weeklies. I still watch Xanadu a lot, but I've been branching out... Tourney Locator is the only one I've been stubborn about, because they upload more Melee than Smash 4.

About your bullet points, were you asking if Mewtwo Uair could be used as a frame trap for air dodges?

I usually frame trap airdodges with... nothing (or fake uairs if you prefer).

 

[Spikezillian]

About your bullet points, were you asking if Mewtwo Uair could be used as a frame trap for air dodges?

What's a frame trap? I dont think Mewtwo players have that in their dictionary xD

In all seriousness, maybe fair or something will do that? That's kinda stretching it.

 

[MewSquared]

What's a frame trap? I dont think Mewtwo players have that in their dictionary xD

In all seriousness, maybe fair or something will do that? That's kinda stretching it.

Speak for yourself mate, Mewtwo actually has some pretty sick frame traps, especially with uncharged shadow ball. Plus now with his movement speed buff it works better

 

[Aninymouse]

Speak for yourself mate, Mewtwo actually has some pretty sick frame traps, especially with uncharged shadow ball. Plus now with him movement speed buff it works better

Is Mewtwo's Dash Attack safe on shield? My instincts tell me "no."

I've seen people follow Shadow Ball with a Dash Attack. It seems to work nicely. Obviously, think twice before doing this against reflector characters.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is Mewtwo's Dash Attack safe on shield? My instincts tell me "no."

I've seen people follow Shadow Ball with a Dash Attack. It seems to work nicely. Obviously, think twice before doing this against reflector characters.

People experience hitstun from the SB, allowing many follow-ups. SB-DA isn't true, but it works.

DA isn not safe on shield.

MewSquared you need to drop in more often! We could always use your wisdom bombs.

 

[MewSquared]

Is Mewtwo's Dash Attack safe on shield? My instincts tell me "no."

I've seen people follow Shadow Ball with a Dash Attack. It seems to work nicely. Obviously, think twice before doing this against reflector characters.

Umm is it safe on shield... Not really... I mean yeah you can use charged shadow ball and even uncharged prior to the dash attack for some shield pressure, but they can shield grab you. If you space it early so the weaker hotbox connects, a bit less time but I would imagine you can still be punished with low frame moves. I will admit I have gotten away with hitting it on shield before...

 

[MewSquared]

Umm is it safe on shield... Not really... I mean yeah you can use charged shadow ball and even uncharged prior to the dash attack for some shield pressure, but they can shield grab you. If you space it early so the weaker hotbox connects, a bit less time but I would imagine you can still be punished with low frame moves. But I will say I have gotten away with hitting shield before...

 

[Aninymouse]

Umm is it safe on shield... Not really... I mean yeah you can use charged shadow ball and even uncharged prior to the dash attack for some shield pressure, but they can shield grab you. If you space it early so the weaker hotbox connects, a bit less time but I would imagine you can still be punished with low frame moves. I will admit I have gotten away with hitting it on shield before...

That's what I thought. I've seen people do charged Shadow Ball into Dash Attack as a quick punish for people who want to drop shield and react to SB, and the DA often hits, but I got the feeling it was a very risky play. Thanks

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey, Mewtwo's dash to Shield is 10 frames, and his Foxtrot is 21 frames of animation.

Does anyone want to do the math for DJCSBCBSD?

 

[Krysco]

Double jump cancel, shadow ball cancel back slash dance. First thing that came to mind What's the bsd at the end?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Double jump cancel, shadow ball cancel back slash dance. First thing that came to mind What's the bsd at the end?

Double Jump Cancel, ShadowBall Cancel, Buffer Shield Drop. Metalex has a video and a long post somewhere on this page or the last.

 

[Aninymouse]

Double Jump Cancel, ShadowBall Cancel, Buffer Shield Drop. Metalex has a video and a long post somewhere on this page or the last.

Pulling that off requires a lot of practice. I'm not sure it's worth it. I'd like to see the technique utilized in a real combo or string to showcase the practical applications, because right now it comes off as a waste of time.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Pulling that off requires a lot of practice. I'm not sure it's worth it. I'd like to see the technique utilized in a real combo or string to showcase the practical applications, because right now it comes off as a waste of time.

I'll work on it.

Edit: You can teleport to the ledge from the smashville platform. and LC from the lylat respawn spot.

 

[Mr. B]

Umm is it safe on shield... Not really... I mean yeah you can use charged shadow ball and even uncharged prior to the dash attack for some shield pressure, but they can shield grab you. If you space it early so the weaker hotbox connects, a bit less time but I would imagine you can still be punished with low frame moves. I will admit I have gotten away with hitting it on shield before...

SB (shielded) to DA is one of my favourites, since the opponent often seems to try and drop shield after blocking the SB for a cheap attack. Once they have been conditioned to hold up the shield for longer, they suffer my dashgrab, and if they refuse to be conditioned as such I try SB dash into Disable to really give them something to think about.

 

[Sonicninja115]

SB (shielded) to DA is one of my favourites, since the opponent often seems to try and drop shield after blocking the SB for a cheap attack. Once they have been conditioned to hold up the shield for longer, they suffer my dashgrab, and if they refuse to be conditioned as such I try SB dash into Disable to really give them something to think about.

Do you think Usmash could shieldpoke them?

 

[Metalex]

Double jump cancel, shadow ball cancel back slash dance. First thing that came to mind What's the bsd at the end?

"Double Jump Cancel Shadowball Charge Buffer Shield" (then the d stands for drop but you can also jump or do any Oos option)

Here's a video i made when i started messing around with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqij6N8ImWQ

This was just a quick video i did with the initial thoughts of what you can do with it but there's probably some more uses for it that i haven't listed if you master it. (For example i got a KO yesterday by teleport canceling to the edge and doing a B reverse djcsbcbs into a Oos Usmash, made it look like the Usmash almost was instant after teleporting to the edge)

Aninymouse It's not particulary difficult to do if you get the timing correctly, it's really just jump >DJ > shadowball + buffer shield in a really quick manner, then if you want to do it repeatedly or do the shorthopped shadowball charge buffershield you can just continue to hold the shield button.

I agree that it might not seem very useful at the moment but i mostly did the video quickly when i discovered it so people could lab a bit with it. I'll try to show some more practical uses for it maybe in some of my matches or something soon!

 

[Aninymouse]

"Double Jump Cancel Shadowball Charge Buffer Shield" (then the d stands for drop but you can also jump or do any Oos option)

Here's a video i made when i started messing around with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqij6N8ImWQ

This was just a quick video i did with the initial thoughts of what you can do with it but there's probably some more uses for it that i haven't listed if you master it. (For example i got a KO yesterday by teleport canceling to the edge and doing a B reverse djcsbcbs into a Oos Usmash, made it look like the Usmash almost was instant after teleporting to the edge)

Aninymouse It's not particulary difficult to do if you get the timing correctly, it's really just jump >DJ > shadowball + buffer shield in a really quick manner, then if you want to do it repeatedly or do the shorthopped shadowball charge buffershield you can just continue to hold the shield button.

I agree that it might not seem very useful at the moment but i mostly did the video quickly when i discovered it so people could lab a bit with it. I'll try to show some more practical uses for it maybe in some of my matches or something soon!

Thanks. For me, I have to see reward in a technique before I commit to practicing it. Smash 4 has a lot of small tricks, but I only pay attention to the ones that seem to have a payoff. I've never been a tech-skill-centric player.

 

[Mr. B]

Do you think Usmash could shieldpoke them?

To be honest, I am REALLY careful about my USmash use (total YOLO), and I don't think I have tried using it in this way. Its effectiveness probably depends on how familiar your opponent is with fighting Mewtwo?

 

[Sonicninja115]

To be honest, I am REALLY careful about my USmash use (total YOLO), and I don't think I have tried using it in this way. Its effectiveness probably depends on how familiar your opponent is with fighting Mewtwo?

A good tactic might be FC SB on an opponent on a platform, fastfall, and then dash-Usmash. it wouldn't true, but I don't know how much time they would have to react. And it would definitely shieldpoke them there.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Computer glitched...

 

[Mr. B]

A good tactic might be FC SB on an opponent on a platform, fastfall, and then dash-Usmash. it wouldn't true, but I don't know how much time they would have to react. And it would definitely shieldpoke them there.

I mainly play 1on1FG, so I don't have much license to comment other than to say you might get away with it a few times, but a savvy player will tech, roll, or do something else to line up for a punish... and USmash is VERY punishable...

However, you have gotten me thinking about approaches that could lead into it. Later tonight when I get home I will be testing the viability of horizontal teleport >USmash...

 

[Sonicninja115]

I mainly play 1on1FG, so I don't have much license to comment other than to say you might get away with it a few times, but a savvy player will tech, roll, or do something else to line up for a punish... and USmash is VERY punishable...

However, you have gotten me thinking about approaches that could lead into it. Later tonight when I get home I will be testing the viability of horizontal teleport >USmash...

The thing with Usmash is that it covers most options. You have to shield it completely if hit by one of the hits (on shield) and your only option is to jump away fast. Otherwise, Usmash beats all options.

 

[Mr. B]

The thing with Usmash is that it covers most options. You have to shield it completely if hit by one of the hits (on shield) and your only option is to jump away fast. Otherwise, Usmash beats all options.

Only if it hits. I stopped using USmash prolifically when I started to realise I was being baited into it, and losing the exchange.

Horizontal teleport to USmash gave me no joy at all. Almost caught a Captain Falcon in one last night as he was falling-FP, but I took the punch to the face instead. I showed him my moves and they were inadequate.

 

[Swoops]

You don't use punishable moves expecting to be punished. You use them when you know they have a very good chance of working. Stop getting baited :3

USmash has a very good chance of working A LOT of the time, considering it's one of the quickest USmashes in the game and the second highest duration to boot. I think it's easily one of his best punish moves, both OoS USmash and shield drop > dash JC USmash. Speaking of smashes, I'm finding a lot more use for FSmash after realizing that the 19% sweetspot is at the tip. It's a lot safer than I thought and has that extra range to fish for kills outside of DSmash range.

Also, everybody should be using their DJ UAir combo extenders. I know I'm not >.<

 

[Sonicninja115]

You don't use punishable moves expecting to be punished. You use them when you know they have a very good chance of working. Stop getting baited :3

USmash has a very good chance of working A LOT of the time, considering it's one of the quickest USmashes in the game and the second highest duration to boot. I think it's easily one of his best punish moves, both OoS USmash and shield drop > dash JC USmash. Speaking of smashes, I'm finding a lot more use for FSmash after realizing that the 19% sweetspot is at the tip. It's a lot safer than I thought and has that extra range to fish for kills outside of DSmash range.

Also, everybody should be using their DJ UAir combo extenders. I know I'm not >.<

Fsmashes are great to cover ledge reads. As a perfectly spaced one will kill stupidly early. (Percents are in the guide) other then that, I prefer Usmash, and then Dsmash.

I agree. The Uair to Bair/Fair/Uair string is great, and can be used in so many places. I have found a couple of combos using it, but I am trying to push the limits of them a bit. Expect them in the next 2 weeks hopefully.

 

[Mr. B]

You don't use punishable moves expecting to be punished. You use them when you know they have a very good chance of working. Stop getting baited :3

Actually, I already don't use punishable moves because I expect my opponent to be able to punish me for them. I work to squeeze USmash in when it is appropriate, but more often I feel that it puts me in in a vulnerable position and other moves feel so much safer.

Sorry to say, I simply don't agree that USmash has a good chance of working "a lot of the time". But that's all part of the rich tapestry of arguing with people on the internet, right?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Actually, I already don't use punishable moves because I expect my opponent to be able to punish me for them. I work to squeeze USmash in when it is appropriate, but more often I feel that it puts me in in a vulnerable position and other moves feel so much safer.

Sorry to say, I simply don't agree that USmash has a good chance of working "a lot of the time". But that's all part of the rich tapestry of arguing with people on the internet, right?

Usmash is one of the easier moves in the game to punish, and read with. It catches opponents on platforms, can punish landing lag and it has a gigantic aerial hitbox. It's active frames end at 50 IIRC, thus, there are about 24 frames of an easy punish, and 40 frames of a careful punish, assuming they don't die at a 100% without any rage. On a platform, this punish window drops to a grab, no smash attack could be fast enough if you space Usmsh correctly.

 

[Spikezillian]

USmash has a very good chance of working A LOT of the time, considering it's one of the quickest USmashes in the game and the second highest duration to boot.

Except for the fact that it doesnt hit like 1/3 of the cast's hurtboxes when theyre right next to him. He's too tall!

I learned that the hard way and it hurts.

Sigh..

 

[Spikezillian]

Can someone actually test around with jab - down b mix up? How useful is it against the majority of the cast? When is it useful?

I've tried using it in tourney, and I got it to work on a Ness but I'm still not convinced.

 

[Mr. B]

Against opponents on platforms, yes. USmash is hellacool. I don't see platforms much though... 1on1FG for me, mainly.

 

[Swoops]

Actually, I already don't use punishable moves because I expect my opponent to be able to punish me for them. I work to squeeze USmash in when it is appropriate, but more often I feel that it puts me in in a vulnerable position and other moves feel so much safer.

Sorry to say, I simply don't agree that USmash has a good chance of working "a lot of the time". But that's all part of the rich tapestry of arguing with people on the internet, right?

To be fair I'm half-messing with you

I do notice that the main hiccup with the move is that after the initial hitbox(es?) comes out, a majority of the move won't fully connect against shorter characters. I have definitely eaten some punishment myself trying to abuse the duration frames against those characters. That just means I should stop going for it in that particular scenario though.

A better use for it in those match ups is when the risk-reward is in your favor. So if they are at a higher percent and you can afford that risk without dying, dash JC USmash pretty much means they cannot go airborne or drop shield or they're losing a stock. In that case the threat of USmash is really important to establish. But obviously don't go for it if you are at death percent and you're only like 75% sure it will work.

I've been on the receiving end of USmashes shortcomings and its not fun. But I think it's still a very big threat that can have a high accuracy rate (and take important stocks) if it's used correctly.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Except for the fact that it doesnt hit like 1/3 of the cast's hurtboxes when theyre right next to him. He's too tall!

I learned that the hard way and it hurts.

Sigh..

To be fair I'm half-messing with you

I do notice that the main hiccup with the move is that after the initial hitbox(es?) comes out, a majority of the move won't fully connect against shorter characters. I have definitely eaten some punishment myself trying to abuse the duration frames against those characters. That just means I should stop going for it in that particular scenario though.

A better use for it in those match ups is when the risk-reward is in your favor. So if they are at a higher percent and you can afford that risk without dying, dash JC USmash pretty much means they cannot go airborne or drop shield or they're losing a stock. In that case the threat of USmash is really important to establish. But obviously don't go for it if you are at death percent and you're only like 75% sure it will work.

I've been on the receiving end of USmashes shortcomings and its not fun. But I think it's still a very big threat that can have a high accuracy rate (and take important stocks) if it's used correctly.

The Hitbox is like R.O.B's, a grounded hitbox comes out first, and then an aerial one. Smaller characters rely on the grounded hitbox, while Mario? and above can get hit whenever.

Also, Usmash is great for covering the Jump and standard get-up options. (Ledge) It might also beat fall back.

Can someone actually test around with jab - down b mix up? How useful is it against the majority of the cast? When is it useful?

I've tried using it in tourney, and I got it to work on a Ness but I'm still not convinced.

It isn't so much of a mix-up as read. After Jab ? things can happen. A semi-true Dtilt, True Utilt, Jab-Usmash (Airdodge or DI Up or Away), Grab (Shield or airdodge read) or a Disable. The thing about Disable, is that it requires the opponent to Airdodge. That is the only way it will work. If the opponent tries to punish your Jab with a grounded move, then they will be hit and really dumb. Also, you have to time it so that you don't hit the opponent in the air, and the timing changes depending on DI, so you can't learn just one timing, you have to react. Most people won't airdodge the Jab, so grabbing or Dtilt/Utilt is usually the most optimal punish. However, if you have the read, go for it.

 

[Mr. B]

A better use for it in those match ups is when the risk-reward is in your favor. So if they are at a higher percent and you can afford that risk without dying, dash JC USmash pretty much means they cannot go airborne or drop shield or they're losing a stock. In that case the threat of USmash is really important to establish. But obviously don't go for it if you are at death percent and you're only like 75% sure it will work.

I would say that I am almost never more than 50% certain USmash is the right choice of move, but maybe I just need to use it more to gain the confidence, so that I can use it effectively even at scarydeath%...

 

[Snipnigth]

I would say that I am almost never more than 50% certain USmash is the right choice of move, but maybe I just need to use it more to gain the confidence, so that I can use it effectively even at scarydeath%...

up smash is risky it laggs a lot if you miss opponent has a lot of time to do watever to you, but its great to cover landings and airdodges, and down b plus running charged upsmash can get you a kill if opponent is around 70%, other than that upsash is verry risky

 

[Sonicninja115]

up smash is risky it laggs a lot if you miss opponent has a lot of time to so watever, but its great to cove landings and airdodges, and down b plus running charged upsmash can get you a kill if opponent is arounf 70%, other than that upsash is verry risky

Usmash has medium risk/high reward, plus, it's aerial hitbox is so big that it stuffs out aerials.

Also, it kills Mario without Rage and perfect DI at 104% on FD.

 

[Mr. B]

Played last night, and forced myself to USmash more than usual. I think that when opposing specific chars (Mario and sheik were the good ones last night) USmash is particularly useful.

Mario got messed up trying his stupid aerial whirlwind approach, and I might have read the situation wrong, but I caught my sheik trying to fish me in an USmash with a beautiful read.

I am convinced. USmash is blatantly really good if you can get the timing right, and I will build a mental list of characters I feel safe using it against.

 

[meleebrawler]

Something posted recently in Competitive Impressions:

It was discovered a while ago that grassy terrain increases traction, though this got me wondering if it causes any notable chages for Mewtwo.