Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[Browny]

https://youtu.be/pojoGIsGZac?t=552

9:12

Why did b-air do 15%. I dont understand it at all I have never seen that in my life.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

https://youtu.be/pojoGIsGZac?t=552

9:12

Why did b-air do 15%. I dont understand it at all I have never seen that in my life.

I think because of bowser jr mechanics.

 

[Browny]

I was under the impression that his clown car took like, 20% less damage, but his body took 1x?

 

[Nobie]

I was under the impression that his clown car took like, 20% less damage, but his body took 1x?

His body takes extra damage while the clown car takes less, so you can never actually land a "normal" hit on Bowser Jr.

 

[Sonicninja115]

New update, YAY. The post is super long now...

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas for the OP? Anything you want to see added? Criticism or praise?

 

[Spirst]

To add some hard numbers to the 15% bair thing, Bowser Jr's body takes 1.15x the damage amount of the move while the Clown Car takes 0.88x.

Also, it had the "fresh move" multiplier of 1.05x.

Mewtwo tail base hitbox=13%.

13 x 1.05=13.65. 13.65 x 1.15 = 15.7%. The % is rounded down so 15%.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Couple of things...

It is possible to cancel forward momentum from confusion using the ledge, leading to optimized follow-ups, but you get lag from the confusion.

SHAD is amazing, really good. If you are having trouble getting it down, then I recommend using for shield and for jump. it is also easy to use for jump and for shield, but it is a bit uncomfortable. Thoughts?

 

[meleebrawler]

Small tidbit for jab: at low percents against fastfallers it can be safe if you activate the multihit quickly.

I also find that followups from landing with nair are more consistent if you are initially facing away when moving towards them and vice-versa.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Small tidbit for jab: at low percents against fastfallers it can be safe if you activate the multihit quickly.

I also find that followups from landing with nair are more consistent if you are initially facing away when moving towards them and vice-versa.

That would make sense! I will look into that to find a pattern and post it in the Nair KB thread. Has anyone actually read that?

Edit: Edited the OP.

 

[Snipnigth]

That would make sense! I will look into that to find a pattern and post it in the Nair KB thread. Has anyone actually read that?

Edit: Edited the OP.

coul you link that thread plz

 

[Sonicninja115]

coul you link that thread plz

It's in the useful threads spoiler. It isn't the best I have done but it is completeish.

meleebrawler I looked into it and found a pattern and a guaranteed kill set-up. Nair-Uthrow. It tries if they trip and there is one of two frames to get out if they don't. Also, if you start Nair on the last frame possible that still has a hitbox, then the opponent will slide a little distance in front of you, allowing the grab follow-up. If you do it otherwise, then there is a chance that they will go to far for a follow-up. It seems that there is a certain hitbox that will send the opponent far enough away that only the tip of dtilt connects.

Also, I think this is how it works, but if you fast fall it and only hit with the first possible hit then the opponent will hop up, allowing for grab and dtilt to always combo.

Nair has set KB on the first couple of hits so it should combo into a plethora of moves.

Looking into if dtilt or jab is better out of Nair.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's in the useful threads spoiler. It isn't the best I have done but it is completeish.

meleebrawler I looked into it and found a pattern and a guaranteed kill set-up. Nair-Uthrow. It tries if they trip and there is one of two frames to get out if they don't. Also, if you start Nair on the last frame possible that still has a hitbox, then the opponent will slide a little distance in front of you, allowing the grab follow-up. If you do it otherwise, then there is a chance that they will go to far for a follow-up. It seems that there is a certain hitbox that will send the opponent far enough away that only the tip of dtilt connects.

Also, I think this is how it works, but if you fast fall it and only hit with the first possible hit then the opponent will hop up, allowing for grab and dtilt to always combo.

Nair has set KB on the first couple of hits so it should combo into a plethora of moves.

Looking into if dtilt or jab is better out of Nair.

Pretty sure dtilt and jab are almost always the best options for followups at low percents, unless you're paranoid about shields. Jab is probably the safest since you can mix things up if you hit a shield with and can trample.

Short-hop airdodging should greatly enhance the practice of nairing close to the ground by minimizing Mewtwo's exposure while closing in. You could also just skip the nair and go straight for the grab if you think they'll shield.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Pretty sure dtilt and jab are almost always the best options for followups at low percents, unless you're paranoid about shields. Jab is probably the safest since you can mix things up if you hit a shield with and can trample.

Short-hop airdodging should greatly enhance the practice of nairing close to the ground by minimizing Mewtwo's exposure while closing in. You could also just skip the nair and go straight for the grab if you think they'll shield.

The problem I am having is controlling the aerial momentum of SHAD. It always seems to go to far up, leaving me exposed for long enough that the opponent can react. Is there some better way to control it?

 

[meleebrawler]

The problem I am having is controlling the aerial momentum of SHAD. It always seems to go to far up, leaving me exposed for long enough that the opponent can react. Is there some better way to control it?

Air dodges don't change momentum at all (only in Melee). If you're going too high it probably means you're full hopping instead of short hopping, ie holding jump for too long.

Do we know what Mewtwo's jump squat is?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Air dodges don't change momentum at all (only in Melee). If you're going too high it probably means you're full hopping instead of short hopping, ie holding jump for too long.

Do we know what Mewtwo's jump squat is?

5 Frames.

I need to work on the different button set-ups.

Also, what do you think about the recent updates?

 

[meleebrawler]

5 Frames.

I need to work on the different button set-ups.

Also, what do you think about the recent updates?

That nair guide is pretty good, I'll definitely try and see what I can get from last second nairs. Could definitely bring the most out aggressive Mewtwo.

I'll just reiterate that if you're using nair to get around your opponent instead of trying to start a combo, the last hit can surprise them with it's greater range.

Also don't forget dthrow in your platform guide.

 

[Sonicninja115]

That nair guide is pretty good, I'll definitely try and see what I can get from last second nairs. Could definitely bring the most out aggressive Mewtwo.

I'll just reiterate that if you're using nair to get around your opponent instead of trying to start a combo, the last hit can surprise them with it's greater range.

Also don't forget dthrow in your platform guide.

I hadn't thought of Dthrow. Did you see the Dthrow section I put in the Grabs Spoiler? I added a spoiler on talking about tech chases and such, I will mention that in the combo section.

Can you explain that second point? I don't want to go and change something that is good, so I want to make sure I know what you are talking about.

 

[meleebrawler]

I hadn't thought of Dthrow. Did you see the Dthrow section I put in the Grabs Spoiler? I added a spoiler on talking about tech chases and such, I will mention that in the combo section.

Can you explain that second point? I don't want to go and change something that is good, so I want to make sure I know what you are talking about.

Oh it's nothing big. Just something good to know about nair: the last hit has a greater range than all of the other hits allowing it to sometimes surprise opponents who try to chase Mewtwo too quickly.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Oh it's nothing big. Just something good to know about nair: the last hit has a greater range than all of the other hits allowing it to sometimes surprise opponents who try to chase Mewtwo too quickly.

Thanks, I will add that to the OP in a bit.

 

[meleebrawler]

A couple of unorthodox things that can be done while gimping...

Landing or forcing the opponent to dodge an uncharged ball offstage can leave them vulnerable to a followup like nair or dair.

If you miss your opponent on the way down, you can either bair stage spike or use nair to drag them back onto the stage without letting them grab the edge. The latter can leave the opponent disoriented or open to one of Nair's followups if done properly.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Added a new AT called sliding pivot. It has it's uses so I though I would post it.

 

[Krysco]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I'm too lazy atm to read through all of this (it's only 4 pages but the posts in general seem to be long) plus this isn't mentioned in the djc section in the op: Mewtwo is able to djc while tossing items too. Tested at first with Mr. Saturns since they can be spawned in training and can actually appear in a tournament match. Just tested with R.O.B.s gyro too. Mewtwo can't spawn his own items but it could be useful in 1v1s vs and could be useful in doubles. Ness can perform it too but oddly not Lucas, Yoshi or Peach. Might not be too useful since jcit is a thing. I can upload a video if anyone wants visual proof. Again, my apologies for not reading to see if this was already mentioned but at the very least, the op could be updated to mention this.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I'm too lazy atm to read through all of this (it's only 4 pages but the posts in general seem to be long) plus this isn't mentioned in the djc section in the op: Mewtwo is able to djc while tossing items too. Tested at first with Mr. Saturns since they can be spawned in training and can actually appear in a tournament match. Just tested with R.O.B.s gyro too. Mewtwo can't spawn his own items but it could be useful in 1v1s vs and could be useful in doubles. Ness can perform it too but oddly not Lucas, Yoshi or Peach. Might not be too useful since jcit is a thing. I can upload a video if anyone wants visual proof. Again, my apologies for not reading to see if this was already mentioned but at the very least, the op could be updated to mention this.

I will look into this myself and then add it to the OP. Also, JCIT isn't that great with Mewtwo as he doesn't go that far, so this tech could be rather useful.

 

[meleebrawler]

Uair seems to be fairly good at setting up traps for usmash... or whatever other landing trap you may choose.

You may have this down already, but my favourite go-to combo at the start of the match against fast-fallers is dtilt>fair>uair>usmash.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Uair seems to be fairly good at setting up traps for usmash... or whatever other landing trap you may choose.

You may have this down already, but my favourite go-to combo at the start of the match against fast-fallers is dtilt>fair>uair>usmash.

I have an annoying habit of always going for that even though I usually whiff. Do you have to FF the Uair? Or does it only work on floaties and normal fallers?

What do you guys think of adapting the OP and posting it as a guide? I would add some more general information and add a couple more sections. They would also be added in here of course.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have an annoying habit of always going for that even though I usually whiff. Do you have to FF the Uair? Or does it only work on floaties and normal fallers?

What do you guys think of adapting the OP and posting it as a guide? I would add some more general information and add a couple more sections. They would also be added in here of course.

A falling uair doesn't really true combo into much against anything other than fastfallers or heavy characters at low percents. Otherwise it's once again a matter of anticipating the opponent's next action following a hit from it to get the most out it, or using it while rising, which is both tricky and risky. Still, it is good at disrupting falling opponents with it's range and low knockback.

 

[Sonicninja115]

A falling uair doesn't really true combo into much against anything other than fastfallers or heavy characters at low percents. Otherwise it's once again a matter of anticipating the opponent's next action following a hit from it to get the most out it, or using it while rising, which is both tricky and risky. Still, it is good at disrupting falling opponents with it's range and low knockback.

I made percents for multiple characters showing the Falling Uair percents. It worked on pretty much everyone besides rosaluma.

 

[Metalex]

Uair seems to be fairly good at setting up traps for usmash... or whatever other landing trap you may choose.

You may have this down already, but my favourite go-to combo at the start of the match against fast-fallers is dtilt>fair>uair>usmash.

I often do the very same combo, but after the Uair i usually go for Jab > Grab or Jab > Dtilt combo. Gotta try out Usmash as you said though since it might be safer.

 

[Yonder]

I like abusing the heck out of f throw for 13% damage. I like that 3% buff more and more in my M2 gameplay.

My question is though, some characters can DI out of shadow balls at a times. Which characters can do it and at what %? I know Yoshi can for sure.

 

[meleebrawler]

I like abusing the heck out of f throw for 13% damage. I like that 3% buff more and more in my M2 gameplay.

My question is though, some characters can DI out of shadow balls at a times. Which characters can do it and at what %? I know Yoshi can for sure.

Eh I've only seen Yoshi really escape the balls thanks to his armoured jump. Otherwise nobody really escapes, one or two balls might miss but then the opponent is still knocked far away to let you charge in peace.

 

[Yonder]

Eh I've only seen Yoshi really escape the balls thanks to his armoured jump. Otherwise nobody really escapes, one or two balls might miss but then the opponent is still knocked far away to let you charge in peace.

Thanks. Another question, what's the best way to use D throw? I find myself never using it because it doesn't combo or have the damage output of his other throws.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Thanks. Another question, what's the best way to use D throw? I find myself never using it because it doesn't combo or have the damage output of his other throws.

I have a Dthrow tech chase section in the OP. Look under grabs in move set analysis.

 

[Metalex]

What names should we use when we talk about the different hitboxes on Mewtwos Uair, Bair and Utilt?

All these moves have 3 hitboxes so my suggestion is:

Uair - Tipper (7%) Sourspot (9%) and Sweetspot (11%)
Bair - Tipper (9%) Sourspot (11%) and Sweetspot (13%)
Utilt - Tipper (4%) Strong hit (5%) and Inner hit (4%)

Or maybe there are already specific names for these variations?

It could be good if we could agree to what to call them since it is important for some combos and followups to know which hitbox is being talked about.

 

[Sonicninja115]

What names should we use when we talk about the different hitboxes on Mewtwos Uair, Bair and Utilt?

All these moves have 3 hitboxes so my suggestion is:

Uair - Tipper (7%) Sourspot (9%) and Sweetspot (11%)
Bair - Tipper (9%) Sourspot (11%) and Sweetspot (13%)
Utilt - Tipper (4%) Strong hit (5%) and Inner hit (4%)

Or maybe there are already specific names for these variations?

It could be good if we could agree to what to call them since it is important for some combos and followups to know which hitbox is being talked about.

It would also be great if we could come up with an abbreviation for them. Like, tip, sour, sweet, but not so lame as those...

Also, there are a couple of AT's that need really cool names, so start brainstorming people!

 

[meleebrawler]

It would also be great if we could come up with an abbreviation for them. Like, tip, sour, sweet, but not so lame as those...

Also, there are a couple of AT's that need really cool names, so start brainstorming people!

Sweetspot could trunk or base, sourspot could be tail, and I think tip is fine as is.

I also propose we rename bair to be Iron Tail, since it is strong, a bit unwieldy but very powerful when used properly.
How does Shadow Flight sound for Shadow Ball recoil? Or Phasing for short-hop air dodges.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sweetspot could trunk or base, sourspot could be tail, and I think tip is fine as is.

I also propose we rename bair to be Iron Tail, since it is strong, a bit unwieldy but very powerful when used properly.
How does Shadow Flight sound for Shadow Ball recoil? Or Phasing for short-hop air dodges.

I'm crying, that is freaking perfect...


I agree with Iron Tail and the trunk, tip, tail points.

Shadow flight and Phasing are really good too.

What about shadow claw for Fair (I believe it might be called that already) and Tail Whip for Dair (because there liable to make mistakes after a spike, there defense would be lowered )

 

[Metalex]

Sonicninja115 Yeah i was going to write some combo ideas for your combo thread but then i realized i wasn't sure what to write when a specific hitbox was needed for one of these moves so that was what sparked this question

I guess Tipper, Sourspot, and Sweetspot Bair/Uair works well for actual names then like i said as it is general smashbros terms that everyone understands.

For abbrevations i was thinking that just weak/tipper (tipper), medium (sourspot) and strong (sweetspot) worked well for Bair and Uair, but meleebrawler you have a good idea there with Tipper, Tail and Trunk too and it sounds less generic.

Utilt is a bit weird though as it doesn't have the same attributes as the other moves with 2 weak and 1 stronger hit, but i guess we could simply call it Tipper Utilt (Tipper) Strong Utilt (Strong hit) and Close Utilt (Inner hit)


As for thinking of new names for moves and non character specific maneuvers we should probably avoid coming up with too complicated names for stuff that other characters also can do as it will most likely create unnecessary confusion (Even if renaming SHAD Phasing and Bair Iron Tail sounds cool)

Shadow Flight is a really nice name for the Shadow Ball recoil though! Will probably start using that name from now on.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sonicninja115 Yeah i was going to write some combo ideas for your combo thread but then i realized i wasn't sure what to write when a specific hitbox was needed for one of these moves so that was what sparked this question

I guess Tipper, Sourspot, and Sweetspot Bair/Uair works well for actual names then like i said as it is general smashbros terms that everyone understands.

For abbrevations i was thinking that just weak/tipper (tipper), medium (sourspot) and strong (sweetspot) worked well for Bair and Uair, but meleebrawler you have a good idea there with Tipper, Tail and Trunk too and it sounds less generic.

Utilt is a bit weird though as it doesn't have the same attributes as the other moves with 2 weak and 1 stronger hit, but i guess we could simply call it Tipper Utilt (Tipper) Strong Utilt (Strong hit) and Close Utilt (Inner hit)


As for thinking of new names for moves and non character specific maneuvers we should probably avoid coming up with too complicated names for stuff that other characters also can do as it will most likely create unnecessary confusion (Even if renaming SHAD Phasing and Bair Iron Tail sounds cool)

Shadow Flight is a really nice name for the Shadow Ball recoil though! Will probably start using that name from now on.

The thing about SHAD is that it is really useful with Mewtwo and Palutena, as they both disappear. I think that it is not a huge stretch to call SHAD with Mewtwo Phasing, especially if I make sure that SHAD is in parentheses right Next to Phasing whenever it is in a title or subject.

 

[Metalex]

Yeah i was just thinking that people would be confused about what the term Phased Fair would be for example but i agree, it's so useful for Mewtwo that we might as well use a different name than just SHAD.

 

[Karsticles]

Uair.T = Uair Tipper
Uair.S = Uair Sweetspot
Uair.W = Uair Weak/Sourspot

Something like that.