Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[kirby3021]

Just a quick question. I didn't see b reverse confusion mentioned specifically. It's tricky but not too hard after some practice and makes for great momentum mix ups in the air. Combine that with b reverse shadow ball and Mewtwo has a lot of aerial movement options. It might not have been mentioned because it's obvious, though, or I may have missed it, in the which case I apologize for the distraction.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Just a quick question. I didn't see b reverse confusion mentioned specifically. It's tricky but not too hard after some practice and makes for great momentum mix ups in the air. Combine that with b reverse shadow ball and Mewtwo has a lot of aerial movement options. It might not have been mentioned because it's obvious, though, or I may have missed it, in the which case I apologize for the distraction.

B-reverse confusion is just side b.... right? you can side b in any direction you want and disable can't be B-reversed...

Are you talking about using it to simply move the other direction? Because I thought I mentioned that but I might need to make it clearer.

Updated grabs and wrote a good portion of playstyles. I will be adding more playstyles and also have a part on incorporating them into a match and your gameplay.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Been thinking. Would Aerial Confusion > Max SB be viable on the bigger targets? I need more testing but I think it might be an autohit on Bowser.

Probably gonna find a buddy later and tell him to try attacking and airdodging after getting caught in it.

I know it definitely doesn't work on Puff.

It is worth noting that in training it does classify Aerial Confusion > SB as a 9 hit combo. 8 hits from Confusion and the one from SB itself.

Though with Puff Confusion pops them up too high because of weight? And I imagine characters with fast cooldown to jump or act again could avoid it.

If anyone decides to try that kind of thing out and wants to share results would be great.

It could in theory make a good off stage edgeguard since we get pushed backwards.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Been thinking. Would Aerial Confusion > Max SB be viable on the bigger targets? I need more testing but I think it might be an autohit on Bowser.

Probably gonna find a buddy later and tell him to try attacking and airdodging after getting caught in it.

I know it definitely doesn't work on Puff.

It is worth noting that in training it does classify Aerial Confusion > SB as a 9 hit combo. 8 hits from Confusion and the one from SB itself.

Though with Puff Confusion pops them up too high because of weight? And I imagine characters with fast cooldown to jump or act again could avoid it.

If anyone decides to try that kind of thing out and wants to share results would be great.

It could in theory make a good off stage edgeguard since we get pushed backwards.

Cofusion never true combos, the counter lies. However I think that rising fair does combo out of confusion as it covers both the waiting and jumping options. So it is likely that SB could true out of it. If they jump away you can get the DJ uair-Fair combo.

 

[kirby3021]

B-reverse confusion is just side b.... right? you can side b in any direction you want and disable can't be B-reversed...

Are you talking about using it to simply move the other direction? Because I thought I mentioned that but I might need to make it clearer.

Good point for clarification. I'm referring to inputting confusion and then immediately inputting the opposite direction while in the air, which will lead to a significantly larger momentum change than just inputting confusion opposite to the direction you're falling.

For example, you're falling to the left. If you input confusion with by moving the joystick to the right and pressing B, your momentum will be halted (controller input: -> B). If you input confusion by moving the joystick to the left and pressing B, then immediately move the joystick to the right, your momentum will be completely reversed, not just halted (controller input: <- B, then immediately ->).

The second is what I refer to as B-reverse confusion. I can input a video if you'd like when I'm off work.

*edit* corrected directions in the explanation, I was getting left and right mixed up. Everything is correct now!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Good point for clarification. I'm referring to inputting confusion and then immediately inputting the opposite direction while in the air, which will lead to a significantly larger momentum change than just inputting confusion opposite to the direction you're falling.

For example, you're falling to the left. If you input confusion with by moving the joystick to the left and pressing B, your momentum will be halted (controller input: -> B). If you input confusion by moving the joystick to the right and pressing B, then immediately move the joystick to the left, your momentum will be completely reversed, not just halted (controller input: <- B, then immediately ->).

The second is what I refer to as B-reverse confusion. I can input a video if you'd like when I'm off work.

I never knew it could do that, I will look into it myself and add it to the AT section if it is as useful as I think it is. Thanks!

I could probably post this in the guide section when we are done... Hmmmm, decisions.

 

[meleebrawler]

Time to look at Teleport and Disable, another set of moves with unflattering descriptions.

Teleport may be laggy enough that it's not a free escape move, but the distance it covers is easily enough to escape slower characters, and although tricky can be done against faster ones with a good read of their movements. And just because the invincibility frames don't exactly line up with the animation of Mewtwo disappearing, doesn't change the fact that his teleport gives them faster than any other warping move (frame 9), and out of all characters with such a move (Palutena and Zelda), Mewtwo easily has the best airspeed maximizing it's mixup potential.

Disable is hardly laggy, it starts up faster than both fsmash and dsmash (to say nothing about how it can be initiated in the air) with only moderate endlag. It also outranges, even if only very slightly, all of his ground moves. What makes it unsafe is being a 1% move gives very little shield safety and unfavourable trades, and of course facing away making it useless.
Basically it's fast enough to very severely punish relatively large mistakes from your opponent on reaction and can surprise people with it's range (with it's set knockback in the air it can also be a cheeky gimp move). You just have to know the right time to use it, but it's not always a huge gamble.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Time to look at Teleport and Disable, another set of moves with unflattering descriptions.

Teleport may be laggy enough that it's not a free escape move, but the distance it covers is easily enough to escape slower characters, and although tricky can be done against faster ones with a good read of their movements. And just because the invincibility frames don't exactly line up with the animation of Mewtwo disappearing, doesn't change the fact that his teleport gives them faster than any other warping move (frame 9), and out of all characters with such a move (Palutena and Zelda), Mewtwo easily has the best airspeed maximizing it's mixup potential.

Disable is hardly laggy, it starts up faster than both fsmash and dsmash (to say nothing about how it can be initiated in the air) with only moderate endlag. It also outranges, even if only very slightly, all of his ground moves. What makes it unsafe is being a 1% move gives very little shield safety and unfavourable trades, and of course facing away making it useless.
Basically it's fast enough to very severely punish relatively large mistakes from your opponent on reaction and can surprise people with it's range (with it's set knockback in the air it can also be a cheeky gimp move). You just have to know the right time to use it, but it's not always a huge gamble.

I should of phrased those better, and I hardly wrote my best. I will adjust those a bit, but teleport is only a reliable escape option when combined with LC or when the opponent is experiencing major lag. Plus, it is almost always punishable by a dash attack or grab. It isn't the safest escape option, but it is one, a the very least it is an okay mix-up.

I tried to sound optimal with disable, but it isn't the greatest of moves. It is better then his smash attacks (fsmash 3 frames slower, Dsmash 5 frames slower and Usmash is actually 7 frames faster) and the big difference is in ending lag as disable has 48 FAF, Dsmash has 44 FAF Usmash has 74 and Fsmash has 53. So Disable is a good option, but it is about as good as his smashes. as it is slower start-up then Usmash but more endlag and faster startup then Dsmash but more endlag. So Disable is good, but only as an addition to smash attacks as it has other weaknesses as well, like low shield KB and easily beatable by almost any tilt. I will definitely change Disable and make it sound better, I will also mention it's range, but it is about as good as his smash attacks and is probably best as a mix-up.


Edit: As the Metagame for Mewtwo is still so new, I will add Disable and Teleport to the discussion topics and note the aspects in contest. The metagame is so new that I could very well be wrong, so I want to cover all the bases and flesh it out a bit more.

 

[kirby3021]

I never knew it could do that, I will look into it myself and add it to the AT section if it is as useful as I think it is. Thanks!

I could probably post this in the guide section when we are done... Hmmmm, decisions.

Here's a quick video demonstrating the difference between reverse confusion and b reverse confusion. It's pretty low quality, sorry about that.

I never knew it could do that, I will look into it myself and add it to the AT section if it is as useful as I think it is. Thanks!

I could probably post this in the guide section when we are done... Hmmmm, decisions.

I made a short video demonstrating the movement difference when b reverse confusion is used. Sorry for the poor quality:

https://youtu.be/VOKHTwyMdDE

It adds a bit more variety to Mewtwo's air movement.

 

[MagiusNecros]

What's the input for the last one? That was pretty crazy. Also your footage is actually pretty good.

 

[---]

Will go ahead and keep this stickied rather than the Moveset thread. Just don't have the time to write up another guide at the moment and this is more or less what I was hoping would come about.

Will be willing to help spruce up the OP at some point, but for now I'm liking the non-give-us-a-buff-already discussion going on.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Thanks! We are discussing more then move set though, I'm assuming that you are just putting this one over the other one though.

Here's a quick video demonstrating the difference between reverse confusion and b reverse confusion. It's pretty low quality, sorry about that.


I made a short video demonstrating the movement difference when b reverse confusion is used. Sorry for the poor quality:

https://youtu.be/VOKHTwyMdDE

It adds a bit more variety to Mewtwo's air movement.

Will go ahead and keep this stickied rather than the Moveset thread. Just don't have the time to write up another guide at the moment and this is more or less what I was hoping would come about.

Will be willing to help spruce up the OP at some point, but for now I'm liking the non-give-us-a-buff-already discussion going on.

also, thanks for the video! I can't believe you can do that, it is great!

First time using multi quote so I think I failed...

 

[kirby3021]

What's the input for the last one? That was pretty crazy. Also your footage is actually pretty good.

Thanks! Input for either direction is:
-> b, immediate <-
Shifts momentum to the left
<- b, immediate ->
Shifts momentum to the right (this was the last reverse in the video)

If you find yourself doing a shadow ball reverse, you weren't pressing a direction when you pressed B. If your momentum doesn't change direction, you didn't flick to the opposite direction fast enough.

 

[godogod]

Can you guys have a key for technical terms(ex:SHAD)?

I hate it when there are game FAQS that throw out technical words to represent tech moves without explaing what the tech word is. The smash community especially is known to do this.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Can you guys have a key for technical terms(ex:SHAD)?

I hate it when there are game FAQS that throw out technical words to represent tech moves without explaing what the tech word is. The smash community especially is known to do this.

I always explain it somewhere in the OP, for example, SHAD is a AT and it is explained there. However, I think a term compilation is a good idea so I will post and explain all the ones I know and if anyone knows some that I don't, then please speak up so I can add it.

 

[godogod]

I always explain it somewhere in the OP, for example, SHAD is a AT and it is explained there. However, I think a term compilation is a good idea so I will post and explain all the ones I know and if anyone knows some that I don't, then please speak up so I can add it.

What's an AT?...

thanks

 

[Sonicninja115]

What's an AT?...

thanks

I posted the term collection.

Hey kirby3021 Is it okay if I use your video?

 

[kirby3021]

I posted the term collection.

Hey kirby3021 Is it okay if I use your video?

Sure! All I ask is that you don't credit me for discovering/creating the technique - I saw Trela use it a few times while watching replays and I think there was a short discussion about it about four months back in one of the threads.

 

[meleebrawler]

I should of phrased those better, and I hardly wrote my best. I will adjust those a bit, but teleport is only a reliable escape option when combined with LC or when the opponent is experiencing major lag. Plus, it is almost always punishable by a dash attack or grab. It isn't the safest escape option, but it is one, a the very least it is an okay mix-up.

I tried to sound optimal with disable, but it isn't the greatest of moves. It is better then his smash attacks (fsmash 3 frames slower, Dsmash 5 frames slower and Usmash is actually 7 frames faster) and the big difference is in ending lag as disable has 48 FAF, Dsmash has 44 FAF Usmash has 74 and Fsmash has 53. So Disable is a good option, but it is about as good as his smashes. as it is slower start-up then Usmash but more endlag and faster startup then Dsmash but more endlag. So Disable is good, but only as an addition to smash attacks as it has other weaknesses as well, like low shield KB and easily beatable by almost any tilt. I will definitely change Disable and make it sound better, I will also mention it's range, but it is about as good as his smash attacks and is probably best as a mix-up.


Edit: As the Metagame for Mewtwo is still so new, I will add Disable and Teleport to the discussion topics and note the aspects in contest. The metagame is so new that I could very well be wrong, so I want to cover all the bases and flesh it out a bit more.

In no way did I mean to suggest that disable was better than his smashes. The fact that it dishes out little stun at low percents alone makes it less generally useful. But it's faster startup and ability to be started in the air allows it to punish things reactively that the other two would have to get a read on. It has it's uses. Also even though on paper usmash has less endlag than disable, in practice the long duration of usmash usually makes it more unsafe on whiff than disable.

To successfully use teleport as an escape move you have to pay close attention to the opponent's actions as you're landing. In the Mario example you suggested the best time to use it would be if he's chasing Mewtwo very closely, since here he cannot chase Mewtwo down easily if he teleports the other way. In general it's a good rule of thumb; if the opponent is hanging back as Mewtwo's landing it's a sign that they're anticipating him attempting a teleport or other movement option in their direction.

Now of course faster characters can cover his options more easily, but even the fastest can't punish a teleport if they commit to an attack beforehand. Good reflexes and timing can do wonders (just don't get baited).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Just a couple of things to note about dthrow. It has the best potential off all of his throws. It may not be a true combo throw but it's a good set up. Which leavrs yout opponent eith limited options afterwards attack double jump away or do nothibg/ air dodge into the ground. The useful of this move can be limited on the character but it can still open you up for a disable which could potentially lead to a stock. What you want to do eith dthrow is put your opponent in a bad situation and then cover their options.

Disable maybe faster than fsmash but it's only faster by a frame. Which means it's not that great on start up.

 

[meleebrawler]

Just a couple of things to note about dthrow. It has the best potential off all of his throws. It may not be a true combo throw but it's a good set up. Which leavrs yout opponent eith limited options afterwards attack double jump away or do nothibg/ air dodge into the ground. The useful of this move can be limited on the character but it can still open you up for a disable which could potentially lead to a stock. What you want to do eith dthrow is put your opponent in a bad situation and then cover their options.

Disable maybe faster than fsmash but it's only faster by a frame. Which means it's not that great on start up.

It's not that much faster, true, but again the ability to start it in the air gives it a degree of flexibility over his smashes in terms of punishing. Mindgaming with dthrow to land it wouldn't work nearly as well if it couldn't do that. Plus the already mentioned use of striking opponents on platforms safely.

Speaking of hitting the opponent's feet on platforms, wasn't it mentioned in the moveset thread that Shadow Ball could move through platforms to potentially shield stab players on them?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's not that much faster, true, but again the ability to start it in the air gives it a degree of flexibility over his smashes in terms of punishing. Mindgaming with dthrow to land it wouldn't work nearly as well if it couldn't do that. Plus the already mentioned use of striking opponents on platforms safely.

Speaking of hitting the opponent's feet on platforms, wasn't it mentioned in the moveset thread that Shadow Ball could move through platforms to potentially shield stab players on them?

I think you can do that with shadowball. I think it's in Browny's thread. Yeah dthrow tends to be more preferred throw I may use it too much though.

As for disable it has it's pros and cons. I would rely on it for punishing things though. As the opponent has to be facing you and sometimes that can be hard to catch. Now if we're talking whiff punishes that's totally effective. As with everything mewtwo related you gotta be careful you don't eat a smash attack. I like disable I was mewtwo could disable people with them looking at him.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think you can do that with shadowball. I think it's in Browny's thread. Yeah dthrow tends to be more preferred throw I may use it too much though.

As for disable it has it's pros and cons. I would rely on it for punishing things though. As the opponent has to be facing you and sometimes that can be hard to catch. Now if we're talking whiff punishes that's totally effective. As with everything mewtwo related you gotta be careful you don't eat a smash attack. I like disable I was mewtwo could disable people with them looking at him.

Would Dthrow-JC Disable catch the opponent 0-30% if they don't jump away?

 

[meleebrawler]

Would Dthrow-JC Disable catch the opponent 0-30% if they don't jump away?

You probably shouldn't be trying to land disable at those percents. A dtilt would usually be preferred.

Disable can also be used when landing if you have sufficient space and see someone trying to chase it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You probably shouldn't be trying to land disable at those percents. A dtilt would usually be preferred.

Disable can also be used when landing if you have sufficient space and see someone trying to chase it.

Hmm, most people tend to DI away making Dtilt hard to get, the best options out of a Dthrow that I see so far are Usmash at high percents, preferably a platform too. DA at basically any percent and SB if you read the airdodge. You can also try to read their tech for another grab or DA.

I think Disable can be best described as a good mix-up at 60% and above. How long does it stun them at 60%? It has it's uses but nothing too extraordinary, and shouldn't be spammed. Use it like a smash attack, don't throw it out on a whim.

 

[Karsticles]

Walk forward after dthrow and you can land dtilt fine even if they DI away.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think Disable can be best described as a good mix-up at 60% and above. How long does it stun them at 60%? It has it's uses but nothing too extraordinary, and shouldn't be spammed. Use it like a smash attack, don't throw it out on a whim.

At 60, certainly long enough to get a charged smash that will kill a rather light character assuming you don't trade or something.
The percent range that works well for anyone seems to be around 80%, where you can even kill someone like Bowser with a charged smash.

Disable is situational, but certainly not a very laggy move like Falcon/Warlock Punch or Jet Hammer.

And about dsmash I'd like to add that the high launch angle is actually pretty good since it works well no matter your positioning and isn't that easy to DI.

 

[Sonicninja115]

At 60, certainly long enough to get a charged smash that will kill a rather light character assuming you don't trade or something.
The percent range that works well for anyone seems to be around 80%, where you can even kill someone like Bowser with a charged smash.

Disable is situational, but certainly not a very laggy move like Falcon/Warlock Punch or Jet Hammer.

And about dsmash I'd like to add that the high launch angle is actually pretty good since it works well no matter your positioning and isn't that easy to DI.

I agree, the attack is so fast that properly DI'ing is almost impossible. I know the launch angle hurts Mewtwo if it sends them directly into the corner, but does it do better then Fsmash at the ledge? or Usmash at the ledge but facing the other way?

 

[meleebrawler]

I agree, the attack is so fast that properly DI'ing is almost impossible. I know the launch angle hurts Mewtwo if it sends them directly into the corner, but does it do better then Fsmash at the ledge? or Usmash at the ledge but facing the other way?

The launch angle for dsmash is too close to vertical to ever reach the side blastzones, or even the corners on any stage other than walk-offs. It will almost always kill off the top. Fsmash and bthrow are Mewtwo's best options for killing off the sides, along with fair and bair edgeguards. Usmash is pretty much straight up so positioning is generally unimportant.

We might need to experiment with air Confusion followups.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The launch angle for dsmash is too close to vertical to ever reach the side blastzones, or even the corners on any stage other than walk-offs. It will almost always kill off the top. Fsmash and bthrow are Mewtwo's best options for killing off the sides, along with fair and bair edgeguards. Usmash is pretty much straight up so positioning is generally unimportant.

We might need to experiment with air Confusion followups.

Agreed, on both points.

I was looking into aerial confusion, but it is annoying without a partner helping with escape options. What I have learned is that Nairo's fancy little combo only works if the opponent jumps away, which is almost always. I also believe that cofusion actually trues into Fair DJ might help as well.

 

[TheAxeWarrior]

I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this question here, but I feel it has to do with Mewtwo so here we go..

I main Mewtwo in Sm4sh, can anyone suggest a good secondary to pick up that would cover his weaknesses?

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this question here, but I feel it has to do with Mewtwo so here we go..

I main Mewtwo in Sm4sh, can anyone suggest a good secondary to pick up that would cover his weaknesses?

I'm assuming you don't want to main shiek so... Mewtwo being a largely defensive character that is really good against campers I would say a fast character. I personally chose Diddy kong because I love the character and he covers a good portion of the bad MU's. But characters like CF might do well or Fox, ZSS and Mario. Most of the high/top will cover a good portion of Mewtwo's bad MU's. Ness might be a good pick as Mewtwo doesn't do too bad against RosaLuma.

I don't know how much this helps, but I hope it does.

I think I might add a secondary giving a pros and cons for a secondary that covers Mewtwo's weaknesses and bad MU's.

 

[TheAxeWarrior]

I'm assuming you don't want to main shiek so... Mewtwo being a largely defensive character that is really good against campers I would say a fast character. I personally chose Diddy kong because I love the character and he covers a good portion of the bad MU's. But characters like CF might do well or Fox, ZSS and Mario. Most of the high/top will cover a good portion of Mewtwo's bad MU's. Ness might be a good pick as Mewtwo doesn't do too bad against RosaLuma.

I don't know how much this helps, but I hope it does.

I think I might add a secondary giving a pros and cons for a secondary that covers Mewtwo's weaknesses and bad MU's.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out here! You were right in assuming that I don't want to main Sheik, and your advise was very helpful! I might go with Ness, if only because his jump physics are so similar to Mewtwo's.. But I will deeply consider all the characters you recommended.

 

[meleebrawler]

Just like to add a few points to Mewtwo's recovery:

-Confusion can be good for re-orienting Mewtwo so that his back faces the ledge. Bair is much more useful for attacking people on the ledge, and can be a good way to ensure that Shadow Ball recovery succeeds in case you're not confident with your b-reversing.

-There are many things you can do with double jump enhanced by it's unique momentum. You can: dodge, which is usually the safest move, attack (use nair to get past shields, or bair to beat out attacks and space) or cancel the momentum with any of his specials (confusion can also beat shielders at the edge; even better if you can land it without spending your jump and turn the tables with a combo). But one thing you must be wary of is that this move is the bulk of Mewtwo's vertical recovery. If you are footstooled, sniped or otherwise have no access to this move below the stage your chances of survival are slim. So be careful.

-If the opponent jumps out early to attack Mewtwo offstage, just Teleport past them and you will very quickly gain control of the stage back before they even know what hit them.

-Get used to using double jumps from ledgedrops in conjunction with options I mentioned; since Mewtwo's other ledge options can often leave something to be desired.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Just like to add a few points to Mewtwo's recovery:

-Confusion can be good for re-orienting Mewtwo so that his back faces the ledge. Bair is much more useful for attacking people on the ledge, and can be a good way to ensure that Shadow Ball recovery succeeds in case you're not confident with your b-reversing.

-There are many things you can do with double jump enhanced by it's unique momentum. You can: dodge, which is usually the safest move, attack (use nair to get past shields, or bair to beat out attacks and space) or cancel the momentum with any of his specials (confusion can also beat shielders at the edge; even better if you can land it without spending your jump and turn the tables with a combo). But one thing you must be wary of is that this move is the bulk of Mewtwo's vertical recovery. If you are footstooled, sniped or otherwise have no access to this move below the stage your chances of survival are slim. So be careful.

-If the opponent jumps out early to attack Mewtwo offstage, just Teleport past them and you will very quickly gain control of the stage back before they even know what hit them.

-Get used to using double jumps from ledgedrops in conjunction with options I mentioned; since Mewtwo's other ledge options can often leave something to be desired.

Thanks! When I write sections I often miss obvious facts just cause they are second nature, I don't have to think about them I just do them. I will add these points to the section as soon as I can, it might take a day or two though...

Also, something weird. It seems that you can extended dash dance without the PPesque input. I simply press right, left, right, left and Mewtwo will foxtrot back and forth without the turn around lag. It seems that this tech might be slightly different but it is extremely effective, it is basically a dash dance without the difficulty and nearly as effective, if not more. I would post a video but I don't have the ability too. If someone could test this out and post a video that would be amazing!

It is basically just foxtrot one way then Foxtrot the other, sorry I can't give more details

 

[meleebrawler]

Can Mewtwo get a blockstring followup from dsmash with the increased shieldstun in this patch?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Can Mewtwo get a blockstring followup from dsmash with the increased shieldstun in this patch?

Let me do the math...

Mewtwo will apply 10.57 frames of shield stun from an uncharged dsmash, with his FAF being 44 and his active hitbox being 21-22 that would mean the opponent would need 22 frames of lag, which would almost work. However, it is in contention that shield stun might overlap with drop lag. So that would completely nullify these numbers. Best case, unpunishable. Worst, ten frames to punish Mewtwo.

 

[meleebrawler]

Let me do the math...

Mewtwo will apply 10.57 frames of shield stun from an uncharged dsmash, with his FAF being 44 and his active hitbox being 21-22 that would mean the opponent would need 22 frames of lag, which would almost work. However, it is in contention that shield stun might overlap with drop lag. So that would completely nullify these numbers. Best case, unpunishable. Worst, ten frames to punish Mewtwo.

Hm... well, the way I use dsmash usually leads to it getting charged a bit, I rarely use it uncharged. How about a point blank charged shadow ball then?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hm... well, the way I use dsmash usually leads to it getting charged a bit, I rarely use it uncharged. How about a point blank charged shadow ball then?

!00% safe. If you look at the thingy I put in the OP it has the Shieldstun, 13 frames i think and I don't know the endlag of SB but someone said it couldn't be punished.


Edit: It has 32 frames from charge and hits on 23. in other words it is positive at point blank VERY positive.

Without it being in charge the FAF is 49 with the active frame being 23. so add 13 and 8 and it is a bit negative but still safe. It is probably very positive if you chase the SB. You might even be able to get a guaranteed Usmash.

 

[Snipnigth]

regarding disable, its a good move, comes out fast and not much lagg to it, if you hit them in the air they will be thrown away so its not as unsafe as it seems, plus if you hit someone with it and their are in about 70%, you can run charged upsmash and it will probably kill (not fully charged tho).