The problem with the MK match up thread.

[Zozefup]

The first page of the match up thread is awesome, it gives quotes from reputable players about every match up. The problem is, if you want to hear what anyone besides Doom thinks about the olimar match up, then you have to read through 160 pages of post. Even after reading all 160 pages, you still may not find much information about the match up you're looking for. My take on the olimar match up is different than dooms, and I would really like to hear other peoples responses to my ideas.

If I would have left my response in the match up thread, it would quickly get swallowed in pages and pages of information, and I wouldn't get to hear anything valuable. Hilt would have never heard that I posted anything, and he would have never got to warn me about the whistle.

I understand that you don't want the first 20 threads in MK boards to be MK VS (whoever). It would be nice if we could find a more organized way to continue intelligent match up discussion. The current match up thread is new players asking for help on match ups, not already experienced players sharing their ideas.

It would have been nice if you at least left my thread open long enough so that I could get 2-3 pages of responses.

 

[*JuriHan*]

The first page of the match up thread is awesome, it gives quotes from reputable players about every match up. The problem is, if you want to hear what anyone besides Doom thinks about the olimar match up, then you have to read through 160 pages of post. Even after reading all 160 pages, you still may not find much information about the match up you're looking for. My take on the olimar match up is different than dooms, and I would really like to hear other peoples responses to my ideas.

If I would have left my response in the match up thread, it would quickly get swallowed in pages and pages of information, and I wouldn't get to hear anything valuable. Hilt would have never heard that I posted anything, and he would have never got to warn me about the whistle.

I understand that you don't want the first 20 threads in MK boards to be MK VS (whoever). It would be nice if we could find a more organized way to continue intelligent match up discussion. The current match up thread is new players asking for help on match ups, not already experienced players sharing their ideas.

It would have been nice if you at least left my thread open long enough so that I could get 2-3 pages of responses.

NOOOOOOOOOOO your wrong. The REAL problem with the MK matchup thread is the implications low tiers get so brutally maimed by Meta knight, THEY DON'T EVEN EXIST IN THE THREAD!

mad disrespect, MKers...

shame on you!

you better ****ing believe Jigglypuff is butthurt.

 

[Zozefup]

THEY DON'T EVEN EXIST IN THE THREAD!

I spent 2 hours looking through that thread for ANY ideas on how to fight Lucario and found nothing. It's all scattered, unorganized, junk.

I play against Thinkaman's Jiggs all the time. I'd love to write some ideas against Jiggs, but it will just get swallowed in that thread

 

[MiniTroika]

I honestly think that the Match-Up Thread should be scrapped and rebooted. Each matchup discussion should have it's own thread and the Main thread has the link for each character. it makes it a lot easier to organize and find specific information.

I also think that the video thread needs to get restarted as all those videos are really old and most of those players on the list don't even play anymore. A lot of those videos don't even reflect the current meta game. It should also be organized by character rather than player >

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Truth.

Like someone before said, it ticks me off that there is hardly any discussion about low-tiers, especially when there are some pretty dangerous MK matchups there. Assuming you can find a great Jiggs, I'd personally put the Jiggly/MK matchup around 55:45.

The whole thread is pretty disorganized, and the often conflicting viewpoints make it a difficult read.

 

[DanGR]

No one bothers discussing the bad characters because... they're bad and their flaws are so easily exploited that most of the time it's a matter of getting just a few matches of experience under your belt before you know what you should be doing to shut them down.

Discussion is better put towards the characters that matter- AKA MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth, D3, Wario, etc.

That said, a foundation of a matchup thread linking to several separate threads within it is what a lot the character boards have been doing. It will allow people to discuss whatever character they want to discuss, with the main character to be discussed that week or w/e specified in the title of the original matchup thread.

 

[Kaffei]

No one bothers discussing the bad characters because... they're bad and their flaws are so easily exploited that most of the time it's a matter of getting just a few matches of experience under your belt before you know what you should be doing to shut them down.

Discussion is better put towards the characters that matter- AKA MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth, D3, Wario, etc.

That said, a foundation of a matchup thread linking to several separate threads within it is what a lot the character boards have been doing. It will allow people to discuss whatever character they want to discuss, with the main character to be discussed that week or w/e specified in the title of the original matchup thread.

But wouldn't it still help people who are just learning

 

[DanGR]

But wouldn't it still help people who are just learning

(This isn't aimed at you, btw.)

If you're still in the very beginning phases of using MK and haven't already grasped a very good understanding of this character, you're better off practicing him for yourself than looking in matchup threads for a ton of answers. Asking questions in the QnA thread should suffice until you're better.

In any case, if you're consistently having a ton of trouble fighting a bad character as MK it's more than likely your opponent is simply much better than you or you need to practice MK more to learn what all he has to offer.

 

[Kaffei]

(This isn't aimed at you, btw.)

If you're still in the very beginning phases of using MK and haven't already grasped a very good understanding of this character, you're better off practicing him for yourself than looking in matchup threads for a ton of answers. Asking questions in the QnA thread should suffice until you're better.

In any case, if you're consistently having a ton of trouble fighting a bad character as MK it's more than likely your opponent is simply much better than you or you need to practice MK more to learn what all he has to offer.

That's a very rational way to put it. Makes sense.

 

[Bloodcross]

 

[Kaffei]

uh............ O.O

 

[*JuriHan*]

I approve of this post.

 

[Gates]

The problem with the MK matchup thread is it was created by a MW-W smasher. MW-W guys are too busy working in their corn fields to update anything.

 

[Toronto Joe]

there definitely needs to be separate threads for each matchup...what you said in op is basically the reason why i only use videos of other players to learn matchups...going through all those pages is ....

 

[Kaffei]

So are people actually going to redo stuff or what. I can go through threads and find the info for specific match ups if yall like. I just need verification on if the post is legit

 

[Turbo Ether]

I honestly think that the Match-Up Thread should be scrapped and rebooted. Each matchup discussion should have it's own thread and the Main thread has the link for each character. it makes it a lot easier to organize and find specific information.

This is how every character board should work, imo.

 

[Omni]

If there's a majority decision and the issues have been talked with the owner of the thread things can be worked out.

Things need to be systematic. I believe I just changed ownership of the match-up thread not too long ago.

Basically, what are the main complaints so I can fix them for you guys.

 

[Kaffei]

If there's a majority decision and the issues have been talked with the owner of the thread things can be worked out.

Things need to be systematic. I believe I just changed ownership of the match-up thread not too long ago.

Basically, what are the main complaints so I can fix them for you guys.

Some information regarding specific match ups is outdated; people have stated that there is no need to re discuss those match ups because they are easy and straight forward, but I think that's a dumb excuse. I wouldn't mind rediscussing every MU, starting from MK's hardest to easiest, but that is not a choice I can make. There isn't even a Marth MU summary yet.

In addition, I personally think the MU discussions would be a lot neater if there were separate threads for each MU.

 

[Toronto Joe]

separate threads for mks 5hardest matchups and add more info on stuff in the matchup thread from old posts that never got dug up or new posts that op got lazy to add...i think thats a perfect start =]

example i got from fox boards

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Marth​

________________________________

Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

________________________________

MARTH, PRINCE(SS) OF ALTEA

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Marth Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Marth Bans
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Marth Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

Videos

Verdict
XX:XX ​

 

[Kaffei]

@ Joe: I like that idea.

 

[MiniTroika]

PleaSe take torontoe joes idea as well as mine! The matchup thread would benefit so much

 

[MiniTroika]

Can we please just restart the matchup thread already? As well as the video thread since it has too many old videos?

 

[Kaffei]

Can we please just restart the matchup thread already? As well as the video thread since it has too many old videos?

I agree with this

 

[MiniTroika]

Hell I don't mind if I have to do the work to organize the stuff.

 

[Kaffei]

Hell I don't mind if I have to do the work to organize the stuff.

I can help. Even the Snake forums are rediscussing.

 

[MiniTroika]

I can help. Even the Snake forums are rediscussing.

Let's get to it

 

[Staco]

Yes, lets pls do this.
There are so much outdated informations in them.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

we can remove the older videos but i really hate video threads that show vs character instead of player. I really like the layout of our video thread right now and most of the time i want to see a specific player and its too hard to do that when they are spread so far apart.
i do agree the vids are too old.

 

[MiniTroika]

we can remove the older videos but i really hate video threads that show vs character instead of player. I really like the layout of our video thread right now and most of the time i want to see a specific player and its too hard to do that when they are spread so far apart.
i do agree the vids are too old.

You can do both actually. You can have something like this:

Mew2King:
vs diddy
ADHD

vs snake
ally

etc...

I will gladly do this. I just need permission from the moderator

 

[Overswarm]

MK vs. Jiggs: up+b out of shield if they do an attack, fair out of shield if they don't. End matchup.

 

[MiniTroika]

MK vs. Jiggs: up+b out of shield if they do an attack, fair out of shield if they don't. End matchup.

we've never argued differently for this matchup

 

[Overswarm]

Just lettin' you know in case you forgot.

I searched long and hard for an MK counter and had some tremendous hope for Jiggs being a crazy side counter. I found you could beat him stationary.

 

[Zozefup]

MK vs. Jiggs: up+b out of shield if they do an attack, fair out of shield if they don't. End matchup.

Ever play Thinkaman?

The same logic applies to Kirby, but it's not that easy. Jiggs can bait of up+b oos by dodging into the ground instead of attacking.

 

[Overswarm]

Yes. I beat him. I stood still in my shield and up+bed and faired OoS. You don't up+b until he hits your shield. Otherwise, you fair or roll away. GG matchup.


I learned this while playing Judge's Jigglypuff in some goofball friendly. Found out it worked. Was disappionted.

 

[Kaffei]

Let's get to it

How should we start

 

[MiniTroika]

How should we start

We can't start an official matchup and video thread without Affinity's permission. I'm hoping that he'll read this and consider it. If not, we'll have to take matters onto our own hands to make better threads.

This board should be more active to reflect the current meta game. Come on guys, we can't let the others catch up! But everytime I enter, the latest posts all go to the social thread which is a huge waste of time.

 

[etecoon]

This board should be more active to reflect the current meta game.

I kind of like it as a wasteland of trolling, sexual harassment, and regional trash talking

 

[Kaffei]

We can't start an official matchup and video thread without Affinity's permission. I'm hoping that he'll read this and consider it. If not, we'll have to take matters onto our own hands to make better threads.

This board should be more active to reflect the current meta game. Come on guys, we can't let the others catch up! But everytime I enter, the latest posts all go to the social thread which is a huge waste of time.

Oh yeah. Righto

 

[MiniTroika]

I kind of like it as a wasteland of trolling, sexual harassment, and regional trash talking

The only thing the social thread has going for it is Gates. He gets around on multiple boards anyways

I never said that the social thread should be removed or that it should discuss smash related stuff. That's why it's a social thread. But there is too much activity in that thread instead of character discussion to keep players updated.

 

[mduo]

We can't start an official matchup and video thread without Affinity's permission. I'm hoping that he'll read this and consider it. If not, we'll have to take matters onto our own hands to make better threads.

have you messaged him? i could always shoot him a message and tell him to open up a thread for an official matchup/video thread. He would prolly listen as long as he wasnt too busy whatever day that happens to be.

p.s. arent there already official video threads?
and for the MU thread were you meaning, character specific ones? since we already have that one MU thread which is a bit of a jumbled mess