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The portrayal of LGBTQ characters

mountain_tiger

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Link to original post: [drupal=5195]The portrayal of LGBTQ characters[/drupal]



In recent times the debate over same-sex marriage has flared up once again. Now, in my time I’ve done a lot of thinking about LGBTQ matters, including, among other things, how LGBTQ people are often portrayed in the media and, needless to say, there are many gripes that I have in that regard, especially when it comes to the portrayal of transgendered people.

The main ones are:

1) The over-simplification of the ‘transition’ process. As a general rule, unless the film/book/program in question specifically revolves around a transgendered character realising their true gender, and the steps that follow in order to be accepted by society, there is a tendency for works featuring a transgendered character to grossly over-simplify ‘transition’, almost always by focusing primarily or exclusively on genital reassignment surgery (what most would call a ‘sex change operation’). Hence why questions like ‘is she pre-op or post-op?’ are likely to surface.

In other words, there is no real ‘transition’ shown, so to speak. Never mind how long it takes real-life transgendered people to accept themselves, and eventually come out to others about their identity. Never mind that they then have to go through months of therapy before being allowed to begin hormone treatment, with the hormones themselves taking several years to come into full effect (in simplistic terms, imagine going through a second puberty). Never mind that they then have to prove they can live and function in society as their true gender for at least a year (or longer, depending on which country we’re talking about) before then being put on a waiting list for the operation itself. Nope, in magical TV-land, Paul can walk into the surgery, and a few hours later he comes out as Pauline, complete with boobs, a more ‘lady-like’ figure and a feminine voice (because who needs recovery time after a major operation anyway?)

In fact, not all transgendered people in the real world even want to undergo a ‘sex change’ operation - many choose not to, happy to express their gender without the need to change their genitals in the process. And even if they do want to, many of them cannot due to any number of reasons (e.g. not having enough money). Ultimately, putting such a huge focus on what is ultimately just ONE part of the transition devalues the transition process as a whole, and can lead to those who haven’t had the operation (or do not intend to) not being considered ‘real’ men or women.

Oh, and you can absolutely forget about non-binary transgendered people being portrayed at all. Gender in TV-land is strictly limited to ‘man’ and ‘woman’, it seems.


2) On the subject of transgendered people, it’s interesting to note that the vast majority of transsexuals shown in media are trans women – trans men rarely seem to get much of a look-in. In some cultures, where women are effectively treated as second-class citizens, this is because the idea of someone born male wanting to be recognised as a woman seems ridiculous (and therefore, more prone to being mocked), whereas someone born female wanting to be recognised as a man is seen as trying to acquire ‘male privilege’ for themselves, and dealt with accordingly.

Even in more tolerant countries (that said, there are FAR too many cases of sexism against both men AND women everywhere in the world, but that discussion is for another time…), males who identify as women are seen as more ‘shocking’ with regards to cultural and societal norms. It’s far too common to hear someone deride trans women as ‘men who wear dresses’, once again ignoring the many other aspects to transitioning. After all, society may have accepted women wearing what was traditionally seen as ‘men’s clothing’, but god forbid if a man decides to wear a dress or a skirt. On the whole, this gives off the impression that the number of trans women is much higher than the number of trans men, when in reality there is no statistically significant difference.

This is not just limited to transgendered people. In a similar fashion, gay men receive considerably more media coverage than lesbians do. Much more scientific research has been done into the nature of male homosexuality than female homosexuality. This in itself relates to how women in general are regarded as compared to men, but as I’ve said before, that discussion is best had at a later date…


3) In recent times, there have been more same-sex couples portrayed in media. This is great, of course, but there seem to be many double standards with relation to how they’re portrayed compared to opposite-sex couples. For a start, there never really seem to, well, do anything you’d expect a couple to do (not on-screen, at any rate). The occasional kiss or romantic date will rarely be shown or even mentioned, and at worst they won’t even so much as hold hands. In effect, they end up looking more like two good friends rather than a romantic couple. Whilst there are indeed cases where one or both members of a same-sex couple will be reluctant to show intimacy in public due to fear of a homophobic response, the fact that in the media this is applied to almost all same-sex couples leads to a lot of unfortunate implications. It almost seems to be saying “don’t worry, it’s OK to be a gay couple, just so long as they don’t actually act like a couple”.

N.B. The above only applies if the couple in question consists of two men. If it’s two women then the above rules get completely chucked out of the window. After all, a very large portion of media is written by heterosexual men, and girl-on-girl is hot, right? Never mind that via those double standards you’re denigrating the women in question into meaningless sex objects... In effect, what happens is that whoever wrote the show/film/book etc. is perfectly comfortable with writing about two women being intimate, but is deeply uncomfortable with writing about two men being intimate – what if viewers start calling their sexuality into question? How could they bear such a scandal? Most simply wouldn’t dare take the risk.

In fact, that’s exactly why there’s so much lesbian porn out there – because there are guys out there who are genuinely so insecure about their sexuality that the idea of enjoying porn with a guy in it is downright terrifying to them.


4) This point ultimately applies to minority groups in general, not just LGBTQ people. Essentially, if one ‘token’ character is included in the main cast (said person may be the only female main character, or they might be of a certain racial group, but in this instance I’ll be talking about LGBTQ characters), there is a considerable tendency for said character to be overwhelmingly talented and have next to no real flaws. Such a character will always be right, and will hardly ever do any wrong. Fortunately this isn’t always taken to Mary Sue extremes, but having a character, any character, who is too perfect just doesn’t seem right.

One key rule of any form of media is that balanced characters need valid flaws. And not trivial stuff like “oh, he/she’s a terrible singer” which will rarely if ever have any impact on the storyline. Actual flaws – be that stubbornness, shyness, inflated ego, being slightly dim-witted etc. By portraying a minority character as being ‘above’ these flaws, a different sort of prejudice altogether is being encouraged. Since they don’t have ‘human’ flaws and inadequacies, how can they be said to be able to reflect upon real people who are members of said minority group? People may begin to resent the character, not because of the minority group they are a part of, but simply because said character is NOT well-balanced.

This particular one, as well-intentioned as it is, ultimately doesn’t do minority groups (and in particular the LGBTQ community) any favours.


5) OK, this one in particular really, really bugs me – where are all the bisexuals? Seriously – when it comes to soap operas or any other sort of drama, it seems that if someone has previously dated people of the opposite gender, and is now shown as being attracted to the same gender, they will lose their attraction to the opposite gender completely and fully embrace their ‘gay’ identity. In TV-land, apparently sexuality is a binary – you’re either straight or you’re gay. Period.

Assuming that a show DOES feature a bisexual character, said characters are disproportionately represented as being sex-crazy and willing to do anyone, whilst remaining completely incapable of holding down a monogamous relationship. Of course, there is a tendency for gay men to be portrayed in this way as well, but it’s especially pronounced with the representation of bisexual characters. The idea that all bisexuals are promiscuous is roughly equivalent to saying that if a heterosexual man is attracted to both blonde and brunette women, he is incapable of holding down a monogamous relationship with a brunette woman. Being attracted to both genders does NOT mean that someone will be attracted to EVERYONE from both genders. Of course, promiscuous bisexual people DO exist in the real world. But then, so do promiscuous heterosexual and homosexual people. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with that.


6) But when all is said and done, what many people fail to realise is that people who are LGBTQ vary just as much with regards to personality, interests, lifestyle etc. as heterosexual people do. And while there are certainly more LGBTQ people being represented now than there were even ten years ago, there’s one key problem that continues to persist and is unfortunately likely to continue for a long time: if a show/film/book includes a protagonist that is gay, for example, you can be 99% sure that the plot will revolve around their sexuality, or at the very least it will be a major plot point.

The same applies to transgendered characters – if they’re a major character, there will almost always be a huge focus on how they live as their ‘new’ gender, how people react etc. And of course, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. There have been many excellent works with regards to someone’s transitioning, or coming to terms with their sexuality and finding happiness, but if these are the ONLY works featuring LGBTQ protagonists that get produced, it ends up with gay/bisexual characters being defined ONLY by their sexuality, and transgendered characters being defined ONLY by their gender.

Why would it be so difficult for, say, a cheesy rom-com to feature a trans woman and her boyfriend, or for an action-packed adventure movie to feature a female protagonist who just so happens to be a lesbian, or for a children’s movie to star a teacher who wants to stop the school from being closed down – a teacher who just so happens to swing both ways? Why must their sexuality or gender identity always play a huge part of the film they appear in?


At the end of the day, LGBTQ people are people just like anyone else. They have hobbies and interests just like anyone else. They have emotions like anyone else. They want to be happy, just like anyone else. It’s just that they’ve had to contemplate their own identity whilst growing up a lot more on average than cisgendered and heterosexual people have.

There are many, many, many more things I could say here, but I think I’d better stop now. Overall, if same-sex marriage is legalised (and in the case of the UK at least, they’ve already said that they plan to have it legalised by 2015), that would be an excellent step in the right direction, but there is still a long, long way to go if we want to get away from the heteronormativity that pervades every aspect of society.
 

Claire Diviner

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I've been meaning to do a blog like this, as I've come out as transgender, and plan to see a therapist this year. That said, I have to say, this was an amazing read, and you certainly pointed things out far better than I would have done.

It's sad how LGBTQ people are portrayed in the media. One example that still bothers me is the Family Guy episode titled, "Thanksgiving" where Ida's character is treated like anything she says or does has little value simply because she's transgendered. She makes her debut in the episode "Quagmire's Dad", where (possibly for time reasons), the transition process is shown as a very simple thing when it clearly isn't.

Also, I despise the double standard of heterosexual men (especially the grossly homophobic ones) who can't stand the thought of two guys being in love, but they see two women being in love as an acceptable thing on the grounds that they believe it's sexy? It's that thought process that disgusts not just me, but many others, I'm sure. I would know this rather well, as I've a brother who has that same mindset; extremely homophobic to the point where he'll show rage if a gay man were to even speak to him, but loves the idea of lesbians.

The sad truth is, we as a society have a very long way to go before achieving the equality we want for all human beings, where a lack of tolerance is no longer an issue. What's sadder still is that I don't know if we'll have that kind of equality in America during our lifetime, and I believe media has played a large part in the way society views LGBTQ people.


so you are saying men in dresses doesnt look ridiculous?
Why would it be ridiculous? If women can wear a man's clothing and be accepted by society for it, then why not men in women's clothes? You'd be surprised at how good guys can look in female clothing, and I'm not talking about drag queens either.
 

Jam Stunna

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In regards to your first point, the reason why so much emphasis is placed on sex change when it comes to portraying transgendered people is that it's very hard (if not impossible) for most people to separate "sex" and "gender." As far as most people are concerned, having a penis makes you man, and having a vagina makes you a woman. There's very little understanding that sex organs determine a person's sex, not a person's gender. Gender is socially constructed and independent of sex, although the two are very strongly correlated in our society.

As we understand it, male and female (sex) are interchangeable with man and woman (gender). Your sex organs make you male or female, but your gender identification is your own, and that's a nuance that almost never shows up in media, so the focus remains on a person's sex organs defining their gender.
 

Claire Diviner

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In regards to your first point, the reason why so much emphasis is placed on sex change when it comes to portraying transgendered people is that it's very hard (if not impossible) for most people to separate "sex" and "gender." As far as most people are concerned, having a penis makes you man, and having a vagina makes you a woman. There's very little understanding that sex organs determine a person's sex, not a person's gender. Gender is socially constructed and independent of sex, although the two are very strongly correlated in our society.

As we understand it, male and female (sex) are interchangeable with man and woman (gender). Your sex organs make you male or female, but your gender identification is your own, and that's a nuance that almost never shows up in media, so the focus remains on a person's sex organs defining their gender.
Sad to say, but that's pretty much how society is. They focus too much on the genitals and rarely recognize how one feels or identifies with on the inside, and that's the bigger problem. The trick is getting society to understand that, and by the way it looks, I don't see that kind of understanding to happen anytime soon.
 

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Very good read, although i would have preferred some examples because i don't watch much tv.

Kind of sad when you think about it :(
 

Shorts

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Grey's Anatomy has had a female character be in their story since the second season who has been both Married to a male and (now currently) a female. It has shown the two having romantic kisses, as well as emotional scenes together involving nothing sexual. So, they're a couple that I see that throws out what you said about the usual "Girl-on-Girl" action. The creator of grey's anatomy is a female, btw.

As for gay males in tv, characters from past seasons of Skins (UK) have been gay, and even bisexual, and been prominent in the storyline. The two gay males, two gay females, and one bisexual male have often been shown to have flaws (Such as cheating, drug usage, as well as other emotional internal struggles)

Lastly, if you're looking for the most "normal" potrayal of a gay male, look no further than in the character Marshall, from the United States of Tara. He's probably the most well written gay kid I can think of.
 

Claire Diviner

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Grey's Anatomy has had a female character be in their story since the second season who has been both Married to a male and (now currently) a female. It has shown the two having romantic kisses, as well as emotional scenes together involving nothing sexual. So, they're a couple that I see that throws out what you said about the usual "Girl-on-Girl" action. The creator of grey's anatomy is a female, btw.

As for gay males in tv, characters from past seasons of Skins (UK) have been gay, and even bisexual, and been prominent in the storyline. The two gay males, two gay females, and one bisexual male have often been shown to have flaws (Such as cheating, drug usage, as well as other emotional internal struggles)

Lastly, if you're looking for the most "normal" potrayal of a gay male, look no further than in the character Marshall, from the United States of Tara. He's probably the most well written gay kid I can think of.
I have to say those are all great examples. It's a shame the majority of programs do not show LGBTQ characters like this. Still, we can only hope that the examples you just gave becomes more and more of a standard on how to portray characters, rather than make them extreme portrayals of stereotypes.
 

Luigitoilet

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If you're going to post something like that, then you were better off not having posted anything at all.
Your post right here is just as useless. Don't reply to trolls.

anyways, one thing that always kills me is when someone talks about a homosexual relationship in terms of "so which one plays the man role and which one plays the female role?" The idea that a romantic and parental relationship can be something else entirely that doesn't fall under the man/woman construct is an entirely foreign concept to a lot of people, even to a lot of well meaning "progressive" people.
 

Jim Morrison

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Why would it be so difficult for, say, a cheesy rom-com to feature a trans woman and her boyfriend, or for an action-packed adventure movie to feature a female protagonist who just so happens to be a lesbian, or for a children’s movie to star a teacher who wants to stop the school from being closed down – a teacher who just so happens to swing both ways? Why must their sexuality or gender identity always play a huge part of the film they appear in?
If it's not relevant for the plot, why the need to still mention a character were gay. It would still bring the same focus to being the abnormal state.
 

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I'm all for better portrayal but the point about men preferring lesbian porn because they feel insecure about watching a man is complete BS.

They prefer lesbian porn because the sexual object is the female, and lesbian porn has two sexual objects. That's why the second woman is always hot, and not some random, even though a random woman is likely to be hotter to the viewer than a male.

I don't even watch porn but I could work that out simply by being a hetero male myself.

This insecurity stuff you always hear is complete BS. Hetero homophobes don't feel threatened by gays, they just find them disgusting and feel that they deviate from their perceived male gender role. The type of men who hate on gays are also the types to hate on others who deviate from the mainstream perception of masculinity, such as nerds or hipsters.

I'm all for equality and fair portrayal but it's incredibly hippocritical when gay people start telling us how straight people think.

:phone:
 

mountain_tiger

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If it's not relevant for the plot, why the need to still mention a character were gay. It would still bring the same focus to being the abnormal state.
A lot of films show the protagonist interacting with their boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife, even if the romance itself isn't a major part of the film's plot. So it wouldn't really be calling attention to it.



Grey's Anatomy has had a female character be in their story since the second season who has been both Married to a male and (now currently) a female. It has shown the two having romantic kisses, as well as emotional scenes together involving nothing sexual. So, they're a couple that I see that throws out what you said about the usual "Girl-on-Girl" action. The creator of grey's anatomy is a female, btw.

As for gay males in tv, characters from past seasons of Skins (UK) have been gay, and even bisexual, and been prominent in the storyline. The two gay males, two gay females, and one bisexual male have often been shown to have flaws (Such as cheating, drug usage, as well as other emotional internal struggles)

Lastly, if you're looking for the most "normal" potrayal of a gay male, look no further than in the character Marshall, from the United States of Tara. He's probably the most well written gay kid I can think of.
Those are good examples of LGBTQ portrayal done right. We could do with more of them.


Your post right here is just as useless. Don't reply to trolls.

anyways, one thing that always kills me is when someone talks about a homosexual relationship in terms of "so which one plays the man role and which one plays the female role?" The idea that a romantic and parental relationship can be something else entirely that doesn't fall under the man/woman construct is an entirely foreign concept to a lot of people, even to a lot of well meaning "progressive" people.
I hate that one as well. :mad:



In regards to your first point, the reason why so much emphasis is placed on sex change when it comes to portraying transgendered people is that it's very hard (if not impossible) for most people to separate "sex" and "gender." As far as most people are concerned, having a penis makes you man, and having a vagina makes you a woman. There's very little understanding that sex organs determine a person's sex, not a person's gender. Gender is socially constructed and independent of sex, although the two are very strongly correlated in our society.

As we understand it, male and female (sex) are interchangeable with man and woman (gender). Your sex organs make you male or female, but your gender identification is your own, and that's a nuance that almost never shows up in media, so the focus remains on a person's sex organs defining their gender.
It doesn't help that 'gender' is extremely difficult to define, whereas 'sex' is much easier.


I'm all for better portrayal but the point about men preferring lesbian porn because they feel insecure about watching a man is complete BS.

They prefer lesbian porn because the sexual object is the female, and lesbian porn has two sexual objects. That's why the second woman is always hot, and not some random, even though a random woman is likely to be hotter to the viewer than a male.

I don't even watch porn but I could work that out simply by being a hetero male myself.

This insecurity stuff you always hear is complete BS. Hetero homophobes don't feel threatened by gays, they just find them disgusting and feel that they deviate from their perceived male gender role. The type of men who hate on gays are also the types to hate on others who deviate from the mainstream perception of masculinity, such as nerds or hipsters.

I'm all for equality and fair portrayal but it's incredibly hippocritical when gay people start telling us how straight people think.
I phrased that part badly. It's not the sole reason why it's popular, but it's a big contributing factor in many cases.
 

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I phrased that part badly. It's not the sole reason why it's popular, but it's a big contributing factor in many cases.
To be honest I'd just remove that part completely because the logic is very flawed. Like Dre. said, why would a straight man watch two men having sexual interaction with each other when he gets turned on by women? It may be more appealling to women but the porn industry is generally more aimed at a male audience at most males are straight.

It's also a pity because it comes right after your brilliant remark of "If it’s two women then the above rules get completely chucked out of the window.", which is absolutely true. I don't watch much television or many films anymore, but whenever you see two gay men, they'll barely do anymore than tentatively holding pinkies, whereas with two lesbian women it's immediate SCISSORS SEX everywhere. Mutual sexual interaction by two women is not a rarity, occasionally there may even be a sex scene where one of both of the women aren't lesbian. No one seems to bother. I have yet to see that with two men but if it were to happen I would imagine much surprise and even indignation of its audience.

But other than particular part, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. There is a still a long way to go.


:052:
 

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It has nothing to do with its popularity.

Lesbian action where the second woman isn't hot would probably be less popular than hetero porn, yet there's nothing to feel threatened about there.

In fact the nature of the male is important in porn where the sexual content is derived from the relationship between the two pornstars. A classic example is dominatrix porn. The male has to fit the character of a submissive man. Here the nature of the male is very important to the quality of sexual content. There is a large market for this type of porn, and the people who watch it don't have insecurity.

So the reason why some men prefer lesbian porn is because to them males offer no stimulation, and lesbian porn doubles the number of sexual objects.

You're talking about portrayal issues yet you're misportraying straight men.

:phone:
 

#HBC | Joker

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It doesn't get portrayed because people get all up in arms about it. Remember when Brokeback Mountain came out and won Oscars and ****? People were outside protesting cuz of that.

Also, it would be kinda dumb to have some teacher trying to save the school be gay. When they show an opposite sex partner in the background, it can be written off as not important because it's the social norm. Conversely, they show them just randomly lying in bed, thinking about how they can save the goddamn school, and suddenly it hits them! They sit up in bed, turn the light on, and exclaim, "Eureka!" Then and you see their same sex partner lying next to them in bed. Like it or not, that's gonna detract from what's going on. You're supposed to be paying attention to what the main character is saying, cuz it's advancing the plot, but instead you're sitting there thinking, "Wait a minute, they're gay? Wtf, why didn't they ever mention that? That's random." Why throw in random distractions that ultimately add nothing to your story?
 

Luigitoilet

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The more that gay couples appear in TV shows, the less distracting it will become. It shouldn't be shoehorned or forced into every TV show and movie, but it shouldn't be actively avoided like it is. We need movies like Brokeback Mountain. It's important for culture. People's views need to be actively challenged. Art should be provocative or it becomes irrelevant.

It's incredibly obvious that social ingrained homophobia cost Brokeback Mountain the Oscar. That was by far the best nominee from that year.
 

#HBC | Joker

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People write about stuff they know about. As a heterosexual white male, why would I write a TV show/Movie about transgender people? I mean, this same **** applies to all minorities being represented in media. Ya know why they get under represented? Cuz they're minorities. If the writer only has 1 black friend, he's not gonna make the cast of his show represent the US Census, he's gonna draw from what he knows. So there's prolly gonna be just the 1 black guy in the show. Same **** applies to transgenders. I dunno how many of them you know outside of the internet, but I don't know ANY. Despite the fact that they exist, most people just don't know anyone like that, so why would they write one into their show? They wouldn't have anything to draw on, so it'd be pointless, and poorly written to boot.

As for gay people, guess what? I only know 1 gay guy, and guess what? He's just like all my other friends. He plays lasertag, he makes jokes, reads comics, and if you say something girly, he'll even call you a *** (because irony is awesome). I never see him kiss dudes, or suck penis. If he hadn't told me he was gay, I'd never know. So if I wrote a movie, and he was in it, what would be different? He'd still be the same gay guy he is in real life, but you'd never know it watching the movie. That's not me, as a writer, being afraid to show gay people being romantic with each other, that's just me writing the way my life looks. The "straight" characters don't all make out with chicks in every tv show/movie ever made, so why even assume they're straight? Did you know that in the first Transporter movie, Jason Statham decided that his character was gay, and that's how he played him?

Gays/transgeners aren't necesarily that under represented. Sure, they don't pop up in the media the in same exact proportion that they exist in, but there are a lot of pretty logical reasons for that. It's not like they go around carrying big neon signs exclaiming who they are to the world. And the ones who do? Well those are the over the top stereotypes you dislike so much, for the most part.
 

SuperMetroid44

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Ooooo yes, this was a juicy read. You really clocked the tea on some important subjects which I agree with you on. However, I gotta clock you now for this little comment you made.

In fact, that’s exactly why there’s so much lesbian porn out there – because there are guys out there who are genuinely so insecure about their sexuality that the idea of enjoying porn with a guy in it is downright terrifying to them.
What?? Your logic is so flawed it doesn't even make sense. Most straight guys like it because it's 2 women going at it, not cuz of insecurity, maybe for some it is, but saying a big majority is pushing it, and you look really foolish being so confident with that without a source or anything. Now what do straight men find attractive? Women. Have 2 women in it and the turn on increases by a whole lot, that's the reason why straight guys will generally watch and look at this "sensually loving". ;p But yes, I needed to clock the tea on that statement.

so you are saying men in dresses doesnt look ridiculous?
They don't look ridiculous, what a conniving thing to say...

It has nothing to do with its popularity.

Lesbian action where the second woman isn't hot would probably be less popular than hetero porn, yet there's nothing to feel threatened about there.

In fact the nature of the male is important in porn where the sexual content is derived from the relationship between the two pornstars. A classic example is dominatrix porn. The male has to fit the character of a submissive man. Here the nature of the male is very important to the quality of sexual content. There is a large market for this type of porn, and the people who watch it don't have security.

So the reason why some men prefer lesbian porn is because to them makes offer no stimulation, and lesbian porn doubles the number of sexual objects.

You're talking about portrayal issues yet you're misportraying straight men.

:phone:
Oooooo yes, keep on preaching.

People write about stuff they know about. As a heterosexual white male, why would I write a TV show/Movie about transgender people? I mean, this same **** applies to all minorities being represented in media. Ya know why they get under represented? Cuz they're minorities. If the writer only has 1 black friend, he's not gonna make the cast of his show represent the US Census, he's gonna draw from what he knows. So there's prolly gonna be just the 1 black guy in the show. Same **** applies to transgenders. I dunno how many of them you know outside of the internet, but I don't know ANY. Despite the fact that they exist, most people just don't know anyone like that, so why would they write one into their show? They wouldn't have anything to draw on, so it'd be pointless, and poorly written to boot.

As for gay people, guess what? I only know 1 gay guy, and guess what? He's just like all my other friends. He plays lasertag, he makes jokes, reads comics, and if you say something girly, he'll even call you a *** (because irony is awesome). I never see him kiss dudes, or suck penis. If he hadn't told me he was gay, I'd never know. So if I wrote a movie, and he was in it, what would be different? He'd still be the same gay guy he is in real life, but you'd never know it watching the movie. That's not me, as a writer, being afraid to show gay people being romantic with each other, that's just me writing the way my life looks. The "straight" characters don't all make out with chicks in every tv show/movie ever made, so why even assume they're straight? Did you know that in the first Transporter movie, Jason Statham decided that his character was gay, and that's how he played him?

Gays/transgeners aren't necesarily that under represented. Sure, they don't pop up in the media the in same exact proportion that they exist in, but there are a lot of pretty logical reasons for that. It's not like they go around carrying big neon signs exclaiming who they are to the world. And the ones who do? Well those are the over the top stereotypes you dislike so much, for the most part.
Oooooooooo YES, I definitely agree with this. And also, Same with my friends as well. XD
 

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People write about stuff they know about. As a heterosexual white male, why would I write a TV show/Movie about transgender people? I mean, this same **** applies to all minorities being represented in media. Ya know why they get under represented? Cuz they're minorities. If the writer only has 1 black friend, he's not gonna make the cast of his show represent the US Census, he's gonna draw from what he knows. So there's prolly gonna be just the 1 black guy in the show. Same **** applies to transgenders. I dunno how many of them you know outside of the internet, but I don't know ANY. Despite the fact that they exist, most people just don't know anyone like that, so why would they write one into their show? They wouldn't have anything to draw on, so it'd be pointless, and poorly written to boot.

As for gay people, guess what? I only know 1 gay guy, and guess what? He's just like all my other friends. He plays lasertag, he makes jokes, reads comics, and if you say something girly, he'll even call you a *** (because irony is awesome). I never see him kiss dudes, or suck penis. If he hadn't told me he was gay, I'd never know. So if I wrote a movie, and he was in it, what would be different? He'd still be the same gay guy he is in real life, but you'd never know it watching the movie. That's not me, as a writer, being afraid to show gay people being romantic with each other, that's just me writing the way my life looks. The "straight" characters don't all make out with chicks in every tv show/movie ever made, so why even assume they're straight? Did you know that in the first Transporter movie, Jason Statham decided that his character was gay, and that's how he played him?

Gays/transgeners aren't necesarily that under represented. Sure, they don't pop up in the media the in same exact proportion that they exist in, but there are a lot of pretty logical reasons for that. It's not like they go around carrying big neon signs exclaiming who they are to the world. And the ones who do? Well those are the over the top stereotypes you dislike so much, for the most part.
I strongly disagree with this interpretation of "writing what you know." Anyone creative enough to write (or engage in any creative activity) should have enough imagination to at least try to understand the world from someone else's perspective, and to represent that perspective.
 

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gotta agree with Jam. Private Joker, if that is how you yourself write art, you are a boring, uncreative and middling writer. If the people you look up to write like that, then they are also boring, unadventurous and middling writers. Writing is an exploration. If all people wrote only what they know, movies and all media would be extremely neutered and useless.

I don't know any murderers, rapists or hitmen (that I know of) but why should that stop me from writing about those things?
 

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But if you were gonna write a story about a serial killer or some ****, you'd probably study the subject. Read about Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gaysey, or whatever else you can find. Anything you already know on the subject is likely just what you've already seen on TV and in Movies. You're gonna rely on that?

And you guys are wrong about not writing what you know. Sure, people can think creatively, and imagine things from a different perspective. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not, just like anything else. But the idea of transgender people is a very foreign idea to most people. If you don't know somebody like that, it's probably not something you think about very often, or even at all. So again I ask you, why would I write about a transgender character on my TV show? Unless I thought of a story where the character being transgender/transexual/whatever was actually pivotal to the plot, why would I even think of it?

Gay people, however, are making their way into the media a bit more these days. Slowly but surely, homosexuality is becoming a less foreign concept to the population as a whole. Many gays now feel safe enough to be more open about who they are with their friends, their family, and themselves. It's not news to anyone that they are still very much a persecuted minority group, but things are slowly getting better. That's a helluva lot better than getting worse.

Overall though, I think it's stupid to worry about **** like representation in the media at a time where LGBTQ people don't even have the same civil rights as everyone else.
 

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But if you were gonna write a story about a serial killer or some ****, you'd probably study the subject. Read about Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gaysey, or whatever else you can find. Anything you already know on the subject is likely just what you've already seen on TV and in Movies. You're gonna rely on that?
What's your point? What are you saying? LGBTQ is an unknowable phenomenon that cannot be studied? I can't talk to a trans or gay friend of mine, go on a LGBTQ forum and get to know people, or in general learn about LGBTQ the same way I can learn about serial killers? I know many more gay and bi people than I do serial killers.

And you guys are wrong about not writing what you know. Sure, people can think creatively, and imagine things from a different perspective. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not, just like anything else. But the idea of transgender people is a very foreign idea to most people. If you don't know somebody like that, it's probably not something you think about very often, or even at all. So again I ask you, why would I write about a transgender character on my TV show? Unless I thought of a story where the character being transgender/transexual/whatever was actually pivotal to the plot, why would I even think of it?
You say we are wrong but you don't really counter our points with anything.

But this does remind me of a point I've thought about a lot and maybe Jam has some insight into this. I think there IS a certain point at which it becomes haphazard or reckless to write about a certain topic. For instance, I highly doubt a white person could have written and directed films like Do the Right Thing, Malcolm X and Bamboozled. We (white people) will never really know what it's like to be black. At a certain point, does it become offensive to a demographic when they are being "thrown a bone" so to speak by the majority? It's a wishwashy subject. Still though, I believe that anyone can write about anything. It's just that certain topics really need to be treated with fragility and respect.

Also, I'm not sure what TV/movies you are watching that aren't hypersexualized to the nth degree. Nearly every major Hollywood movie has a romantic subplot and often extraneous sex scenes. If we have to watch two pretty white people fake heterosexual sex when it's not relevant to the plot, there is no reason that gay or trans couples cannot be included.

You're not obligated to put anything you don't want to in your own writing. What I'm getting at is that LGBTQ are real things. I'm not saying that Walter White from Breaking Bad should be a transvestite or that Optimus Prime should be a gay bear. I'm mostly contesting that you seem to think putting in these alternate forms of sexuality into any work is not worth it because it is "distracting" and because it is "foreign" to people.
 

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But this does remind me of a point I've thought about a lot and maybe Jam has some insight into this. I think there IS a certain point at which it becomes haphazard or reckless to write about a certain topic. For instance, I highly doubt a white person could have written and directed films like Do the Right Thing, Malcolm X and Bamboozled. We (white people) will never really know what it's like to be black. At a certain point, does it become offensive to a demographic when they are being "thrown a bone" so to speak by the majority? It's a wishwashy subject. Still though, I believe that anyone can write about anything. It's just that certain topics really need to be treated with fragility and respect.
I was talking to a white friend of mine who works in the media a few weeks ago about race issues, and he basically said that he doesn't think that it would appropriate for him to write or say certain things on the topic because, although he sympathized with the issues of blacks, as a white male the stakes weren't as high for him.

It's a slightly different argument from your concern, LT, but at base it's the same: that white people can't speak about black issues. I reject that notion for a couple of reasons:

1) It suggests that empathy requires similar experiences, and not only do I think that's not true, but it would be really awful if it were. I don't think you need understanding to write about someone else's life, because that is impossible. All you need is empathy, and to get that all you need to do is to listen with an open mind and an open heart.

2) I think it would honestly be useful for sensitive subjects to be discussed from varying viewpoints and perspectives. Sure, you might get *******ess who say dumb things, but that's going to be true no matter who's doing the talking.

The same holds true for gay/transgender writing. I've written a few short stories with lesbian main characters, because one of my best friends is a lesbian, and I want to speak about her experiences. Maybe I'm wrong in the perspective I present, but I try to treat the topic with respect.
 

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I do have to agree with Private Brown that you certainly should write only what you know, that is not boring at all, that is necessary if you don't want to write something one dimensional, shallow, and well... BORING (and potentially offensive and poorly represented). People who write sit and listen to people talk and how they are, and go to places and take from their experiences. Unfortunately, that is what we are stuck with. Also, serial killers and things like that are generally much more imperative and the center of focus in stories. Black people, gays, and other minorities are rarely the focus of a book, movie, or show, whereas murderous things are because they make for more traditional stories. It has nothing to do whether it is black or white or gay or straight, but that isn't the focus most people go for when writing a story. Hell, I love writing stories, but I'd be bored writing something like that, people aren't incorrect for focusing more on those elements if that is their interesting. The thing is, people DO write stories and such describing minority situations, that stuff happens, and like Private said, it is growing. But you can't expect that genre of movie, show, or book to be more prominent than traditional stories that focus on adventure, suspense, etc.

And I think you mean "sympathy" Jam. Empathy implies you have similar personal experiences. A white person will never know the racism of blacks in terms of experience, and a straight person will never know the experience of being a gay person.
 

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Empathy doesn't imply similar personal experiences. Empathy is the ability to recognize emotions in someone else. Sympathy is feeling the same way as someone else, which does imply similar personal experiences.

I don't want to derail the thread so I'll keep it brief, but I strongly disagree with your statements about writing what you know as well, Holder.

Basically, to illustrate both empathy and "writing what you don't know," look at both versions of Brokeback Mountain. Anne Proulx is not, and never was, a gay cowboy, yet Brokeback Mountain is a great story. Ang Lee is not, and never was, a gay cowboy, yet Brokeback Mountain is a great movie.
 

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No Jam, you mixed up the definitions of sympathy and empathy. XD Google it, you'll see.

That didn't refute at all what I was saying. I said people do that. I never said they couldn't. .___. You didn't read my post.
 

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Anne Proulx doesn't have to be a gay cowboy to write Brokeback Mountain, but I'd bet money she has gay friends. You said yourself, you have written stories with lesbian main characters because you have a friend who is a lesbian. You're not disproving my point with your examples at all. What makes you think every writer out there is conciously ignoring the plight of the LGBTQ community? I never said they were mentally incapable of sympathy/empathy for the LGBTQ cause, it's just not something every person has reason to think about. It's not being ignored, it just isn't something they're close to. It's totally legitimate that there is a large portion of the US population who just flat out NEVER thinks about what life must be like for gays. It's not that they're incapable of thinking about it, they just don't. How are you not getting this?
 

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I wasn't addressing your point, LT was. And when did I say that anyone was ignoring LGBTQ community? My comments about empathy were directed at LT's question, not you or anyone else in this thread.
 

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I do have to agree with Private Brown that you certainly should write only what you know, that is not boring at all, that is necessary if you don't want to write something one dimensional, shallow, and well... BORING (and potentially offensive and poorly represented). People who write sit and listen to people talk and how they are, and go to places and take from their experiences. Unfortunately, that is what we are stuck with. Also, serial killers and things like that are generally much more imperative and the center of focus in stories. Black people, gays, and other minorities are rarely the focus of a book, movie, or show, whereas murderous things are because they make for more traditional stories. It has nothing to do whether it is black or white or gay or straight, but that isn't the focus most people go for when writing a story. Hell, I love writing stories, but I'd be bored writing something like that, people aren't incorrect for focusing more on those elements if that is their interesting. The thing is, people DO write stories and such describing minority situations, that stuff happens, and like Private said, it is growing. But you can't expect that genre of movie, show, or book to be more prominent than traditional stories that focus on adventure, suspense, etc.

And I think you mean "sympathy" Jam. Empathy implies you have similar personal experiences. A white person will never know the racism of blacks in terms of experience, and a straight person will never know the experience of being a gay person.
JK Rowling wrote about a teenage boy in a fantasy world of wizards and is now richer than the Queen.

Your opinion is wrong. Yes I said it.

Like really "writing about what you know". That's why most people on the internet are writing self insert fanfics about cutting their wrists over their love for Sonic, while authors are imagining up whole new worlds.

A NEW FANTASTIC POINT OF VIEW

NO ONE TO TELL US NO

OR WHERE TO GO

OR THAT WE'RE ONLY DREAMING

etc
 

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If an artist can only create from their experiences then they're just a glorified storyteller and not a proper artist.
 

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If an artist can only create from their experiences then they're just a glorified storyteller and not a proper artist.
I'm tempted to sig this.

Also, Holder, I'm not even going to get into how much I disagree with your sentiment of towing the line at what you know. I'll just say that I'm in full agreement with Jam and LT on this. I don't exactly agree with your point on "those kinds of themes" not being touched upon in mainstream writing, either; I've been outta the book reading loop for a while so I hope not to be too presumptuous when I say this, but I'll set my watch and warrant on the fact that there are quite a few best sellers out there that touch upon the plight of minorities or bring certain situations in history (be they racially charged, sexist, or discriminatory period) to light from the eyes of a character or someone who has experienced it. It's definitely not as rare you're thinking it is in books.

And Joker, here's a thought: Why shouldn't they think about it? Gimme a good reason outside of "writing what everybody else knows will sell."

*sighs.* Okay, final time editing this damn post: I (kind of) understand what you're getting at, Joker. I do. Just to be clear on that. I'm just not grasping why a character like that can't be a full-fledged character instead of a novelty when put in the limelight, or why other people can't write about them even when they've had limited experiences.

(Dammit all. Okay, last time. Seriously. Harkening back to LT's point, there are some topics that need to be treated with fragility and respect. However, it is not impossible to conceive and it just requires an open mind and a creative imagination. *flips a table.*)

Also, I know a lot of transgenders. It doesn't make me an expert in the slightest, but I'm sure I could say that I'm at least aware of their culture and could possibly draw some conclusions that aren't grossly exaggerated.

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JK Rowling wrote about a teenage boy in a fantasy world of wizards and is now richer than the Queen.

Your opinion is wrong. Yes I said it.

Like really "writing about what you know". That's why most people on the internet are writing self insert fanfics about cutting their wrists over their love for Sonic, while authors are imagining up whole new worlds.

A NEW FANTASTIC POINT OF VIEW

NO ONE TO TELL US NO

OR WHERE TO GO

OR THAT WE'RE ONLY DREAMING

etc
I don't think you understand the idea of imagining things. You take what you know, you mix around, throw it together, take pieces away, put pieces in, and you get chimerical worlds and situations. I didn't say you need an emphatic understanding of supernatural things to come up with magical things. Did you know that if you want to write an adventure of magic and mystical characters, you are going to have to use what you KNOW to create that sense of wonder. What you know is the STARTING POINT. That is what you call inspiration. That is why sitting down and writing about a wizarding world isn't consistently the same thing and of the same quality. We are all using all sorts of different things that we know. I'm not so sure you understand the process of writing. I myself enjoy writing fantasy, and guess what, I'm still writing what I know, because I am using my experiences and imagination to make my own stuff up. .___.

And even if I did not possess that above point, to compare making up imaginary worlds that follow your own rules to creating a realistic rendition of actual minorities and focusing on the issues of their lives is laughable. Are you serious Hogan? Stick to leg dropping dudejacks, that is what you're good at. :laugh:


Smooth Criminal... I didn't say it was rare, I am saying those types of stories are a minority compared to what we usually see. That is a fact. I have no idea what you are going on about. I don't think anyone would dare deny this fact.

You guys need to read my posts more thoroughly. To simplify things, I am simply saying people understand more the traditional stories and have a better time understanding them (even if it is fantastical stuff they pulled out of their own ***) than real minority focused stories, and that there are more of the former than the latter. I'm not saying anything controversial here, I don't understand the malfunction.
 

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I don't think you understand the idea of imagining things. You take what you know, you mix around, throw it together, take pieces away, put pieces in, and you get chimerical worlds and situations. I didn't say you need an emphatic understanding of supernatural things to come up with magical things. Did you know that if you want to write an adventure of magic and mystical characters, you are going to have to use what you KNOW to create that sense of wonder. What you know is the STARTING POINT. That is what you call inspiration. That is why sitting down and writing about a wizarding world isn't consistently the same thing and of the same quality. We are all using all sorts of different things that we know. I'm not so sure you understand the process of writing. I myself enjoy writing fantasy, and guess what, I'm still writing what I know, because I am using my experiences and imagination to make my own stuff up. .___.
Fair enough, but the impression that some of us could have gotten earlier was that you didn't want to bother venturing outside of that little bubble of what you know and what you've experienced. Believe it or not, a great author isn't chained to his own imagination and viewpoint when concocting his worlds and his peoples; there's a much broader scope involved, usually with a lot of research, amalgamation of other ideas not entirely of their own, and critically thinking to the point of objectivity. Hell, there's also the will of the editors of the publishing company you might be writing for if you're expecting to make a buck off it, and I'm sure Jam has all sorts of stories revolving around circumventing that little roadblock (albeit through a more...non-fictional set of lenses, considering his profession).

If you're writing for solely for the pleasure of yourself, none of the above may apply to you (especially the bit about the editors). If you're writing to communicate a message or tell a story to others, however, simply twisting things around to make them work in your head isn't good enough.


Smooth Criminal... I didn't say it was rare, I am saying those types of stories are a minority compared to what we usually see. That is a fact. I have no idea what you are going on about. I don't think anyone would dare deny this fact.
Well, "minority" is connotative to "rare" by my reckoning, Holder. The syntax of your phrasing heavily implies that it might as well not exist at all (and I'm sure that wasn't your intent; this is why internet forums suck). I'm not talking about sheer popularity in comparison to other genres or whatever; I'm talking about volume and availability. Barring some fundie shop or wild conspiratorial banning of books somewhere, you can easily find books pertaining to LBGT lifestyles or minorities or whatever. I'll agree that those kinds of books aren't as popular, and they only appeal to a select audience, but they're not rare.

You guys need to read my posts more thoroughly.
no u

Edit: Got the edit, herp derp. I think I kind of acknowledged that in the above.

...kind of.

Regardless, we can keep the philosophical "how to write" crap out of this thread since that's not really what we're talking about in here.

Smooth Criminal
 

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Fair enough, but the impression that some of us could have gotten earlier was that you didn't want to bother venturing outside of that little bubble of what you know and what you've experienced. Believe it or not, a great author isn't chained to his own imagination and viewpoint when concocting his worlds and his peoples; there's a much broader scope involved, usually with a lot of research, amalgamation of other ideas not entirely of their own, and critically thinking to the point of objectivity. Hell, there's also the will of the editors of the publishing company you might be writing for if you're expecting to make a buck off it, and I'm sure Jam has all sorts of stories revolving around circumventing that little roadblock (albeit through a more...non-fictional set of lenses, considering his profession).
Well that is the thing, you still have to go out there and research and experience some things to get as close as possible to the real thing. It is hard to do this, and people do in fact do it, and very well I can imagine. I'm not fighting that, I agree.

Peeps, if you got the impression Smooth mentioned, don't assume that. If I felt that way, I'd be telling you to write biographies about yourself and welp that is it. Sorry for the confusion though.



Well, "minority" is connotative to "rare" by my reckoning, Holder. The syntax of your phrasing that heavily implies that it might as well not exist at all. I'm not talking about sheer popularity in comparison to other genres or whatever; I'm talking about volume and availability. Barring some fundie shop or wild conspiratorial banning of books somewhere, you can easily find books pertaining to LBGT lifestyles or minorities or whatever. I'll agree that those kinds of books aren't as popular, and they only appeal to a select audience.
Well, rare-er, I don't mean rare itself, and I never said anything close to nonexistence. But yeah, what you say beyond that I agree with.

Regardless, we can keep the philosophical "how to write" crap out of this thread since that's not really what we're talking about in here.
nou


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Personally, I think it's a little of both. Of course people write "what they wrote" and "draw from their experiences". Suppose someone who has little to no contact with a homosexual man, no experience with homosexuality, nor up to date concerning LGBTQ wrote about a love triangle between a gay man, a bisexual man, and a transvestite women. Unless he or she has a knack for writing, it wouldn't be too well received and just be an opinion piece because the work wouldn't be based on facts, experiences, or knowledge concerning LGBTQ issues.

That is why a author must draw from experiences to influences his or her story. Hell, J.R.R. Tolkien used his experiences in WWI and the encroaching industrialization of the country in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Need I mention the comparisons between industrialization and the Scouring of the Shire? Tolkien even said the combustion engine is a inherently evil. I imagine J.K. Rowling drew from several life experiences when writing Harry Potter as well as many more writers, authors, screenwriters, etc before and after her.

However, say a man writes about a love triangle between a gay man, a bisexual man, and a transvestite women with no prior knowledge to LGBTQ issues but, instead if writing what he knows, he does a vast amount of research.

He reads various news article, keeps up to date on recent issues, interviewed and observed homosexual, bisexual, and transvestite people from both genders, as well as poll/research opinions from people in general.

If research is down before hand and compiled together, the piece because more well informed, more factual, and a better written piece (unless the writer is a horrible writter).

In my opinion, its alright to write what you know because so Manu authors have done do, it doesn't make a work boring or of lesser value. That is why Stephen King is a successful writer. However, authors and writers should continue to push themselves into areas outside thier comfort levels in order to not only learn something new but to add to their expanding wealth of experiences.

Writers should write what they know and thier exoeriences but push themself to unfamiliar areas through research and investigation.

Basically, I can write a blog about being a foreigner and teaching English in Japan but I can imagine me writing a blog about being a foreigner and teaching English in China would be horrible and unfactual because I have never lived or visited the country. I could research it but, still, it would lack the credibility and necessary live experiences to make it into a good blog since I have never experienced it.

:phone:
 
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