Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[kackamee]

Is Greninja really hard to play online for anyone else? Sure that goes for most characters, but for some reason I find Greninja particularly difficult. He just feels so..slippery.

 

[David Galanos]

Is Greninja really hard to play online for anyone else? Sure that goes for most characters, but for some reason I find Greninja particularly difficult. He just feels so..slippery.

Yeah he's not fun with input lag. If connection is good it's fine for me since I pretty much can only practice online but bad connection or even just lag spikes can mess up his gameplay

 

[Jaguar360]

I struggle online with most of my characters tbh, but my Greninja gets noticeably worse when I go online. I SD more often with him, I fall into my opponents' traps more often than I should, and I mess up followups more than I would online. I just want to go to an offline tournament already so that I can finally compete with other people without lag and online weirdness holding me back.

 

[mimgrim]

So I've been losing interest/been thinking Greninja isn't quite what I'm looking for actually. Been thinking this for a while now and have now come to drop now that I have found a new interest who I believe has potential to be what I'm looking for (or close to it). So I'm probably gonna end up being a lot less active in this section (like almost never, aside from random pop-ins). Been a good ride, but Greninja just didn't stick (though he lasted the longest so far which is for sure).

 

[bc1910]

Just completed a mammoth post in the Competitive Impressions thread on why Greninja isn't a worse Sheik (or a worse Falcon?!). It's so apparent that people really don't use or understand Greninja at all since he was nerfed...

 

[FullMoon]

Just completed a mammoth post in the Competitive Impressions thread on why Greninja isn't a worse Sheik (or a worse Falcon?!). It's so apparent that people really don't use or understand Greninja at all since he was nerfed...

I feel you man, I do.

Don't let it annoy you too much though, that thread is really "We know nothing about your character but we'll judge him anyway - the thread"

 

[Seith]

Greninja is so underrated nowadays after his nerfing, people really just don't think hes viable anymore. Which is sad but that means less people know the matchup at least which sucks for them but is fantastic for us.

 

[Snackss]

I wouldn't say he's underrated so much as ignored and not understood at all. He's really not an appealing character to play in the slightest until you've put a lot of time, and even then he's one of the most discouraging characters in the game to use. He has extremely little room for error, has no moves to fall back on, he doesn't even have any way to get an early KO. You need to be completely on top of things all of the time and your reward for it is still a character who doesn't even come close to the top 5.

The only thing I can see happening where one player really manages to pull things off with him and becomes a consistent top competitor, and only that player manages to make anything work with him. Like Xian using Gen in Street Fighter IV. Or you know, aMSa and Yoshi. Considering aMSa is one of like, 3 people left in the world actually playing Greninja.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I had a thought of a potential mega evolution for our boy Greninja. Shinobi armour could end up looking great

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

So I've been losing interest/been thinking Greninja isn't quite what I'm looking for actually. Been thinking this for a while now and have now come to drop now that I have found a new interest who I believe has potential to be what I'm looking for (or close to it). So I'm probably gonna end up being a lot less active in this section (like almost never, aside from random pop-ins). Been a good ride, but Greninja just didn't stick (though he lasted the longest so far which is for sure).

Well that sucks. Fare well on your travels, mimgrim.

 

[momochuu]

i think greninja is actually quite powerful when you're on point with him. if there was someone that could always have their spacing on point and pull off his optimal combos greninja would be a threat. game's too early.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Sometimes when I try to down tilt I end up doing a very short hop just accompanied by a down air. Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[Snackss]

It can happen if you're standing on a platform.

 

[bc1910]

I feel you man, I do.

Don't let it annoy you too much though, that thread is really "We know nothing about your character but we'll judge him anyway - the thread"

Yeah you're right. I like that thread in general because I find it interesting but it's getting really stupid lately. If that thread doesn't "get" a character, they're suddenly bottom 10. And the rest of it is just whining about Sheik and Mii Brawler with a sprinkling of "look how good Wario is".

Amazing Ampharos just posted maybe the worst tier list I've ever seen lol. We're talking reddit tier list bad. I don't know why it got any likes let alone 6. Granted it's customs on/EVO rules which complicates things a little but it's still dreadful. Even aside from Greninja's stupid placement (bottom 10) he's got Pac-Man in bottom 5, Meta Knight in bottom 15 and Yoshi in top 5. He's also got Doc in high tier above loads of great characters including ROB, Peach and Wario. Doc might have good frame data but he frankly won't be able to compete in this game until they fix his Mac-tier recovery.

Oh and he called Greninja linear. lmao. I risk sounding like a complete dickwad here, but can we ban people who know nothing about this character from talking about him?

 

[Eddy]

Im this weekend at a tournament in the netherlands Mr R and Jmiller are also there it starts saturday from 12am and continues sunday at 12am in EU time hope some of you are going to watch it here the streamlink and swf thread:

http://www.twitch.tv/goodgameswp

http://smashboards.com/threads/may-...fessor-pro-amsah-jeapie-mr-r-j-miller.391891/

 

[Deleted member]

Just completed a mammoth post in the Competitive Impressions thread on why Greninja isn't a worse Sheik (or a worse Falcon?!). It's so apparent that people really don't use or understand Greninja at all since he was nerfed...

I know what you mean. For a couple weeks when I [seriously] picked up Greninja I practiced combos and techniques to help my game, but I still lost quite a bit. All the tech skill in the world can't help you win with Greninja until you realize that just because he is fast doesn't mean that he is an offensive character. Ever since I've played more defensive, zoned and spaced more, my game has improved significantly. Combine that with the habits people tend to fall into to deal with Greninja's zone its much easier to read and capitalize off of their mistakes (I especially love sweetspot Usmash after conditioning them into ledgejumps for a KO).

 

[momochuu]

yeah that thread sucks

"greninja is just a worse pikachu with water"

 

[Snackss]

But there are also occasionally people, probably not in that thread, who say that Greninja is top 10 potential but nobody is playing him at that level yet. Which would be nice to believe since he doesn't have the kind of flaws that cripple characters like Zelda and Falco, but nobody has really stepped up with enough frequency and consistency to back that up.

 

[FullMoon]

Well I would totally be trying to rep Greninja out there.

If it wasn't for the fact that I live in a country with a very small scene that is pretty much irrelevant lol.

I don't think Greninja is top 10 tho.

 

[momochuu]

some ****ty combo

 

[Deleted member]

I've been recently practicing Smashes (mainly JC Usmash after Nair/Dair and OoS) without the since I really think that Perfect Pivot Utilt and Dtilt are going to be essential combo starters/retreats later on in the meta. I can currently only do Perfect Pivots to the left though, so does anybody have some tips on training for going to the right besides "Go faster"?

I really love Utilt -> Faling Uair -> Repeat and with PPs I'll be able to get more landing traps/setups into it. For the next day or so I'll be practicing PPs, Smashes, and even more spaced Fairs.

 

[Snackss]

Who else has bad days as Greninja where he just feels really weak? Can't land any up smashes or down airs, nothing combos.

Meant to say down tilt.

 

[Kace Mono]

Who else has bad days as Greninja where he just feels really weak? Can't land any up smashes or down airs, nothing combos.

I get that alot, but then sometimes i just feel like i got it all nailed down and he moved like lightning.

 

[momochuu]

i think this is the first time i've ever seen consomme win on this channel lol

 

[Kace Mono]

i think this is the first time i've ever seen consomme win on this channel lol

Did he charge a shadow sneak while holding the edge? how did he do this?!

(Dont worry i figured it out. He clinged to the wall and charged it then jumped up and released it)

 

[FullMoon]

What are the best moves to cover ledge options with Greninja? Something I noticed I don't do often is trying to catch people as they're getting up from the ledge.

 

[Jaguar360]

What are the best moves to cover ledge options with Greninja? Something I noticed I don't do often is trying to catch people as they're getting up from the ledge.

Fully charged water shuriken covers a lot of ledge options, you can get sweetspot U-smash if they jump and d-smash can cover their getup attack or roll if spaced properly. Then you can go behind them and b-air to try for a stage spike. That's pretty much it I think.

 

[Snackss]

Charged shuriken doesn't hit everybody, though. On Mewtwo the last hit misses and all it does is make him fall off the ledge with no knockback. It misses Wii Fit Trainer entirely, which is incredibly annoying given how easily she can camp the ledge.

I was also playing with someone and had this happen:

 

[FullMoon]

Charged shuriken doesn't hit everybody, though. On Mewtwo the last hit misses and all it does is make him fall off the ledge with no knockback. It misses Wii Fit Trainer entirely, which is incredibly annoying given how easily she can camp the ledge.

I was also playing with someone and had this happen:

Oh my god I totally didn't expect that I almost choked on the popcorn I was eating XD

 

[David Galanos]

What are the best moves to cover ledge options with Greninja? Something I noticed I don't do often is trying to catch people as they're getting up from the ledge.

Last time I played @ KERO he was actually timing f smash to punish regular get up. It was working, though it takes practice and he said you kinda gotta learn the timing for characters.

I usually just charge shurikens and hope for the best, doesn't always work. Sometimes I think it's best to just try to react to their get up with a grab or up air spike if they jump, or maybe trump if I have time. I've tried jabbing at the ledge but it's not that great, it can work though. We don't really have anything like Falcon's jab to help cover ledges

Charged shuriken doesn't hit everybody, though. On Mewtwo the last hit misses and all it does is make him fall off the ledge with no knockback. It misses Wii Fit Trainer entirely, which is incredibly annoying given how easily she can camp the ledge.

I was also playing with someone and had this happen:

That's pretty crazy lol. This isn't nearly as crazy but on last game last stock at a tournament this weekend a pikachu was charging side b off stage near the ledge and hydro pump pushed him all the way out and he lost. I don't think you have any ability to DI in animations like that.

 

[Snackss]

I'm not feeling like Greninja can cut it in this game. He just pales in comparison to the other fast characters and the water shuriken nerf severely hurt his spacing game. I don't feel like he has anything to justify using him at this point.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja has a good neutral, an amazing advantaged state, a good disadvantaged state and amazing edgeguarding potential while also having one of the best recoveries in the game. Most characters fail on at least one of these including the supposed top tiers.

Falcon's disadvantage sucks and so does his recovery

Diddy's recovery is very exploitable and predictable

Ness has awful recovery

Luigi has bad neutral and unless jumpless cyclone is mastered he's easily edgeguarded

ZSS has bad neutral

Not to mention that characters like Sheik, Pikachu, Mario and Yoshi have trouble sealing stocks due to having little to no kill confirms which makes them rely on a read for a kill while Greninja has ton of kill confirms and his moves are far from being weak as well. He also has one of the more reliable kill throws since it doesn't depend on how close he is to the ledge to be effective all the time and a very easy time getting those grabs to begin with.

Greninja's weakness is his bad frame data (which consequently leads poor OoS options and difficulty to approach) but everything else about him is either good or amazing.

He might not be as easy as other characters due to needing more effort to do well, but Greninja is just as capable as any of the top tier and he definitely has a lot of top tier qualities that are balanced by his poor frame data.

 

[momochuu]

greninja's punish game is ridiculous, good mobility, good range, and he can convert off of almost any hit. his neutral and approaching options are just garbage.

 

[FullMoon]

I wouldn't say Greninja's neutral is bad when he has a very good dash grab and a fast projectile with good range. Greninja's neutral is to use his mobility to trick his opponent into doing something dumb and then punishing for it, you know, like a ninja.

Greninja excels at tricking the opponent and he has the perfect specs to play that kind of neutral game. He just sucks when he has to actually go after the opponent.

 

[Seith]

I don't have to terribly much trouble going after someone with Greninja. The best way to do it is just spam water shuriken when they have little to no way of avoiding it, if they're shielding just wait for an opportunity to punish their shield and if they try some sneaky air attack to get you to knock it off, just figure it out and punish.

 

[Snackss]

I was pretty unhappy but also secretly hoping for a response from someone like FullMoon. But do you really think Zero Suit neutral is bad? I guess it's pretty easy to force her hand and bait a grab.

What I wish for, aside from water shuriken buff, is up throw being more consistent. It's too hard to know when it's going to combo and when you need to wait for an airdodge and when you should back air and when you should neutral air or bait landing lag or what.

 

[FullMoon]

ZSS's neutral is bad because her grab leaves her wide open if she misses and a lot of her good moves have low vertical range like her F-Air so ducking can be a real problem for her. Also Paralyzer is pretty punishable.

For the most part I pretty much know by heart when Up-Throw is going to connect into Up-Air just by looking at how the opponent was sent flying, I don't think it's going to be very consistent as long as rage and stale moves still exist.

 

[KERO]

Sorry for yet another random absence (I have no excuse this time; just wanted a bit of a break after finals), but I've still put work in at tourneys.

Managed 13th at Shuffle VII (kind of wish I had done better), and recently I've been trying to perfect a new playstyle: Time-out Greninja.

The more I've messed with it and thought about it, the more I realized that Greninja, conceptually, can work very similarly to Brawl Wario as a time-out character. We have the mobility, the ludicrously safe moves, the range, and one of the best momentum mix-ups in Hydro Pump in order to run away to a very effective degree against a good portion of the cast (notably, Luigi, Ness, and Peach). Of course, Greninja can still work as that zoning, punish-heavy character we all love, but as someone that genuinely enjoys time-outs, I definitely want to keep exploring this style with Greninja.

As for ledge options, if you can find a way to practice the timing for all characters (they all have different get-up animations), I definitely feel Fsmash is an excellent punishment option. The charge frame is frame 8, and as it comes out on frame 13, the moment you release the charge, it comes out almost instantaneously, lasting a whole three frames. Not to mention that you're of course gonna get some ludicrously early kills on people with it. Personally, I find that Luigi, Mario, Doctor Mario, Sheik, and Rosalina are some of the easier ones to figure out while Greninja, Pit, Dark Pit, and Diddy are some of the weirder ones to get.

I don't know if this has already been discovered, but I did discover something interesting with Stagnant Shuriken a couple weeks ago. From 0% to about 55-60%, if you get them stuck in a Stagnant Shuriken, you can footstool them right as it ends, Dair, charge shuriken, release it, and repeat until the Dair doesn't reset them anymore (once you learn what this is, you can use Fsmash in order to get the full 70ish percent on them). Additionally, from about 80% onward, you can footstool to Nair to Usmash for a kill. (Edit: Turns out someone did find it haha)

Finally, I'm confirmed to be going to Japan for a study abroad program, which is going to be wonderful. Hopefully I get to meet the Japanese Greninjas and learn as much as I can from them.

 

[momochuu]

but as someone that genuinely enjoys time-outs, I definitely want to keep exploring this style with Greninja.

you're gross.

 

[KERO]

you're gross.

I have been told =x I played a very defensive Brawl Oli for six years, enjoying every second of it; what else could you expect?