Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[David Galanos]

I'm also a bit surprised that a Ganon is ranked number 1. Anyways, amazing job making it to an offical PR @Marilink. Good luck afterwards.

On to something else. Don't know if this have been discovered or not, so I might as well share it.
I was messing around with Greninja in Training Mode yesterday and I discovered something that might be useful

Here it is: http://www.gfycat.com/TallSillyDowitcher

So yeah it kinda sets them up for an Air Dodge trap into Sweetspotted Up Smash, from what it looks like
Had to slow it down to 1/4, because it is insanely hard to do, for me at least, and then I speeded it up in Movie Maker due to gfycat's 15 second limit.

In my opinion, it isn't the best option to do out of a dair spike, just really good for style points lol. But if you get a dair spike at that percent or a bit higher the best thing to do is FF up air spike and do a smash attack. Or, something I've been practicing that's just as flashy, is footstool, then fall down with a back air only connecting the first couple hits, which forces them to stand up regularly, and charge a smash attack to kill them. I think it was on reddit. But I like what you got looks pretty sweet

 

[SmashRacer]

If a Greninja player manages to pull that off in a tournament it's going to be the most hype thing ever.

Agreed. The timing is very strict though

In my opinion, this is kind of useless, just good for style points lol. But if you get a dair spike at that percent or a bit higher the best thing to do is FF up air spike and do a smash attack. Or, something I've been practicing that's just as flashy, is footstool, then fall down with a back air only connecting the first couple hits, which forces them to stand up regularly, and charge a smash attack to kill them. I think it was on reddit

Yeah it will add some style points, but an opinion is an opinion.
The Dair spike - Up Air spike to Forward Smash is my favorite combo with Greninja. Haven't been practicing Dair spike to footstool and then first couple of hits of Bair. Doesn't it only work on characters with a big hurtbox?

 

[David Galanos]

Agreed. The timing is very strict though


Yeah it will add some style points, but an opinion is an opinion.
The Dair spike - Up Air spike to Forward Smash is my favorite combo with Greninja. Haven't been practicing Dair spike to footstool and then first couple of hits of Bair. Doesn't it only work on characters with a big hurtbox?

I haven't done the full testing, but when I try to do on against like sheik, I have never been able to do it, but yoshi, or rob, I am. So yeah I think that may be true. and btw i didn't mean to say useless, because it isn't, and it sounded kinda mean lol. I just meant that up air spike -> smash attack is more reliable

 

[SmashRacer]

Don't mind.
The Up Air Spike to Smash Attack is more reliable, because the timing on that is not as strict and is a true combo after all. I spent about 20 minutes of recording trying to get it just right

 

[SilentSpartan]

Good luck with those other games, Marilink. Show 'em what you're all about!

 

[FullMoon]

In today's edition of "Why the f*ck did I do this?":

 

[Jaguar360]

In today's edition of "Why the f*ck did I do this?":

Everyone gets the urge to do that risky d-air every now and then. Glad to see that this is one of the few times where it paid off.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Question for you guys, which you do prefer, shifting shuriken or standard? I like both but find myself relying on shifting more because of it's easy kill set ups. Idk what other mains are feeling right now.

 

[Funkermonster]

When Greninja and Pac-Man amiibos went for preorder again on Monday, there was a Toys R Us in Fort Myers, Florida that was forcing customers to pre-order with credit card only payment, or leave empty handed. Most other stores would just let you pay a dollar, and I gave my mom a dollar bill to get it for me. There was a kid there in line for the store (I wonder why he wasn't in school..) in hopes of getting . He was too young to use apply for a credit card, so they told him to leave and they kicked him out of the store. Poor fella ..

Question for you guys, which you do prefer, shifting shuriken or standard? I like both but find myself relying on shifting more because of it's easy kill set ups. Idk what other mains are feeling right now.

I liked Shifting better at first, but I think I'm starting to go back to default for the slight majority of my matchups, though both moves are still good. The kill combo with Up Smash is nice, but its not as quick as default and doesn't work as well for mid-long range pokes, and it doesn't really do a lot if the opponent shields. The fully charged version has transcendent priority and can go through opposing projectiles, but it does not stop them and you can still get hit. In a tournament set I had a few weeks ago, I tried Shifting against Mega Man and even when I managed to hit him with it, I still got caught with the Metal Blades and Leaf Shield so I couldn't combo him. The uncharged version of shifting can cancel other projectiles out, but its sooooo slow with weak range. I would definitely not take it against other characters with projectiles

To be honest, I don't really find any of Greninja's customs straight-up better than the others, they all seem either preference-based or matchup dependent. I also find that people are sleeping on Stagnant Shuriken, I'm imagining all the traps and walls I could use with it against close-range opponents.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

I liked Shifting better at first, but I think I'm starting to go back to default for the slight majority of my matchups, though both moves are still good. The kill combo with Up Smash is nice, but its not as quick as default and doesn't work as well for mid-long range pokes, and it doesn't really do a lot if the opponent shields. The fully charged version has transcendent priority and can go through opposing projectiles, but it does not stop them and you can still get hit. In a tournament set I had a few weeks ago, I tried Shifting against Mega Man and even when I managed to hit him with it, I still got caught with the Metal Blades and Leaf Shield so I couldn't combo him. The uncharged version of shifting can cancel other projectiles out, but its sooooo slow with weak range. I would definitely not take it against other characters with projectiles

To be honest, I don't really find any of Greninja's customs straight-up better than the others, they all seem either preference-based or matchup dependent. I also find that people are sleeping on Stagnant Shuriken, I'm imagining all the traps and walls I could use with it against close-range opponents.

I have been shifting between them on match ups. I was under the assumption is wasn't a straight upgrade or anything, but rather provides a great tool you can mix into your game. Honestly I like a lot of his customs, I like 3312 sometimes, just instant shadow sneak is funny. Just throwing out my thoughts.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

anybody else get a Greninja amiibo preorder in? Only had to wait on a short line for 30 minutes and they still had 1 preorder left! Also preordered pacman because whatever lol Giving a store 20 preorders is still crazy balls.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

anybody else get a Greninja amiibo preorder in? Only had to wait on a short line for 30 minutes and they still had 1 preorder left! Also preordered pacman because whatever lol Giving a store 20 preorders is still crazy balls.

One of my buddies was able to preorder, but wasn't able to get a second one for me

 

[DrizzyDrew]

One of my buddies was able to preorder, but wasn't able to get a second one for me

Hopefully after it comes out they will restock. Id follow amiiboinquier and others like them on twitter. They tweet soon as the amiibos are in stock online. Got a charizard amiibo ordered in february on amazon uk of all places because of them at the same price as in the americas. Lots of great resources out there.

 

[momochuu]

dumb up tilt hitstun

 

[Ludiloco]

Yeah the hitstun on up tilt is absolutely ridiculous, I can't believe the combo thread doesn't have up tilt -> up air as a pretty much 100% true combo

 

[KERO]

Question for you guys, which you do prefer, shifting shuriken or standard? I like both but find myself relying on shifting more because of it's easy kill set ups. Idk what other mains are feeling right now.

Really glad someone brought this topic up! I actually had a three hour long conversation with Lumpy Gravy about Shifting Shuriken vs Regular Shuriken, going over each character individually. For most characters, as one might expect, we do wanna stick with regular Shuriken just because of how much versatility it has, but there are definitely some characters where Shifting Shuriken is preferred. I have the list we came up with if anyone wants to discuss them.

 

[Lavani]

Though I haven't been playing Greninja seriously for awhile now, I came to like Water Shuriken more than Shifting after using the latter more. The potential followups are great, but the lower projectile speed and loss of full charged WS are usually more useful imo. SS' transcendent priority lets it stuff approaches like Falcon's dash attack that non-full charge WS is just going to clank though.

I'm curious to hear more about Stagnant Shuriken, personally. I know there were a couple advocates for it here and I realized today I've really been sleeping on it. It's probably MU specific but I like the options off it and how well it can cover ledge options (plus if they get snagged by it trying to get off the ledge it's a free fsmash/usmash KO). Perfect pivot utilt is also good for combos off of it.

 

[David Galanos]

Really glad someone brought this topic up! I actually had a three hour long conversation with Lumpy Gravy about Shifting Shuriken vs Regular Shuriken, going over each character individually. For most characters, as one might expect, we do wanna stick with regular Shuriken just because of how much versatility it has, but there are definitely some characters where Shifting Shuriken is preferred. I have the list we came up with if anyone wants to discuss them.

Yeah I would love to see where shifting shuriken would be a better choice. I generally like regular because of it's better speed/range for zoning, and I like fully charged shuriken for combos into fair or shadow sneak or something.

 

[mimgrim]

I generally feel that Shifting, or even Stagnant tbh, fits Greninja's toolkit better overall, right now. If Shuriken, all variants, had less end lag (like I guess 1.0.0 Shurikens) I would be more inclined towards default but as it is the only reason I would want to keep WS is for against projectile UWS can clank against but there are other ways to handle projectiles so I'm not very inclined to use it if customs are an option.

I'm sure I'm the only person who thinks this though.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Really glad someone brought this topic up! I actually had a three hour long conversation with Lumpy Gravy about Shifting Shuriken vs Regular Shuriken, going over each character individually. For most characters, as one might expect, we do wanna stick with regular Shuriken just because of how much versatility it has, but there are definitely some characters where Shifting Shuriken is preferred. I have the list we came up with if anyone wants to discuss them.

I'd love to see it!

 

[SilentSpartan]

When Greninja and Pac-Man amiibos went for preorder again on Monday, there was a Toys R Us in Fort Myers, Florida that was forcing customers to pre-order with credit card only payment, or leave empty handed. Most other stores would just let you pay a dollar, and I gave my mom a dollar bill to get it for me. There was a kid there in line for the store (I wonder why he wasn't in school..) in hopes of getting . He was too young to use apply for a credit card, so they told him to leave and they kicked him out of the store. Poor fella ..

Wait... They actually forced him to leave solely because of his age?

Toys R Us is now up there with GameStop. This is a new low for them.

 

[SmashRacer]

Really glad someone brought this topic up! I actually had a three hour long conversation with Lumpy Gravy about Shifting Shuriken vs Regular Shuriken, going over each character individually. For most characters, as one might expect, we do wanna stick with regular Shuriken just because of how much versatility it has, but there are definitely some characters where Shifting Shuriken is preferred. I have the list we came up with if anyone wants to discuss them.

That would be incredibly useful. Would love to see it

 

[KERO]

Alright, here's what we ended up coming up with. A couple of these we were a little unsure of due to a lack of MU experience, so feel free to contest any you might disagree with!

Regular

Regular

Either (it depends on whether you struggle with kills or not VS Peach more than anything. You aren't going to get much use regardless)

Regular (unless you REALLY struggle with kills)

Regular

Shifting

Regular

Shifting (Exception: Quick Bike) We were fairly unsure on this one. Shifting takes him right off his bike, but regular can better pester him from afar. Regular gets rid of Quick Bike with a tiny bit of charge, so we went with regular in that case, but this one may be more up to personal preference than anything else.

Regular

Regular

Regular (Shifting for stupid early kills if you really want them for some reason)

Regular

Regular

Regular

Shifting

Regular

Regular

Regular

Regular (this was basically a guess. Neither of us have any ZSS experience. The most we could really guess at is regular being able to at least control Paralyzer shots)

Regular

If she has Reflect, regular; otherwise, Shifting (she has too much mobility to really get use out of regular, so at least Shifting gives us a kill option).

Regular

Regular

Regular

Duck Hunt: Regular except against Mega Gunman where Shifting is preferred.

Regular (low aerial mobility allows us to better pester him with regular Shurikens than most aerial characters). Also, if they manage to somehow absorb us, we need regular so as not to get outcamped.

Regular

Either (full charged Shuriken to catch landings or Shifting for a kill option)

Regular

Regular

Regular (except against Thunder Wave). Regular allows us to better control Thunder Jolts.

Regular

Shifting (We absolutely need to kill him early)

Regular

Stagnant (they'll never expect it)

Shifting (This one surprised me, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. It takes away top, gives us the kill option, and we don't often use regular Shuriken in the MU anyway. If you're really accustomed to regular, it's still a perfectly good option here)

Regular

Shifting

Shifting (can potentially drag them out from the ledge, can't really be reflected back at us fast enough, and goes right through Lloyd. On the other hand, full charged regular is nearly useless as a pocketed one is really dangerous, and its slow movement means it can't really surprise Villager while uncharged is full-out stopped by tree and Lloyd)

Shifting (Cuts right through any Pikmin, no matter what they are doing, stopping them completely)

Regular (We have no idea what this character does, so this is more of a guess than anything else)

Regular

Regular

Regular

Regular

Regular (sort of a guess on this one as well)

Regular (Metal Blade control and the fact that we generally outcamp him to begin with. Shifting Shuriken is not a good option in this MU)

Shifty

Regular

Shifting

Regular

Regular

Like I said, regular is generally preferred, but there are some where Shifting is the better option in our opinion. Usually, Shifting is preferred when regular is either near useless, we get outcamped even with regular, or Shifting fulfills some sort of unique purpose in the MU.

 

[David Galanos]

Alright, here's what we ended up coming up with. A couple of these we were a little unsure of due to a lack of MU experience, so feel free to contest any you might disagree with!



Like I said, regular is generally preferred, but there are some where Shifting is the better option in our opinion. Usually, Shifting is preferred when regular is either near useless, we get outcamped even with regular, or Shifting fulfills some sort of unique purpose in the MU.

Thanks! Very useful info. Im curious for reasonings behind falcon and sheik though, I feel like I know why but idk.

Also, would shifting not be good for Pikachu regardless of customs they have? I can never use shuriken to zone against pikachu and some really good pikachus who are a lot better than me tell me that they can just quick attack through or over it if I try to. So, wouldn't it be better to just give us an extra kill option to fulfill better use of neutral b?

 

[KERO]

Thanks! Very useful info. Im curious for reasonings behind falcon and sheik though, I feel like I know why but idk.

Also, would shifting not be good for Pikachu regardless of customs they have? I can never use shuriken to zone against pikachu and some really good pikachus who are a lot better than me tell me that they can just quick attack through or over it if I try to. So, wouldn't it be better to just give us an extra kill option to fulfill better use of neutral b?

Falcon already doesn't mind regular very much. He can Falcon Kick through it, DA through it, or just straight up shield it and keep running. Catching his landings with regular is fairly difficult as well given how fast he falls. Usually, if we hit him with Shuriken, it doesn't end up doing much anyway, and the only real advantage regular has over him is that a full charged one can potentially lead to a grab, but we also have to take into account how late Falcon dies from Uthrow and the fact that he kills Greninja stupid early. Thus, I feel having that alternate kill option is worth the trade-off.

Shifting for Sheik is an absolute necessity in the MU imo. She can literally Bouncing Fish over the entirety of regular Shuriken for a punish anyway, and needles destroy most uncharged varieties while still hitting Greninja. Full Charge isn't very appealing either since Sheik's landing are nearly impossible to punish, and we absolutely cannot use a move that takes that long to pull off. While Sheik can still Bouncing Fish over Shifting, it's much harder to react to because of its speed (you basically need to make a prediction that Greninja going to use it) even in spite of the added end lag, and much more importantly, needles don't affect it. This means that we effectively outcamp Sheik as she takes a lot more hitstun from Shifting than we do her needles (Until about 120% at least), and if she's at a high percent and we at low percent, using Needles can potentially result in her getting hit by Shifting (end lag on needles is pretty bad) and then Usmash as needles don't hold us long. In a MU where Sheik takes forever to kill us, the potential to get a kill at 80% is hugely beneficial for us.

As for Pikachu, from what I've played against him, he can outcamp us if we're unable to control Tjolt with regular Shuriken. We don't necessarily use Shuriken to attack Pika since he can QA through it, but we can at least control his strong projectile game with it. Otherwise, with Shifting, Pikachu can effectively camp us out really badly. At least, that's my take on it. Not to mention the added end lag on Shifting would allow him to better punish it with QA or something. If Pikachu was forced to be ground during Tjolt like Sheik, I could see Shifting being better, but since he's in the air so much, getting Shifting to hit would be really difficult (would be a neat punish on Bair, though, if you space it).

 

[Lavani]

As for Pikachu, from what I've played against him, he can outcamp us if we're unable to control Tjolt with regular Shuriken. We don't necessarily use Shuriken to attack Pika since he can QA through it, but we can at least control his strong projectile game with it. Otherwise, with Shifting, Pikachu can effectively camp us out really badly. At least, that's my take on it. Not to mention the added end lag on Shifting would allow him to better punish it with QA or something. If Pikachu was forced to be ground during Tjolt like Sheik, I could see Shifting being better, but since he's in the air so much, getting Shifting to hit would be really difficult (would be a neat punish on Bair, though, if you space it).

What would you think about Stagnant Shuriken for this MU? It eats tjolts and doesn't vanish when clanking them, and places a big lingering hitbox that dissuades Pika from reckless QA usage.

 

[KERO]

What would you think about Stagnant Shuriken for this MU? It eats tjolts and doesn't vanish when clanking them, and places a big lingering hitbox that dissuades Pika from reckless QA usage.

Hmm... I could definitely see it working. Unfortunately, I am fairly unfamiliar with it. Does it have more end lag than regular? I think it could be an interesting approach option vs Pika (would basically allow us to catch Pika's landings fantastically, giving us a free Smash or grab).

 

[FullMoon]

I don't really think Shifting Shuriken is bad against Megaman because I've played against a custom Mega in a tournament once with it and it worked out really well for me. The shurikens range and transcedent priority really help hit Megaman out of his pellet spamming and while it does get rid of Metal Blade, I never really felt they were too much of an issue to get around.

I also think Shifting is better against Pac-Man because that way his Hydrant won't block our projectile.

 

[David Galanos]

The last time I remember using stagnant shuriken it was on the 3ds and I couldn't get a grab or anything after I think. I don't think it's all that great

I need to start using this shifting shuriken though, I have before but I usually end up focusing on fishing for a follow up with it too much.

I understand now for captain falcon and sheik, I knew reg shuriken was already bad against sheik I was just curious of the benefits of the custom shuriken

 

[Lavani]

The last time I remember using stagnant shuriken it was on the 3ds and I couldn't get a grab or anything after I think. I don't think it's all that great

Pardon the shoddy camerawork, but here's some examples of things you can do off it:

The possible followups vary by character though; characters that are popped up more (floaties, mainly) won't be susceptible to grab/dash attack but will in turn be able to be hit by things like usmash.

 

[David Galanos]

Oh ok, nice. I would still probably prefer one of the others but I may mess with it against pika

 

[FullMoon]

Maaan I love the fact that Smash gave Greninja more exposure because now there's awesome fanart around like the one in my new avatar.

 

[KERO]

(Short post, gotta get to bed for tourney tomorrow). I never found Pac-Man's hydrant an issue. Moment you see it come out, you can pretty easily get rid of it with Fsmash or Fair since Pac Man is put in a somewhat awkward position afterward. Also gives us essentially a free approach to mid-range. But hey, if you prefer Shifting for the MU, more power to you.

 

[Funkermonster]

As a player of both, I disagree that Greninja outcamps MegaMan but after using Shifting Shuriken against him a couple times I've fallen out of love with it for the MU and now prefer default. I've had success with it against Marth, Yoshi, and. Shulk though.

*yawns* Gonna get to sleep for my tourney too. *Snores*

 

[FullMoon]

Reposting this from the Zelda social because it's silly:

Today in Anther's Ladder with customs:

Guy:Are you using equipment?
Me: Nope
Guy:Greninja's moves shouldn't be that fast.
Me: They always were like this lol
Guy: It's impossible for me to move.
Guy: His moves aren't like that.
Me: Here I'll give you proof
Guy: How?
Me: With a picture of my custom sets
Me: http://imgur.com/zX4P0jH
Me: Ta-da
Me: No equipment
Guy:There are customs below that.
Me: http://imgur.com/LKGhx57 Nice try
Guy: Damn Greninja and YOUR ****ING SPEED.
Me: Yeah, that's a ninja for you =V

The guy played Lucario by the way.

 

[David Galanos]

Lol that's pretty funny. I've seen people say Greninja is brain dead and others say he's top tier Lolol.

 

[mimgrim]

;Greninja's move aren't even that fast in terms of start-up lag, he does have have low end-lag on many moves (or low landing lag for aerials with more ending-lag) except for Shuriken [;-;].

 

[FullMoon]

2000 posts whoooooo

I'll celebrate by finally making a signature.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Everyone's here discussing the shifting shuriken and I can't see to get the custom .

On another note, do you guys have your c-stick set to tilt to deal with the momentum problem when c-stick is set to smash? Would the retreating Fair work better this way?

 

[Coffee™]

Alright, here's what we ended up coming up with. A couple of these we were a little unsure of due to a lack of MU experience, so feel free to contest any you might disagree with!

I disagree with a few of them. WIll try to comment a bit more when it's not so late.

I actually made a list a while ago with the optimal custom loadouts vs each character. I wanted to go into detail explaining the choices but I never got around to it. I'll post it in the custom thread. I made it a while ago though so I'm sure a few this are amiss.

Like I said, regular is generally preferred, but there are some where Shifting is the better option in our opinion. Usually, Shifting is preferred when regular is either near useless, we get outcamped even with regular, or Shifting fulfills some sort of unique purpose in the MU.

Stop sleeping on Stagnant!

I generally feel that Shifting, or even Stagnant tbh, fits Greninja's toolkit better overall, right now. If Shuriken, all variants, had less end lag (like I guess 1.0.0 Shurikens) I would be more inclined towards default but as it is the only reason I would want to keep WS is for against projectile UWS can clank against but there are other ways to handle projectiles so I'm not very inclined to use it if customs are an option.

I'm sure I'm the only person who thinks this though.

I've brought this up a while back but it was generally overlooked. I feel like Shifting was always overrated tbh. Stagnant and Default just fit his kit better overall.

Falcon already doesn't mind regular very much. He can Falcon Kick through it, DA through it, or just straight up shield it and keep running. Catching his landings with regular is fairly difficult as well given how fast he falls. Usually, if we hit him with Shuriken, it doesn't end up doing much anyway, and the only real advantage regular has over him is that a full charged one can potentially lead to a grab, but we also have to take into account how late Falcon dies from Uthrow and the fact that he kills Greninja stupid early. Thus, I feel having that alternate kill option is worth the trade-off

Stagnant is the best option vs Falcon as it limits his approaches severely and can gimp his recovery basically for free if he's forced to recover low. I think Shifting is actually the worst here, literally for the same reasons you listed WS to be bad. It has the advantage of leading to kills/damage on occasion but those options are few and far between considering you generally have to catch a landing with Shifting in this matchup to effectively use it. The majority of the time you hit Falcon with a fully charged shifting you probably would have also landed a fully charged WS.

Shifting for Sheik is an absolute necessity in the MU imo. She can literally Bouncing Fish over the entirety of regular Shuriken for a punish anyway, and needles destroy most uncharged varieties while still hitting Greninja. Full Charge isn't very appealing either since Sheik's landing are nearly impossible to punish, and we absolutely cannot use a move that takes that long to pull off. While Sheik can still Bouncing Fish over Shifting, it's much harder to react to because of its speed (you basically need to make a prediction that Greninja going to use it) even in spite of the added end lag, and much more importantly, needles don't affect it. This means that we effectively outcamp Sheik as she takes a lot more hitstun from Shifting than we do her needles (Until about 120% at least), and if she's at a high percent and we at low percent, using Needles can potentially result in her getting hit by Shifting (end lag on needles is pretty bad) and then Usmash as needles don't hold us long. In a MU where Sheik takes forever to kill us, the potential to get a kill at 80% is hugely beneficial for us.

I haven't experimented in this matchup much with Shifting, but I can't realistically see it being effective against Shiek if Greninja already has trouble landing default uncharged Shurikens. Shurikens are punishable on reaction by needles. If they see you charging it at any point you can get hit by a set of em'. Also if you do get hit then you aren't following up that Shifting Shuriken if it traded either. I haven't tested Stagnant here much either but it's inherent defensive qualities lead me to believe it's probably the best option here. Being able to consistently defend Shiek's spaced Fairs and Nairs with it will probably be invaluable in the matchup.