Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Funkermonster]

Over 1,000 posts, boo yah! I'm a Smash Lord now, gonna celebrate by changing my avatar to one of my favorite characters of anime, maybe my signature too! Anyhoo..

Tourney yesterday and placed 7th out of 43#, once again using Mega Man forr the majority of it since I didn't have as much confidence with anyone else. I didn't lose to all that many people using Greninja but got beaten bad by a , , and a and I was a little disappointed with that; some matchups I gotta learn better and more fundamentals I need to work on.. Still having a bit of an off day with this character, and the more I play him I feel he gets even harder and harder to play and I don't think I'm improving all that fast.

But I did win a $5 money match with a using Snarling Aura Sphere (a character I normally hate fighting and have never seen that custom until now), so it wasn't a total loss. My mom also confiscated my game yet AGAIN and I ddn't have any time to practice last week, so that might have something to do with it to. And then again, aside from and occasionally , I don't consider any of my other characters (including pockets) very easy to use either : , , , , , , , , , , , and . I've also began to eye ZSS too a little bit and am having a bit of fun with her, and I am told she too has a highe than normal learnng curve. Somehow, I hooked myself onto most of technically demanding characters in the game.

 

[KERO]

I won't argue against Falcon due to my own lack of experience against him, but I will state that I feel extremely strongly about Shifting being better in the MU against Sheik than any Shuriken variation (I could honestly see Stagnant being better against Falcon the more I think about it anyway, especially since, as Lavani showed, it can also lead into kill moves).

The idea of Shifting is to punish Sheik for using Needles. There have been a multitude of times against Sheiks where I would throw Shifting to bait them into needles, take the needles, see the shuriken punish their end lag, and then kill them with Usmash. The biggest reason uncharged shurikens are so hard to land against Sheik is that needles go through them, which is entirely untrue for Shifting. Also, Shifting gives a ton more reward for one hit than uncharged Shuriken can, and I can't stress enough how important it is to establish the stock lead on Sheik for Greninja (our most reliable kill move on Sheik is Uthrow imo). Stagnant does seem an interesting proposition, though, since it apparently gets rid of projectiles and, as you said, acts as a punish for Sheik's approach options, although I have my doubts on its damage output since she can still punish it with an Fair even if she also takes damage (correct me if I'm wrong here), preventing us from getting a follow-up.

Personally, as someone who played Olimar in Brawl and heavily enjoys defensive characters, it's extremely difficult for me to play a character without a projectile, so that's why Stagnant never seemed an attractive choice to me, but I can't really let my own personal biases get in the way of stuff like this, so I definitely will try and experiment with it when I can.

The biggest problem I have with Shifting is that, to me, it stands out as not really fitting with the rest of Greninja's tool kit with its higher end lag. i.e., it feels like too much of a commitment compared to most of Greninja's moves. Might just be my personal gripe with it, though, Idk.

I think it'd be a fantastic idea to revive the custom move thread, though (Edit: Oh, you did, good stuff). I've never really been a big fan of any customs besides Shifting (and Explosion Attack for the Greninja MU), so it'd be interesting to see what I've been missing out on.

 

[David Galanos]

I've thought this for a long time and I still think it's true but I wanted to ask everyone else. Is there more end lag on throws (Up throw in particular) against the big characters? Against Bowser specifically I can almost never get up throw up air and I can just feel more end lag on it after the throw.

Sorry if this is known already I just wanna make sure I'm not going insane

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

Hey, is there someone up for some dittos ?

 

[FullMoon]

Shifting. Also, Shifting gives a ton more reward for one hit than uncharged Shuriken can, and I can't stress enough how important it is to establish the stock lead on Sheik for Greninja (our most reliable kill move on Sheik is Uthrow imo).

Yeah getting a lead on Sheik is really important. The moment we get a stock lead we're halfway done with winning because Sheik kinda breaks when she loses the lead. We have to estabilish a lead early on to have a better chance of winning. I've been practicing against Sheik a lot lately and I don't really find the MU to be that bad anymore.

 

[Jaguar360]

Over 1,000 posts, boo yah! I'm a Smash Lord now, gonna celebrate by changing my avatar to one of my favorite characters of anime, maybe my signature too! Anyhoo..

Tourney yesterday and placed 7th out of 43#, once again using Mega Man forr the majority of it since I didn't have as much confidence with anyone else. I didn't lose to all that many people using Greninja but got beaten bad by a , , and a and I was a little disappointed with that; some matchups I gotta learn better and more fundamentals I need to work on.. Still having a bit of an off day with this character, and the more I play him I feel he gets even harder and harder to play and I don't think I'm improving all that fast.

But I did win a $5 money match with a using Snarling Aura Sphere (a character I normally hate fighting and have never seen that custom until now), so it wasn't a total loss. My mom also confiscated my game yet AGAIN and I ddn't have any time to practice last week, so that might have something to do with it to. And then again, aside from and occasionally , I don't consider any of my other characters (including pockets) very easy to use either : , , , , , , , , , , , and . I've also began to eye ZSS too a little bit and am having a bit of fun with her, and I am told she too has a highe than normal learnng curve. Somehow, I hooked myself onto most of technically demanding characters in the game.

My game has also been confiscated :/ Good job on the tournament though, those results don't seem bad. I've also been feeling a bit off with Greninja until recently at least. The other day I got completely walled by a Rosalina on For Glory who was abusing her neutral B and I wasn't really winning much in other matches because I kept running into attacks. The last time I played though, I did a lot better. Maybe you should just give it some time I guess?

 

[mimgrim]

I've brought this up a while back but it was generally overlooked. I feel like Shifting was always overrated tbh. Stagnant and Default just fit his kit better overall.

I, personally, feel it is the default one being overrated, in its current iteration, and think it is more of a case of familiarity then anything else. I see default, at its core, as a long range harassment poking/zoning tool, however, with the end lag it has I don't see it as doing its job as effectively as it should be and doesn't really put enough pressure onto the opponent for what it is suppose to be, thus I think it only fits ok with Greninja's toolkit currently and why I find Shifting and Stagnant to compliment him better, if the end lag ever gets reverted you will see me change my tune but currently I think default is honestly overrated.

Whereas Shifting and Stagnate, while, like default, don't really apply that much pressure either, serve as a better use as trap moves, in different ways, with special properties to set them apart from Default more, and in the current iteration of Shuriken they fit his overall toolkit better as a result imo, and can confirm into stuff more reliably then default ever could (requires it to be fully charge, which should only, realistically speaking, only ever happen when the opponent is off stage).

But, again, I know I am def in the minority here.

 

[Kite0692]

Edge (Sheik/Diddy) just kicked aMSa's ass lmao

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

On another note, do you guys have your c-stick set to tilt to deal with the momentum problem when c-stick is set to smash? Would the retreating Fair work better this way?

Anyone have an opinion?

 

[Coffee™]

I, personally, feel it is the default one being overrated, in its current iteration, and think it is more of a case of familiarity then anything else. I see default, at its core, as a long range harassment poking/zoning tool, however, with the end lag it has I don't see it as doing its job as effectively as it should be and doesn't really put enough pressure onto the opponent for what it is suppose to be, thus I think it only fits ok with Greninja's toolkit currently and why I find Shifting and Stagnant to compliment him better, if the end lag ever gets reverted you will see me change my tune but currently I think default is honestly overrated.

Whereas Shifting and Stagnate, while, like default, don't really apply that much pressure either, serve as a better use as trap moves, in different ways, with special properties to set them apart from Default more, and in the current iteration of Shuriken they fit his overall toolkit better as a result imo, and can confirm into stuff more reliably then default ever could (requires it to be fully charge, which should only, realistically speaking, only ever happen when the opponent is off stage).

But, again, I know I am def in the minority here.

I agree for the most part. Shifting is a better move in general for Greninja if you look strictly at the moves properties. However, it's additional end lag is what causes the move to overall be less efficient at it's ideal job in comparison to the default. Shifting wants to be used offensively but the lag on it just makes that not a great option the majority of the time.

 

[wizardto1]

Is it just me or Greninja's up smash doesn't connect properly on the platforms of Battlefield? The opponents always get out of the first hit.


I wish I can go to tournaments but nobody around seems to play competitively here. Plus I can't drive.

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah he can't up smash when the opponent is on the platforms. It does the first of the up smash which is a spike that does about 5%. In some cases up smash has connected for me though, I think mostly when they were close to the sides

 

[FullMoon]

Low ceiling with rage on a platform results in some silly stuff

 

[Jaguar360]

That reminds me that Techei/Teki got some really nice U-air kills on Halberd yesterday at S@X. He also beat both GimR and Average Joe, though Avg. Joe knocked him out of Losers Finals or Semis later on.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

Hey, do you have some kind of special thread on this board to organize some dittos ? I only know 1-2 good greninjas and I'm finding these dittos really cool to play. So i was wondering where i could find some more to fight.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, do you have some kind of special thread on this board to organize some dittos ? I only know 1-2 good greninjas and I'm finding these dittos really cool to play. So i was wondering where i could find some more to fight.

Join our Skype group, people are willing to play most of the time over there.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

Oh, that's cool. And how could I join it ?

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, that's cool. And how could I join it ?

PM me your Skype name and I'll add you to it.

 

[SilentSpartan]

Maybe someone already said this already and I didn't see it, but how most smash players in general treat Greninja pisses me off a bit.

People make jokes about how Greninja is constantly getting nerfed, and it turns players off from playing him. I understand that. But what a lot of people fail to mention is that he hasn't been nerfed since the Wii U version came out(unless I'm an ignorant jerk and don't realize it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.). People don't realize exactly how far dedication to a character goes in making that character more effective. Especially tier whores.

Oh, Diddy no longer has the hoo hah? Better switch my main.

 

[mimgrim]

I really hate the term tier whores/*******/whatever the **** they get called. There's nothing with people switching mains as their characters get changed or just switching to the next best character (if the best character changed) every time a new patch comes along is a perfectly valid strategy and shouldn't be looked down upon. Just because you a character specialist doesn't mean you have any moral high ground over people with a different goal in mind.

And I believe that, technically, Greninja has received a nerf every patch since the Wii-U release in terms of bugfixes taking away certain, well, bugs/glitches on Shadow Sneak. Nothing really major, but still they are technically nerfs.

So jokes are made about him getting a nerf every patch. W/e. Joke is a joke and shouldn't really bother you. And I seriously doubt it just these jokes scaring new players away from him. Probs has more to do with his high learning curve compared to many other characters.

 

[Pikmin-ism42]

I've been encountering an odd problem with Greninja, on a lot of occasions, when trying to recover using his up-special, sometimes Greninja decides to pull off a Shadow Sneak instead. This also happens to my brothers whom I play Smash Bros. with. Has anyone else been encountering this problem?

 

[FullMoon]

You're probably just not inputing the direction correctly =V

 

[David Galanos]

Lol throw back to the early 3ds days. It was a common way to sd, especially if you're still actually 3ds. Just make sure you are pointing all the way up and then immediately going a direction

 

[mimgrim]

To be fair, I think Shadow Sneak has a rather high sensitivity for being inputted. Pretty much with Hydro Pump you want to be pushing straight up, I think maybe even diagonal left/right up -> Special button results in Shadow Sneak so you need to start out straight up and then very quickly input your other direction if you want to start in a direction that isn't just up.

 

[SilentSpartan]

I really hate the term tier *****s/*****es/whatever the **** they get called. There's nothing with people switching mains as their characters get changed or just switching to the next best character (if the best character changed) every time a new patch comes along is a perfectly valid strategy and shouldn't be looked down upon. Just because you a character specialist doesn't mean you have any moral high ground over people with a different goal in mind.

And I believe that, technically, Greninja has received a nerf every patch since the Wii-U release in terms of bugfixes taking away certain, well, bugs/glitches on Shadow Sneak. Nothing really major, but still they are technically nerfs.

So jokes are made about him getting a nerf every patch. W/e. Joke is a joke and shouldn't really bother you. And I seriously doubt it just these jokes scaring new players away from him. Probs has more to do with his high learning curve compared to many other characters.

Maybe tier whores is innappropriate, didn't really mean it to be that harsh anyway. Apologies if it came across that way. My point was that it's like people don't know what dedication is, especially those who have gotten into the competitive scene recently like me. I may be new compared to those who have played the likes of Melee, Project M, and even Brawl for a while now. But I feel like so many characters have so much potential, but people skip out on players they want to play because they don't realize exactly how ever-shifting the tier lists are, especially when the meta is so young. It's like they look at the tier list and say, "Hey, Diddy and Sheik are at the top. Guess if I want to play competitively, I have to choose between those characters." I played a Marth and Link main the other day, got a few matches in to test out how to pit my Mario against them. And I even switched back to my Greninja and realized that it wasn't just my lesser Mario play, and that the guy was simply a beast with the characters he wanted to learn about. And as for Greninja's learning curve, that was kind of the point of my last post.

I feel like tiers have always been a controversial topic, whether you're talking as a casual or competitive. It's easy to get pissed just by reading the word, and to assume anyone who mentions them is just an ass. But I'm tired of being scared about it. I admit it, I've always hated tier lists. I'll be the first to tell you. As a simple casual player of Brawl, I always thought that they were just ways for more elitist competitive players to insult players who used lesser characters. Obviously, I've done my research and gained more experience in Sm4sh since then. But now, I hate them for an entirely different reason.

It's a hard thing to describe, why I feel the way that I do. I guess, simply put, I feel they serve as a mental blockade of sorts to new players. And I feel like I'm alone in thinking that, but at the same time, something is keeping me from putting aside the thought, which I've tried to do on multiple occasions.

I've personally done my best to turn away any thought that I've hit a blockade in skill, for example. But I'm told by a few people I know that they've decided to give up on Sm4sh competitively for that exact reason. I feel like tier lists are similiar in the fact that it discourages newer players, making them feel like their options are a lot more limited than they actually are. This also relates to the whole Greninja thing, come to think of it. One of those people was thinking of maining Greninja, like I decided to do. But he had heard of how many times Greninja was nerfed, and decided not to. His exact words were, "Maining Greninja sounds like a bad idea. If he's just going to lose some ability I found to be useful, then what's the point of trying?"

He decided to main Diddy Kong instead. Now, he wasn't a fan of the Donkey Kong series. But because it was his decision, I didn't really think much of it. But once Diddy was nerfed in the latest patch, he just told me he felt he wasn't getting anywhere, and that because of that he felt it was time to move on.

 

[mimgrim]

Maybe tier *****s is innappropriate, didn't really mean it to be that harsh anyway. Apologies if it came across that way. My point was that it's like people don't know what dedication is, especially those who have gotten into the competitive scene recently like me. I may be new compared to those who have played the likes of Melee, Project M, and even Brawl for a while now. But I feel like so many characters have so much potential, but people skip out on players they want to play because they don't realize exactly how ever-shifting the tier lists are, especially when the meta is so young. It's like they look at the tier list and say, "Hey, Diddy and Sheik are at the top. Guess if I want to play competitively, I have to choose between those characters." I played a Marth and Link main the other day, got a few matches in to test out how to pit my Mario against them. And I even switched back to my Greninja and realized that it wasn't just my lesser Mario play, and that the guy was simply a beast with the characters he wanted to learn about. And as for Greninja's learning curve, that was kind of the point of my last post.

Different strokes for different folks.

Some people are in it for playing to win with the easiest time possible. Logic dictates the best way to go about this is to pick a popular character the is considered, by most, to be one of the best characters in the game due to those characters having more development to them in general. This is a perfectly viable way to play any competitive game. And if it is an ever changing game then it stands to reason that what gets considered to be the best will change over time as well resulting in people with a certain mindset to change what they play.

There is nothing wrong with.

And great for the guy who plays Marth/Link. That's his choice and he obviously has a different mindset/goal in mind from the above. But there is no moral high ground in his mindset/goal and is just an equally valid way to approach the game.

I feel like tiers have always been a controversial topic, whether you're talking as a casual or competitive. It's easy to get pissed just by reading the word, and to assume anyone who mentions them is just an ***. But I'm tired of being scared about it. I admit it, I've always hated tier lists. I'll be the first to tell you. As a simple casual player of Brawl, I always thought that they were just ways for more elitist competitive players to insult players who used lesser characters. Obviously, I've done my research and gained more experience in Sm4sh since then. But now, I hate them for an entirely different reason.

They are only a controversial topic, in the context of whether they actually exist/should exist/whatever, to the ignorant.

But they do exist and they DO matter.

Someone wants to main a low tier character at a competitive level and become the absolute best with said low tier character? That's great! More power to them! but they need to accept the fact that they are putting themselves at a disadvantage when they pick said character. It is a simple truth. But it is a no less wrong way to play then any other way.

Why play Greninja when I could playing someone like Sheik or Pikachu or some other top tier character that arguably does what Greninja does better? Simple. I find Greninja funner to play and that he just overall feels better to play. Nothing wrong with that but I'm quite aware that my character is inferior to others in one way or another.

It's a hard thing to describe, why I feel the way that I do. I guess, simply put, I feel they serve as a mental blockade of sorts to new players. And I feel like I'm alone in thinking that, but at the same time, something is keeping me from putting aside the thought, which I've tried to do on multiple occasions.

It's not tiers that create this so called "mental block", that has solely to do with a player's mindset. I've seen plenty of newer players play random X mid-low tier character over random Y high or top tier character simply because they liked the character and I've seen the opposite because they wanted a better chance of winning. It just depends on a player's mindset. Nothing else.

I've personally done my best to turn away any thought that I've hit a blockade in skill, for example. But I'm told by a few people I know that they've decided to give up on Sm4sh competitively for that exact reason.

That's good for you and too bad for them.

I feel like tier lists are similiar in the fact that it discourages newer players, making them feel like their options are a lot more limited than they actually are. This also relates to the whole Greninja thing, come to think of it. One of those people was thinking of maining Greninja, like I decided to do. But he had heard of how many times Greninja was nerfed, and decided not to. His exact words were, "Maining Greninja sounds like a bad idea. If he's just going to lose some ability I found to be useful, then what's the point of trying?"

Tier list don't equal patches.

He decided to main Diddy Kong instead. Now, he wasn't a fan of the Donkey Kong series. But because it was his decision, I didn't really think much of it. But once Diddy was nerfed in the latest patch, he just told me he felt he wasn't getting anywhere, and that because of that he felt it was time to move on.

That's his decision and he has every right to do that. It is what it is.

 

[momochuu]

reason to play greninja: damage

 

[Gunla]

Lol throw back to the early 3ds days. It was a common way to sd, especially if you're still actually 3ds. Just make sure you are pointing all the way up and then immediately going a direction

I'd say it's more of an adjustment issue at first. It's akin to easing off rolling or a really bad playstyle habit in which you'll occasionally mess up, but you'll slowly reduce that.

I say that because I actually am a 3DS guy. Most SD's are from Hydro Pumping into the wall now.

 

[FullMoon]

reason to play greninja: damage

Reason 2: Dat mobility.

 

[David Galanos]

Reason 3: He's a ninja frog

 

[SmashRacer]

Reason 4: Many kill setups

 

[Gunla]

Reason 5: Memes?

 

[Lavani]

Most SD's are from Hydro Pumping into the wall now.

oh my god I feel your pain, this never used to happen to me but after coming back to Greninja after not playing him for a few months I find myself SDing like this CONSTANTLY.

I guess playing characters that didn't have to worry about that spoiled me

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Reason 5: Memes?

 

[David Galanos]

Better nerf Greninja

 

[Sneak Frog]

I haven't been lurking much lately, but the one day I decide to check up on this thread I am greeted with memes.

Time to go into hiding once more.

 

[SilentSpartan]

I say that because I actually am a 3DS guy. Most SD's are from Hydro Pumping into the wall now.

Ugh. I hate that. I sometimes try to hydro pump to the ledge from the side, only to bounce off it instead. Luckily it's a rare occurence, but it's still infuriating. Especially when it happens while you're at a low percentage.

 

[Snackss]

Getting double up air KO's on Delfino and Town and City is fun. But not Halberd. I hate Halberd.

 

[redfeatherraven]

'lo again.

I found a thing I thought y'all might appreciate.

http://demsgoodreadin.blogspot.com/2007/12/great-moments-in-comics-history-no-4.html

Godspeed.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I haven't been lurking much lately, but the one day I decide to check up on this thread I am greeted with memes.

Time to go into hiding once more.

Noooo. Sneak frog come baaaack.