Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Snackss]

People still think Greninja is basically Sheik but worse. Don't think they have ever even played the frog.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

So what's going on?

 

[momochuu]

I did a thing.

 

[FullMoon]

Man Greninja is freaking insane in this game.

 

[momochuu]

Man Greninja is freaking insane in this game.

damage ◥θ┴θ◤

 

[FullMoon]

damage ◥θ┴θ◤

... I just realized that's supposed to be a Greninja emoticon lol.

 

[Jaguar360]

I did a thing.

Dem footstool and N-air combos O_O

360th subscriber btw ◥θ┴θ◤

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I did a thing.

Amazingly awesome job!
senpaiiii
queeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[momochuu]

thank you ◥θ┴θ◤

 

[SmashRacer]

I did a thing.

Those combos were insane. Amazing work
All those footstool combos. Greninja be stylin'

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's recovery is so godlike.

 

[carlos11]

Does anyone else ever play on v1.0.3 when the game was perfect and Greninja was the best character in the game?

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja was never the best character in the game.

1.0.3 Rosalina and Sheik existed where the latter didn't have trouble killing because Bouncing Fish was ridiculous and Rosalina's everything was dumb.

1.0.3 was far from perfect

 

[SmashRacer]

@ FullMoon congrats on being the best Greninja main on Anther's Ladder. Keep it up

 

[carlos11]

I wouldn't mind having the old Rosalina back if we got Greninja back as well. I'm just saying this because one can't help but feel dismayed at the thought of what could've been when playing as v1.0.3 Greninja now, after months of playing as the new Greninja.

 

[David Galanos]

I got 4th this weekend at a tournament with a good deal of people, behind Player ~1, DRN, and someone else , pretty cool with that I guess, but lost to Mario and kinda let him get in my head when it was obvious what he was doing. I started doing the stupid side b cancel thing and would just get regrabbed and take a bunch of percent. I need to make it a habit to DI instead of doing that. He kept throwing fire balls and then throwing out a down air and I didn't wanna approach after that.

What's up with the Mario mu is it even or slightly in someone's favor? I've always thought mario was a pretty weird and annoying matchup cause of his fast ariels and smash attacks with little lag and fireballs can be pestering

 

[FullMoon]

I always felt Mario was an even MU so...

Up-tilt chains are seriously the most annoying thing in the game for me. It makes playing against Mario, Kirby, etc a lot more agravating than it needs to be.

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah I never really knew I used to think mario was a bad mu then started to think it was even or in our favor but I think even is best.

I hate them too, and it's so tempting to side b out now when 8-9/10 it results in a regrab or punish.

 

[Spirst]

Trying to shadow sneak hitstun cancel has usually resulted in me getting punished even more because of the endlag frames coupled with the low commitment of the utilts that chain. It really is frustrating because of how easy damage it is.

Mario has felt pretty even to me. His frame data is better and his mobility is good (though Greninja's mobility is better) but he seems to have a range issue and it shows when trying to get past spaced fairs. Not to mention the offstage presence he has vs Greninja's offstage presence seems pretty favorable for the latter. Not sure who kills better but I'm almost certain Greninja has the superior setups.

 

[Snackss]

Rosalina was disgusting. I wish Water Shuriken hadn't been nerfed so badly, you need to be absolutely on-point at all times to make good use of it now. And nerfing forward air's launching power was stupid, it doesn't even KO until nearly 120% at the edge now.

But Greninja was never top 5. People just overestimated him because they saw a fast character and immediately assumed that, as with previous games, he would be top tier, I guess? And his up smash was bonkers.

 

[FullMoon]

The nerf to F-Air does allow it to combo into things at low %s though so it's a trade-off.

 

[momochuu]

I actually do think Greninja was top 5 in vanilla smash 4. Imagine if people were doing the combos he can do now when he had the tools he had back then.

 

[Neo Zero]

I did a thing.

That video was quite inspiring and well made, and it's given me ideas I want to try to incorporate into my own game. A truly enjoyable watch.

 

[momochuu]

That video was quite inspiring and well made, and it's given me ideas I want to try to incorporate into my own game. A truly enjoyable watch.

glad you liked it

 

[David Galanos]

Does anyone have any issues with choking in a match, and finishing it off? I was playing someone yesterday, I was about to 3 stock him, I had 150 w/ 3 stocks and he had 90 with 1 stock. I was confident and thought I had it in the bag. Then I lose the stock to a throw (wario btw), then get stage spiked at 30%, then Im scared, and I am playing scared. He is a defensive player and I was fishing for the kill and was just playing so bad and it caused me lose to a fart later on. I don't understand how I could be beating someone badly and lose, it made me really mad too.

This seems to be a reoccurring theme, where I am dominantly taking games but when it comes down to me in danger of losing the set I may choke. Happened in a tournament once where all I had to do was finish him off but got scared.
How do I avoid letting people come back cause I get scared? I hate losing a lot and in fear of losing a serious set or tournament match knowing I will not be happy I play scared which causes me to play terrible, I just wanna not let this happen again

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Same thing happens to me, more so on certain days. The mentality that helps for me is keeping the slick Greninja play going, though like you, I get scared and lose it.

 

[David Galanos]

It really makes me lose my mind, when this happened I had never seen myself so enraged, like it was pretty bad. I hate getting mad too I like to enjoy myself which is why I am considering never doing ranked matches or going to tournaments, but if I don't go to tournaments I'll lose motivation to play.

I'm just tired of losing because of something wrong with my mind in certain senerios. I consider myself a pretty good player when this doesn't happen, I place well at events, beat higher level players, but then my mindset gets out of whack so I guess that means I'm really not a good player, since mindset is so big in smash. I don't know how to control it, I have been able to recover from devastating sds and bring it back, and stuff, like in tournament I had 20% and they had 100% and I sd'd (dang up b hit the ledge LOL) and I was about to rush in but I calmed down and stayed patient and was able to win the set, but why am I not able to calm down and win when I actually have a strong lead. How do I control my mindset when I am in favor to win and just have to finish the job. I don't understand and it's causing struggles with anger and progression in smash

 

[Snackss]

It's just part of Greninja I think. He doesn't have any safe KO options and is one of the few characters who doesn't have back air as a KO move. If you don't have any momentum it gets much harder to get a KO.

 

[David Galanos]

It's just part of Greninja I think. He doesn't have any safe KO options and is one of the few characters who doesn't have back air as a KO move. If you don't have any momentum it gets much harder to get a KO.

Yeah that is true, cause although he has many kill options, some of them you can't force or if you do force it you can get punished or potentially die. Sometimes it just comes down to an up throw kill.

I still think this is more of a mindset problem because I mean I usually don't see myself struggling for a kill that often.
Now that I think of it the times that this has happened, the person was playing super safe and defensive. Like one time I had a strong lead against a sheik and they were not approaching whatsoever and shooting needles and I lost to an f smash at the ledge. Then this time the wario was literally waiting for me to approach. I feel like Greninja struggles if the player plays safe. It forces you to play defensive too or else you'll just get punished. It's almost as if at higher percents they can force the match to become whoever is better defensively, and my defense is not near as strong as my pressure and offense. That could be part of it, maybe. Just a thought

 

[FullMoon]

Typically if the opponent is getting too defensive you should let go of your aggressiveness and play the baiting game that Greninja is very good at. Empty hops, roll/spotdodges reads or in general making the opponent make a punishable mistake is the way to go against a defensive opponent.

I myself get a lot more passive when I'm close to losing a match and it does work well to an extent. Pressuring the opponent with safe F-Airs is a good way to make them end up commiting to something unsafe and punish them for it.

People keep saying that Greninja struggles to get a kill but it's very rare for my opponent to last very long unless he's a heavy-weight.

FullMoon congrats on being the best Greninja main on Anther's Ladder. Keep it up

By the way I forgot to respond to this so, thanks!

 

[SmashRacer]

A similar thing happened to me about a week ago. I was playing against one of my friend's Mewtwo as Greninja, he was at about 120% on his last stock. He just KO'ed me and now we are even in stocks. I was like: "I got this". Got some few hits here and there and he were now somewhere around 150%. Then I somehow dropped the ball, messed up and couldn't finish him off.
I died to an Up Smash, and I felt a bit disappointed after that loss.

By the way I forgot to respond to this so, thanks!

You're welcome

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah it sucks to lose that way @ SmashRacer and I think full moon said it best with baiting. Instead of waiting trying to make them commit to something is a lot better if they are doing the same to you.
I'm usually always throwing out empty hops and using his mobility but it slips my mind when I get all scared. I'll try to keep it in mind, I used to have a bait and punish style, I should incorporate that more.

On the side I seem to have self control issues too cause when I lose like this I just go insane sometimes.. Haha, kinda ruins the fun. The smash ladder rankings reset and I usually avoid ranked matches but you need to do ranked to play people cause they won't play you if you aren't ranked cause people want to play good players. Like if you aren't a certain rank people might not play you, I just want to be where I think I fall, and be able to verse players without them denying me because my rank says otherwise about my skill. I have already lost 2 ranked matches to people I had beat and who I played afterwards and dominantly took games. It's frustrating :/ I don't wanna do another ranked match and lose and then my ranked is lower and people won't want wanna play me.

 

[FullMoon]

On the side I seem to have self control issues too cause when I lose like this I just go insane sometimes.. Haha, kinda ruins the fun. The smash ladder rankings reset and I usually avoid ranked matches but you need to do ranked to play people cause they won't play you if you aren't ranked cause people want to play good players. Like if you aren't a certain rank people might not play you, I just want to be where I think I fall, and be able to verse players without them denying me because my rank says otherwise about my skill. I have already lost 2 ranked matches to people I had beat and who I played afterwards and dominantly took games. It's frustrating :/ I don't wanna do another ranked match and lose and then my ranked is lower and people won't want wanna play me.

I'm pretty guilty of not playing lower ranked people myself.

... Not that it stops lower ranked people from challenging me in spite of I clearly stating that I want to face people with a Silver II rank or more.

Or when they only realize that I'm from Brazil in the middle or after the set has ended because they couldn't bother looking to the right a bit.

Like just now I got challenged by like 5 unranked people.

 

[David Galanos]

I'm pretty guilty of not playing lower ranked people myself.

... Not that it stops lower ranked people from challenging me in spite of I clearly stating that I want to face people with a Silver II rank or more.

Or when they only realize that I'm from Brazil in the middle or after the set has ended because they couldn't bother looking to the right a bit.

Like just now I got challenged by like 5 unranked people.

I understand. I even do it. I would love to play lower level players more often and give advice but I'm trying to get good practice in too and since I'm no pro, I can lose to players I'm better than sometimes, which frustrates me and I try to avoid that. Plus playing worse players can create bad habits. I feel bad saying like 1300+ or something but it's understandable wanting good practice.
But that's why I want to make sure I am ranked where I should be because I understand someone denying me for not being close enough to their level.

 

[mimgrim]

Something a lot of Greninja's need to do is stop playing so aggressively. If you want to play an approach game and just be aggro then play someone else that actually does a good job with that play-style, because Greninja just isn't cut out for that kind of play-style in the long run. He has too much start-up lag to go anywhere meaningful with an aggresive approach to his play-style, just look at this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-frame-data-rankings-wip.402294/ he's the 4th worst character when it comes to start-up on frame data. You can't lose your cool as Greninja and you MUST have an overwhelming amount of patience.

I know people don't want to hear it and I'll probably get yelled at or something by saying this but meh.

If you want to play on aggro and be on the approach
Or lose you cool easily
Or get impatient easily

Then Greninja probably isn't the character for you and you should probably look into a different character.

(This post is directed to no one in particular and is more of a general thing based on what I've seen).

.....

Also there is a reason why local play is superior to online play. And I'm not talking about lag here. But rather the interactiveness that local play provides as well as players being more willing in general to play with you no matter your skill level and advice being far more direct. :L

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah I am fully aware you cannot be very aggressive as him. By aggressive I do not really mean what you may think like, throwing out dash attacks and nairs. I just tend to try to pressure with offense, idk kinda hard to explain. I do play passive-agro at times, zoning at times, and generally I'll use his mobility a lot to try and bait something. I just never am sitting around, I guess. I know full out aggression is not very viable as him.

 

[bc1910]

Hey guys, can we talk about secondaries for a bit?

Now, I should clarify that I do think Greninja is viable as a solo main, or at least will get to that stage. However, it can't hurt to have a high level secondary to take the edge off of Greninja's worst MUs. I think Greninja has three MUs where a secondary would be useful because even though they are "doable", they are definitely not in his favour. These MUs are Sheik, Sonic and Fox.

Of those MUs, I feel that Sheik is the worst and Sonic/Fox are about as bad as each other, with Sonic being slightly worse. To that end, I've been experimenting with various characters to see how they fare primarily against these three, but also against a few other high tier MUs that can be annoying for Greninja. I've also been researching some characters' MU spreads to supplement my findings. My goal was basically to find the single best secondary for Greninja, because I think learning two characters at the very highest level is reasonable but more than that can make you spread yourself too thin. So, here are my findings.

Sheik goes even with herself and either goes even with or slightly beats Sonic and Fox, making her a good secondary. She also gives Yoshi, Falcon and Mario a hard time, all of which can be annoying for Greninja to deal with. Sheik is probably the safest secondary because she covers the highest number of bad MUs with slight wins across the board. Perhaps this is unsurprising given Sheik is the best character in the game. Going even with herself is also REALLY good, because no-one really beats Sheik.

Fox goes even with himself and beats Sonic harder than Sheik does, corroborated by Seagull Joe who believes Fox is Sonic's worst MU. However, Fox goes even with Sheik at best and several players think he loses to her. He generally does well against every other character but I think Greninja beats certain powerful characters like Ness and Luigi more effectively than Fox does. Fox is a better choice than Sheik for a secondary if you really hate Sonic, but your Sheik MU can still be a little lopsided.

Sonic I actually don't feel is a very good secondary for us. He goes even with himself (although Sonic dittos are among the most boring, stupid MUs in the game) but loses to Fox and is not a reliable counterpick for Sheik. On top of this, Greninja already does well against most of the other good characters that Sonic does well against, including Rosalina, Ness and ZSS.

Diddy does well against Sonics who rely too heavily on Spin Dash because his banana can shut that move down, but good Sonic players will just pick up the banana and continue with their regular gameplay. Since the nerfs, most players think that Sonic slightly beats Diddy now. Diddy also loses to Sheik because he no longer kills her at super low percents from a grab, but can be killed very early because her edgeguarding is good and his recovery is trash. There are worse choices against Sheik though, and Diddy does well against Fox too. Not a bad choice for a secondary.

Some say ZSS does well against Sonic because of her down throw -> Uairs -> Up B combo working particularly well against him and killing him as early as 40%. If you're fighting a Sonic who keeps Spin Dashing into grabs, then by all means pick her. But if you're fighting a Sonic who has a brain, you won't find ZSS as useful against him as Sheik or Fox. ZSS does better against Sheik and Fox than we do, but most players think she loses to them albeit slightly. I do think ZSS complements us well as a secondary though because her mobility stats are very similar, and you can use paralyzer somewhat similarly to shurikens. Also, having a terrible standing grab won't come as a nasty surprise because our grab is probably worse than hers, all things considered. ZSS is worth considering, she won't win bad MUs for you but she makes all of them more bearable. A bit like a less extreme Sheik.

Rosalina and Ness are not good secondaries, they lose to the same three characters we do.

Yoshi is said to beat Sonic and lose to Sheik. There's a lot of conflicting opinion about Yoshi vs Fox but it seems most people think it's either even or slightly in Fox's favour. Either way, for our purposes, Yoshi isn't a particularly good secondary because his MU spread against our worst MUs is similiar to Fox's, but Fox beats Sonic harder.

Pikachu is definitely a good secondary. He's tricky to learn, but he should go at least even with all three of our worst MUs. Also Pikachu's worst MU is Luigi, who Greninja beats, so the two Pokemon cover each other really well. Pikachu also does extremely well against ZSS who I think Greninja does well against anyway but some players disagree, so it's nice to have her covered.

Luigi is an excellent character who does very well against Fox and holds his own against Sonic. He beats Pikachu and Diddy as well, who we don't lose to but can be tough to fight at times. However, for the purpose of being our secondary, he's held back by the fact that his MU with Sheik is really quite bad. The Greninja/Luigi combo begs for a Sheik player to come and ruin the fun.

Mario is a good choice for a secondary too I think. He doesn't do as well against Fox or Sonic as Luigi does, but he does slightly better against Sheik. He's a pretty balanced secondary and definitely worth considering, although Sheik generally has similar-but-slightly-better MUs against our problem characters. This includes others like Falcon and Yoshi.

Kirby is a very interesting character to consider here as well. It's often stated that due to his crouching shenanigans and the fact that his needles are better than hers, Kirby goes even with Sheik (and might be the only character to do so). Against Sonic, his aerials are extremely good at challenging Spin Dash (they usually beat it) and they have low enough landing lag to be used as pokes. He doesn't do well against Fox on stage, but actually gives him hell when it comes to edgeguarding. It might be worth developing Kirby as a secondary because he has one of the best spreads against our bad MU characters.

So in conclusion, I believe that Sheik and Pikachu are both very worthwhile characters to learn if you want a reliable secondary for Greninja's bad MUs. Other characters don't offer as balanced advantages as those two, but if you don't mind having slightly more polarized strengths and weaknesses between your two characters it's definitely worth considering Fox as a secondary as well. Kirby is also unreliable against Fox and Sonic, but does well against Sheik and might be worth developing.

EDIT: Wow, that turned into a much bigger wall than I thought it would. Well, the tl;dr is that if you want a secondary who's good at covering Greninja's worst MUs then Sheik is the best choice, followed by Pikachu, then Fox.

 

[FullMoon]

So guys, about the Sonic MU...

Has anybody tried to use pivot grab as a countermeasure to Spin Dash? It's disjointed with a really good range and since we'll be running away from Sonic we get some distance from him when using it. I tried to do that while playing with a guy that was helping me learn the MU and while it's faaaar from being flawless, it is kind of a neat trick.

 

[David Galanos]

So guys, about the Sonic MU...

Has anybody tried to use pivot grab as a countermeasure to Spin Dash? It's disjointed with a really good range and since we'll be running away from Sonic we get some distance from him when using it. I tried to do that while playing with a guy that was helping me learn the MU and while it's faaaar from being flawless, it is kind of a neat trick.

I actually have messed with that. Mainly when we end up shielding at the same time or something and we're close-ish, and I'll try it. I may end up just eating the percent though, it's somewhat of a gamble if you ask me, unless you can react and predict it fast enough.


and I have never really wanted a secondary, but I do know how to play fox, falcon, and sheik decently.

I just never want to feel like I need to try to counter pick when I have been playing against all characters with just Greninja for a while and have done fine.

Sheik, pikachu and fox fit my style a bit so if I did have one it'd be them. I do agree that Sheik is the best secondary, followed by pikachu. Pikachu is just, freakin good lol and can verse like any character with not too much trouble, didn't know luigi was a bad mu,

Fox is just kind of only for sonic, cause if you're going up against someone who has a better fox you're almost at a disadvantage there in a way. Not really but you get what I mean, same with sheik too. And sheik can combo and gimp fox with bair stage spikes, but good foxes usually evade that, or tech. If you're gonna counter pick it's better to pick an actual different character than the character you lose to, right? Cause if you're versing someone at your level or higher and they have a lot more experience with the character it may not be the best bet, but what do I know, probably wrong. Also sheik can combo and gimp fox with bair stage spikes, but good foxes usually evade that, or tech.

And my friend who mains sheik says he hates the Yoshi matchup cause I hear you have to be fast enough with your combos or he can just nair out, same with Greninja kind of too but it's not too bad just annoying at times, cause with sheik you'll get hit but as Greninja it can be avoided sorta.

The only match ups that are worth a secondary for are sheik and fox. I don't like Sonic, and I do think he has a slight advantage, but switching characters isn't gonna make him less annoying. Well fox might lol. Can't he like stop side b with nair? You still have to somewhat time it though so it's not like you get a free no side b card.

Sonic forces you to not space back airs or fairs, and not really approach, cause he can just side b through any of that. I remember the days when Sonics would just side b and do an ariel on shield and I would just back air or nair out of shield over and over lol, but now they will up b, stop and do other mix ups, like good players

It seems weird using someone other than Greninja in a serious match though, I would have some more learning to do. Sheik can be fun but I don't know about her. I play fox in friendlies a good amount but he's not great for anyone but Sonic really. Falcon I find fun cause it's falcon but he doesn't do much help. Pikachu would probably be the way I go, but for now Im just gonna go solo I guess

 

[carlos11]

Can I suggest a solution to the problem of not being able to finish someone?

Okay, first you turn on customs. Then, you equip Shifting Shuriken. Once you've done that, half the work required to get the KO is basically already done for you. :^)
(Samurai please don't nerf this)