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Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

bc1910

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I actually think Greninja's on a par with high tiers like Luigi. Especially with how good his MUs are looking lately. Luigi is a great character but he has serious limitations, just like Greninja.Top 5 is a stretch but this patch was really kind to Greninja and top 15 isn't out of the question. Off the top of my head:

Characters who I feel Greninja is definitely lower than are :4sheik:, :4pikachu:, :4fox:, :4zss: and :4sonic:. Maybe :rosalina: too.

However, high tiers who I feel Greninja is on a par with are :4falcon:, :4luigi:, :4mario:, :4ness:, :4yoshi: and :4pit:/:4darkpit:.
 

momochuu

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yeah, greninja's in that "good, but not TOO good" tier along with mario, falcon, yoshi ,etc.
 

Jonarobin

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Thanks.

I keep saying Yoshi is one of Greninja's hardest matchup (besides Sheik and Fox) and nobody listen to me lmao.
What makes Yoshi so good against Greninja..? Eggs? I've fought several Yoshis as Greninja but I've always just felt... better. Maybe I just haven't fought a good Yoshi.

Why do you think the matchup is difficult?

Also I'd still love Greninja dittos at some point, anyone want to soon?
 

Jaguar360

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What makes Yoshi so good against Greninja..? Eggs? I've fought several Yoshis as Greninja but I've always just felt... better. Maybe I just haven't fought a good Yoshi.

Why do you think the matchup is difficult?

Also I'd still love Greninja dittos at some point, anyone want to soon?
I explained my thoughts last page, but in short:
  • Eggs
  • Less commitment on moves
  • Egg Lay
  • Difficult to edgeguard thanks to super armor on double jump
  • Can keep up with Greninja in terms of mobility
  • N-air
It's very manageable for Greninja though, I still think it's slightly in Yoshi's favor. After the talk with Fullmoon, I think it's 45:55.
 

Gunla

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I'd say Greninja's top 15.

I couldn't say whom is at the top, though. A bit early for that, but I have some ideas.
 
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Funkermonster

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Would say Top 15 also, he's good but not too good. Before his nerf in 1.0.4., he just might have been top 6. I didn't do as well as I wanted to at MVG Sandstorm and only got so far in the top 64 bracket, could barely win any games with Greninja so that adds insult to the injury. I beat Hungrybox on day 1, but got pulverized by him yesterday (again using Mega Man) and got 2 stocked twice, he either must've adapted from the previous fight and shifted to god mode or I somehow fell apart and lost the good thing I had going. I also got a chance to play ZeRo in friendlies and got completely bopped, could take like only 1 stock off of him in total. Really fun I got to meet them and the other pros though, and playing them has taught me what areas I'm struggling with. Regardless of the outcome though, I intend to work on my 3 blue guys :4greninja::4megaman::4sonic: and stand tall in battle fr the rest of my competitive career. I've also been having fun with the blue girls :4lucina: and :rosalina: lately too, especially with customs.


Also, does anyone got advice on fighting :4pikachu: or :4lucario:? Didn't face either Pokemon in the tournament but I tend to encounter them quite a bit and I almost never have fun fighting them with a lack of MU knowledge.
 

Coffee™

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Tested it with a 1.05 version 3ds and a 1.06 version Wii U in training mode against a Mario cpu (not the absolute best model in theory, but I found it consistent enough). I could connect the Dash Atack -> Fair registering as a combo in both versions up until the exact same percents (I could barely do it at 100% Mario in both versions, higher percents are) with the exact same amount of difficulty in timing. I did notice that it's seemingly impossible to get the true combo if you hit with the later part of the Dash Attack (Greninja ends up positioned further from the opponent), but that functioned exactly the same in both versions. I'm really finding zero difference here.

Placebo effect is a thing. I could definitely be wrong, but until someone shows some actually evidence of it, I'm going with no change. And even if there is a change, it looks like it would have to be incredibly minor.
I swear the angle is slightly different but eh...it could just be placebo/DI.

Thanks.

I keep saying Yoshi is one of Greninja's hardest matchup (besides Sheik and Fox) and nobody listen to me lmao.
Imo Shiek is noticeably harder than Fox. Idk how I feel about Yoshi yet.
 
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David Galanos

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I never really saw sheik or fox as really hard matchups, until I versed some sheiks and foxes that do what makes the matchup pretty hard. Fox covering landing with dash attack is a huge pain, landing is tough. And from overall fox beats Greninja on the ground, in my opinion

Sheik is just, when they play smart and use needles affectively it's tough. Fully charged shuriken in the neutral is useless because needles or they can just bouncing fish for free. And she cannot be edgeguarding like at all. Oh yeah and needles beat shuriken too

Both still very do-able matchups. I never feel discouraged when I have to verse one in tournament, especially sheik cause I feel like Greninja can almost do better at some points if the sheik can't kill.
 
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David Galanos

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Would say Top 15 also, he's good but not too good. Before his nerf in 1.0.4., he just might have been top 6. I didn't do as well as I wanted to at MVG Sandstorm and only got so far in the top 64 bracket, could barely win any games with Greninja so that adds insult to the injury. I beat Hungrybox on day 1, but got pulverized by him yesterday (again using Mega Man) and got 2 stocked twice, he either must've adapted from the previous fight and shifted to god mode or I somehow fell apart and lost the good thing I had going. I also got a chance to play ZeRo in friendlies and got completely bopped, could take like only 1 stock off of him in total. Really fun I got to meet them and the other pros though, and playing them has taught me what areas I'm struggling with. Regardless of the outcome though, I intend to work on my 3 blue guys :4greninja::4megaman::4sonic: and stand tall in battle fr the rest of my competitive career. I've also been having fun with the blue girls :4lucina: and :rosalina: lately too, especially with customs.
Would say Top 15 also, he's good but not too good. Before his nerf in 1.0.4., he just might have been top 6. I didn't do as well as I wanted to at MVG Sandstorm and only got so far in the top 64 bracket, could barely win any games with Greninja so that adds insult to the injury. I beat Hungrybox on day 1, but got pulverized by him yesterday (again using Mega Man) and got 2 stocked twice, he either must've adapted from the previous fight and shifted to god mode or I somehow fell apart and lost the good thing I had going. I also got a chance to play ZeRo in friendlies and got completely bopped, could take like only 1 stock off of him in total. Really fun I got to meet them and the other pros though, and playing them has taught me what areas I'm struggling with. Regardless of the outcome though, I intend to work on my 3 blue guys :4greninja::4megaman::4sonic: and stand tall in battle fr the rest of my competitive career. I've also been having fun with the blue girls :4lucina: and :rosalina: lately too, especially with customs.


Also, does anyone got advice on fighting :4pikachu: or :4lucario:? Didn't face either Pokemon in the tournament but I tend to encounter them quite a bit and I almost never have fun fighting them with a lack of MU knowledge.
I don't know much about pikachu, but I know for sure that using Shuriken as a zoning/camping tool is not smart. Pikachu can quick attack through or over them. I rarely use shuriken in the matchup unless I know they can't quick attack me.
 

bc1910

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Fox can at least be edgeguarded because you can chase him offstage and put pressure on him. This is due to his awful air speed limiting his ability to weave. Also, if he wants to put a defensive hitbox in front of him when returning to the stage he has to use Fair, Nair or maybe Dair, which all last too long and put him at risk of dying.

Sheik however has better aerial mobility and the option to just swat you away with Fair if you try to gimp her pre-emptively i.e. before she has committed to an airdodge. Bouncing Fish and Vanish are also harder to interrupt than Fox's recovery moves and way less linear. A Sheik who is cautious about when she uses her double jump is very difficult to edgeguard.

On-stage I feel it's easier to deal with Sheik than Fox because at least there's some way to reset to neutral after Sheik hits you. If Fox jabs you, you can get trapped in a true combo from about 70% onwards. Oh and Sheik's struggle to get the kill is very real against a character like Greninja who has a long and versatile recovery. Bair's nerf really hurts Sheik in this and many other MUs. Way more than I expected actually. Make sure you know how to DI Fthrow > Bouncing Fish though, it's a true kill combo that is VASTLY underrated.

Both MUs are tough but we have things to threaten each character with. It's nowhere near as bad as some of Sheik's more polarising MUs where she just slaps a heavy around for the whole match.
 

BlueTerrorist

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Being recognized as a player is tough x.x.. I've been putting in work as Greninja for some time in the tournament scene and I'm still in the same place. I guess compliments are something but in terms of being recognized as one of the best at a certain character, it's like that spot is always being held away from me. I can understand not being recognized as a top Sonic because he is overused and a lot of top players use him. Guess it's hard to be like that no matter the character. Where I stand as a Greninja? I have no idea. Just venting out a little frustration with my journey as a smasher. Tired of not being recognized but other smashers around me in nyc does.
 

Marilink

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I got my butt handed to me by an Olimar online yesterday. Am I sleeping on Olimar, or is that matchup actually bad? 'Cuz it sure felt really bad, but of course it could be personal.
 

FullMoon

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I've faced some Olimars myself and the MU seems to be pretty even to me. I think the biggest mistake once can make in the MU is respecting his Pikmin too much, but that may be just me.
 

bc1910

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Olimar gets a lot harder to fight online, he's one of those characters who lag does wonders for, whereas Greninja is pretty much only hurt by lag. That could have had something to do with it.

Our Nair is one of the best moves in the game for getting rid of Pikmin if (when) they get attached to you by the way. It covers your whole body and is really safe on whiff. Especially combined with our mobility, we can just run away from Olimar and short hop Nair to get rid of Pikmin for free.
 
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FullMoon

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I'm pretty sure Blue Pikmin are immune to our water moves.

The best tool for getting rid of them is probably Substitute upwards.

Really if a blue Pikmin latches on to me I just ignore it and keep going at Olimar.
 

bc1910

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I don't know if that's true, I'll have to test it later. Regardless, Nair destroys every other colour Pikmin, including the white ones which are by far the most threatening.
 

Lavani

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I'm like 95% sure blue pikmin died to nair/smashes before

I'll look into it later tonight I guess, maybe they got updated in 1.0.6

EDIT: Fsmash kills a blue in one hit but even six nairs didn't kill, nor did it flinch, so I guess they're immune to nair. I don't remember that being the case before.

EDIT2: Turns out blues were always immune to nair, can't kill them with it in 1.0.0 either.
 
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Marilink

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I also just did some testing, and blues are definitely immune to Nair. Which kinda sucks, because that means that natural selection will make Olimar's grabs even stronger during that matchup, heh.
 

KERO

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Yeah, Blues are immune to Nair. In general, Oli really irritates me, and this is coming from someone who mained him in Brawl (cannot stand how he feels in Smash 4). The fact that he can literally throw out huge, long lasting hitboxes one after the other in quick succession makes Greninja's approach game even worse than usual. On top of that, camping him is a pain since his Pikmin just absorb Shuriken. Also, I think he has the worst small/floaty ratio for us, leading to him constantly escaping Uair. Oh, and he kills stupid early. On the other hand, he dies really early as well. I feel he might be one of those MUs where we have to force him to approach (like Villager), but I really need to take the time and learn what is and isn't safe on him. Also, Dair is a relatively safe bet I believe. Like in Brawl, aerials destroy Usmash for no reason still, and he doesn't have a good OoS Usmash like he used to. No customs, I'd personally put it slightly in Oli favor (45:55 imo) without customs. Might be even or slightly in our favor with Shifty.

Oh, one important thing to note, non-White Pikmin really don't do much damage when they're on you, so even if Nair doesn't get that blue off, as long as it gets the other one(s) off, you aren't going to be hurting too badly. Another important thing to note is that Sub plays an interesting role in this MU where it can be used for surprise mobility (the Pikmin on you can activate it), but you will never be able to get it off as a kill move (barring some sort of wizard-like Ftilt read). Since most of Oli's ground moves involve Pikmin separate from Olimar, he doesn't suffer from the hitlag himself, just the Pikmin, giving him a ton more time to shield a Sub. Although, I suppose we could try out Ambush to wreck his shield, but I'm personally not too experienced with the drawbacks of that custom, though.

Can't stand fighting Olimar at all personally. Way too weird/frustrating a MU
 
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FullMoon

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Olimar doesn't feel too bad for me and I've fought a good number of them, the thing that really worries me when fighting him really is his grab range and D-Smash, otherwise, the pikmin are really good at making you nervous and throwing you off but I feel that as long as you can keep your cool Olimar becomes a lot more bearable.
 

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Jonarobin

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Sheik is way harder than Fox imo.

btw check my Greninja vs Fox matchup in the tourney last weekend :)

http://www.twitch.tv/crimsonmoonking/b/651719002

It starts at 3:27:19

Ignore commentary pls lmao
Nice Greninja play! You're pretty defense, huh. I think I play a more offensive Greninja, not sure if thats how he's supposed to be played...

Is downtilt to upsmash a true combo or what... I can't seem to pull it off all the time, not sure if its just me messing it up or if its just escapable/only works at certain %...
 

David Galanos

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Nice Greninja play! You're pretty defense, huh. I think I play a more offensive Greninja, not sure if thats how he's supposed to be played...

Is downtilt to upsmash a true combo or what... I can't seem to pull it off all the time, not sure if its just me messing it up or if its just escapable/only works at certain %...
Greninja can really be played both ways in my opinion. I rush down more and take complete advantage of Greninjas great mobility, I do a lot of empty hops and tomahawking occasionally, running around, trying to get strings going, stuff like that, and putting pressure on them. I do space fairs a lot and zone shurikens sometime too. That's my style with him, implementing defense is important too tho.

And down tilt up smash can be avoided, at certain percents it is much likelier than others, but at higher percents down tilt will lead to a fair instead. I don't know the exact percents, I can generally see the percent and say "This should connect if I execute correctly"
 
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bc1910

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@astroninja1


Nice Greninja play! You're pretty defense, huh. I think I play a more offensive Greninja, not sure if thats how he's supposed to be played...

Is downtilt to upsmash a true combo or what... I can't seem to pull it off all the time, not sure if its just me messing it up or if its just escapable/only works at certain %...
Dtilt -> Usmash is guaranteed if you are right next to them when you Dtilt (basically inside them) or if you are doing a sliding Dtilt into them. A well-spaced Dtilt, which is realistically the best kind, will not true combo into Usmash. However it will true combo into Fair at high percents.

In that video the Fox player kept running into the Greninja player and getting hit with Dtilt, so he was right next to Greninja when he got hit, allowing the combo to work.
 
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Jonarobin

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Dtilt -> Usmash is guaranteed if you are right next to them when you Dtilt (basically inside them) or if you are doing a sliding Dtilt into them. A well-spaced Dtilt, which is realistically the best kind, will not true combo into Usmash. However it will true combo into Fair at high percents.

In that video the Fox player kept running into the Greninja player and getting hit with Dtilt, so he was right next to Greninja when he got hit, allowing the combo to work.
Sliding D-tilt meaning perfect pivot down-tilt or..? Or hydropump to the ground downtilt slide of some kind?
 

jordanm43444

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Since I dont think this question will merit its own thread ill ask here since I plan on using Greninja at my next local for once.

How good is using taunts into baiting people into a shadow sneak hit from a close distance?
 

David Galanos

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Since I dont think this question will merit its own thread ill ask here since I plan on using Greninja at my next local for once.

How good is using taunts into baiting people into a shadow sneak hit from a close distance?
Lol I wouldn't do it unless you're trying to style. Especially since shadow sneak has low priority so it's not like if you side b before you get hit you're safe. So yeah don't do it not the best idea in a tournament
 

jordanm43444

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Lol I wouldn't do it unless you're trying to style. Especially since shadow sneak has low priority so it's not like if you side b before you get hit you're safe. So yeah don't do it not the best idea in a tournament
Well, I was more thing of, setting up a taunt relatively close to them then shadow sneaking behind them if they try and hit me. Sort of like a counter in some regards.
 

DrizzyDrew

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So Monday Toysrus is taking in store preorders for the greninja amiibo...who else is being alittle late for work to try and get one or two lol
 

Jonarobin

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So Monday Toysrus is taking in store preorders for the greninja amiibo...who else is being alittle late for work to try and get one or two lol
you seriously think you can get 2??
I'll be lucky if I can preorder one for 30$ online... I need greninja as he is one of my mains so I'm willing to pay more :p

I wish I could go instore to get one but I can't and I can't even order him anywhere right now, hope I get him soon somehow
 

Makani

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So Monday Toysrus is taking in store preorders for the greninja amiibo...who else is being alittle late for work to try and get one or two lol
I'm definitely gonna be at my local TRU atleast 2 hours early, can't leave anything up to chance...
 

David Galanos

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Well, I was more thing of, setting up a taunt relatively close to them then shadow sneaking behind them if they try and hit me. Sort of like a counter in some regards.
Ah ok. I would still try it in friendlies or something before doing it in tournament. Cause you wouldn't wanna lose your lead cause of it
 
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