Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[mimgrim]

I'd like to see some of your matches if that's possible, you offer alot of insightful info about Greninja that seems interesting. Before reading one of your posts about Greninja's neutral game I was always super aggressive and approachful, but since trying out maintaining neutral i've gotten some nice results out of it, although it doesn't work out in some MUs it's pretty great for the majority of MUs.

Heh. Unfortunately I don't have any matches recorded and don't even get to play this game that often, read almost never, with other people because of distance and rl Johns, and even with Project M, which I get to play a lot more often (because distance isn't bad) aside from recently (again because RL Johns) I only have one match recorded but isn't a good indicator of how I play now. Pretty much everything I post is from lab work and being able to visualize how things work out, it is why you will rarely ever see me talk about MUs because I can't really offer anything towards that as that requires a more on hands thing, and watch videos, when I get the chance. So yeah. It why I only talk about things I can gather from the lab and stuff like that.

 

[Kite0692]

Yoshi has pretty much no kill setups and his grab is a tether. The biggest problem with Yoshi is his N-Air and very disruptive eggs, as well as his dash attack, but overall as long as you can keep him at bay Greninja shouldn't have too much of a problem with him.

Abuse disjoints to keep Yoshi away, he's going to rely on reads in order to get a kill so don't get too predictable and punish him when he whiffs a Smash. For some reason Yoshi feels easier to hit with Up-Smash than most characters, same with Ness, that might be just me though. Shurikens can also help force Yoshi to come after you sometimes.

I have one match where I survived until 190% against a Yoshi and I think I only didn't live longer because I killed him before he could land anything else on me.

Can't see the MU being any worse than even for Greninja.

Sorry but I don't agree with you in some things. Yoshi has no kill setups? Uair, Fair, Bair, Usmash and Fsmash kill Greninja in like nothing. Most of his attacks can only be punished with jab combo. Plus, most of the time they use neutral B instead of grab. Racking up damage against him is not as easy as you say it is (as long as you can keep him at bay Greninja shouldn't have too much of a problem with him), Yoshi doesn't have too much trouble getting in, and he can deal really good with shurikens and his air movement and double jump makes it really hard to Uthrow and Uair him.

I don't know if its even or not, I just think is a really hard matchup to play and that Yoshi is really, REALLY underrated. The thing is, as far as I know, there are not too many good Yoshis in big tourneys, and there are even less Greninjas out there, so is not a matchup you see very often.

 

[FullMoon]

Sorry but I don't agree with you in some things. Yoshi has no kill setups? Uair, Fair, Bair, Usmash and Fsmash kill Greninja in like nothing. Most of his attacks can only be punished with jab combo. Plus, most of the time they use neutral B instead of grab. Racking up damage against him is not as easy as you say it is (as long as you can keep him at bay Greninja shouldn't have too much of a problem with him), Yoshi doesn't have too much trouble getting in, and he can deal really good with shurikens and his air movement and double jump makes it really hard to Uthrow and Uair him.

I don't know if its even or not, I just think is a really hard matchup to play and that Yoshi is really, REALLY underrated. The thing is, as far as I know, there are not too many good Yoshis in big tourneys, and there are even less Greninjas out there, so is not a matchup you see very often.

Kill setups are combos that guarantee a kill. Yoshi doesn't have those. He just has strong moves that kill, but no way to combo into them.

I've played tons of Yoshis myself and so I'm pretty sure I know how to play this MU

 

[Marilink]

I'm just gonna cherrypick this discussion real quick and say that you can, in fact, tomahawk into a dash grab. just because the standing grab is horrible (and yes, it really is bad) doesn't mean you can't tomahawk. You just have to space it differently.

 

[Jaguar360]

Kill setups are combos that guarantee a kill. Yoshi doesn't have those. He just has strong moves that kill, but no way to combo into them.

I've played tons of Yoshis myself and so I'm pretty sure I know how to play this MU

U-tilt > U-air is a kill setup. Jab doesn't quite guarantee kills, but Jab > U-smash and Jab > F-smash work often and when one doesn't work, the other usually will. With customs, Egg Launch (Neutral B-3, command grab with a tad less endlag than Egg Lay) has kill power at high percents when Yoshi is facing away from the ledge. I will say that Yoshi doesn't kill as easily as many people give him credit for though. The limited kill options are a factor as you said.

I personally see the Yoshi matchup as a 45:55 in Yoshi's favor, but an even matchup is fair. Yoshi's neutral is a bit better imo because he has more safe moves than Greninja and eggs are more spammable than Shurikens in general. Faster aerials also make a big difference. OoS N-air is also way better than Greninja's OoS options, though shieldgrab sucks (Greninja's isn't any better). When Greninja does punish and get in advantage though, he does so harder than Yoshi does and he has the kill confirms, especially when the custom Shurikens are put into play. Both have great mobility and neither have an easy time gimping each other (Yoshi is more footstool-weak than usual in this matchup, however, thanks to Greninja's various great aerial movement speeds). Overall, I think Yoshi's neutral, good weight and recovery, great aerials and decent kill options push the matchup just slightly in his favor, but Greninja's combos, good Smash attacks and mobility rivaling or slightly exceeding Yoshi's make the matchup at least close to even.

I wish I could comment more on the new patch, but I only played like one match with Greninja and spent most of my time last night trying to make Mewtwo work.

 

[FullMoon]

U-tilt > U-air is a kill setup. Jab doesn't quite guarantee kills, but Jab > U-smash and Jab > F-smash work often and when one doesn't work, the other usually will. With customs, Egg Launch (Neutral B-3, command grab with a tad less endlag than Egg Lay) has kill power at high percents when Yoshi is facing away from the ledge. I will say that Yoshi doesn't kill as easily as many people give him credit for though. The limited kill options are a factor as you said.

I personally see the Yoshi matchup as a 45:55 in Yoshi's favor, but an even matchup is fair. Yoshi's neutral is a bit better imo because he has more safe moves than Greninja and eggs are more spammable than Shurikens in general. Faster aerials also make a big difference. OoS N-air is also way better than Greninja's OoS options, though shieldgrab sucks (Greninja's isn't any better). When Greninja does punish and get in advantage though, he does so harder than Yoshi does and he has the kill confirms, especially when the custom Shurikens are put into play. Both have great mobility and neither have an easy time gimping each other (Yoshi is more footstool-weak than usual in this matchup, however, thanks to Greninja's various great aerial movement speeds). Overall, I think Yoshi's neutral, good weight and recovery, great aerials and decent kill options push the matchup just slightly in his favor, but Greninja's combos, good Smash attacks and mobility rivaling or slightly exceeding Yoshi's make the matchup at least close to even.

I wish I could comment more on the new patch, but I only played like one match with Greninja and spent most of my time last night trying to make Mewtwo work.

Still can't see it. Greninja's advantaged state is much better than Yoshi's thanks to all the combos and juggling he can do, the super armor on the double jump does help Yoshi in disadvantage, but it's not like he's going to get to do much to Greninja once he gets a hit in either considering his poor advantage and Greninja's great disadvantage state. Both characters are hard to gimp, yeah, but Greninja still gimps Yoshi better than the opposite.

Basically:


- Better combos both for damage and for killing
- Better mobility outside of Air Speed
- Better range thanks to disjoints


- Faster moves
- Heavier
- Better OoS options

That's pretty much it. Yoshi's recovery is good but Greninja's is better or at the very least just as good. Yoshi might have an slight advantage in neutral because of his faster moves and eggs, but Greninja's advantage state is much better than Yoshi's and they're about equal in disadvantage states and edgeguarding but even then Greninja might still have an edge on him. They're about the same when it comes to kill power but I'm pretty sure Greninja's Up-Smash kills earlier than anything Yoshi has unless it happens on the ledge and Greninja can combo into it.

I just don't see Yoshi winning or losing, I'm very sure this MU is dead even.

 

[KERO]

I know this is super off-topic, but earlier today I had a hypothesis that the percent decrease in Sonic's side-B would put it in range to clank with uncharged Shuriken (iIrc, in Brawl, grounded moves within 5% of another move would always clank). It was 10% before, putting it 7% above uncharged Shuriken, but now it's only a difference of 4%. Turns out I was right. I don't think this will drastically change the MU (I wouldn't doubt Shifting is still preferred in customs), but hey, every little bit helps!

 

[David Galanos]

I know this is super off-topic, but earlier today I had a hypothesis that the percent decrease in Sonic's side-B would put it in range to clank with uncharged Shuriken (iIrc, in Brawl, grounded moves within 5% of another move would always clank). It was 10% before, putting it 7% above uncharged Shuriken, but now it's only a difference of 4%. Turns out I was right. I don't think this will drastically change the MU (I wouldn't doubt Shifting is still preferred in customs), but hey, every little bit helps!

Interesting. If you ask me Sonic is one of those match ups where you can barely use shuriken much in neutral at least but it's nice to see I can stop it if I'm at a good distance, maybe choosing longer stages could help this more?? Like FD or Duck hunt

(Also I think Pikachu is a matchup shurikens should not be used as a camping or zoning tool, I was playing a good pikachu and she would quick attack right over or through it)

 

[Makani]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/32y24i/a_new_easy_way_to_perform_consecutive_perfect/

mitebcool... @ FullMoon

 

[FullMoon]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/32y24i/a_new_easy_way_to_perform_consecutive_perfect/

mitebcool... @ FullMoon

Hmm.

Unfortunately, the fact that we're locked into doing Smash attacks with that by itself is not very appealing. Greninja would rather use Up-Tilt and D-Tilt with pivots so that he can combo better into things. Not only that but being unable to do anything else while pivoting until you let go of A+B kinda limits Greninja a lot and he's a character that pretty much needs to have all his options available to him at all times. Can't see that getting much use but hey, if someone can prove me wrong that would be great!

By the way, I'm going to start working on a Greninja guide tomorrow, might make it into a video later as well once I get better at video editing. Not sure how useful it'll be but it doesn't hurt to try I guess.

 

[Makani]

I tested shortly after posting it, unfortunately you're right about it being not very useful. Even the alternative I discovered is better than this method. All it's good for is maybe intimidating your opponent by sliding across the stage. lol

 

[FullMoon]

I tested shortly after posting it, unfortunately you're right about it being not very useful. Even the alternative I discovered is better than this method. All it's good for is maybe intimidating your opponent by sliding across the stage. lol

That alternative being the turnaround tilt thing, yes? I found out that it can really mess with the opponent's mind since most of the time they see Greninja running towards them they expect a grab, then all of sudden sliding D-Tilt into Up Smash.

Also I'm curious about why you tagged me about that A+B Pivot thing out of everyone else here lol.

 

[Makani]

That alternative being the turnaround tilt thing, yes? I found out that it can really mess with the opponent's mind since most of the time they see Greninja running towards them they expect a grab, then all of sudden sliding D-Tilt into Up Smash.

Also I'm curious about why you tagged me about that A+B Pivot thing out of everyone else here lol.

I remember you saying you had trouble doing the original Perfect Pivot, so I figured you'd enjoy reading about it.
As for the other technique i'm talking about, I don't know what to call it. It's not exactly a pivot tilt, but at the same time it is in the fact that you do turn around to do it. It uses the momentum of your initial dash to attack and slide at the same time. Someone made a video of it after my explanation before, but I can't remember who.

 

[SmashRacer]

I have picked up Greninja as my third secondary this Wednesday and learned some of his combos.
I've managed to pull off a neat combo in Training Mode that does 60% damage.
Here it is: http://www.gfycat.com/BouncyZanyDairycow

Speaking of combos, what are you guys favorite combos with Greninja?

Mine are: Dair - Fast-Falled Uair to FSmash and Shifting Shuriken to Sweetspotted Up Smash

 

[Coffee™]

So idk if it's been mentioned here yet but Greninja's Dash Attack got altered in the patch. The knockback angle is different. Harder to combo it into Fair now.

 

[Space thing]

So idk if it's been mentioned here yet but Greninja's Dash Attack got altered in the patch. The knockback angle is different. Harder to combo it into Fair now.

Really? I haven't noticed anything. And this comparison shows no difference it looks like: https://youtu.be/rj3486-VxS4?t=2m54s

2:54~ if the auto timer doesn't work.

 

[Coffee™]

Really? I haven't noticed anything. And this comparison shows no difference it looks like: https://youtu.be/rj3486-VxS4?t=2m54s

2:54~ if the auto timer doesn't work.

Something with it is definitely different. The angle of knockback sends the opponent slightly higher. If you check the comments on that video someone also mentions something about it. That person also mentions a difference in Up Throw, but I haven't really looked into it.

 

[momochuu]

i've been comboing dash attack into fair all the time since the patch. seems unchanged.

 

[Space thing]

Something with it is definitely different. The angle of knockback sends the opponent slightly higher. If you check the comments on that video someone also mentions something about it. That person also mentions a difference in Up Throw, but I haven't really looked into it.

Tested it with a 1.05 version 3ds and a 1.06 version Wii U in training mode against a Mario cpu (not the absolute best model in theory, but I found it consistent enough). I could connect the Dash Atack -> Fair registering as a combo in both versions up until the exact same percents (I could barely do it at 100% Mario in both versions, higher percents are) with the exact same amount of difficulty in timing. I did notice that it's seemingly impossible to get the true combo if you hit with the later part of the Dash Attack (Greninja ends up positioned further from the opponent), but that functioned exactly the same in both versions. I'm really finding zero difference here.

Placebo effect is a thing. I could definitely be wrong, but until someone shows some actually evidence of it, I'm going with no change. And even if there is a change, it looks like it would have to be incredibly minor.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey guys, guess who just won his first ever offline tournament?

I can also safely say that dash attack wasn't changed at all because I did Dash Attack -> F-Air numerous times without having to do anything different from usual.

 

[Marilink]

^Congrats, FullMoon! So is the Brazilian scene starting to get real?

Also, landed a zero-to-death while messing around on For Glory today. And, relevant to the conversation, it includes a 3.0.6 Dash Attack > Fair, so...take that for what it's worth.

Even more satisfying is that this guy changed his tag to "SCRUB" after I beat him in our first game. I dunno if he was calling me a scrub or himself a scrub, but I think I made the truth apparent. He quit after this.

 

[FullMoon]

^Congrats, FullMoon! So is the Brazilian scene starting to get real?

Also, landed a zero-to-death while messing around on For Glory today. And, relevant to the conversation, it includes a 3.0.6 Dash Attack > Fair, so...take that for what it's worth.

Even more satisfying is that this guy changed his tag to "SCRUB" after I beat him in our first game. I dunno if he was calling me a scrub or himself a scrub, but I think I made the truth apparent. He quit after this.

Not really, it was a very small tournament and all, but it's at least something that will happen once every month so it's a way for me to get some practice in. The opponents I had to face were all pretty good though!

Also yay for offstage Shadow Sneaks.

 

[David Galanos]

i've been comboing dash attack into fair all the time since the patch. seems unchanged.

Me too. I just assume the people I've done it too aren't air dodging or DI-ing well though, but maybe it could be some kind of raise in hit stun?

Not really, it was a very small tournament and all, but it's at least something that will happen once every month so it's a way for me to get some practice in. The opponents I had to face were all pretty good though!

Also yay for offstage Shadow Sneaks.

Maybe if you get the time/money you could move out to a better scene?? Also that profile pic is beautiful

 

[FullMoon]

Maybe if you get the time/money you could move out to a better scene?? Also that profile pic is beautiful

Money, yeah, I have none. I'm just a 18 years old boy who still has to do college before starting looking for work and start to make some actual money.

Also thanks, I actually used this picture a bit before but I switched after Lucas was revealed. I'm probably going to switch to it again once Lucas is released.

 

[David Galanos]

Money, yeah, I have none. I'm just a 18 years old boy who still has to do college before starting looking for work and start to make some actual money.

Also thanks, I actually used this picture a bit before but I switched after Lucas was revealed. I'm probably going to switch to it again once Lucas is released.

Yeah I just turned 16 last week, so traveling or anything like that is out of the question atm lol, but if you notice yourself getting even better than you already are, and you're serious about it, I would consider traveling if it becomes possible

 

[KERO]

Great stuff FullMoon! Keep reppin' the frog! I only managed third at a local yesterday, and I could've sworn it was opposite day, cause I beat every Sheik and Diddy (literally my entire bracket except for MK and a R.O.B.) I came across, but... I lost to a R.O.B. >.> Still, glad that I was able to beat every Sheik in the venue and show everyone who the true ninja is.

 

[Funkermonster]

Long story:

Huge national tourney yesterday I went to at an arcade featuring top players like ZeRo, MewKing, MVD, Hungrybox, and a few others; the biggest tournament I've entered in my life so far. In a round robin pool, I managed to beat all but one Sonic player in the pool and I made it into to top 64 that's gonna continue the tournament today in about 1 3/4 hours from now, using Mega Man and Greninja respectively. Yesterday, I wasn't doing as well with Greninja as I wanted to and I got bopped by some people in friendlies, I feel I am struggling with the neutral game and approaching. I'm supposed to be a bait and punish/passive aggressive fighter, and yet some really good Ike player ended punishing me and basically trashed me and a couple of other players, and I didn't feel as confident in my Greninja as I usually do and had to refrain from using him against some players in the pool. With Mega Man however, I still couldn't beat that Ike BUT I managed to defeat one of my state's PR Members in the pool, beat most of my opponents in friendlies, and did pretty well against everyone else I faced in the pool (the one person I lost to was a Sonic, but I was using Greninja and it might have gone differently if I used Mega Instead). I even got to face off against famed player Hungrybox on stream and I beat him 2-0, and the crowd was real hyped watching it and I got a lot of congratulations after winning. He stated he didn't now the matchup too well and has apparently never seen the custom moves I was using, but beating a top player feels soooooo satisfying and it gave me morale boost for everyone I played afterwards, if I beat him maybe I can beat the rest of them, and surprisingly I kinda did.

I also planned on using Sonic in this tournament and playing the blue guys , but he got nerfed a bit in the patch and if I want to Spinshot I have to change my cstick to tilts (I'm too used to having it for smashes, I don't think I should change just yet), so I never once played him yesterday because of that and I still lack the confidence to use him today except maybe in friendlies. But after my performance with Mega Man yesterday, I might have to main him instead of Greninja now.... Still going to play him though and after getting beaten a lot I'm even more determined to improve my Greninja than before and I think I know what I need to improve on most: the Neutral Game, Spacing, and Edgeguarding are the areas I think I have holes in when playing Ninja; the former being the most important.

The tournament continues in a little bit with 63 other people and I am to keep this up. Whoever I play, I hope you guys wish me good luck, and I wish y'all good luck in your tournaments too.

 

[Marilink]

^Oh man, you're at Sandstorm? Consider me jealous! Congrats on making it out of pools, hope today goes well for you!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Long story:

Huge national tourney yesterday I went to at an arcade featuring top players like ZeRo, MewKing, MVD, Hungrybox, and a few others; the biggest tournament I've entered in my life so far. In a round robin pool, I managed to beat all but one Sonic player in the pool and I made it into to top 64 that's gonna continue the tournament today in about 1 3/4 hours from now, using Mega Man and Greninja respectively. Yesterday, I wasn't doing as well with Greninja as I wanted to and I got bopped by some people in friendlies, I feel I am struggling with the neutral game and approaching. I'm supposed to be a bait and punish/passive aggressive fighter, and yet some really good Ike player ended punishing me and basically trashed me and a couple of other players, and I didn't feel as confident in my Greninja as I usually do and had to refrain from using him against some players in the pool. With Mega Man however, I still couldn't beat that Ike BUT I managed to defeat one of my state's PR Members in the pool, beat most of my opponents in friendlies, and did pretty well against everyone else I faced in the pool (the one person I lost to was a Sonic, but I was using Greninja and it might have gone differently if I used Mega Instead). I even got to face off against famed player Hungrybox on stream and I beat him 2-0, and the crowd was real hyped watching it and I got a lot of congratulations after winning. He stated he didn't now the matchup too well and has apparently never seen the custom moves I was using, but beating a top player feels soooooo satisfying and it gave me morale boost for everyone I played afterwards, if I beat him maybe I can beat the rest of them, and surprisingly I kinda did.

I also planned on using Sonic in this tournament and playing the blue guys , but he got nerfed a bit in the patch and if I want to Spinshot I have to change my cstick to tilts (I'm too used to having it for smashes, I don't think I should change just yet), so I never once played him yesterday because of that and I still lack the confidence to use him today except maybe in friendlies. But after my performance with Mega Man yesterday, I might have to main him instead of Greninja now.... Still going to play him though and after getting beaten a lot I'm even more determined to improve my Greninja than before and I think I know what I need to improve on most: the Neutral Game, Spacing, and Edgeguarding are the areas I think I have holes in when playing Ninja; the former being the most important.

The tournament continues in a little bit with 63 other people and I am to keep this up. Whoever I play, I hope you guys wish me good luck, and I wish y'all good luck in your tournaments too.

Congrats on beating Hbox!

 

[David Galanos]

Great stuff FullMoon! Keep reppin' the frog! I only managed third at a local yesterday, and I could've sworn it was opposite day, cause I beat every Sheik and Diddy (literally my entire bracket except for MK and a R.O.B.) I came across, but... I lost to a R.O.B. >.> Still, glad that I was able to beat every Sheik in the venue and show everyone who the true ninja is.

I think ROB has some advantages over Greninja

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Long story:

Huge national tourney yesterday I went to at an arcade featuring top players like ZeRo, MewKing, MVD, Hungrybox, and a few others; the biggest tournament I've entered in my life so far. In a round robin pool, I managed to beat all but one Sonic player in the pool and I made it into to top 64 that's gonna continue the tournament today in about 1 3/4 hours from now, using Mega Man and Greninja respectively. Yesterday, I wasn't doing as well with Greninja as I wanted to and I got bopped by some people in friendlies, I feel I am struggling with the neutral game and approaching. I'm supposed to be a bait and punish/passive aggressive fighter, and yet some really good Ike player ended punishing me and basically trashed me and a couple of other players, and I didn't feel as confident in my Greninja as I usually do and had to refrain from using him against some players in the pool. With Mega Man however, I still couldn't beat that Ike BUT I managed to defeat one of my state's PR Members in the pool, beat most of my opponents in friendlies, and did pretty well against everyone else I faced in the pool (the one person I lost to was a Sonic, but I was using Greninja and it might have gone differently if I used Mega Instead). I even got to face off against famed player Hungrybox on stream and I beat him 2-0, and the crowd was real hyped watching it and I got a lot of congratulations after winning. He stated he didn't now the matchup too well and has apparently never seen the custom moves I was using, but beating a top player feels soooooo satisfying and it gave me morale boost for everyone I played afterwards, if I beat him maybe I can beat the rest of them, and surprisingly I kinda did.

I also planned on using Sonic in this tournament and playing the blue guys , but he got nerfed a bit in the patch and if I want to Spinshot I have to change my cstick to tilts (I'm too used to having it for smashes, I don't think I should change just yet), so I never once played him yesterday because of that and I still lack the confidence to use him today except maybe in friendlies. But after my performance with Mega Man yesterday, I might have to main him instead of Greninja now.... Still going to play him though and after getting beaten a lot I'm even more determined to improve my Greninja than before and I think I know what I need to improve on most: the Neutral Game, Spacing, and Edgeguarding are the areas I think I have holes in when playing Ninja; the former being the most important.

The tournament continues in a little bit with 63 other people and I am to keep this up. Whoever I play, I hope you guys wish me good luck, and I wish y'all good luck in your tournaments too.

Whoa! Congrats, Pika Kong! That's awesome to hear! :0

Good luck with the rest of the tourney!

 

[Lavani]

I don't know why I never get alerts for this thread anymore ;;

Kill setups are combos that guarantee a kill. Yoshi doesn't have those. He just has strong moves that kill, but no way to combo into them.

Yoshi actually has jab1>downB as a combo at kill percents against fastfallers, and unfortunately Greninja falls under that category.

I think rage can mess it up for Yoshi though, idk. But it's a thing.

I know this is super off-topic, but earlier today I had a hypothesis that the percent decrease in Sonic's side-B would put it in range to clank with uncharged Shuriken (iIrc, in Brawl, grounded moves within 5% of another move would always clank). It was 10% before, putting it 7% above uncharged Shuriken, but now it's only a difference of 4%. Turns out I was right. I don't think this will drastically change the MU (I wouldn't doubt Shifting is still preferred in customs), but hey, every little bit helps!

Clank range has been within 9% in all Smash games; Samus' 25% full charge Charge Shot beats out Yoshi's 14% usmash, but clanks with Meta Knight's 16% fsmash. Uncharged Water Shuriken clanked Spin Dash prepatch too, I liked playing that MU with Greninja over Rosalina at one point for that reason.

I'd agree that Shifting's still better in customs on either way, especially now that Burning Spin Dash lost its invincibility (SS would harmlessly pass through BSD, WS would clank it out; now SS can just beat out all three spin dash options).

EDIT: Spin Dash's startup has invincibility until the apex of his little hop at the start for all three sideB variants, that may have caused the misconception now that I think about it.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't know why I never get alerts for this thread anymore ;;


Yoshi actually has jab1>downB as a combo at kill percents against fastfallers, and unfortunately Greninja falls under that category.

I think rage can mess it up for Yoshi though, idk. But it's a thing.

Maybe you unwatched the thread by accident? I dunno how the alert system works.

As for that combo... Huh, I didn't know that existed, well, that's something to keep in mind next time I play against a Yoshi.

 

[Jonarobin]

Anyone wanna do some Greninja Dittos for practice and help me learn the character a bit better? Just message me if you want to.

 

[momochuu]

diddy kong players denying that the nerfs affected him in a big way reminds me of when i denied greninja's nerfs and still claimed him top 5. the memories.

 

[KingHerpOfDerp]

I still think Greninja is top 5, we just don't have enough competent people playing as him. Btw, only Greninja in Tennessee.

 

[Kite0692]

So...just got home from another tourney. Got 4th this time outta like +180 people. Biggest tourney ever!
Lost to a Mario player in top 32 (2-1 really close) and to Charizard player in top 4 (3-1). I think Greninja wins both matches (or even at worst), but they just outplayed me. Still think I did fine.

Oh yeah, Greninja only

Matches were streamed, I will be posting the link here by tomorrow maybe...

 

[bc1910]

So...just got home from another tourney. Got 4th this time outta like +180 people. Biggest tourney ever!
Lost to a Mario player in top 32 (2-1 really close) and to Charizard player in top 4 (3-1). I think Greninja wins both matches (or even at worst), but they just outplayed me. Still think I did fine.

Oh yeah, Greninja only

Matches were streamed, I will be posting the link here by tomorrow maybe...

Great stuff, well done. Tons of respect for going Greninja only and not just breaking out the high tiers when things go wrong!

If Yoshi has a guaranteed jab 1 -> down B on us that's bad. Like, really bad. We'll have to respect him at high percents a lot... I feel like that could make landing our own kill moves really difficult. And unlike Fox, who has similar jab confirm nonsense, Yoshi doesn't have a linear, predictable recovery.

I wonder if Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling would get us out of that combo?

 

[Kite0692]

Great stuff, well done. Tons of respect for going Greninja only and not just breaking out the high tiers when things go wrong!

If Yoshi has a guaranteed jab 1 -> down B on us that's bad. Like, really bad. We'll have to respect him at high percents a lot... I feel like that could make landing our own kill moves really difficult. And unlike Fox, who has similar jab confirm nonsense, Yoshi doesn't have a linear, predictable recovery.

I wonder if Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling would get us out of that combo?

Thanks.

I keep saying Yoshi is one of Greninja's hardest matchup (besides Sheik and Fox) and nobody listen to me lmao.

 

[David Galanos]

I still think Greninja is top 5, we just don't have enough competent people playing as him. Btw, only Greninja in Tennessee.

I, don't know about that. Yeah I mean he's good but he has his limits and weaknesses that separate him from characters like luigi, sheik, pikachu, etc