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Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

Jaguar360

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Hey Guys!

Really happy to share this with you.

I got 2nd place at Avalon a 128 people tournament.

I only lost to the one and only Mr-R (Top 5 player in the world) and all my matches vs him were close!

Results can be found here http://smashboards.com/threads/avalon-u-november-7th-2015-the-netherlands-europe.422876/

I will share the videos as soon as they are uploaded.
Wow, there are two top Pikachus in your region? That's nice to see. Great stuff as always. What was it like fighting Mr. R?
 

Onyxsbayne

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Are there certain characters that can't be footstool comboed at 0%? Sometimes I can pull it off and other times I cant. In training, I go for the FFnair, miss the footstool, but get the Dair, (no spike though), then I use the Shuriken stall, then FFnair again, and then I can footstool Dair them, (not always, I'm not perfect). Is there an optimal percentage that can work on all characters that I can train with.
 

momochuu

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you can only footstool fast fallers and heavies after nair at 10~20%
 

Funkermonster

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So I was just scrolling through Google Images and I just happened to come across this lovely little image made by somebody. When I have time, I'm Gonna crop the left half of it out and make the right side my new avatar because reasons :awesome:


Carry on, Carry on.
 

BlazeFlipnotes

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I don't think I worded that right, I mean
In training mode majority of the time I can pull it off, in battle and online though I have a lot of trouble doing it

1. Input lag
2. All the moves flying around
 

TTYK

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Jaguar360

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Works with us.
Why does every AT work so well with Greninja lol? This lagless ledge getup, awesome perfect pivoting application, the RAR jump slide thing and Greninja arguably had the best DACUS in the game before it was removed. I love this character xD.
 

Snackss

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Low traction and fast movement, probably.

I don't know about that, though. SmashCorner is good at finding that kind of stuff, but a lot of it turns out to be extremely situational, unintuitive, and/ or just lacking in strong applications even as people insist it will somehow change the meta. Though seeing as this one is character and stage specific, I don't think it's a good thing that it exists.
 

FooltheFlames

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I'd like to try my hand at getting good with Greninja now, since I'm pretty good with all the other Pokemon characters.
And Greninja can do that new "lagless ledge cancel" AT now so it would be cool to utilize that with him.

Can someone share a really neat Greninja match video here? so i can see him best in action?

aaaand~ who would you guys say is the best Greninja right now? I'd watch his matches!
 

Onyxsbayne

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I'd like to try my hand at getting good with Greninja now, since I'm pretty good with all the other Pokemon characters.
And Greninja can do that new "lagless ledge cancel" AT now so it would be cool to utilize that with him.

Can someone share a really neat Greninja match video here? so i can see him best in action?

aaaand~ who would you guys say is the best Greninja right now? I'd watch his matches!
If you want to see some awesome Greninja videos, check this guys vids out, he's got some good matches -> http://youtu.be/YvA_kiIAHMg

As for pro players, aMSa is the one I've heard the most, he did pretty good at a couple big tournaments like Apex. There's this other guy called Some I've heard about lately, but I haven't looked into him yet.
 
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Jaguar360

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I'd like to try my hand at getting good with Greninja now, since I'm pretty good with all the other Pokemon characters.
And Greninja can do that new "lagless ledge cancel" AT now so it would be cool to utilize that with him.

Can someone share a really neat Greninja match video here? so i can see him best in action?

aaaand~ who would you guys say is the best Greninja right now? I'd watch his matches!
Some from Japan is currently the best Greninja. aMSa was the best for a while, but he's pretty much quit Smash 4 for Melee. If you check the Top 10 Videos of Each Character thread, you can find some great matches of some and a couple other Greninjas. There's already a thread in this subforum with more Greninja videos all in one place.

After watching some videos, I'd suggest to either play around with him for a while or start learning some of his combos. The more important ones are from n-air, d-tilt, u-tilt, u-throw and dash attack, but be sure to get to all of them as you learn the character. Hope this helps. Greninja is kind of a weird character to learn, but don't be discouraged.
 
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Snackss

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Not everything combos on every character, though. That applies to just about anybody because that's how this game is, but it can really hurt with Greninja not being able to get down tilt to up smash on some characters.

I don't know about Greninja videos. I don't feel like he's lacking more than the other characters I play when actually playing the game, but when you watch videos of him, he's really evasive and inefficient. It's not the most encouraging thing.
 

Jaguar360

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Not everything combos on every character, though. That applies to just about anybody because that's how this game is, but it can really hurt with Greninja not being able to get down tilt to up smash on some characters.

I don't know about Greninja videos. I don't feel like he's lacking more than the other characters I play when actually playing the game, but when you watch videos of him, he's really evasive and inefficient. It's not the most encouraging thing.
Evasive and inefficient? I don't know what you're getting at here. If you look at any of those sets in the top 10 link, you're getting amazing Greninja play. Greninja's evasive because he has the mobility to be evasive...he's a ninja after all. And what is inefficient supposed to mean...if the Greninja wins the match I'd assume that he's done a pretty efficient job.

About the combos...that really goes without saying. Like you said, it applies to every character. Greninja has no more problems with this than Sheik, Pikachu or Zelda. When you're in a match, you just need to estimate at what percents things work depending on your opponent's weight and fall speed.
 

Snackss

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Greninja isn't nearly as safe as Pikachu or Sheik. If they miss their chance for a combo, no problem, they barely put themselves at risk to do it, they can do it again anyway. Greninja at least has stronger KO moves than them, but he needs those because he's not even remotely in the same league as far as frame data. The combos don't all work on every character, even if he needs them to KO, is what I'm saying and something to keep in mind.

Greninja is evasive because he HAS to be evasive, not just because he can be. He doesn't have the frame data or hitboxes to be anything else. He can't afford to not be evasive. And you'll notice games where Greninja is involved often go below 2 minutes left. As for inefficient, I guess it would be more like that he doesn't keep up the pressure the way you might expect. He's a fast character who's very reliant on footsies and spacing, which is not what you expect from a "fast" character. Look at the Some video against a Captain Falcon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcp2kSTN8Lg). He's frequently standing still, throwing a shuriken, or running away. When he does get a hit, it's a single hit that doesn't lead to any meaningful pressure or followups. Obviously this isn't unique to only Greninja, but as a fast character who doesn't have the traits you would expect of a fast character, it's noticeable. He's fast and trick people into thinking he's dangerous, but if they understand when he is and isn't dangerous, such as not airdodging after a down throw because Greninja doesn't even have a followup, then things can drag on. Of course he at least has a KO throw, so if you miss or never have the window for a KO setup, it's not too demanding to get them to 150%+ and up throw. Might be too hard on the character to describe it as "inefficient."
 
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ROBnWatch

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Greninja isn't nearly as safe as Pikachu or Sheik. If they miss their chance for a combo, no problem, they barely put themselves at risk to do it, they can do it again anyway. Greninja at least has stronger KO moves than them, but he needs those because he's not even remotely in the same league as far as frame data. The combos don't all work on every character, even if he needs them to KO, is what I'm saying and something to keep in mind.

Greninja is evasive because he HAS to be evasive, not just because he can be. He doesn't have the frame data or hitboxes to be anything else. He can't afford to not be evasive. And you'll notice games where Greninja is involved often go below 2 minutes left. As for inefficient, I guess it would be more like that he doesn't keep up the pressure the way you might expect. He's a fast character who's very reliant on footsies and spacing, which is not what you expect from a "fast" character. Look at the Some video against a Captain Falcon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcp2kSTN8Lg). He's frequently standing still, throwing a shuriken, or running away. When he does get a hit, it's a single hit that doesn't lead to any meaningful pressure or followups. Obviously this isn't unique to only Greninja, but as a fast character who doesn't have the traits you would expect of a fast character, it's noticeable. He's fast and trick people into thinking he's dangerous, but if they understand when he is and isn't dangerous, such as not airdodging after a down throw because Greninja doesn't even have a followup, then things can drag on. Of course he at least has a KO throw, so if you miss or never have the window for a KO setup, it's not too demanding to get them to 150%+ and up throw. Might be too hard on the character to describe it as "inefficient."
Really? Because Down Throw to Forward Smash usually works out for me from low to mid percents.
 

FooltheFlames

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If you want to see some awesome Greninja videos, check this guys vids out, he's got some good matches -> http://youtu.be/YvA_kiIAHMg

As for pro players, aMSa is the one I've heard the most, he did pretty good at a couple big tournaments like Apex. There's this other guy called Some I've heard about lately, but I haven't looked into him yet.
Some from Japan is currently the best Greninja. aMSa was the best for a while, but he's pretty much quit Smash 4 for Melee. If you check the Top 10 Videos of Each Character thread, you can find some great matches of some and a couple other Greninjas. There's already a thread in this subforum with more Greninja videos all in one place.

After watching some videos, I'd suggest to either play around with him for a while or start learning some of his combos. The more important ones are from n-air, d-tilt, u-tilt, u-throw and dash attack, but be sure to get to all of them as you learn the character. Hope this helps. Greninja is kind of a weird character to learn, but don't be discouraged.
Many Thankies to you both~<3 .^ ^.
I want to get good with all the Pokemon characters! Mewtwo was one of my mains back in Melee, so I know all about how weird characters handle~
 

Jaguar360

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That lagless get up technique, does that work on Omega stages?
Haven't tested, but it should work on the Omega counterparts of the stages that it normally works on since the ledges remain the same.
Really? Because Down Throw to Forward Smash usually works out for me from low to mid percents.
It's not a true combo, but it's a decent setup at least. The standard U-throw -> U-air is usually a safer alternative at those low-mid percents. It's also worth mentioning using D-tilt after D-throw on fast fallers at low percents to create a mixup between grabbing again or dash attack -> f-air.
 

ROBnWatch

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Haven't tested, but it should work on the Omega counterparts of the stages that it normally works on since the ledges remain the same.

It's not a true combo, but it's a decent setup at least. The standard U-throw -> U-air is usually a safer alternative at those low-mid percents. It's also worth mentioning using D-tilt after D-throw on fast fallers at low percents to create a mixup between grabbing again or dash attack -> f-air.
Ya, I guess so.
 

Funkermonster

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Tournament last Sunday, placed around 17th out of 42 I think. Not really as high as I wanted to be, and my day was pretty mediocre overall. I haven't been to any tournies since the shieldstun patch came (none at all in October) and I've only recently returned to my scene about 2 weeks ago from a local, and my placingthere wasn't as high as I wanted to either. My mom's confiscated my console yet again for quite a few weeks now so I had almost no practice time at all prior to this one (my only other time to brush up being that local). This is the one set that day that I was actually satisfied about, playing on stream vs my region's best :4rob: and #8 PR Member, I came very close to beating him and took him to Game 3 but one bad mistake in the end cost me the game.


Afterwards, I was knocked out of the tournament by a Little Mac player (who I consistently beat the last time I played him) and got caught up in friendlies with this dude who beat me again and again and again and I was getting pretty mad and salty so I just wanted to go home. This is the 2nd tournament I've been to in awhile and I'm already off to a bad start and I can't train since my game is still gone, and this was a pretty awful day for me overall and my morale was pounded badly. I wonder how all this would've went if I actually had some to train the day before the event.... I also pulled an all-nighter that day drawing pictures, playing Mega Man 1, and doing a bit of homework and I basically got no sleep at all and I didn't indulge on any caffeine either, but somehow I felt pretty wide awake even as the event went on so I don't think that hurt me much (if at all). I didn't even feel sleepy went I went home and went to bed a bit late.... how am I still awake? Lol

Anyhoo, if anybody's got advice/criticism with the set video here, plz lay it on me. I'd post it in the video thread, but it seems pretty dead since not many people post there and I don't have many other improvement options with my console gone. I want to do better next time than I did with my last two events and this is probably my last hope.
 

Snackss

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Staying up all night will have an effect even if you think you feel awake.

I know it's hard to stay still against anyone with a projectile, but sometimes you just have to walk and wait for an opening rather than always be moving around. That's just something everyone struggles with at some point though, someone else might have something more in-depth to say.

It was discussed a while back, but what's that thing where you land then immediately turn around and do a down tilt and Greninja slides forward?
 

Steve.Stone

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I don't know if this would work against this specific player, depending on if he can tech consistently, but I would've tried to back air him and stage spike him while he was recovering since R.O.B recovers low all the time.
 

Jaguar360

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Staying up all night will have an effect even if you think you feel awake.

I know it's hard to stay still against anyone with a projectile, but sometimes you just have to walk and wait for an opening rather than always be moving around. That's just something everyone struggles with at some point though, someone else might have something more in-depth to say.

It was discussed a while back, but what's that thing where you land then immediately turn around and do a down tilt and Greninja slides forward?
I think it was called Sliding Pivots or something similar. It's not just with d-tilt btw; you can do any move after it. All of Greninja's tilts benefit from it a good amount. If it worked with dash grab over standing grab, it would be a really good mixup tool.

edit: found vid
 
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ROBnWatch

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I don't know if this would work against this specific player, depending on if he can tech consistently, but I would've tried to back air him and stage spike him while he was recovering since R.O.B recovers low all the time.
Additionally R.O.B.'s recovery took a hit from Brawl to now, being that it has way less horizontal movement. If a R.O.B. is coming back to the stage from being launched sideways, try to gimp him by throwing out some projectiles, maybe some aerials. And make sure if he throws out a gyro that you keep him away from it and hold onto it for yourself as long as possible.
 

Wald0

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Yo, Samus main here. I always have mained Samus but I also have always loved Greninja and almost always played him in friendlies. I was wondering if Someone could give me a run-down of his good/bad MUs to see if he's a viable co-main/secondary.
 

SteadyDisciple

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Yo, Samus main here. I always have mained Samus but I also have always loved Greninja and almost always played him in friendlies. I was wondering if Someone could give me a run-down of his good/bad MUs to see if he's a viable co-main/secondary.
Greninja's only bad matchups currently are considered to be Sheik, Sonic, Fox, and possibly Pikachu but possibly not since the shield patch, with all others at least breaking even. You can find the numbers here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...read-s3-week-4-mario-sonic-11-9-11-16.369356/

With that said, Greninja has a notoriously high learning curve, so keeping him as a secondary isn't advised by most.
 

Wald0

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Greninja's only bad matchups currently are considered to be Sheik, Sonic, Fox, and possibly Pikachu but possibly not since the shield patch, with all others at least breaking even. You can find the numbers here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...read-s3-week-4-mario-sonic-11-9-11-16.369356/

With that said, Greninja has a notoriously high learning curve, so keeping him as a secondary isn't advised by most.
High learning curves don't bother me that much...but asides from that thanks! This really helps (a few Samus mains just decided to pick up Greninja as a secondary, weird)
 

Steve.Stone

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Meh, as difficult as it may be to learn Greninja it's well worth it for all the crazy fun stuff he can do!
 

Funkermonster

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Some super hype moment from a set between my state's best Jigglypuff (who was on PR last season) and arguably best Greninja we have (a.k.a. my rival of some sorts), it made us all scream loud when it happened and somebody saved this gif of it somehow. He still lost the set overall (That's what'cha get for taunting!), but it was hyyyyype.

http://gfycat.com/SpiritedPartialAkitainu
 
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elusiveTranscendent

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Some super hype moment from a set between my state's best Jigglypuff (who was on PR last season) and arguably best Greninja we have (a.k.a. my rival of some sorts), it made us all scream loud when it happened and somebody saved this gif of it somehow. He still lost the set overall (That's what'cha get for taunting!), but it was hyyyyype.

http://gfycat.com/SpiritedPartialAkitainu
Wait. You're in the same region as Stroder? I didn't know this.
 

Jonarobin

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Anyone have any tips with landing with Greninja? I feel like this is a problem I have, I end up going towards an opponents shield with ff-nair or ff-fair (which I can't space too well) or just falling away but predictably enough that i end up getting punished... I suppose I could use hydro pump, but that can be chased and could be stage dependent...
Should I be trying to Nair people if I'm higher than a short hop?

I need to practice spacing FF-fair somehow too...

Also any thoughts or tips on the Pikachu matchup? I had some good advice from the Pikachu boards, but I'm curious what you all will have to say about Greninja's side of the matchup.

EDIT: Is there a thread for jab lock situations for Greninja? What can we lock with? I know jab and first hit of bair at least, but are there any other moves?
 
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Snackss

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I hate the Pikachu matchup. He gets in too easily and is hard to get rid of. And if I switch to Ryu, half of Ryu's attacks don't even work because Pikachu is 2 pixels tall. But I haven't played Pikachu since I actually got decent with Ryu.

I don't have too hard of a time landing with Greninja. He can fall pretty quickly, doesn't have much landing lag, you can space a backwards forward air sometimes, mixup with Hydro Pump. He must have some of the better landing options, you're probably just trying too hard to be aggressive which is exactly what any opponent is waiting for.

It's really tough for me to use the c-stick as Attack for Greninja. Feels like I don't even know how to play when I don't have easy running up smash punish.
 

Mili

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I hate the Pikachu matchup. He gets in too easily and is hard to get rid of. And if I switch to Ryu, half of Ryu's attacks don't even work because Pikachu is 2 pixels tall. But I haven't played Pikachu since I actually got decent with Ryu.

I don't have too hard of a time landing with Greninja. He can fall pretty quickly, doesn't have much landing lag, you can space a backwards forward air sometimes, mixup with Hydro Pump. He must have some of the better landing options, you're probably just trying too hard to be aggressive which is exactly what any opponent is waiting for.

It's really tough for me to use the c-stick as Attack for Greninja. Feels like I don't even know how to play when I don't have easy running up smash punish.
I main :4ryu: but I play :4greninja: on the 3DS (due to a lack of DLC) and always play him when I'm screwing around but I can hardly believe that it's possible to main / use both in a competitive aspect. Greninja doesn't really cover Ryu's bad matchups and he's got a ridiculously high learning curve because the the technical aspect. How do you possibly keep up competitive with both characters?
 

Snackss

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It's not about matchups or secondaries. Greninja has been my main character for 8-9 months so I'm not going to stop playing him, but now I feel more comfortable with and need more practice with Ryu. Haven't gone to tournaments and played both of them or anything.
 

Blaziking17

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Anyone have any tips with landing with Greninja? I feel like this is a problem I have, I end up going towards an opponents shield with ff-nair or ff-fair (which I can't space too well) or just falling away but predictably enough that i end up getting punished... I suppose I could use hydro pump, but that can be chased and could be stage dependent...
Should I be trying to Nair people if I'm higher than a short hop?

I need to practice spacing FF-fair somehow too...
Hydro Pump can be an option, but it does have some start-up, so good thing you are aware of that. I would say try to mix up your approach options. You don't want to go in too often with Greninja. Try fading away from the opponent as you're landing, and throw out a small WS. That will make them either take the hit or put up their shield. At that point, you can dash grab, or if they're aware of it and roll back, tech chase and pivot grab or throw out a dash attack.
Work on spacing your moves consistently. It's all practice.

Also any thoughts or tips on the Pikachu matchup? I had some good advice from the Pikachu boards, but I'm curious what you all will have to say about Greninja's side of the matchup.

EDIT: Is there a thread for jab lock situations for Greninja? What can we lock with? I know jab and first hit of bair at least, but are there any other moves?
Not sure on the thread, but from my experience, the Pikachu matchup can be handled well. It does require more precision with aerials since Pikachu has a smaller body frame. QA is another aspect that needs to be considered since it can be annoying at times. Finally, be aware of the setups into Thunder and Up Smash since they're the more common kill options Pikachu's go for.
 
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