Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[momochuu]

good stuff

 

[Starman147]

I got this on Mistereric yesterday when I played him on Smashladder:

The whole set was also posted on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3sUQJgQtL8

 

[BlazeFlipnotes]

http://youtu.be/6qvAImnd9CU
Can someone please tell me stuff I can improve on with greninja? I went on fg and battled a random guy to record this lol

 

[Guimartgon]

http://youtu.be/6qvAImnd9CU
Can someone please tell me stuff I can improve on with greninja? I went on fg and battled a random guy to record this lol

While I'm not the best player out there you certainly throw out a ton of random moves like randy Usmashes and Utilts when your opponent is a mile away. For some reason your opponent wasn't punishing the Nairs that you were throwing out on his face, with Nair, try to cross your opponent in the air so that you land behind him, that makes it a lot safer on shield. You could also work a little more on your spacing since you are throwing out all this Fairs, dash attacks e.t.c. , moves with excellent range in your opponent's face and other times you throw Fairs and Bairs while being either close to your opponent but overshooting a lot(like in minute 1:10).

Essentially you are not accomplishing anything with the moves you throw out, Greninja doesn't have sheik's Fair, with Greninja every time you attack, shield and even every time you jump or move somewhere near your opponent you are making quite a commitment. Try to get a better understanding on how Greninja's moves work, mess around in training mode with his range and ground and aerial speed. Watch some of the higher level players play and while watching think of the way they are moving and when they throw an attack look at where they are aiming and how it works. Compare how your game looks(for example starting from 2:20 till the end of the game you and your opponent look like two kids jumping and hitting A randomly until one of them screwed up by getting hit by randy side B and then died in the stupidest way possible)

Also you don't seem to know many of Greninja's combo set ups, you could take a look at them in the thread about Greninja's true combos.

 

[BlazeFlipnotes]

While I'm not the best player out there you certainly throw out a ton of random moves like randy Usmashes and Utilts when your opponent is a mile away. For some reason your opponent wasn't punishing the Nairs that you were throwing out on his face, with Nair, try to cross your opponent in the air so that you land behind him, that makes it a lot safer on shield. You could also work a little more on your spacing since you are throwing out all this Fairs, dash attacks e.t.c. , moves with excellent range in your opponent's face and other times you throw Fairs and Bairs while being either close to your opponent but overshooting a lot(like in minute 1:10).

Essentially you are not accomplishing anything with the moves you throw out, Greninja doesn't have sheik's Fair, with Greninja every time you attack, shield and even every time you jump or move somewhere near your opponent you are making quite a commitment. Try to get a better understanding on how Greninja's moves work, mess around in training mode with his range and ground and aerial speed. Watch some of the higher level players play and while watching think of the way they are moving and when they throw an attack look at where they are aiming and how it works. Compare how your game looks(for example starting from 2:20 till the end of the game you and your opponent look like two kids jumping and hitting A randomly until one of them screwed up by getting hit by randy side B and then died in the stupidest way possible)

Also you don't seem to know many of Greninja's combo set ups, you could take a look at them in the thread about Greninja's true combos.

as for the combo thing, I do know it's that I didn't get to really pull them off in this match lol, I feel I should fight a better player on smash ladder or something, and the random up smash and u tilts were by accident, thanks tho

 

[PHaZeX3R0]

Using grounded footstool > dair > aerial footstool to have an easier time landing b-air reset into jank stuffz ◥θ┴θ◤

Setup works on majority of the cast. Mi made a listarino .-. :
http://prntscr.com/8ub9c6

 

[TTYK]

Using grounded footstool > dair > aerial footstool to have an easier time landing b-air reset into jank stuffz ◥θ┴θ◤

Setup works on majority of the cast. Mi made a listarino .-. :
http://prntscr.com/8ub9c6

Yup, that one european guy did that. I forgot his name. And yeah, I have been practicing that combo for the last two weeks.

 

[Starman147]

Using grounded footstool > dair > aerial footstool to have an easier time landing b-air reset into jank stuffz ◥θ┴θ◤

Setup works on majority of the cast. Mi made a listarino .-. :
http://prntscr.com/8ub9c6

I've spent the last 2 hours trying to do that, the inputs actually are not super difficult (and this was on the 3DS, my poor hands), but I never try to do the stylish things you do. Usually I either go f-smash if the opponents closer to the ledge or d-tilt to up-smash if I'm closer.

I also attempted to try doing the combo from an up-air spike -> dair -> footstool -> bair reset but it only seems to work on larger characters, because Greninja goes too high from the footstool to hit smaller ones. I tried testing on R.O.B., which worked, and Sheik, which did not work.

 

[FullMoon]

Nevermind. I'm pretty sure it works on everybody though.

 

[Starman147]

I tested it with the CPU on control this time (before it would always get up quick enough before I could fast fall and bair reset) but Sheik's prone position is too low for Greninja's bair to connect. However, when I did the combo Phazex showed against Sheik, she bounces just high enough when she hits the ground to connect with the bair and get a reset.

 

[PHaZeX3R0]

NotLikeThis

 

[Starman147]

NotLikeThis

I don't know why, but the time this was posted seems so appropriate.

Also, would it be viable to get this kind of setup in the neutral or only as a punish?

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

Dash Attack OP :^) http://gfycat.com/ReflectingJealousHatchetfish#

 

[Jonarobin]

Dash Attack OP :^) http://gfycat.com/ReflectingJealousHatchetfish#

Only works for two frames while someone's snapping to the ledge?

thats sweet
Viable?

 

[FullMoon]

Looks more like BF's silly ledges to me

 

[istudying]

Heya i uploaded a new video showing a mixup you can do when being up b'd by Zero Suit Samus. It involves side b canceling.

If anyone is interested in seeing more and want to follow my Greninja adventures. Please do so by following me on twitter <3 https://twitter.com/istudying

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

Only works for two frames while someone's snapping to the ledge?

thats sweet
Viable?

that's a thing for everyone, I tend to do it with dtilt the most

 

[TTYK]

Yeah! That was who it was. It was istudying who found out that combo. He pulled it off at his local or regional I think.

 

[Ludiloco]

Good stuff to PHaZeX3R0 and istudying , gonna try these babies out later today!

Although I'm not sure if that zero suit was in lag or not. Definitely looks like she had enough time to shield? If she was in lag that's an amazing setup.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Gee, this place is much more competitive than my other threads! I guess I'll try to contribute with a little something I've found (though you guys may already know about it).

I've found it quite easy to get a quick Forward Smash right after a Down Throw in low-mid percents. Use this knowledge to your liking if you didn't already know about it...

 

[Snackss]

Looks more like BF's silly ledges to me

I've had it work on Town and City once. So even if it's ledge specific it's not only Battlefield.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

So, I need to say that I desperately, DESPERATELY, want someone to make a Greninja montage, set to "The Ninja Song". Ninja music with so many opportunities for terrible SSB4 jokes...

... and of course when I say "someone" I mean "someone other than me", because as much as I love the frog my god am I bad at playing him.

 

[Snackss]

If I had a capture card and knowledge of how to make videos well I could at least make a quick tutorial of important points for Greninja beginners. But I don't have those things so someone else can do it :^)

Since my internet is still busted I can only play CPU. Sometimes it's good because they don't fall for mixups so you need actual patience and fundamentals. Other times they just CPU as hard as they can and grab you out of moves over and over.

 

[istudying]

If I had a capture card and knowledge of how to make videos well I could at least make a quick tutorial of important points for Greninja beginners. But I don't have those things so someone else can do it :^)

Since my internet is still busted I can only play CPU. Sometimes it's good because they don't fall for mixups so you need actual patience and fundamentals. Other times they just CPU as hard as they can and grab you out of moves over and over.

Yeah! I am interested in making a basic tutorial for Greninja.

 

[Jonarobin]

I had a really frustrating online set against a sonic awhile back and he just spammed spindash so much and I couldn't figure out how to not get punished/punish him and ended up spamming up smash a lot which didn't really help and I got soooo frustrated lol...

So... anti-Sonic measures? does shuriken need to be charged to get him out of it or

EDIT: What's a good way to practice/initiate u-air spike? its just short hop up-air and then fast fall at a certain time?

I'll look at the thread, but it's something I think I could use in my Greninja play, I wanna get more out of this, dair, and footstooling...

 

[Partial_Credit]

I've found that the best way to FF uair is to simultaneously flick the control stick downwards and the C-stick upwards. It can be tricky to do after short hopping because the timing is pretty tight. Just practice a lot.

 

[Snackss]

Not so much a full tutorial as just a montage of tips and basic Greninja techniques. Down tilt to up smash, using shuriken to space and stay facing the right direction.

Playing a bunch of Fox, I don't feel like it's worth using Greninja against Pikachu anymore. Lots of effort to hit the stupid yellow rat with anything and hard to keep him out without any fast hitboxes.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Not so much a full tutorial as just a montage of tips and basic Greninja techniques. Down tilt to up smash, using shuriken to space and stay facing the right direction.

Playing a bunch of Fox, I don't feel like it's worth using Greninja against Pikachu anymore. Lots of effort to hit the stupid yellow rat with anything and hard to keep him out without any fast hitboxes.

When my friend and I battle, we always somehow end up with a Greninja (me) vs. Pikachu (him) match. It always comes down to the last stock, and I always win through use of a successful Counter to Pikachu's Side Smash or Back Air.

 

[Funkermonster]

I had a really frustrating online set against a sonic awhile back and he just spammed spindash so much and I couldn't figure out how to not get punished/punish him and ended up spamming up smash a lot which didn't really help and I got soooo frustrated lol...

So... anti-Sonic measures? does shuriken need to be charged to get him out of it or

If the Sonic is spamming spindash and doing little else, you actually have a lot of options against it depending on what he does. For one, the spindash itself has very little priority and will clank with a lot of moves (and ever since it got a damage nerf a few patches ago, now more moves will beat it outright), even a jab or tilt will stop him dead in his tracks and even a weak move like 's lemons take him out of it. Against an actual good Sonic, they have various ways of mixing it up so I wouldn't recommend it most of the, but the one you described sounds pretty bad so it might work to just try and jab or dtilt him out of it if you ever come across one like that again. On top of this, the spindash is not safe on shield either and you've got 3 options against that if his spin hits your shield:

1. If Sonic jumps away after hitting your shield,all you need to do is Jump OoS and punish with Bair or Uair depending on whether he's above or behind you..... and a LOT of Sonics jump away after touching your shield.
2. Some Sonics will use spring and dair if they touch your shield, in which case you can probably just shadow sneak or smash attack his landing. Sonic's landing options in general mare complete ass, and just about anytime you got him above you he's in a really bad position. Uairing Sonic with Greninja is pretty effective, and sometimes a charged Shuriken can stop him from safely touching the ground too. Aside from Spring to Dair, all he can really do when landing is just Bair (which has waaaaay too much landing lag) and Nair (which is easy to shieldgrab, and Greninja can just up tilt or usmash it anyway due to their disjoints)
3. If he keeps spinning past you, just chase after him and punish the screech stop animation. If you're familiar with or have played his own games (particularly the first 4 games on the Genesis days), I think you'll notice the same sound effect from them as it happens.

The spindash itself is really not that great, its the various mixups and ATs he has out of it that makes the move so great (Spinshots, Shield Cancel Spins, Instant Spin Dash Jumps, just to name a few). Any Sonic who does nothing but spin to win is a fool or a newbie who lacks true experience with the character, and as long as you remember these beating Bad Sonics like that shouldn't be much of an issue anymore. Overallits still in his favor MU-wise if he's actually smart though, doesn't care about Shurikens much due to his speed, has better frame data, and he can get his damage more easily than you can. Saying this all as a former Sonic main too.

___________________________________________________
On a side note, out of curiousity who do you guys think are all the characters Greninja loses/potentially to? From top of my head I personally perceive these as bad MUs, based on my experiences.


I kind of lack experience against these guys or use theorycraft for a few of them so I'm not going to outright call them unfavorable just yet, but I have come to find them pretty annoying so farand am keeping an eye on them as potential threats., with customs I think could give Gren a run for his money too.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Heh heh, R.O.B. gives everyone a run for their money...

 

[Jonarobin]

Ness: probably at least +1 for ness but I haven't played a lot of Ness recently
Sonic: I haven't played many sonics, but feels hard to hit him so feels like a disadvantage

Fox: 50/50 or +1 fox

Sheik: I probably haven't played a good sheik, because I actually feel pretty good on this matchup

Pikachu: its pretty bad but not unwinnable, +1 pika

Megaman, rob, captain falcon, with customs: haven't played these with customs, but megamans definitely a great character,
Megaman w/o customs: I feel pretty good about my chances against most megaman players from my megaman experience
Rob w/o customs: I feel like I have a lot of trouble with R.O.B. in general...
Captain falcon: I've been beat pretty bad by some captain falcons, but I think greninja has advantages that put him at +1 or even at least

Pit: He has quick smashes and attacks, even or +1 gren
Rosa: Rosa's hard, but probably +1 gren
Lucario: even or +1 lucario i'd say
Marth: even or +1 gren
Ryu: never had a tough time against ryu as greninja... ever that I recall, shuriken and speed totally owns him it feels like, but majorly skilled ryus might outclass gren, +1 gren
Wario: Not sure, haven’t played enough wario
Mario: +1 mario, I feel like his size and versatility give him at least a slight advantage, could be even
ZSS: even or +1 gren I’d say, probably even
Villager: Hard to rate this matchup, but even I think

sorry smashboards kept going out while I was writing it, so sorry some of these aren’t that detailed

 

[PHaZeX3R0]

Shenanigans
¯\_◥θ┴θ◤_/¯

 

[Funkermonster]

Shenanigans
¯\_◥θ┴θ◤_/¯

As much as I hated that level, The pyramid cave music from SA2 you had in there just made it more awesome

 

[TheRealDonquavious]

Shenanigans
¯\_◥θ┴θ◤_/¯

Was the ROB in that video Syde7? Cuz he's one of my friends from my state, he said he got to play you and that you pulled off some crazy stuff. I'm studying your stuff currently, I'm pretty adept at footstool stuff but I've still got stuff to learn

 

[Jonarobin]

How to practice Dair/footstool combos like PHaZeX3R0 's great stuff? Is there any simple bread and butter combos i should practice or anything i can do to "ease into" the inputs?

 

[BlazeFlipnotes]

How can I practice footstool combos? Every time I do it on a moving opponent I completely mess it up
They keep di'ing away or something

 

[Jetkick]

How can I practice footstool combos? Every time I do it on a moving opponent I completely mess it up
They keep di'ing away or something

youre probably not going for the footstool fast enuff

 

[Partial_Credit]

How are you guys able to consistently footstool on the bounce after landing a dair spike? Whenever I try to practice it, I usually end up missing it and having to wait until after the apex of the bounce to get it. Is it a matter of inputting jump as soon as possible or something else?

 

[momochuu]

its percent specific, they bounce higher the higher the percent.

 

[Partial_Credit]

Yeah, but if I try to practice in training mode at say, 110% and spam the jump button immediately after contact, sometimes I'll get the footstool immediately, but a lot of times I won't. Are footstools like techs in that they won't work if you hit the input too early?