The Plumber's Crack - Mario General

[The_Enlightenment_]

Its a misconception that marios melee uair was better because it was stronger, but docs had far more utility and combod at higher percentages, better usage against floaties, better hit angle to keep foes in front of you and allowing for more leniency on uair juggle>fair finisher on fast fallers. Not to mention that uair works like a mid air jab and can transition into nearly anything doc wants at low-mid damage

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Allow me to enlighten you, mario has a very quick uair and bair which allow him to finish mid air and fast fall without taking end lag. If you try l canceling you might interfere you your momentum with the sheild input, and the fact that you dont need to worry about as many button presses allows you to input uairs faster. Unfortunately mario is using his inferior melee uair rather than docs which combod better, but as long as you always hit with the front of his feet or the back if they are behind you then you should be able to land it consistently

Wait, so you combo by Uairing without even having to L-cancel because the move finishes before you fastfall and touch the ground?
Everything I thought I knew was a lie D:

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wait, so you combo by Uairing without even having to L-cancel because the move finishes before you fastfall and touch the ground?
Everything I thought I knew was a lie D:

Uair and bair can be finished well before you even touch the ground. I also believe it has auto cancel frames anyway.

 

[GMaster171]

This wasn't general knowledge? Man I gotta post here more rofl.

Every move has autocancel frames, both early and late in the move. its why its possible to AC a dair from a sh with good timing.

 

[Mr.Random]

Does anyone want a couple more things added to Mario? I feel he's still missing something. I also want them to take off the extra growth on his down throw since it was fine in 2.1. More growth is bad not good. Less growth allows more opportunities for Fair or Fsmash

 

[Gallo69]

Hey errrrr1. Was wondering what you guys think mario's good or bad MUs are at this point of the metagame.
I've been having trouble with marth and fox in particular. Any defensive tips for the fox MU? It feels like there is no other option other than buffering a roll away once a good fox starts pressuring.

 

[GMaster171]

Best matchups would be anyone who cant get through or around fireballs, namely all of the fatties rofl.

Worst imo would have to be Marth, Fox and MK. Marth has the range, Fox has the speed, MK has both and they both beat us if we are against too much. I haven't played any good foxes, but I can see why it would be bad :/

Buffering a roll might be the only thing we have... our shield grab is short and they have to be extremely sloppy to get caught by it. Our only other options are dair, which is fairly slow, nair which is faster but still probably not good enough, or up-b which (probably like Samus) is only safe with a platform above us, and even then probably not the best.

 

[Gallo69]

Fox also nairs his way through fireballs. He's really tough for me but definitely beatable so im not complaining... I just have to get better. I know you can chaingrab him and other fast fallers but I don't know the percents.
With marth it's just hard to find a way in, and he swats away fireballs pretty easily.
Metaknight is 50/50 imo. I play the matchup a ton with gurukid and it seems like whoever lands the first hit can just camp the rest of the match. It also depends on if the stage has a top platform. I almost always beat guru on FD or PS2, but he almost always wins on BF or FoD.

 

[GMaster171]

Yea, plats are bad against MK, once hes below us its impossible to get down.

Does Guru ever camp with multi jumps, down-b and dair? Like sitting high and at an angle in front of you? Our local MK player does that and I can't find a response to it >.>. Basically if it were DL and you were center stage, hed be above the left/right plat and retreat to the top plat when hes running out of jumps, and he just dairs or drops to punish anything too commital.

 

[uCooL]

This wasn't general knowledge? Man I gotta post here more rofl.

Every move has autocancel frames, both early and late in the move. its why its possible to AC a dair from a sh with good timing.

So to be 100 percent clear, i can SH b-air and u-air and not have to L-cancel?

 

[GMaster171]

bair, fair (i think), dair and uair are all auto-cancellable within a shorthop, it all depends on when/if you fast fall.

do a SH dair and dont fastfall at all, when you land at the end of the move, you will have no landing lag

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

bair, fair (i think), dair and uair are all auto-cancellable within a shorthop, it all depends on when/if you fast fall.

do a SH dair and dont fastfall at all, when you land at the end of the move, you will have no landing lag

Any way to practice this/somehow tell when we get the timing right?

 

[Bombitty]

Looking at Mario's landing animation will tell you if you got the timing right. If after the move your landing looks the same as if you had empty hopped, then you're doing it right.

 

[gnosis]

Metaknight is a damn annoying matchup.

I feel like other matchups I can interact a lot more, and sort of set up camp in my opponent's proximity and proceed to pressure them and react positively to their attempts to break pressure/counter-pressure. There's a lot of game going on. But Metaknight is so fast and all his moves just slice right through Mario's that actively interacting with him seems like a terrible idea. It's a doable matchup, but only by laming out through camping fireballs and just waiting for enough mistakes to punish that you can kill with dthrow->fair or a dd back->smash. edit: and obviously this is stage dependent; much harder to do on stages that aren't fd/ps/smashville.

Also I suck at edgeguarding him.

 

[Gallo69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gR_Oh7B4R4

Here's a random set I found on my cpu with me vs guru in the Metaknight MU.

 

[gnosis]

I need to use more dtilt. I didn't know it was so much better in PM lol. I super appreciate that vid, it's tough to find vids for all the different matchups now that there's so many more viable characters than Melee.

 

[Gallo69]

No prob at all. Dtilt is amazing, I use it for mix ups a lot. The main drawback is that it can be CCd up to really high percents.
Speaking of which, something I wasn't utilizing enough in that set against guru is CCing. One of MK's major flaws is that almost all of his moves can be CCd, even at high percents, and punished. If you can get a read on a MK player - when he comes in with attacks you can use CC dtilt, dsmash or grab to your advantage.

 

[gnosis]

I'm constantly CCing and it did not seem to be effective against the person I was playing (lots of landing on the other side of me, or hitting me before dsmash can come out, or if I do something else he just cc's it and punishes, or I get knocked back too far to grab, etc.). I'll try it more and see what I can do with it though.

And yeah, that's why I never even really considered d-tilt, I'm very wary of things that can be countered by just holding down. But things like slipping in a dtilt after an uair while they're still airborne, stuff I wouldn't of considered cuz I kinda wrote dtilt off.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yea, plats are bad against MK, once hes below us its impossible to get down.

Does Guru ever camp with multi jumps, down-b and dair? Like sitting high and at an angle in front of you? Our local MK player does that and I can't find a response to it >.>. Basically if it were DL and you were center stage, hed be above the left/right plat and retreat to the top plat when hes running out of jumps, and he just dairs or drops to punish anything too commital.

My local mk camps with DA dair. I just DD close to where he is, so his angle gets f'ed up then, WD/run behind him as he is coming down and dsmash that or just run away, granted that I don't get hit.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

No prob at all. Dtilt is amazing, I use it for mix ups a lot. The main drawback is that it can be CCd up to really high percents.
Speaking of which, something I wasn't utilizing enough in that set against guru is CCing. One of MK's major flaws is that almost all of his moves can be CCd, even at high percents, and punished. If you can get a read on a MK player - when he comes in with attacks you can use CC dtilt, dsmash or grab to your advantage.

Which moves can't be cc? And how high on avg should I expect cc to work?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Thanks for the vid, Gallo! If you find any more lying around you should upload em, they might be of help!

On an unrelated note, I'm having trouble convincing a few people who are bothering me about my usage of Mario. They keep bothering me about how he needs a nerf or something, and despite me bringing up the whole stubby arms and legs thing, they won't lay off on me lol. I will always rep Mario in this game, tho.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Te

Thanks for the vid, Gallo! If you find any more lying around you should upload em, they might be of help!

On an unrelated note, I'm having trouble convincing a few people who are bothering me about my usage of Mario. They keep bothering me about how he needs a nerf or something, and despite me bringing up the whole stubby arms and legs thing, they won't lay off on me lol. I will always rep Mario in this game, tho.

Tell them, "20xx *****"

 

[Narsic]

Hey guys, PM scrub here just trying to get my foot in the door with Mario against all my friends who are significantly better than I.
My main issue is G&W against Mario, I have such a hard time against this character. I went to a local tourney and played Dakpo and he mentioned that Gallo beat him at APEX, and seeing as Gallo posts here, naturally I wanted to know if I could get some help here? Please, I have nightmares against this 2D maniac.

 

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

I'm pretty new to Mario but I did manage to get some vids recorded at a recent tournament:

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/b/500115474

I've got 3 games in a row here, starting at about 25 minutes. First vs. a Pika/Charizard, then an Ike, then a MK. Quality is pretty bad but you can still mostly see what's going on.

I have some experience vs. Pikachu and Zard, but in the other two matches I was mostly making stuff up as I go along. Apparently my instinct is to go for full jump fair (rather than short hop) after a dthrow which cost me some important kills.

Other than "recover better", "stop using so much dair", and "start using dtilt" any advice? I think I need to spend more time throwing pills spacing bairs rather than constantly applying shield pressure with dairs, seems much safer that way.

 

[Gallo69]

Hey guys, PM scrub here just trying to get my foot in the door with Mario against all my friends who are significantly better than I.
My main issue is G&W against Mario, I have such a hard time against this character. I went to a local tourney and played Dakpo and he mentioned that Gallo beat him at APEX, and seeing as Gallo posts here, naturally I wanted to know if I could get some help here? Please, I have nightmares against this 2D maniac.

Hey, welcome to the PM family and the Mario brotherhood =)
The way I play the G&W MU is extremely aggressive. G&W has terrible defensive options outside of upB OoS and you can easily punish that if you're spacing properly. Chase him when he's on the ground, but don't chase him in the air. He can beat out your upwards aerials with his downwards. Use fireballs to cover approaches because even if he does take out the bucket you can get to him fast enough to land a punish. Also, I think FD and PS2 are Mario's best starter stage options in the MU from what I've experienced.
Anything else specific that you have trouble with in the MU?

 

[Gallo69]

Which moves can't be cc? And how high on avg should I expect cc to work?

Really just smash attacks tornado if they do it properly... Also make sure you CC all the hits of dair because that can catch you off guard. You can CC his moves up to crazy high percents. I'm not sure exactly but I think it's up to 80s or higher even.

 

[Narsic]

Hey, welcome to the PM family and the Mario brotherhood =)
The way I play the G&W MU is extremely aggressive. G&W has terrible defensive options outside of upB OoS and you can easily punish that if you're spacing properly. Chase him when he's on the ground, but don't chase him in the air. He can beat out your upwards aerials with his downwards. Use fireballs to cover approaches because even if he does take out the bucket you can get to him fast enough to land a punish. Also, I think FD and PS2 are Mario's best starter stage options in the MU from what I've experienced.
Anything else specific that you have trouble with in the MU?

Thank you so much
The biggest issue I have is probably my use of fireballs against him, probably just the habit I have of throwing them out randomly when I'm thinking of what to do next. I also hate when he CC's into d tilt. If I try any jab shenanigans he just says "nope" really easily.
The local player I fight is really good at reading my approach options, SH nair, SH dair, and dash attack are the only three I use on a regular basis, I'm sure there are plenty of other options, could you recommend me a few?

 

[Gallo69]

Well thinking back to my dakpo set, I approached with a fireball a lot to cover me. I think I used a lot of full hop dair baits and then came down with a different aerial. I barely ever use dash attack, I think it is too high risk low reward with the vulnerable position you leave yourself in.

Here are the only recorded tourney sets i had at apex if anyone is interested...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8NIHYDfV_s - Vs Leffen (ZSS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLJhKC0svEM - Vs Vist (Luigi)

Sorry I choked so hard in the Leffen set. DEFINITELY DON'T try to learn from anything I did in that 2nd match, it was just full of awful Mario play lol.

 

[Mr.Random]

Mario is garbage.....(wait for it)

 

[Narsic]

All right I'll keep that in mind, thanks Gallo.

I wish I could record and post matches to get some critique. Just wondering how you link so many U-airs together, I can never do that no matter how hard I try.

 

[MrM]

Well thinking back to my dakpo set, I approached with a fireball a lot to cover me. I think I used a lot of full hop dair baits and then came down with a different aerial. I barely ever use dash attack, I think it is too high risk low reward with the vulnerable position you leave yourself in.

Here are the only recorded tourney sets i had at apex if anyone is interested...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8NIHYDfV_s - Vs Leffen (ZSS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLJhKC0svEM - Vs Vist (Luigi)

Sorry I choked so hard in the Leffen set. DEFINITELY DON'T try to learn from anything I did in that 2nd match, it was just full of awful Mario play lol.

yooooooo got me hype lol wont judge the leffen game but you gotta ditto with me when i get a new wii man do u still go to dbdi or u off that

 

[MVP]

can you up-b cancel like in melee?

 

[uCooL]

can you up-b cancel like in melee?

No, Mario is too scared to try that as of 3.02.

 

[Stryker]

Well thinking back to my dakpo set, I approached with a fireball a lot to cover me. I think I used a lot of full hop dair baits and then came down with a different aerial. I barely ever use dash attack, I think it is too high risk low reward with the vulnerable position you leave yourself in.

Here are the only recorded tourney sets i had at apex if anyone is interested...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8NIHYDfV_s - Vs Leffen (ZSS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLJhKC0svEM - Vs Vist (Luigi)

Sorry I choked so hard in the Leffen set. DEFINITELY DON'T try to learn from anything I did in that 2nd match, it was just full of awful Mario play lol.

My main training partner has started maining ZSS, so I was hoping to get some quick input here

You can just hop down onto the ledge when they are trying to tether, and that stops them right? It hasn't been working for me, I think my timings off though. Do you need to be in your invincibility frames when they try to tether?
I've taken to running off the ledge and Down Special-ing so that if she tries to zip to the ledge, and she gets hit and falls, but damn Zamus zips up quick >.<

Also, my training partner relies heavily on her forward and up smash quite heavily, whats the best way to punish this? My problem is the forward smash puts me too far back to Shield-grab punish. Should I like... Block the attack-wavedash towards-then grab?I can totally feel the stubby little limbs that mario has in this matchup

 

[GeZ]

My main training partner has started maining ZSS, so I was hoping to get some quick input here

You can just hop down onto the ledge when they are trying to tether, and that stops them right? It hasn't been working for me, I think my timings off though. Do you need to be in your invincibility frames when they try to tether?
I've taken to running off the ledge and Down Special-ing so that if she tries to zip to the ledge, and she gets hit and falls, but damn Zamus zips up quick >.<

Also, my training partner relies heavily on her forward and up smash quite heavily, whats the best way to punish this? My problem is the forward smash puts me too far back to Shield-grab punish. Should I like... Block the attack-wavedash towards-then grab?I can totally feel the stubby little limbs that mario has in this matchup

The best way to ledgeguard tether characters is to hang on to the ledge when they tether. When they pull themselves up, just hop up from the ledge and clock them with an aerial. And yes, to punish Fsmash just WD forward after it hits your shield and then grab or Fsmash/ Dsmash/ anything really.

 

[Gallo69]

yooooooo got me hype lol wont judge the leffen game but you gotta ditto with me when i get a new wii man do u still go to dbdi or u off that

I haven't tried wifi in forever. DBDI was awesome even though wifi and lag were so awful lol.

With most tethers i try catching them by throwing out a back air. I don't think Mario along with most characters can react fast enough to do the jump up > aerial thing. I might just be too slow but that rarely works for me.

 

[Stryker]

I haven't tried wifi in forever. DBDI was awesome even though wifi and lag were so awful lol.

With most tethers i try catching them by throwing out a back air. I don't think Mario along with most characters can react fast enough to do the jump up > aerial thing. I might just be too slow but that rarely works for me.

This thread and the MU thread are kinda cross contaminated. Here you are lovely mario mains

a) Grab ledge
b) If you predict an instant Up-B, press away from the stage and put your Nair out.
c) Hope for a missed tech on a stage spike.
d) Do not fast-fall the nair.

Mario and Link have an easier time guarding tethers than most.

 

[GeZ]

I haven't tried wifi in forever. DBDI was awesome even though wifi and lag were so awful lol.

With most tethers i try catching them by throwing out a back air. I don't think Mario along with most characters can react fast enough to do the jump up > aerial thing. I might just be too slow but that rarely works for me.

It's not too tough. Mario's got ample time to SH up from the ledge and throw out really anything but a forward air. You could also waveland and go for a smash.

This thread and the MU thread are kinda cross contaminated. Here you are lovely mario mains

That's basically it, though if they can consistently wall tech and get back to the stage from that, SH'ing up from the ledge will cover their options as their's no way they can really mix it up to defend themselves from it.

 

[Gallo69]

Thanks, sounds good. I'll practice punishing tethers whenever I get the chance.

Here's a video of my Mario vs Eli's Ganon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poWtERXY_fk

Also, this past weekend I got 3rd at one of our locals. I lost to Rolex's Snake and Eli's Luigi. Anyone have tips against those characters? I wish they had recorded the matches but NY is pretty bad with recording/streaming/posting tourney results.

 

[GeZ]

Thanks, sounds good. I'll practice punishing tethers whenever I get the chance.

Here's a video of my Mario vs Eli's Ganon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poWtERXY_fk

Also, this past weekend I got 3rd at one of our locals. I lost to Rolex's Snake and Eli's Luigi. Anyone have tips against those characters? I wish they had recorded the matches but NY is pretty bad with recording/streaming/posting tourney results.

Ooh, snake. You can deal with mines with fireballs, and if you get a good feel for when your opponent wants to use tranquilizer you can turn it back on him. He's got good control of space but Mario has really good movement so it comes down how well you can keep up with Snakes positional advantage and how well you press your own advantage.

In regards to your matches, you've got really solid movement and a good fireball game as well as familiarity with the characters tools, which is great! But, your combos are too short, you're a little fuzzy on what moves are good combo starters at what percents, you don't grab as often as you should, you do raw rolls too often, you don't WD OoS enough, and you play very straightforward. The last one isn't necessarily a bad thing but if you don't mix it up your opponent will get a good feel for your play and punish the hell out of you for it. Also, and I know I already said this, but you need longer combos. Mario can pull off some really solid damage and has an incredible pressure game, but I see from you, and really a lot of Mario players here, the want to get your one big hit (usually Dsmash) off of fireball and then go back to working your way in. Use that opportunity to start a combo, use the end of the combo to start pressure, and use the hit confirming off of pressure to kill.

I'll keep updating this as I watch and eventually start writing things to start incorporating. But so far you're one of my favorite Mario's to watch just cause you use all of his tools, which is so rare and fantastic.

Your platform play is really solid, but your punishing off of tech chase is a bit loose. One bigger problem I have with your play is how much time you spend in the air. Everything you're doing up their is good, but it's the nature of the game to limit options when you're feet aren't on the ground, and it seems as a result your grounded movement isn't as impressive as your aerial mobility. When you've got Mario's movement down the little ******* can flow all over the battlefield at whatever pace he likes. Also don't downplay grounded and shorthopped fireball as openers. They let you stay close to the ground, and through that close to your best mobility.