Social The Pichu Social & General Discussion Thread

[Comet7]

first, please stop being obnoxious, unless you want to have the 3 other people in the pichu boards to eventually ignore everything you say. we also have a reasonable amount of experience, so stop asking if we've ever done (insert thing) in the competitive scene.

it still takes a bit for marth to grab us with the factors that i've listed. the only way to would be free is if marth was trying to dash dance somewhere where we wouldn't use f tilt so w/e. it'd only be used to try to break grabs or clank when marth is in our face.

who are you trying to talk about, zelda or marth?

 

[kingPiano]

first, please stop being obnoxious, unless you want to have the 3 other people in the pichu boards to eventually ignore everything you say. we also have a reasonable amount of experience, so stop asking if we've ever done (insert thing) in the competitive scene.

it still takes a bit for marth to grab us with the factors that i've listed. the only way to would be free is if marth was trying to dash dance somewhere where we wouldn't use f tilt so w/e. it'd only be used to try to break grabs or clank when marth is in our face.

who are you trying to talk about, zelda or marth?

I was talking about Zelda initially, then Muted is trying to bring it back to Marth since he's still salty about arguing that grabs can clank with attacks. I've already established that I should ignore most of what he says just based on like 3-4 things he's said that don't make sense and the random insults in other threads.

If you want to ignore me fine by me; it's childish and I don't think you will actually follow through, but go ahead.

I said it earlier and I'll say it again. Let's give advice once we've actually tried and tested what we say and gather enough experience.
There is a compulsion to want to help others and doll out advice prematurely even when the knowledge or experience isn't there. Would you agree that that is not good? Like someone who hasn't ever gone sky diving teaching you how to do it....

I get frustrated when the trust to take someone's advice is no longer consistent or reliable. Especially on these boards where people who can give me advice are far a few between. I'm open to taking your advice and maybe even Muted (if he actually says something that works for me in future matches) But as you just said you played Zelda once and it was a friendly, and you're arguing with me and agreeing with Muted based on that....getting caught up in the moment and the need to team up against me it seems :/

At any rate we are currently just in disagreement over whether Zelda is an easy matchup or not for Pichu. I think she is, you both think she isn't. No big deal just a difference of opinions. The smash wikis and other boards seem to agree that Zelda is one of Pichu's easiest matchups, but that's not the be-all-end-all I know.

 

[Comet7]

i'd disagree with you if muted wasn't doing it lol. you also need to translate what muted says a lot of the time.

i don't need to play against zelda too much to get a decent amount of knowledge on her. i know all the frame data and have seen the best zelda players in action so i know her general game plan and a lot of what she can actually do, and can make some educated guesses based on that as to what else she might do. can she double back air from a short hop? yes. is bair good on shield? yes. can she wall you out with fair? yes. is down smash a good poking tool in neutral for her? yes. i'm not an expert on her by any means, but i've done a fair share of reading on a lot of the characters and if the need to do more research ever presents itself, i'll do more research.

ok i'll try to look at it more from a neutral stance. zelda in neutral threatens pichu with kicks if pichu approaches or cc down smash for low percent nair or as a general poking tool for miscellaneous stuff. pichu would want to dash dance and look for an opening like the marth mu except with more freedom. the big problem here is that it seems like a rock paper scissors for everything, but zelda would generally benefit more because we die much faster than her.

 

[the muted smasher]

I have a few really meh zedla players at locals but I've played vs lake why I say what I say. I have a lot of extreme views for an extreme character, like I swear luigi is worse than ics for pichu.

But that's a different can of worms.

I was simply saying I went to test f tilt vs grab today and marth loses or pichu ends up being to low however I didn't have the resources of another player to check dash grabs.

No f tilt beats grab soundly

 

[kingPiano]

i'm not even going to humor it anymore Muted...

i'd disagree with you if muted wasn't doing it lol. you also need to translate what muted says a lot of the time.

i don't need to play against zelda too much to get a decent amount of knowledge on her. i know all the frame data and have seen the best zelda players in action so i know her general game plan and a lot of what she can actually do, and can make some educated guesses based on that as to what else she might do. can she double back air from a short hop? yes. is bair good on shield? yes. can she wall you out with fair? yes. is down smash a good poking tool in neutral for her? yes. i'm not an expert on her by any means, but i've done a fair share of reading on a lot of the characters and if the need to do more research ever presents itself, i'll do more research.

Show me some vids of a great Zelda and Pichu player, with practically even skill. Where are you pulling from?

You won't understand truly how this match up is until you are a Zelda and you try and play a good Pichu. You'll want to just give up, it's like an Hippo trying to swat a mosquito that keeps landing on it to poke it. You'll find that landing the sweet spot of the kicks is near impossible even when Pichu's just stand there doing nothing. Same with grabs they often whiff cause Zelda's HB on the grab is one of the highest. It's not a pleasant matchup for Zelda (it's as pleasant as ICs to Pichu). She can dominate tall, large, and slow characters very easily but she has serious issues with anyone faster than her.

Anyways try WD back Up smash I guarantee you'll get some kills and some "WTF just happened" faces from your opponents.

 

[Comet7]

you and i both know that there aren't any vids on youtube with a relevant pichu and zelda player.

if pichus just stand there and don't do anything, i don't think the zelda will care too much. i'd agree with it more, but it also only takes a few kicks to kill pichu unless we're on dreamland or something. the big issue seems to be that zelda can just throw out kicks to wall us out and it's decently safe with down smash also being at her disposal unless we're really careful or something.

i prefer double perfect agility from the top platform on battlefield to up smash for WTF expression actually. i'll try it out sometime though.

here's how f tilt works in a situation that is entirely plausible, if that's what's bugging you. we do a late nair on shield, and now are either at +1 or even frame advantage. from here...

Spoiler

frame 1: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 2: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 3: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 4: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 5: pichu's f tilt hitbox is out, marth is still in grab startup so he doesn't have grab armor and is hit

if you're thinking about u tilt instead, pichu will have to wait two more frames and then you'd better hope that your opponent was slower with the grab, or else grab armor will go through the u tilt if it even connects (it might not even connect on frame 7 because the hitbox is behind him during that time)

up tilt on frame 7:

http://imgur.com/OsPxkfm

just did some testing with the data on youtube and the hitbox is in front of him on frame 11

 

[kingPiano]

you and i both know that there aren't any vids on youtube with a relevant pichu and zelda player.

if pichus just stand there and don't do anything, i don't think the zelda will care too much. i'd agree with it more, but it also only takes a few kicks to kill pichu unless we're on dreamland or something. the big issue seems to be that zelda can just throw out kicks to wall us out and it's decently safe with down smash also being at her disposal unless we're really careful or something.

i prefer double perfect agility from the top platform on battlefield to up smash for WTF expression actually. i'll try it out sometime though.

here's how f tilt works in a situation that is entirely plausible, if that's what's bugging you. we do a late nair on shield, and now are either at +1 or even frame advantage. from here...

Spoiler

frame 1: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 2: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 3: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 4: pichu is in f tilt startup, marth is in grab startup
frame 5: pichu's f tilt hitbox is out, marth is still in grab startup so he doesn't have grab armor and is hit

if you're thinking about u tilt instead, pichu will have to wait two more frames and then you'd better hope that your opponent was slower with the grab, or else grab armor will go through the u tilt if it even connects (it might not even connect on frame 7 because the hitbox is behind him during that time)

up tilt on frame 7:

http://imgur.com/OsPxkfm

just did some testing with the data on youtube and the hitbox is in front of him on frame 11

I'm not even going to talk about it anymore after this. It's a futile as arguing about 2 frames between fox's and pichu's up smash. As you said yourself about the 15 frames of long *** lag on f tilt's end " who cares humans can't react that fast." guess that only applies to my opinions about frame data and never yours :/

f tilt has much less range, and in practical use it doesn't beat Marth's grab range you have to be too close. If I land from a nair and notice I'm too far away for a grab I can u tilt and start a juggle combo. Pichu's f-tilt wouldn't reach in that scenario since it's range is actually shorter than Pichu's grab range. I don't care about frame data when I'm playing a match with a Human, I find out what works and capitalize. Often I find many things contradict the data when actually playing, I'm sure you do too.

 

[the muted smasher]

Doesn't matter I tested for 5 minutes go eat a banana bug. There isn't a debate if I f tilt and marth grabs he loses.

Go get a gift or video I'm done with this non sense

 

[Comet7]

i was thinking of if pichu nairs, lands in front of marth on his shield, and can pretty much kiss marth if he wanted to, which is something that can definitely happen in gameplay. i don't even know if it would be possible for marth to not be in f tilt range... this is also different because we know that we can f tilt and get the timing down for f tilting immediately after nair cooldown ends, but they can also probably react to this and try to shield grab, but it doesn't matter because this wins. if i use f tilt in neutral (which is a bad idea) it probably goes to reaction time since we definitely can get punished, but can also get away with it if the opponent is slow. the main difference is that in the situation on shield i described, we both know exactly what to do. there are bigger variables in the neutral situation.

well yeah but you're saying our uses for f tilt are fraudulent, but i'm just saying that they aren't. if i'm doing something like lazy tech chasing if i know they're going to tech in a lot, i can just stand there and do whatever i want to next instead of covering the options that may make me mess up if i'm not frame perfect, but i personally elect to do as much as possible with pichu so i can hopefully take the character his maximum potential.

holy crap i sound like a spacie main. it's nice that we're getting some discussion here though since not having any is worse, and this is somewhat enlightening.

 

[kingPiano]

Doesn't matter I tested for 5 minutes go eat a banana bug. There isn't a debate if I f tilt and marth grabs he loses.

Go get a gift or video I'm done with this non sense

Pop quiz, does Marth:
A) Have a sword
B) Shoot fireballs

no using the smash wiki to look up the answer

 

[Comet7]

so is it logical for me to say peach's jab is bad and can never be used if it has 15 frames of lag.

 

[kingPiano]

so is it logical for me to say peach's jab is bad and can never be used if it has 15 frames of lag.

Logic seems to be a problem for you. You are always comparing two completely different moves, like when you were trying to compare Fox's Shine to Pichu's F-Tilt.....

Peach's slap is out on frame 2, it has two times the range as Ftilt, the second slap starts as early as frame 10 (only 9-10 frames of downtime between) and hits just as fast and has more range.

You also don't see many pros ever use peaches jab since there are much better options such as her L cancelled nair and fair when have less end lag and more hit box time and range (float cancelled Fair only has 4 frames of lag, making it amazing and often used). Her down smash is also much safer than jab since it has multiple hits and covers rolls and WD attempts and has about the same or less combined cooldown time.

 

[Comet7]

they can be used the same way, which is to put down grab attempts (the resulting positions are different but they're both good and going further about that would be a waste of time).

the shine example was to show you that doing anything can get you punished.

well yeah since the purpose i've been trying to focus on is stuffing shield grab attempts which only work well if you know the opponent is going to grab OoS and down smash usually works better, but that's an amazing move in general so using it in an example like this would be foolish.

also float cancel aerials are better with peach.

 

[kingPiano]

Down smash is alright, but it's range makes it only good for only limited situation uses like the one you were saying. It can fling floaties off into the stratospehere which is funny to watch. If it had D-tilts awesome range on both sides it would be so much more useful. The invincibility on it is also not that impressive or noticeable.

It's a random thought but man if Pichu had Luigi's wave-dash.....top tier. No, GOD tier.

 

[Comet7]

i was talking about peach's down smash

my changelist for pichu would be...

Spoiler

a bit more range on up tilt #PM pikachu
pikachu's 64 up b with the perfect agility properties and no hitbox
reduced endlag on down throw to help with tech chases and guaranteed followups against more characters
less startup and end lag on f smash and one hit like pika's
less end lag on down smash
slightly less startup on up smash and slightly reduced end lag. jolt would also last for 120 frames instead of 99. also have it come out at frame 12 for combo potential at high percents and lower percents against floaties like samus for an option.
lots of lag reduced from thunder jolt, enough to be able to waveland from it and do other stuff
autocanceling jolt
pika's thunder
slightly bigger hitbox on nair
good tech rolls
slightly faster run speed
slightly better wavedash

 

[kingPiano]

i was talking about peach's down smash

my changelist for pichu would be...

Spoiler

a bit more range on up tilt #PM pikachu
pikachu's 64 up b with the perfect agility properties and no hitbox
reduced endlag on down throw to help with tech chases and guaranteed followups against more characters
less startup and end lag on f smash and one hit like pika's
less end lag on down smash
slightly less startup on up smash and slightly reduced end lag. jolt would also last for 120 frames instead of 99. also have it come out at frame 12 for combo potential at high percents and lower percents against floaties like samus for an option.
lots of lag reduced from thunder jolt, enough to be able to waveland from it and do other stuff
autocanceling jolt
pika's thunder
slightly bigger hitbox on nair
good tech rolls
slightly faster run speed
slightly better wavedash

Yea that seems like what DeRF was saying he wanted changed too.

Honestly I like what they did with him in SD remix, beefed up all his moves (he's mid-high tier in that version). I'm okay with him hurting himself, but because he hurts himself all his moves should do 1.5x damage and knockback and his agility should have a hit box the entire time. He should also have a move where he can supercharge his electrical moves (AKA Nasty Plot move from Pokemon games)

 

[the muted smasher]

Doesn't matter I tested for 5 minutes go eat a banana bug. There isn't a debate if I f tilt and marth grabs he loses.

Go get a gift or video I'm done with this non sense

/quote.

SD remix I preffer watch simply because of his stupid nair.

Sadly they can no change some of my most pressing issues with pichu like his sweet spot from up-b they can't patch yet.


I really am not a fan of the mindset of buff speed=balance which they seemed to done in many Cases. I really do like the slow paced spacing game of some people and adding speed is meh.

Like I would be Be a fan of making pichu's d-smash like links f smash where he has a +1 for his 2nd hit on shield so if they knew that charge could be a mix up and in pichu, s case which way to di from d smash could really be tricky if You don't always do both hits.

 

[DerfMidWest]

you guys posted a lot of things and I didn't read any of them.
But I think zelda craps on pichu if she's patient enough.

 

[kingPiano]

If Zelda is patient enough she can politely meet my aggro Pichu (which will take all of 0.134 seconds) who will proceed to poop and pee all over her with a blur of nairs and up smashes followed by a back throw off stage intercept. If she's lucky enough she will then farore's wind right into my awaiting fully charged up smash of cuteness followed up with a seizure taunt. My pichu has a nickname for Zeldas - Slowhoe - in memory of his favorite pokemon friend, RIP in peace Eggbert the Slowbro.

 

[Comet7]

that sounds like a good way to get kicked since that's what zelda wants you to do.

 

[kingPiano]

that sounds like a good way to get kicked since that's what zelda wants you to do.

Again you've played Zelda once and it was a friendly as you said. So you can have all the theories in the world you want or run the matchup in your imagination 1000 times if you'd like.

The time it takes for Zeldas to react with her floaty slow jump and then to hit a small flying Pichu with a sweet-spot kick is really tough.

It's like a fly deciding to land on me you'd say "sounds like a really good way to get swatted", but you can't react fast enough to catch it let alone kill it. Speed overwhelms Zelda players, it sounds like DeRF also hasn't had much experience against a Zelda with Pichu.

It's funny to me that you guys are so scared of her and as Pichu player you are going to "respect" her one move that can get you. In words of DeRF she's "ezpz" you've got more options that she does on you in this matchup (she's one of the only easy matchups we have).

 

[the muted smasher]

She is our worst low tier match-up I've warned local players about it for low tier events then they come back like wtf can You even do? Just camp her long and hard. I nearly advice them to switch. She is basically proactive and either is waiting to kick, cc or dash attack which is surprisingly quick and good at eating empties at times.

Only other bad low tier match-up might be link. I used to say that is one of our few winning match-ups but stro pooped on me, but if I was more proactive like I am as ics I mightve been able to stop him from setting up and then it would've been fine.

But i went more or else even as ics and he's really smart and was a better player at the time.



Derf You likly can play stro more often than I can, I want Your input. He 3 stocked me a few times and as ics I think I mightve had a few more wins. But i feel my pichu will never be as good as it was in fc : / I used to be so much better I mastered nair cross-ups to shwl upairs. I'm just better less techincal : ( and that combo doesn't work

 

[kingPiano]

She is our worst low tier match-up I've warned local players about it for low tier events then they come back like wtf can You even do? Just camp her long and hard. I nearly advice them to switch. She is basically proactive and either is waiting to kick, cc or dash attack which is surprisingly quick and good at eating empties at times.

Only other bad low tier match-up might be link. I used to say that is one of our few winning match-ups but stro pooped on me, but if I was more proactive like I am as ics I mightve been able to stop him from setting up and then it would've been fine.

But i went more or else even as ics and he's really smart and was a better player at the time.



Derf You likly can play stro more often than I can, I want Your input. He 3 stocked me a few times and as ics I think I mightve had a few more wins. But i feel my pichu will never be as good as it was in fc : / I used to be so much better I mastered nair cross-ups to shwl upairs. I'm just better less techincal : ( and that combo doesn't work

Zelda is a very rarely mained character. Why? because she's terrible against skilled players who have actually played as her and know exactly what to expect. She's one of the most limited and slowest characters in the game. There are more mains of characters below her on the tier list for a reason (G&W, Bowser, Ness, Mewtwo), they are better and she is worse.

I actually agree with M2K she is one of the most overrated characters in the game and she should be lower than all I just mentioned.

 

[Comet7]

i think he meant zelda is the hardest matchup for pichu of all the low tiers. honestly i have to disagree and say yoshi would be our hardest even though i haven't played one. dealing with his double jump and eggs and everything seems...hard. not spacie hard, but marth hard. at least he doesn't have any real options out of shield...but i don't want to think about it anymore.

i also think kirby would win against us simply because of his down throw being stupid against our crappy techs, and our neutral seems like it would be even and kirby might not be able to grab pichu that easily... i've never faced a kirby before, just trying to get some discussion for whatever reason.

 

[kingPiano]

i think he meant zelda is the hardest matchup for pichu of all the low tiers. honestly i have to disagree and say yoshi would be our hardest even though i haven't played one. dealing with his double jump and eggs and everything seems...hard. not spacie hard, but marth hard. at least he doesn't have any real options out of shield...but i don't want to think about it anymore.

i also think kirby would win against us simply because of his down throw being stupid against our crappy techs, and our neutral seems like it would be even and kirby might not be able to grab pichu that easily... i've never faced a kirby before, just trying to get some discussion for whatever reason.

I've never faced a good Kirby either, but I'd imagine it would be a bit in Pichu's favor. Kirby's got moves that can out range Pichu, but he's just so slow and his grab game is bad compared to Pichu (you can actually wiggle out of his grab before he throws you). One of Kirby's best tools (his swallow) is practically useless against Pichu since Pichu can wall jump and double agility from anywhere inside a stage's box. Getting back to the stage Kirby's up b can be easily ledgeguarded too by Pichu.

I think Kirby's is better in general against other characters though because of his range and the ability to swallocide and kirbycide.

 

[Comet7]

you're underestimating kirby a bit. unless i'm missing something, kirby's down throw can't be escaped by pichu like marth, and he's not going to be using back or front throw much (and up throw is pretty much irrelevant here)... i'd also be worried about him bairing us in the middle of quick attack. he's also not too slow, and can throw out up tilts, bair, forward tilt, and down tilt to wall us out a bit like jigglypuff except worse and a bit more ground based. he is definitely a bit sluggish compared to us and he doesn't really have options out of shield which could probably be abused.

swallowcide is a gimmick. edit: actually there's the marth killer to kirbycide which looks legitimate against marth but pretty much everyone else has the tools to kill marth after he would up b like he would in that situation.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm just gonna talk about zelda real quick because I have a lot of experience in Pichu/Zelda for some reason.
She drops a fat **** all over Pichu.
Pichu's approach is not that great against zelda because she can just challenge it with a kill move that comes out super fast.
Like you can straight react to Pichu jumping and dash attack it or jump back and bair.
It's very hard for Pichu to find holes in Zelda's defensive play in order to get in (because believe it or not, Pichu can't just run in at things whenever he wants).
So basically you're forced to play way more defensive, but Pichu isn't the best at just straight camping people out.
The matchup is ridiculously difficult if you don't have the lead.

 

[kingPiano]

I'm just gonna talk about zelda real quick because I have a lot of experience in Pichu/Zelda for some reason.
She drops a fat **** all over Pichu.
Pichu's approach is not that great against zelda because she can just challenge it with a kill move that comes out super fast.
Like you can straight react to Pichu jumping and dash attack it or jump back and bair.
It's very hard for Pichu to find holes in Zelda's defensive play in order to get in (because believe it or not, Pichu can't just run in at things whenever he wants).
So basically you're forced to play way more defensive, but Pichu isn't the best at just straight camping people out.
The matchup is ridiculously difficult if you don't have the lead.

"So basically you're forced to play way more defensive, but Pichu isn't the best at just straight camping people out."

Wut?!
See this makes no sense to me.

You are Pichu you a f***ing fast in the air and on ground. You can literally hit a Zelda player once and then just evade them the entire 8 minutes if you wanted to. You are so much more agile than she is, dashing SH then wavedash back, full hop to double jump back, fast falls, your roll speed alone outclasses any movement option Zelda has to keep up with you. You could literally just do lagless agilities around her and maybe hit her every minute to offset the damage deficit. You have like 1000% more mindgames and you can pretty much be anywhere at anytime on a stage.

You can win entire sets off Zelda by just dash hopping in > jolt > grab while they shield, with the occasional mix up (if they Nayru's Love then just double jump, fast fall and grab them out of end lag). Or doing a bunch of empty jumps and then going in and air dodging when she throws out a kick land and grab her out of the air (this is very possible and easy to do)

As a Zelda player you should be scared of Pichu cause in comparison it's like Zelda is moving in slow motion.

 

[Comet7]

what are you going to do with pichu to camp zelda, spam jolts? go ahead, but you're just going to die to a kick sooner. and yes we are small but let's assume that the zelda player knows how to space kicks (so basically all zelda players). i wouldn't be surprised if she could even go for nayru's safely and hit you with your own jolt when you're in lag.

let's think of it this way: zelda can space us out with kicks like jigglypuff does, except getting hit with one is like a knee. if you try to camp her out and just dance in the stage, she'll probably get several opportunities to kick you (which is very bad).

about jolt:

pikachu can in fact do the same thing, except better. approaching with jolt can work if your opponent shields, but isn't good otherwise.

to elaborate on jolt approach:

1. you jump and jolt
2. you fall in front of your opponent
3. your opponent f smashes through your jolt and pichu cries

ok grabbing her like that actually sounds reasonable, though still risky but not as bad as the other stuff and as pichu players we've signed up for risky stuff anyway.

 

[kingPiano]

what are you going to do with pichu to camp zelda, spam jolts? go ahead, but you're just going to die to a kick sooner. and yes we are small but let's assume that the zelda player knows how to space kicks (so basically all zelda players). i wouldn't be surprised if she could even go for nayru's safely and hit you with your own jolt when you're in lag.

let's think of it this way: zelda can space us out with kicks like jigglypuff does, except getting hit with one is like a knee. if you try to camp her out and just dance in the stage, she'll probably get several opportunities to kick you (which is very bad).

about jolt:


ok grabbing her like that actually sounds reasonable, though still risky but not as bad as the other stuff and as pichu players we've signed up for risky stuff anyway.

Honestly there really is no point in talking about this anymore. You have this pre-conceived notion that she is so difficult, I'm not going to bother trying to talk you out of it.

I'll just say this:
Once she jumps she has VERY limited options. She can't change her direction, trajectory or speed in any really profound way on land or in the air (This is the complete opposite of Pichu). She's very predictable and easy to tech chase. On reaction her kick actually takes 15-18 frames to get the point where it can strike you (she has to SH first, not mention the 10+ frames it takes for a person to react).

If your fear of Zelda's kicks were to be translated to every other character (especially Marth or Falcon) you should just give up now since it seems every single other character can just wall you out with 1 or 2 moves and the slowest of movement.

 

[the muted smasher]

Honestly zedla isn't terrible her only impossible match-ups are falcon and sheik at high level play (You can bop any falcon not placing basically)

She has real solid options and nearly goes even with ics and falco and if someone really trys to time her out well sheik is still an option.

She's a low tier puff with an amazing cc.

Really go ask zedla players also. M2k bases his thoughts on oh I can just time ____________ oh and camp them to death, he really overalls pichu who is amazing but only if You play perfectly can You do anything solid.

Run away Time-outs are soft banned in melee no matter what they tell You it is. Why we don't see falcos platform camping ...

 

[DerfMidWest]

I don't think you understand how over rated agility **** actually is. Like sure you have 1 frame of land lag, but that **** is not actually fast. I had to have that beaten into my skull when I was starting out and learned all the technical pichu stuff. It has definite uses, but it's not something you can just throw around.

Pichu is definitely super agile, but the problems you run into are that he does not have a way to cover a lot of space quickly. His dd and wd (and wavelands) are very small. His run speed is also not actually as fast as it seems. He's really fast in the air, but your moves don't have a lot of range, so zelda can just out-space you.

Note that I disagree with the notion of zelda being a good character, she's pretty garbo and I think she gets obliterated by every high tier if they actually think about the matchup instead of just trying to run in at her (ICs included). But she's incredibly solid against certain types of characters (i.e. Pichu/Pikachu).

Also run away time-outs are not actually banned what are you even talking about Anthony. What's banned are things like stalling under a stage in a position where your opponent literally is incapable of reaching or freezing someone so that they aren't even capable of preventing a time-out. You can still stall with things like ledgestalls and platform camping and all that ****.
The reason you don't see more falco players platform camping is because it's kind of difficult and falco players are bad and impatient.

anyway, back to zelda, pianoman, you are welcome to prove me wrong by actually achieving success in the matchup against relevant zeldas (all 4 of them) and showing us oldschoolers how it's done, but until then, I don't see anything that backs up what you are saying.

I have achieved some success via platform camping on battlefield and occasionally on dreamland, but Pichu's pichu's ability to actually platform camp is a little iffy. I don't think it's Pichu's most difficult matchup, but it's pretty horrendous. Doable, but not good. Probably 70-30-ish.

 

[kingPiano]

Ok so Derf you are in a particular spot that puts you in proximity to VaNz, now his Zelda I don't think I could beat. You probably face the most difficult Zelda main possible, he plays aggressively and seems spontaneous. It's like us all saying oh Bowser is easy for Pichu and then you living next door to DJ Nintendo and getting rekt daily, so you might think it's an impossible matchup. VaNz skill just might be higher than yours with his character.

Cosmo's Zelda I'm fairly sure I could beat, but would probably lose more
The Lake's Zelda I could beat
Both I don't expect to be landslide, but close in stocks


Now also you have to think about how rarely a Zelda main shows up in tournaments, and how it's even more rare to have Pichu - Zelda matchup. I've seen more Kirby's, more Bowser's and more Ness's. Zelda's matchup not even worth putting that much time in nor are you often afforded the chance to face good Zeldas.

I've only faced 5 Zeldas, 3 were bad and 2 were on Lake's/Cosmo's level (I saw them beat high tiers from players that placed well)
I've been able to beat all of them without much difficulty.

Based purely on it being a double blind (neither player having exp with the matchup) I think Pichu strongly has the advantage because they just don't expect the speed and rate at which aerials can be spammed, the constant pressure and edgeguarding, and the great grab game. People just think, oh it's Pichu that joke character. Meanwhile Zeldas are pretty damn easy to read and you know the moves and set ups they are going for if you've ever played with her for even an hour. IMO Pichu takes more time to figure out the moves and combinations that are deadly, unlike Zelda "oh lightning kick....that's the move I will use a lot."

 

[the muted smasher]

Comso has beaten some of the best people in the midwest in tournament like kels. So I think You have more than a bold statement there.

But really I think one of pichu, s greatest weaknesses is he is pretty predictable and we're forced to mix-up far more than someone like marth or falco when approaching and it's pushed even further because we have to approach more often because we get less for when we do approach correctly.

Then in match-ups like peach or samus they live for a grip and they have the luxury or time to read us where when we get hit you eat 1/3 a stock min.

Zedla also isn't punished and she gets the time edge in respect of neutral game vs punishment.

Also You are under this idea zedla has to jump when her dash attack is solid for stuffing out approaches as well

 

[gmBottles]

I'm sure people have asked this here before, but why do you guys pick Pichu over Pikachu? I'm pretty interested in knowing why. I never really liked the fact that Pichu can hurt himself, but he seems fun enough. I'm not trying to make it a tier thing, I mean I play Bowser, so I can't really talk.

 

[kingPiano]

I'm sure people have asked this here before, but why do you guys pick Pichu over Pikachu? I'm pretty interested in knowing why. I never really liked the fact that Pichu can hurt himself, but he seems fun enough. I'm not trying to make it a tier thing, I mean I play Bowser, so I can't really talk.

There's a whole thread about it (I'm sure you've read it already)

Pichu has faster aerials and lower cooldown (by a bit), hitboxes are also more generous compared to his hurtboxes
His grab game and range is much better
Much better shield
Faster and longer roll
he can edgeguard in more creative ways (Pikachu has more straightfoward easy ways to edgeguard)
His f-smash has less utility but has so much knockback on the last hit it can end spacies at very low percentages at the edge (has about 300-400% more knockback on a 0% character)
He can duck more grabs and moves from taller characters, his tail hitbox is MUCH smaller (makes backwards grabs more difficult on him)
Walljump
Pichu is cuter and has better alt costumes
He's got two taunts for maximum disrespect

 

[gmBottles]

There's a whole thread about it (I'm sure you've read it already)

Pichu has faster aerials and lower cooldown (by a bit)
His grab game and range is much better
he can edgeguard in more creative ways (Pikachu has more straightfoward easy ways to edgeguard)
His f-smash has less utility but has so much knockback on the last hit it can end spacies at very low percentages at the edge (has about 300% more knockback on a 0% character)
He can duck more grabs and moves from taller characters, also doesn't have a tail with a hitbox (makes backwards grabs more difficult on him)
Pichu is cuter and has better alt costumes
He's got two taunts for maximum disrespect

My friends and I always joke that because he has a walljump and Pika doesn't that Pichu is top tier.
But I think I kind of understand better, thanks!

 

[kingPiano]

My friends and I always joke that because he has a walljump and Pika doesn't that Pichu is top tier.
But I think I kind of understand better, thanks!

Yea forgot to add his wall jump; can be a life saver on FoD and is great for mix up recovery on every other stage with a wall.
I really like bowser too, a dangerous character but too slow and large in Melee. In PM he rocks!

 

[gmBottles]

Yea forgot to add his wall jump; can be a life saver on FoD and is great for mix up recovery on every other stage with a wall.
I really like bowser too, a dangerous character but too slow and large in Melee. In PM is rocks!

Yeah, I started out only playing him in PM but I fell in love with his character and picked him up in every game.
I actually main Jigglypuff in Melee but I associate myself with Bowser more.

 

[the muted smasher]

Mindset really. My goal is to be small and so in Your face You don't know what to do. I can't do that with pika and he feels clunky to me and has a sinfully small shield.

But the real reasons people play pichu are because they are really depressed and have that tiny guy issue. We'll lie to the end of time about why we really play as pichu. But I'm known for bad sandbagging locally where I'll get 2nd place with ics and another event win 1st match hold a lead in the 2nd match and then lose it forfeit and kill myself 2 times on average vs a roy player who only f-smashes and just play so depressingly bad it's unreal xD

I really love pichu and ics but both are so terrible to main it's honestly self hatred at a point to try to main both xD